Date: Fri, November 7, 2008 2:45 pm     (answered 13 April 2009)
From: "Mark L"
Subject: Orange Papers

Hello,

I just briefly read your Orange Papers. I'd like to ask a few questions, with the caveat that you keep my name and email confidential.

Okay, Mark,

I am actively involved in AA as well as another faith-based group (example = Overcomer's). I turned my life around 3-years ago after a typical downward-spiral. You probably know dozens of people like me. For 20 years I was generally healthy, happy, prosperous, and a good father. Over time, my problem worsened to the point of complete despair.

I am a strong proponent of recovery programs for those who want it and are willing to do the work. I lead a small group in my home town, and many people are there because of the courts or family; and are not yet ready to participate in the manner I previously described (i.e. willing to do the work). Regardless, they are always welcome and treated with kindness, love, and dignity.

I do not force my beliefs on anyone; but I have been called upon to help when asked. I respond to each request, and this does help me stay healthy (the 12th step, as you know). I have seen many success stories-probably more than 100 by now — just within my small community. And, based on my experience, my observation is that the AA program works 100% of the time for those willing to do the work. People who were near-suicidal are now living with joy.

I commend you for your desire to help.

When you say, "the AA program works 100% of the time for those willing to do the work", that is the propaganda technique of lying with qualifiers, and also cherry-picking. "Doing the work" really means quitting drinking. So A.A. seems to work 100% of the time on those people who will quit drinking when you tell them to.

In addition, just because someone quits drinking does not prove that A.A. works. Even 100 people quitting drinking do not supply any evidence that the A.A. program somehow made them quit drinking. It's easy to imagine cause-and-effect relationships where none exist.

Barry L. Beyerstein, Ph.D., wrote an article, Why Bogus Therapies Often Seem to Work, where he explained how informal testimonials are erroneously accepted as proof of the success of bogus therapies:

Many dubious methods remain on the market primarily because satisfied customers offer testimonials to their worth. Essentially, these people say: "I tried it, and I got better, so it must be effective." The electronic and print media typically portray testimonials as valid evidence. But without proper testing, it is difficult or impossible to determine whether this is so.
From: http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/altbelief.html

Again, it takes careful controlled testing to establish whether one thing causes another thing. Read this.

Just glancing at your paper, I had difficulty keeping up with the number of discrepancies between your opinions and mine. I want to invite you into an email discussion in hopes we can learn from each other. You have obviously been very thorough in your research, and I'd like to be able to reconcile our differences in opinion. Please don't think of me as being self-righteous, as I wouldn't be emailing you if I didn't think I will learn from you.

I suspect you are contacted by a lot of angry people who want to goad you. That is not my intent. If you are interested in exchanging ideas and experience, I would very much be interested in doing do. If you're not interested in moving forward, then ignore the rest of my email as I am going to throw out a few topics for discussion. I truly hope that you'd be willing to read my points below and engage in a conversation.

1. 13th-stepping — you are sadly right about this. It is common for newcomers, particularly vulnerable women, to be preyed upon by men. This happens. It is also highly frowned upon and each AA Chairperson (I am one) is asked that women contact women and man contact men. And, when meeting schedules and phone numbers are shared, they are meant to be within the same sex. However, AA is loosely organized and there are sadly many exceptions to this and I find it harmful. 13th-stepping is one of the most common factors in relapse. The saying for men is "behind that skirt is a slip".

2. Insurance Money. One of your comments indicated that AA is motivated to recruit newcomers because insurance covers treatment. This is not true. I assume you are referring to professional treatment centers, which do have a financial stake in "new customers". You do not need to pay to join an AA meeting. We "pass the hat" to cover expenses, but this is voluntary.

Yes, of course it is the treatment centers, which are essentially the sales and recruiting arm of Alcoholics Anonymous.

3. Your point: AA groups tend to "hang with winners" and people who are in continuous relapse are considered outcast and frowned upon. This can't be further from the truth-in my experience at least. There is a saying that "we don't shoot our wounded". People who have recently relapsed are welcomed with loving and open arms. In fact, special emphasis is placed on newcomers or people who have relapsed.

That is not what I hear. In fact, I was just answering another letter a few minutes ago, and what he said was:

After the "love bombing" phase had worn off, my skepticism returned and I couldn't sit through a meeting without believing that everybody was lying. The steps NEVER made sense to me. I did a 4th step 3 times in hope that "something" would happen. Naturally at the end of 3 years, when I drank wine at a party, my world crumbled. My social system collapsed, my status within the group was gone, "friends" withdrew their friendship.

