Date: Fri, May 22, 2009 11:14 am (answered 25 June 2009)
From: "Celeste N."
Subject: A Word of Thanks for the Enlightenment
Dear Sir,
I could not have found your website at a more convenient time. A few months
ago, I joined an on-line support group to regain some insight for finding
smarter ways of dealing with my alcoholic husband. I joined the health
social network support site
http://www.dailystrength.org
Up until this time, I had always thought of myself as conditionally
co-dependent, e.g. I assumed the role of the bitching, nagging housewife
when my husband's drinking habits became intolerable. As I stated, I was
looking for more clever methods for dealing with him. Instead, however, I
had to learn from other members in the group who either belonged to CoDA
(Co-dependents anonymous) or Alanon (spouses of AA members) that I had
always been a co-dependent person since childhood, and had always had an
abusive personality.
Naturally I found this pronouncement not only presumptuous, but also
offensive. One member encouraged that I even speak about my addict parents,
which really heated my temper because my parents never drank alcohol or took
narcotics. This statement was then excused, because they didn't know my
parents were "dry drunks". At any rate, they were certain that somehow my
parents had something to do with my situation, because otherwise I would
have never married an alcoholic.
The next problem I had with these people was the topic about my "form of
abuse". I kept replying, "I don't get it. He drinks. He's irresponsible. It
makes me angry. Why am I the abusive person?" Then they hinged in about my
addiction of wanting to control him, to which I replied, "I don't want to
control him. I just want to try to reason with him." This reply was "proof
of my addiction to control".
At this point was I becoming more defensive and sarcastic when we approached
the topic, "enabling". I was abusing him, because I was "enabling" him to
drink. This puzzled me, because I was not going to the market and buying him
alcohol at the time. He was obtaining his own supply under my constant
protest. And they replied that simply supporting him was enabling, to which
I had to reply, "Wait a minute! I live in the Federal Republic of Germany.
This country is a social democracy, and we have socialistic laws here, which
means I cannot — as his legal wife — cut him off financially, because then
he would go to the social services, who would immediately get a court order
to dock my wages, which would involve even more expenses.?
Of course, you would have been amused at the array of responses I received —
everything from "*How could you live in such a fucking commi country?*" to "
*Pray to your Higher Power to help you. Let Go and Let God!*"
"Hah!" I thought, "You people and your infinite wisdom!" But since I am a
person who doesn't completely give up, even in hopeless situations, I still
tried to find more practical solutions, but the final straw was the subject
about learning "to let go of your relationships". That was the one I almost
took seriously and almost put me over the edge. I was being cajoled into
believing the only mental way out of the box I found myself in was to
forsake all present and future friendships and romantic relationships. I
don't know how you feel about this subject, but I am a pretty sensitive
person, and the very thought of never having another friend or lover for the
rest of my life was making suicide seem like an attractive alternative.
It was then I found your pages, and suddenly my despair transferred into
scorn and contempt for all those "twelve step friends" with their
confounding answers. Of course it has always been hard for me to "Let Go and
Let God" because I am a practicing heathen, who believes in the dual
male/female nature of an impersonal god. It makes me my own Higher Power by
definition, yet with the twelve steppers, it supposed to be some other
entity other than me. I found that if you spend enough time with the
twelve-step co-dependent support groups, who see relying on friends as a
form of addiction, suddenly you begin to view every single person in the
world as a co-dependent.
Recently in their forum, someone asked them to define what a healthy
relationship is. They were only able to approach this subject using
disclosures, e.g. most of the sentences were worded, "It when you don't do
such and such". Concisely, none of them could tell anyone what a healthy
relationship is, but they could all spot an unhealthy relationship by a
mile. It is rather like a support group where everyone knows what a
cancerous tumour is, but no one has a clue as to what healthy cell tissue
looks like.
Perverse were the forum entries about people who have been members of CoDA
for more than a decade and finally found enough self-confidence (probably
through sponsor encouragement) to attempt dating. After three years dating
the forum participants were still not sure if they were ready to commit, for
fear of a co-dependency relapse — in other words, they were afraid to fall
in love again — something they now regarded as a nasty and abusive
addiction.
Another forum member related that in her CoDA meeting group she was annoyed
about the group leader, who obviously did not take the anonymous concept
seriously. Described as an original control freak, she demanded the names,
addresses and telephone numbers of members (allegedly for emergency purposes
— in case someone decided suicide was an attractive alternative), then
proceeded to terrorise members for "ditching" CoDA meetings in lieu of other
commitments.
