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Hi there, I was just perusing your site, and came across a bit of humor titled "How to Win an Argument". You have the author listed as unknown. Just thought I'd drop you a line to let you know that particular bit of comedy was penned by Dave Barry. Cheers! Amy
Oho! Okay, thank you. Now that I think about it,
that sounds just like Dave Barry. :-)
Have a good day.
== Orange
Later: it turned out that it really was a copyrighted column by Dave Barry, so I erased it, per a request from Dave's assistant. 
/I read your article "The Effectiveness of Twelve Step Treatment". It
became clear to me quickly that you just don't get it. You miss the
entire point of AA. I only speak for myself, but the program works when
nothing else did. To be honest all of the statics in the article just
bore me. I don't need statics to know that my life is better. I wonder
how many people you killed by printing this. If AA saves one person
isn't that enough. I also want to let you know your 4 step program is
impossible and quite ignorant. THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NO WAY TO USE
WILLPOWER TO JUST QUIT BEING AN ALCOHOLIC. I'm glad you are not an
alcoholic because you would never recover./
Hello Chris,
I do get it. I am not missing the point.
Alcoholics Anonymous was supposed to make people quit drinking too
much alcohol. Alcoholics is a complete and total failure at that job. Period. End of story.
All of the other garbage, about how "spiritual" it makes you feel, is irrelevant
and worthless. That only shows that A.A. really is a cult.
This statement is garbled:
"THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NO WAY TO USE WILLPOWER TO JUST QUIT BEING AN ALCOHOLIC."
Well of course if you are a genetic alcoholic, you cannot stop being an alcoholic
by using will power, or by praying, or by joining Alcoholics Anonymous and parrotting Bill's bull.
But the usual A.A. party line about that is this:
"You cannot stop drinking to excess by using will power alone, and self-knowledge
is no help."
That's what Bill Wilson wrote. And that is simply untrue.
Lots of people quit drinking by using will power, intelligence, and self-knowledge, and I am
one of them.
Then you claim that
"the program works when nothing else did."
That is obviously untrue, because you did not try everything else in the world,
or put everything else in the world to a fair, realistic test:
Oh, and the thing that you really didn't test is DO IT YOURSELF.
That is undoubtedly the most successful program in the world.
The Harvard Medical School reported
that 80% of all alcoholics who get and stay
sober for a year or more do it alone, on their own, without any
so-called "treatment program" or "support group".
Then you launched a little attack with:
"I wonder how many people you killed by printing this."
I wonder how many people A.A. has killed with their misinformation and cultish
abuse of newcomers, and 13th-Stepping and driving people away from sobriety and recovery.
Then you asked:
"If AA saves one person isn't that enough?"
No, not if A.A. kills 6 and only saves 1. That isn't enough.
Remember that Professor Vaillant, a member of the A.A.W.S. Board of Trustees, found
that after 8 years of A.A., the score with his first 100 A.A.-treated patients was:
5 sober, 29 dead, and 66 still drinking.
That is terrible. Even Vaillant called the A.A. death rate "appalling".
Check it out. Finish reading that file on
"The Effectiveness of the 12-Step Treatment"
Remember that you have to count the failures, as well as the successes,
when calculating the success rate of any program or treatment.
And you have to subtract
the normal rate of spontaneous remission
from the success rate, so see how many people the treatment made quit drinking.
And finally, you tried to finish off with the
"Real Scotsman Fallacy",
trying to claim that I'm not "a real alcoholic".
A.A. members over-use that phony stunt so much that
I just got another
letter that tried the very same baloney.
You just can't stand to hear that a real alcoholic quit drinking without the
12-Step nonsense, can you?
You don't want to hear that a real alcoholic can quit drinking by using
will power and intelligence and self-knowledge, so you go into denial and start
chanting your slogans.
"Denial isn't just a river in Egypt."
Try chanting that one for a while.
Oh well, have a good day anyway.