4. Cultish and brain washing. Frankly, some people need their brain's washed. Please refer to a re-programming point in the AA program which you consider harmful.

You may think that phrase is cute, but the rest of us find it chilling. And what a rationalization it is for abuse.

Notice the similarity of that to other obnoxious cults:

What the cult leader Rev. Sun Myung Moon of the Moonies said was "Americans' minds are so dirty, so full of sex and drugs and sin, that their brains need a good washing."

The leader of the Synanon pseudo-recovery cult, Chuck Dederich, said, "Of course, we brainwash in Synanon. The dirty brains we get all the time need to be washed for Chrissake!"

Oh yes, the cults are eager to wash your brain out for you.

Now, a reprogramming point in A.A. that is harmful:

1. teaching self-denigration.
2. teaching that you can never recover.
3. teaching that you are sinful and full of character defects and moral shortcomings.
4. teaching that people drink alcohol because they have sins that they have not confessed.
5. teaching that practicing a cult religion will cure alcohol abuse or addiction problems.
6. teaching people that they cannot trust their own thinking.
7. teaching people to talk and think in slogans and thought-terminating clichés.
8. inducing phobias and teaching people that they will die drunk if they leave A.A.
9. teaching that the A.A. program is perfect, and if it doesn't work for you, it's because you were born defective and are constitutionally incapable of being honest with yourself.
10. teaching people to distrust outsiders, and just associate with other A.A. members.
11. telling people not to take their doctor-prescribed medications.
12. telling young girls to have sex with older sponsors so that they will learn "how to have sober sex".
13. teaching people to expect a miracle, and expect God to just suddenly remove the temptation to drink alcohol, "without any thought or effort on our part." The Big Book, William G. Wilson, Chapter 3, More About Alcoholism, pages 84-85.
14. teaching people that they are selfish and egotistical and thinking wrong when they see illogical contradictions in the sermons of William Griffith Wilson.

There are probably dozens more, but that's what I can think of off of the top of my head.

5. Religion. AA is very careful to avoid specific religions and spiritual world views. However, belief in a "higher power, which cares about you, and can heal you" is at the core of the program. This is a big obstacle for people who have had bad experiences with religion (and the flawed people that run then).

Umm, no. That is just more of the standard A.A. double-talk. Alcoholics Anonymous actually teaches a very specific, very peculiar, concept of God: a micro-managing vindictive male tyrant who tortures people with the lash of alcoholism in order to drive them into the one and only true religion — Alcoholics Anonymous, where the A.A. God will:

1. make you quit drinking and manage your unmanageable life for you (Step One).
2. restore you to sanity (Step Two).
3. take care of your will and your life for you (Step Three).
4. listen to your confessions and maybe give a Rat's Ass about them (and, presumably, then grant absolution without a priest assigning any penance) (Step Five).
5. answer your prayers, and remove all of your "defects of character" and "moral shortcomings" (Step Seven).
6. answer your prayers, and teach you by sending you information and guidance, and sending you work orders for the day and the power to do the work (Step Eleven).
7. give you a religious or spiritual experience (Step Twelve).

I do not know of any other religion in the world that describes God that way.

6. AA renders people to wallow in their guilt. That is completely false. People with drinking problems and addictions do bad things when they are actively drinking — lying, cheating, and stealing. Guilt and fear are barriers to healing. Therefore, the AA program has specific steps to bring past wrongs to light in a private, anonymous way. And, people are encouraged to make amends for past wrongs. This clears the way for a better way of living.

I totally disagree here. A.A. has people wallowing in guilt so much that many commit suicide. The whole purpose of Steps 4 through 10 is to induce guilt. They are all about your wrongs, and defects of character, and moral shortcomings, and more wrongs to other people. Then you do it all again and again, in an infinite loop. Not one line tells you to look at the bright side of life, or to be positive and cheerful, or to love. Not one line.

7. You cite a low success rate. However, the program does work, and the promises do come true, if people are willing. The revolving door is a result of people deciding they are not ready. Thankfully, "bottoms" are rising. At the time AA was founded, it was the hardest cases that went into AA and turned things around. Now, people are healing earlier in the downward spiral.

Again, you are lying with qualifiers — "If people are willing." And when the A.A. program doesn't work, I guess they weren't willing enough, right?