After reading your pages, I could then finally be amused by the "Love
Addict" support group — a group of dumped ex-spouses, lovers and friends who
still pined after their lost loves. They were using the twelve step program
to recover from their heartbreaks and "find serenity" again. It was amusing
because the topics all revolved around the topic "she dumped me, and I'll
never get over it". Interesting that not a single person would ever write, "
*Help me, please! I just had a relapse! I found this gorgeous girl who is so
crazy about me that we had the hottest sex I have ever had in my whole life,
and we never got out of bed all weekend!*" Love addicts who use the twelve
steps and make falling in love their "addictive drug of choice" are
essentially begging for the permanent state of unhappiness.
That is hilarious:
"I relapsed. I'm in love again."
Thanks for a good laugh.
I finally found solace in a little pamphlet I found in the bookstore here in
Germany. I took the liberty of translating it and I am passing it along to
you, hoping it might amuse you, if you have the time to read it. It was
written by a university professor of behaviour psychology, and is entitled,
"*How to Really Piss Yourself Off!*" The author maintains that a number of
chronic civilisation maladies, including alcoholism, depression,
fibromyalgia, bipolar syndrome, asthma and high blood pressure are
essentially made evident and become worse because people in today's society
over-do it on stress. He believes alcoholism could be cured through detox,
intense cognitive behaviour therapy and stress management. In 2002 they
opened one such rehabilitation centre in the city of Moenchen-Gladbach,
which does not use any form of twelve step approach, and operates with
about 70-85% success. I must note that this high rate of success is because
the patients have to qualify for this treatment centre. They must be married
or have some form of stable romantic relationship, and they must be employed
at the time they were admitted for treatment. Then they qualify for
treatment for alcohol as a symptom of psychosomatic illness.
In the meantime, I have found an alternative support group to co-dependency
— a group for Highly Sensitive Persons (HSPs), a personality model
originally described by Carl G. Jung. In this support group the tendency
towards shyness is not treated like a "sin" or "abuse", which requires
treatment in the form of twelve steps or a Higher Power. We celebrate the
uniqueness of people rather than berate them for imaginary "self-abuse". We
take moral inventories of all of our good traits we are proud of, and praise
each other and encourage people to make the lists longer.
I had to quit the co-dependency forum, because although the Daily Strength
site requires people to be considerate to other peoples' feelings when they
make statements, this admonishment does not apply for the defenders of the
Disciples of the Twelve Steps. They are naturally allow themselves the
liberty to lambaste anyone who views their system with criticism. Still, the
co-dependents are not a rabid as those in the AA support group. They have a
group for people who are attempting to stay sober without the help of the
twelve steps, and most of the people there who have read your page have been
mobbed away by militant sponsors from the main AA group. I was deleted from
the group for quoting your page with links.
In the meantime, I have been able to find other techniques to reason with my
alcoholic husband, who has decided for himself to stop drinking and become
responsible, find a job, and take part in life — all *without* the help of
twelve steps. I did borrow some of the questioning techniques from Robert
Burney, but I was amused about how he labelled his techniques "letting go of
control and manipulation".
You too would be amused at his statement about "asking a question and
letting go of the outcome". Burney states on his webpage
( http://www.joy2meu.com )
that everyone has a choice when asked a question —
even when a robber sticks a gun in your face and asks "Your money or your
life".
Is he serious? In sales training sessions they call this questioning
technique "choice manipulation", because you ask questions where there is
"only one correct choice". Theoretically you do have a choice, but
practically you don't. So Burney teaches his followers to practice choice
manipulation questioning, but deliberately calls it "letting go of
manipulation and control", and "leaving the outcome up to God".
Yeah! Right! Thomas Hopkins has trained thousands of salespeople in America
to successfully sell everything from peanuts to industrial waste plant
components using the very same "non-manipulation" techniques that Robert
Burney is talking about when he encourages his followers to "let go of the
outcome and leave it up to God".
I now call it "clever manipulation" as opposed to "stupid manipulation".
"Clever manipulation" can lead your addict spouse into believing that
leaving his addiction behind him is a smart choice, while "stupid
manipulation" can lead your addict spouse into more of the same destructive
behaviour that already prevails. My theory about good and bad manipulation
went over like a lead balloon in the co-dependency forum, because
"manipulation" is the nasty "M-word" for the twelve-steppers and thus
"sinful". None of them want to admit that they are being manipulated
everyday of their lives, even when it comes to the sort of laundry detergent
they are purchasing. And not a one of them seems aware of how their own
sponsors manipulate their thinking.
Should you wish to have many of your pages translated into German, I could
help you, as well as promote it. Like many countries the courts give
merciful treatment to DUI offenders in Germany who participate in AA
meetings, which of course don't work, because all of the people who go there
under those circumstances see it as a part of a legal scavenger hunt to get
their driving license back.
Still, things which have a Nazi background are abhorred by the general
public in this country, and I wonder how the German public would react if it
became common public knowledge that the "benevolent" support group AA has
its roots in the Nazi regime. What you have discovered is enough to become
of interest to the German National Constitutional Protection Agency, which
is the responsible government body in the Federal Republic of Germany to
keep Nazi elements and influences out of this country. They already took the
wind out of the sails of Scientology. Maybe it's time they should focus on
the AA.
Many thanks again for your helpful pages.
Kindest regards,
Celeste N.
Hi Celeste,
Thank you for your letter, and thanks for all of the compliments and thanks.
It really brightened my morning.
I'm also glad to hear that you escaped from the madhouse.
Just in case you haven't already found it, I wrote about "codependency" the most in
the file on
Twelve-Step Snake Oil.
"Codependency" is an incredible hoax. Andrew Meacham described codependency
in his book
Selling Serenity as
"invent a non-existent disease, and then charge a fortune to treat it."
And it's really tragic, and also just amazing,
how people can waste so many years of their lives finding fault
with themselves (and with others) just because they love somebody who drinks too much,
or takes too much drugs...
It's enough to drive some people crazy. And it really does.
Those people are crazy.
I found that "How to Really Piss Yourself Off!" booklet very interesting.
I wonder if the author would mind if I posted it on my web site. Can he be contacted?
The idea of mentioning the Nazi connection to the
German National Constitutional Protection Agency
piqued my interest.
Publicizing and emphasizing the Fascist and Nazi sympathies of the Oxford Group
and Moral Re-Armament sounds like a very good strategy. That is little-known
history. It is surprising how Frank Buchman and the American Fascists just disappeared
from the history books. I even studied both American History and the History of Western
Civilization at a university, and I never heard about the popularity of Fascism among
the rich Americans in the 1930s. It was as if it never happened.
Few people realize that the whole theology and philosophy of Alcoholics
Anonymous — and all of the other 12-Step groups — really came
from an American Lutheran minister who
thanked Heaven for giving us Adolf Hitler,
and who praised Heinrich Himmler as "a great lad".
And Frank Buchman wanted all of us to be living under
"God-controlled Fascist dictatorships"
and
"the true dictatorship of the living God".
Yes, that Protection Agency should find that interesting.
And while you are at it, you might also mention the case where the German A.A., with the help of
a legal representative from the New York A.A. headquarters, committed perjury in a German
court to persecute a German A.A. member who was distributing his own translation of the old
out-of-copyright first edition of the "Big Book" Alcoholics Anonymous, in order
for the New York organization to extract more illegal profits from Germany.
See the details
here.
The last I heard about that, the innocent man was fined a huge amount of money,
and had given up in despair.
Your English is excellent, by the way. Would you believe that most of the 12-Steppers
who write to me, almost all of whom supposedly speak English as their native language, appear to be
illiterate when compared to you?
Mein Deutsch ist jetzt schrecklich. Ich habe so viel vergessen.
Ich wohnte in Wiesbaden von 1962 bis
1965 als student, und liebte es, und mein Deutsch var dan viel besser.
Habe ein guten Tag.
== Orange
* orange@orange-papers.info *
* AA and Recovery Cult Debunking *
* http://www.Orange-Papers.org/ *
** "I thank Heaven for a man like Adolf Hitler, who built a
** front line of defense against the anti-Christ of Communism."
** == Dr. Frank Buchman, founder and leader of the
** Oxford Group and Moral Re-Armament, August 26, 1936.
Date: Sat, May 23, 2009 12:13 pm
From: "john w."
Subject: A bunch of lies.
You really are full of resentment and self delusion.
Date: Mon, May 25, 2009 12:27 pm (answered 26 June 2009)
From: "john w."
Subject: I was wrong!
My email the other day entitled "a bunch of lies" was inappropriate. I
apologize for my arrogance. Everyone has a right to their own opinion.
Hi John,
Apology accepted. But I have much more than just opinions — I have facts.
There is a huge difference there. Like Senator Patrick Moynahan said,
"Everybody is entitled to their own opinions, but not their own facts."