But if you are willing to quit drinking, and stay quit, by using your own determination and will power and common sense, and then give the credit to the A.A. program, then it will look like A.A. works. And then it will look like you are willing enough.

The story that A.A. worked in the early days is just another untrue myth. Read about the real historical A.A. success rate here.

8. You cite AA "leaders" who have been involved in criminal activity. That does not invalidate the program or the message. It simply points out that people are flawed and some resort to had behavior.

Now that is some classic minimization and denial. All those years of "spiritual practices", and the A.A. leaders still commit perjury against A.A. members who are "carrying the message" to poor alcoholics, in order to get them fined or imprisoned, so that the A.A. headquarters can illegally collect royalties on more expensive copies of out-of-copyright versions of the Big Book, and that's okay by you?

What are you going to do about it?

And more to the point, what can you do about it? Nothing, because A.A. is a fake democracy. You can vote all you want, and the criminal leaders in The Interchurch Center in New York City will just ignore you.

9. Abstinence versus recovery. You have an interesting point on this and I agree with you to some degree. Some people mature out of a drinking problem without being "dry drunks". However, my personal experience is that most people who are true alcoholics, who stop drinking on their own will, are not in recovery. They are still bound by fears and resentments, and are not living a serene life. They tend to me miserable until they "work the program".

That sounds like a very subjective view. Serene lives are something that I found to be entirely missing from A.A. meetings.

10. Your point: Absolving our responsibilities, duties, and obligations to "God's Will". The opposite is true. We teach "do the right next thing", "meet our moral and financial obligations", and "live our lives with honesty and caring toward our fellow man". I think what you are hinting at is humility. Human nature sometimes drives us to think we are more powerful than we really are. That is why we focus on the serenity prayer. This doesn't mean we shouldn't be good parents, work hard, pay our bills, and be charitable. It's simply recognition that a lot of us view life like a movie director — being able to position people, places, and things exactly the way we want them to be. That just doesn't happen and we need to know our limits and bounds of influence.

That is kind of garbled — "Absolving our responsibilities"??? Maybe you meant some other word than "absolving"?

As far as the rest of that paragraph goes, it is just the standard A.A. put-down of the stereotypical alcoholics. Bill Wilson delivered the same rap in the Big Book, about how we all want to be the director of the show. And Bill's answer was that we had to surrender to the cult (aka "Higher Power") and obey somebody else. That is pure cult talk.

Let me know if you're interested in exchanging ideas. I am open to the idea.

Regards,
Mark L
Oregon

Yes, Mark, I am open to a discussion. In fact, I think we are already doing it.

Have a good day.

== Orange

*             orange@orange-papers.info        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**    The A.A. Plan: "Search out another alcoholic and
**    try again. You are sure to find someone desperate
**    enough to accept with eagerness what you offer."
**    (The Big Book, page 96.)

May 27, 2008: Still in the park, Day 10.

This gosling is right there he wants to be: bedding down in a field of grass that is going to seed. He can sit there and casually pick grass seed, having breakfast in bed. And, from the way that his eyes are drooping, he looks like he is about to doze off.

[The story of the goslings continues here.]

Date: Fri, November 7, 2008 11:39 pm     (answered 14 April 2009)
From: "William T."
Subject: The AA Program

I am reading the "Orange Papers". Enjoying what you have to say. You have reaffirmed my thoughts on the AA program. The higher power of my understanding is Google, it led the way to your site. Looks like the old saying that knowledge is power may just be true after all.

2 years ago I got sick and tired of my drug use. I quit. Changed my attitude and behavior. I am currently living in a three quarter house that has rules that I must attend 4 AA or NA meetings a week. Well I'm moving next week. I haven't bought into the AA premise that their way is the only way. I just watched the Penn and Teller show bullshit that was on 12 step programs, very good. I've been going to a couple of meetings a week, but pretty much keep my mouth shut, the last time I went, the "table leader" and I got into it when I started talking about the real history of AA.

Well anyway, I'm glad you have your site on the web. Now I make the decision to use, or not use. Much simpler program.

Hello William,

Thanks for the letter. I trust that you are doing well.

Have a good day and a good life.