When I say that Dr. Frank Buchman, founder of the "Oxford Group" that created
Bill Wilson's "Alcoholic Squadron" that morphed into Alcoholics
Anonymous,
repeatedly attended
the Nuremberg Nazi Party rallies in
the nineteen-thirties, that is a fact, not an opinion. And that fact is backed up
by a bunch of historical books where eye-witnesses reported seeing him there.
Likewise, when I say that Bill Wilson went to Charlie Towns' hospital in New York
City for detoxing four times in 1933 and 1934, and was
dosed with poisonous
hallucinogenic drugs that made him "see God",
that is also a fact, not an opinion. And it is backed
up by numerous books and historical accounts — even Bill Wilson's own autobiographies.
That's the difference between facts and opinions — the facts are tied into other facts
that corroborate each other, while opinions are just one man's idea of what might be true,
or what he thinks is true, or wishes was true.
I like facts much more than opinions, because they are far more reliable.
Have a good day.
== Orange
* orange@orange-papers.info *
* AA and Recovery Cult Debunking *
* http://www.Orange-Papers.org/ *
** "What gets us into trouble is not what we don't know,
** it's what we know for sure that just ain't so."
** == Mark Twain
Date: Mon, May 25, 2009 12:02 am (answered 26 June 2009)
From: "Terri"
Subject: Things are changing
* orange@orange-papers.info *
* AA and Recovery Cult Debunking *
* http://www.Orange-Papers.org/ *
** The question is: "Are you someone who just listens to the
** lies and takes them as true, or do you think for yourself
** and analyze the situation?"
** == posted by "Fate", in Washington Post "Energy Wire", 2 Aug 2008.
Date: Mon, May 25, 2009 9:40 pm (answered 27 June 2009)
From: "Janet G."
Subject: Thankyou from Canada!
Let me add to the MANY people that I'm sure have expressed their
gratitude for your work. I have just started reading the orange-
papers and I'm just so thrilled to find them — where to start!
Last [year?] I spent 28 days in a $13,000.00 12 step boot camp and it was a slow
realization for me that this is what brainwashing is and I was a
victim of it. I thought it was the only way and consequently spent
many a meeting reading this nonsense aloud and thinking I was indeed
flawed because I didn't "get it."
I since relapsed and in order to
access my disability insurance, had to enter into a "monitoring"
agreement with my employer. To fast forward, part of this agreement
includes AA meetings, although they stop short of referring to it as
AA. "Mutual self help groups" are what they call the meetings,
although the "monitor" I'm compelled to see weekly keeps trying to
shove AA and NA down my gullet.... insisting I have a sponsor, etc. I
happily attend SMART Recovery meetings but absolutely will not go the
Bill W route. I'm an atheist and I hope to hell they challenge me on
this. I'm so up for it.
Love the orange-papers... cutting this short
to get back to reading more.... Hey... I think I know what GRATITUDE is
now... go figure!
Thanks,
Lindsay
Hi Lindsay,
Thanks for the letter and the compliments. Sorry to hear about your troubles,
and I hope that things are getting better now.
Have a good day.
== Orange
* orange@orange-papers.info *
* AA and Recovery Cult Debunking *
* http://www.Orange-Papers.org/ *
** A.A. is not a "self-help group", it's an
** "elf-help group". You are supposed to pray
** and beg for an invisible "Higher Power",
** like a leprechaun, or Cinderella's Fairy
** Godmother, to solve all of your problems
** for you and grant all of your wishes.
Two people sent me letters about a posting on Craig's List:
Date: Wed, June 3, 2009 10:58 am (answered 27 June 2009)
From: "Scott H."
Subject: You are being slandered...
Someone wrote this about you on the craigslist recovery board. A couple of the
regular members there constantly post your great stuff to deter newcomers from
attending AA.
I'm hoping that none of this is true... they often get everything wrong.
Cheers,
Scott
Date: Wed, June 3, 2009 12:51 pm (aswered 27 June 2009)
From: "Michael McF."
Subject: libel?
Soberfish posted this about you on Craigslist forum 3 JUNE 09.
No, Orange is . . . . < soberfish > 06/03 09:12:18
currently
a pot-smoking, homemade beer drinking, Cal-Poly dropout (he studied
computer science) now living in his mother's basement. He has never
served in the military, honorably or otherwise.
Orange was convicted in 1988 on one count of child molestation and served a 4 year
sentence in the CA penal system.
Orange has never been married. Women don't seem to care for his basement lifestyle
and unkempt beard (or the beer belly).
Orange receives a modest disability check for a "back injury" he
sustained while on the 2nd day of the only job he has ever held. The
disability check and the monthly donations to his "Orange Papers" site
(mostly from Jack Trimpey and other RR advocates) supports his
pornography, pot, and cheetos habits.
Orange is an avowed atheist, although he did look into Scientology once
when he thought his website revenues might generate the wealth
necessary to sustain a life in the limelight. Such are dreams.
Facts are facts.
Hi again, Scott and Michael,
Thanks for the note.
None of "Soberfish"'s scribblings are true. Not a single sentence.
It's all pure fabrication and reversal of reality.
I guess that's what passes for "rigorous honesty"
and "spirituality" and "facts" in "soberfish"'s mind,
or in his Alcoholics Anonymous circles.
I was married to a beautiful woman for several years, and my son is 33
years old now. And I am a grandfather, finally. (It took him long enough... :-)
I don't smoke pot, and I don't drink beer. I haven't touched either of those things in
8 1/2 years.
(Nor have I taken any other illegal drugs, or drank any form of alcohol,
or even smoked a cigarette in that time.)
I live on the 5th floor of a high-rise apartment tower, not in a basement.
And my mother lives in another state.
I pay the rent on my apartment with my Veterans' Administration pension,
so yes, I was in the service.
I was never convicted of any serious crime (nothing
more than traffic tickets), and never spent any time in prison.
I am not an atheist.
I am more of a psychedelic mystic, a child of the Sixties,
and my personal religion is a hodge-podge of goodies
stolen from all of the major religions of the world.
I checked out Scientology to the extent of going to the San Francisco headquarters one
time, I think in 1967, and taking their "free personality test",
and getting conned into giving them $10 for a little booklet called
"The Problems of Work". That is the total extent
of my involvement with the Scientology organization.
A few years later, in 1969 in Taos, New Mexico, I shared a house with a couple of Scientology
enthusiasts (who couldn't afford to take any more Scientology courses) and
we discussed Scientology ideas a lot. We even tried some Scientology exercises
like "Confronting", which is powerful stuff. It produces some interesting mental phenomena,
and does funny things to your mind.
But at the same time, I knew other ex-Scientologists in Taos
who had quit Scientology when they were ordered by their Scientology "Case Supervisor"
to cut off all communication with non-Scientologists.
The most common opinion of everybody in general there was that Scientology might have some
good technology, but that the organization sucked.
The statement that I studied computer science
in college is also wrong. I studied biology in college, and taught myself
computer programming many years later, at the Los Alamos Scientific Laboratory in New Mexico.
I never went to Cal-Poly. I went to the University of California at Riverside and Berkeley.
I don't have "pornography, pot, and cheetos habits".
I have sunshine, gosling, and photography habits.
I have never received a single penny from Jack Trimpey, but that's okay,
because he doesn't have to send me any money.
He's doing his thing, and I'm doing mine.
I've also never received any money from any "other RR advocates" that I know of.
The web site barely breaks even, and could never support an expensive vice.
Soberfish's "facts" are not facts.
Gee, what a funny coincidence. That's twelve items. It looks like Soberfish has his
own 12-Step program — 12 Steps to slander and libel.
Oh well, have a good day anyway.
== Orange
P.S.: When I finally found Soberfish's post on Craig's List, I noticed that Soberfish said
that he would email his charges to me and ask me to refute them, and if I didn't, then he
would assume that it was all true. Well, Soberfish never emailed me anything.
I guess he must now be assuming that his charges are true because I didn't answer his
non-existent email.
* orange@orange-papers.info *
* AA and Recovery Cult Debunking *
* http://www.Orange-Papers.org/ *
** Always do right — this will gratify some and astonish the rest.
** == Mark Twain (Samuel Longhorne Clemens) 1835—1910
From: "Scott H."
Subject: Re: You are being slandered...
Date: Tue, June 16, 2009 6:23 am
Hi,
Here is a link to the forum. I don't know how to link to the specific page, but it
is on page 21. If you scroll down to the bottom of the streaming messages and click
on page ten or the right arrows, then click on page 21 (June 2nd and 3rd are on that
page).
About halfway down the pg. a guy named Jumpin Jehova posted some of your stuff. He
posts "Daily Orange" in rebuttal to "Daily AA."
I've been posting anti-AA stuff on the internet for years. One thing that I see
changing is that there are more and more people brave enough to say they agree.
Did you know that new membership is down by half in the last year? From 2008 to
2009, AA grew by only .5 new members for each group.
!!!
I'm in Portland too. I'm a young hippie chick who despises what AA has done to our
country. We've abandoned all sense of responsibility for our own actions. It's not
something I'd like to pass on to my son, so I try and throw as much sand on the fire
as I can.