== Orange

*             orange@orange-papers.info        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**    One of the most sublime experiences we can ever have
**    is to wake up feeling healthy after we have been sick.
**         ==  Rabbi Harold Kushner

Date: Sat, November 8, 2008 8:15 am     (answered 14 April 2009)
From: "Malcolm K."
Subject: The word "Conception"

The word "conception" (incl. "Conceptions") is used 18 times in the book Alcoholics Anonymous. You claim this is bad english. Yet a quick reference to a dictionary yields:

Conception |k?n?sep sh ?n|
noun
1 the action of conceiving a child or of a child being conceived : an
unfertilized egg before conception | a rise in premarital conceptions.
? the forming or devising of a plan or idea : the time between a
product's conception and its launch.
2 the way in which something is perceived or regarded : our conception
of how language relates to reality.
? a general notion; an abstract idea : the conception of a balance of power.
See note at idea .
? a plan or intention : reconstructing Bach's original conceptions.
? understanding; ability to imagine : he had no conception of politics.
DERIVATIVES
conceptional |- sh ?nl| |k?n?s?p??nl| |k?n?s?p?n?l| adjective
ORIGIN Middle English : via Old French from Latin conceptio(n-), from
the verb concipere (see conceive ).

I submit to you, that the noun is meant in the second, rather than first, usage in this definition. It's not a major issue, just one of your many, many misunderstandings and misinterpretations on your site.

None the less, you do provide a useful (albeit partisan) archive of much that is useful.

All the best,
Malcolm K.

(If you want to publish this email, I would only ask that you do not publish my full name or email address. Malcolm K. is fine)

Hello Malcom,

Thanks for the letters.

Yes, I've given up on the argument about "conceptions". I still think it is archaic stilted English, using a long word where the shorter "concepts" will do the job nicely, but if Bill Wilson wants to write in a euphemistic, stilted style, well, I can't change him now.

Have a good day.

== Orange

Date: Sat, November 8, 2008 11:35 am     (answered 14 April 2009)
From: "Malcolm K."
Subject: The term "God"

Hi Orange.

I think it is number 82 of the 100 questions on weather AA is a cult that you reference God . An important part of that is of course your opinion and views on what "God" is. What is essential is to understand what Step 11 talks about when it uses the same word.

P. 46 uses some alternative terms "Creative Intelligence", "Spirit of the Universe" "Totality of Things". And, of course "Him" familiar in the abrahamic religions.

I read in a reply to one letter you quoted a great hero of mine "Ram Dass". He has an excellent Audiobook called "Experiments in Truth" which contains the talk "What isn't God?". It cleared up much confusion for me.

You make much ridicule of the idea that one may pick ones own idea of what "God" is by referring, and this is legitimate, to bed pans and doorknobs etc. On one level this is of course ludicrous, but it serves your agenda of ridiculing AA without referring to a very ancient spiritual belief still common in Buddhism, Shinto, Voudon, Hinduism and I believe Catholicism (as it is practiced here in Ireland), namely Animism. The belief that temporal objects do have an inherent spirit, independent of an external deity.

Before we come to the Steps on p.59, we are asked to consider some ideas in "We Agnostics". But the author makes clear on p.47 what he means when the term "God" is used:

"When, therefore, we speak to you of God, we mean your own conception of God. This applies, too, to other spiritual expressions which you find in this book."

You claim AA heretical, but to which Religion? Your assumption that it is Christianity is not borne out by a direct reference to that belief. Alcoholics Anonymous is a book, and no where in it does it refer directly to an organized religious doctrine. If you own a copy of As Bill Sees It, perhaps you will refer to 34 and Bill's views on AA being defined or perceived as a Christian movement.

Ah well,
Malcolm K.

(Please do not publish my email address if you feel like putting this email on your site)

Hello again, Malcolm.

I am specifically referring to the Christian religion when I say that the 12 Steps and other A.A. practices are heretical — look here. I refer to Christianity for two reasons:

1. most Americans are Christians, and
2. many A.A. members insist that the 12 Steps are based on the Bible.

(Notice how Bill Wilson still avoided mentioning the name of Dr. Frank Buchman. Bill cited the name of the number-two man in the organization, Dr. Samuel Shoemaker.)

The Catholic Church found Frank Buchman's religion to be so heretical that they banned his organization twice.

Have a good day.

You could also try reading some good books on the subject. Check out the Top 10 reading list.

And especially read the web page on "The Lizard-Brain Addiction Monster".

Have a good day.

When you ask for "a method that will work in keeping me sober", you assume that something besides you will keep you sober. That is one of the biggest mistakes of A.A. dogma. There is no such thing. Either you will keep yourself sober by not drinking alcohol, or you won't. There is no method or group or thing that will do the work for you, and A.A. doesn't do it either.

Have a good day.