Hi again, Scott,
Thanks for the link. Isn't it odd, sort of uncanny, how loss of freedom and loss of
responsibility go hand-in-hand?
A.A. says that it isn't your fault and you can't help it because you have
a disease. But the consequence of that assumption is that you are no
longer mentally competent to decide what to do with your life, and you are only
fit for slavery — a life of obeying the orders of a supervisor,
like a sponsor.
Funny how that works.
Oh well, have a good day anyway.
== Orange
* orange@orange-papers.info *
* AA and Recovery Cult Debunking *
* http://www.Orange-Papers.org/ *
** Responsibility walks hand in hand with capacity and power.
** == J. G. Holland
P.S.: Now that's uncanny. I wrote that "hand-in-hand" line above first, and then went
poking through a book of quotes to find an appropriate quote to finish with,
and found J. G. Holland's line.
Please realize that your "need" to defame AA may literally kill.
Bill A.
Hello Bill,
This is really getting to sound like a broken record. It's downright tragic that
Steppers are reduced to parrotting the same few lines, over and over.
I cannot accurately count how many Steppers have repeated something like
"You are doing a great disservice to those who are seeking sobriety."
(By telling the truth about Alcoholics Anonymous).
Why is it that the people who use that line never say,
"You are wrong about Alcoholics Anonymous. We actually have a
17% or 25% or 31% cure rate..."
or whatever number? You are not arguing that I
am wrong when I say that A.A. and the 12-Steps are ineffective for
getting alcoholics to quit drinking. You just use the propaganda trick
of
It's Too Terrible To Tell,
and argue that I should not tell the truth because it might discourage
alcoholics from going to A.A. and wasting their time on something that
doesn't work.
And the line about
"You have a resentment" is yet another commonly-repeated line,
as if "having a resentment" somehow automatically makes someone
wrong and changes the facts, and improves the A.A. cure rate.
Again, I can't really count how many times well-indoctrinated Steppers have accused me
of "having a resentment" (and hence of being 'spiritually inferior' and
"axiomatically wrong"), but here's a list:
* orange@orange-papers.info *
* AA and Recovery Cult Debunking *
* http://www.Orange-Papers.org/ *
**
** If I say something like, "You know, penicillin isn't really very good
** for treating staphylococcus infections, and it is totally useless against
** things like MRSA staphylococcus and anthrax", people respond in a
** sensible manner like, "Yes, you are right. If somebody has infections
** like that, they are better treated with Keflex or dicloxacyllin or
** streptomycin — anything but penicillin."
**
** But if I say, "You know, Alcoholics Anonymous isn't really very good
** for treating alcoholism," the A.A. true believers scream "You are
** heartless and immoral! You don't care how many alcoholics you kill!
** You are doing a great disservice to those who are seeking sobriety!"
**
** That alone is proof that Alcoholics Anonymous is a cult religion,
** not a cure for alcoholism.
Date: Fri, June 5, 2009 8:22 am (answered 29 June 2009)
From: "Kris S."
Subject:
You people are fools
Kris S.
Date: Fri, May 29, 2009 6:49 am (answered 29 June 2009)
From: "Andy M."
Subject: Writing to churches
Dear Orange
I have always thought one of the strengths of your site is that you point out not
just that AA imposes a religious agenda, but that it is heretical in terms of
Christian belief, contrary to the explicit claim in its literature that followers of
the its program will encounter nothing incompatible with their existing religious
beliefs.
One of your correspondents (Bill N) mentioned writing to the ministers of churches
to question the appropriateness of having AA meetings on their premises. I have also
done this. Below is a letter written to a Catholic priest, but I am also going to
write to other denominations making broadly the same kind of points:
Dear Father XXX
I am disappointed to hear that your church is allowing Alcoholics Anonymous to hold
meetings on its premises. Whilst I am sure that this was done from the best of
intentions, I would suggest that an examination of the precepts of this organisation
as laid out in its literature and shown by the type of witnessing known as "sharing"
in its meetings is incompatible with the Christian faith as understood by
Catholics, or indeed any Protestant denominations I am familiar with. It's bogus
"spirituality" has more to do with superstition, magic and occultism than
Christianity. As a matter of fact (recorded in AA's own official biography of him,
"Pass it On") this movement's co-founder Bill Wilson was an enthusiastic lifelong
participant in seances in which he claimed to contact the spirits of the dead.
AA also explicitly encourages the heresy of indifferentism, which suggests that any
conception of God (euphemistically downgraded in AA to "higher power") is as good as
any other. Even the absurd notion that people can pray to things like light bulbs,
doorknobs or chairs is routinely suggested in AA meetings as a step on the way to
abdicating responsibility for one's own life and trusting implicitly that Alcoholics
Anonymous has all the answers one will ever need on how to live one's life.
You may be surprised to know that Alcoholics Anonymous has very little to say about
the nature of alcohol addiction as a health problem, but has a great deal to say
about the supposed importance of embracing some very strange concepts concerning the
nature of God, the purpose of prayer and the notion that "spiritual diseases" exist.
These ideas are not really compatible with mainstream Christianity, although they
may share some features with eccentric sects like Christian Science.
Alcoholics Anonymous had its origins in the 1930s in an envangelising protestant
sect known as the Oxford Group, run by the Rev. Frank Buchman. This movement was
highly contoversial, partly because of accusations of deceptive recruiting and
religious heresy (Catholics were actually banned by the Vatican from participating
in it) and partly because of the notorious far-right political sympathies of its
leader who openly praised Hitler.
The sacrament of Confession, familiar to me as a baptised Catholic is sacrilegiously
distorted in AA so that one is encouraged to divulge one's guiltiest secrets
(supposedly with God's blessing) to an AA "sponsor" whose only qualification to
hear them is that he or she has been a drunkard. Such a person is, of course,
unordained, untrained, unaccountable and not sworn to secrecy.
This organisation has a morbid and sickly religiosity which is entirely its own and
is not compatible with Christianity. To anyone who is involved with it for any
length of time it becomes clear that its "spirituality" is a matter of making AA
itself the central authority and guide in one's life, not God. This becomes very
clear as one hears old-established members talk with undisguised contempt and
disdain about the Christian religion, whilst literally giving AA writings such as
the so-called "Big Book" (really called "Alcoholics Anonymous") the same reverence
and affording it the same authority as Christians would reserve for the Bible.
AA successfully misrepresents itself to the outside world as a no-strings-attached
self-help and support group. In reality it is closer to being a peculiar and
exclusive medico-religious cult. Despite its protestations of ecumenical religious
open-mindedness, it actually requires beliefs and practices which set it quite apart
from any other religion and make it a de facto religion in its own right.
I know quite a lot about this organisation because in the past I had a problem with
drinking too much. I am pleased to say that this is no longer an issue, but for a
time I did become involved with the movement. However, I was repelled by its
heretical religiosity, its dishonesty and the obvious danger of some of its
practices to the mentally ill or vulnerable.
I don't think this movement should be taken at face value, any more than should,
say, the Moonies or Scientology (who also run a plausible addiction "recovery"
program). In particular, AA's claim that there is nothing in its teachings that can
possibly conflict with a person's prior religious beliefs needs close examination. I
don't believe that claim stands up to honest scrutiny.
I am not alone in having these concerns. There has for some considerable time been a
growing body of criticism of AA in print and on the internet amongst ex-members,
mental health professionals, researchers and members of churches about the
unaccountable way this movement intrudes a skewed and loaded "spiritual" agenda into
supposed help for vulnerable people.
I hope you don't mind my airing these views. When I first heard of Alcoholics
Anonymous I assumed it to be an obviously benign movement, but considerable first
hand experience of the organisation and its message has caused me to think
differently.
Yours sincerely
etc.
I'd encourage anyone who feels strongly on this issue to write to churches. There
may well be other relevant issues that I have not covered, but I thought the letter
might spark off some ideas. I think it is worth writing, even if it only causes one
or two ministers to look into the subject and discuss it.
Best wishes and kind regards to the goslings
Andy M
Date: Sat, May 30, 2009 5:18 pm (answered 29 June 2009)
From: "Andy M."
Subject: Christian critique of 12 steppism
Dear Orange
If put on the spot to declare my religion, the best I could really come up with at
present would be something like "agnostic lapsed Catholic", so I'm not looking to
convert anybody. However, for some reason I do remain quite interested in
theological ideas, and it's really quite impossible to ignore them when discussing
steppism.
I wondered if you had come across this free e-book which criticises 12 step groups,
co-dependency and the disease model of addiction from a Christian perspective.
Whilst I am far from agreeing with everything it says, I think it makes some very
good points, and is unevasive and internally consistent, once one takes into account
its explicitly religious motivation. Anyway, I just thought I'd draw attention to
it. It's interesting to see committed Christians disagreeing with AA about whether
its doctrines are compatible with their beliefs. There are plenty of evangelicals
who rant about AA being inspired by Satan (and in my more paranoid moments I
sometimes think they might be right, but this seems more reasoned:
http://www.psychoheresy-aware.org/e-books/12steps-ebk.pdf
Best wishes
Andy M
Hi Andy,
Thanks for the letters. That letter to your favorite priest sounds just right.
For readers who are not familiar with those words,
"indifferentism" is the declaration that all religions and gods
are just as good, and it doesn't matter which one you choose. (Jesus, Thor, Loki,
Wotan, Lucifer, Satan, Golden Calf, rock, tree, Doorknob Almighty, Baal Bedpan,
Miraculous Microwave,
who cares? They are all okay...)
"syncretism" is "uniting conflicting religious beliefs so as
to reduce them to a common denominator that is acceptable to all."
In other words, reducing Church teachings to pablum that offends no one anywhere.
The Bishop Noa of Marquette (Detroit, Michigan, USA) wrote
a pamphlet that criticized MRA
and there is a quote
here.
Bishop Noa is the first one that I found who specifically denounced Buchman's
religious groups for indifferentism and syncretism.
(That's where I learned those words.)
About the psychoheresy-aware.org, yes, I've run across them before. I seem to vaguely
remember that we might have communicated. I agree with their statement
that A.A. theology is incompatible with Christianity.
Have a good day. Oh, and the goslings thank you for the good wishes.
== Orange
* orange@orange-papers.info *
* AA and Recovery Cult Debunking *
* http://www.Orange-Papers.org/ *
** True religion extends alike to the intellect and the heart.
** Intellect is in vain if it lead not to emotion, and emotion
** is vain if not enlightened by intellect; and both are vain
** if not guided by truth and leading to duty.
** == Tryon Edwards
May 12, 2009, Tuesday: Day 12, continued:
Two of Carmen's new siblings, who have something to say.
Date: Sun, May 31, 2009 4:07 pm (answered 1 July 2009)
From: Seth M.
Subject: the "a.a secrets" artical
Dear author,
My name is Seth and I am an alcoholic. I work the 12 steps of A.A.
and although I disagree with your views on this matter I do respect them. I was
simply wondering what prompted you to write this article. The quote "Man has the
intelligence to change his life, Sometimes, he just fails to use it" to me simply
supports how the program works. I have been sober for just over a year and a half,
putting me in the "top 5%" for success rate. I'll tell you flat out I am only
seventeen years old and this program is what makes life work for me. I am not some
cult like member that attends two meetings a day, I go to maybe three a week and
live life as everyone else does.
My hope is that you will e-mail me back at sethman... when
you can giving me some more explanation, if you don't I completely understand, I am
just yet another curious member of society.
Respectfully
Seth M
Hello Seth,
Thanks for the letter and an honest question. And congratulations on your sobriety.
You did it, not some program or meeting.
And the answer is, first off, A.A. does not work to make alcoholics quit drinking,
and "The Program" doesn't work either. "The Program"
is really just a collection of cult religion practices that
Bill Wilson copied from the "Oxford Group" cult.
It's easy to assume a cause-and-effect relationship where none exists. You see a few
people quit drinking, so you assume that A.A. somehow caused the sobriety.
That is just like how Dumbo was able to fly because the crow gave him a "Magic Flying Feather".
And girls get pregnant because they go to churches. Well, they go to churches for months or
years, and then they get pregnant, so the churches obviously caused the girls to get pregnant, right?
Alcoholics Anonymous actually has a
pathetically low
success rate in getting people to quit drinking and stay quit.
A.A. doesn't really have a "success rate"; it's actually
a bad failure rate.
Even the A.A. founder Bill Wilson said so, in one of his rare moments of candid honesty.
But A.A. deliberately ignores the huge numbers of alcoholics who don't quit drinking
in A.A., and tries to
minimize and deny and rationalize away the failures by saying "They didn't work The Program
right." — Which is really saying that the Program didn't work to make the alcoholics
quit drinking. The Program never actually works — the alcoholics really have to do all
of the hard work themselves and then give the credit to A.A.
When A.A. was put to the test by qualified doctors, A.A. just:
And you should read some of the
horror stories
that I have received, just to be forewarned of the other side of A.A.
Oh, and going to three A.A. meetings a week is not living life as everyone else does. That is close to
an obsession.
Have a good day and a good life.
== Orange
* orange@orange-papers.info *
* AA and Recovery Cult Debunking *
* http://www.Orange-Papers.org/ *
** Someone commended Phillip of Macedonia for drinking freely.
** "That," said Demosthenes, "is a good quality in a sponge,
** but not in a king."