== Orange
Hi Thanks for some inspiration to spread truth. Your writing, as well as others' led to me making changes to the Wikipedia that have stood the test of editing for about 3 weeks. My first (lame) attempts were removed, but I kept looking for the correct words and citings. I wanted the last thing in the reader's mind upon reading the section to be the rational opinion of a credible source, the US Supreme Court, rather that the average American. I thought you may find it rewarding, and may be able to use the citings. Originally it said this:
The causes for alcohol abuse and dependence cannot be easily explained. However, the prejudice that the roots are from moral or ethical weakness on the part of the sufferer has been largely altered. A recent pull found that 90% of Americans currently believe that "alcoholism" is a _disease._ Now it says this:
The causes for alcohol abuse and dependence cannot be easily explained. However, the prejudice that the roots are from moral or ethical weakness on the part of the sufferer has been largely altered. A 1995 Gallup Poll found that 90% of Americans currently believe that "alcoholism" is a disease. Bye "Stormy Waters"
Hi Stormy,
Thanks for the note, and thanks for the compliments.
Glad to see that somebody is working on the Wikipedia. Looks good.
I shied away from it because I figured that it would be another time-consuming
battle.
Have a good day.
== Orange
Dear Orange, I have enjoyed reading your essays online, you have done a good job of exposing the nasty cult I have had a brief and unpleasant encounter with. I live in Britain and we have a similiar situation as in the States — 90% of drug and alcohol treatment centres are 12 step based, and are subsidised by the State through individual referall via the national health service. It amazes me that medical professionals have not cottoned on to the nature of it — or maybe it is simply due to expense — 12 steps is big business, the State doesn't care enough about drunks or drug addicts to invest in proper treatment. I am a former drug user and I feel that exposure to the 12 steps hindered, not helped, my recovery. I did the impossible and got of drugs myself, and I have seen friends from NA relapse (some of them may be dead now for all I know). I wrote an article that will be appearing next week in a small newspaper on the subject, and I gave your site as a source of reference, along with others I came accross. Your essays are quite long and take a while to read on the pc, are they available in book format? Meanwhile I will do what I can to raise awareness, along with lobbying my MPs and health services. If you have any ideas that would be great. Far too many people who should know better believe the lies of 12 steps — it is unbelievable how health professionals, lawyers etc can accept such a religious cult as being 'medicine'. Best Regards Liz
Hi Liz,
Thanks for the letter. It gladdens my heart to hear that people are fighting
the good fight over on the other side of the Atlantic, too.
Eventually we will get the word out.
Have a good day.
== Orange
P.S.: See the
Detailed instructions for
burning a CD
for getting your own copy of the 'book'.
DONT YOU THINK UR DISLIKE FOR aa IS A LITTLE OBSESSIVE I AM AN ALCOHOLIC AND I ATTEND aa EVERY DAY AND I DONT SEE WHERE U GET SOME OF UR BABBLE FROM IS IT EXPERIENCE OR ARE U A MEMBER OF A CULT BY THE WAY THE BEHAVIORS U DEMONSTRATE ARE THOSE OF A DRY DRUNK I WOULD LIKE TO TALK TOO U
Hello John,
Obsessive? Don't you think that attending A.A. every day is a little obsessive?
No, I am not a member of a cult. I quit Alcoholics Anonymous, remember?
You want to talk? Okay, go for it. And turn off the caps lock key, please.
And have a good day anyway.
== Orange
thanks for the excellent article. i had a lot of fun reading it. many, if not most of the points you made, certainly ring true. once again, thank you.
Hi Ace,
Thanks for the thanks, and you have a good day too.
== Orange
[2nd letter from Ace:]
Date: Wed, February 1, 2006 Thank you for the hope you have given me. After 5 years of aa attendance, I have been unable to put together any "time". This inability has made me feel quite defective. For this addict."meeting makers make it" has not proven true and the suggestion given that I "up" my meetings, going 2, 3 times a day "if necessary" was also ineffective.
Hi Ace,
Thanks for all of the thanks.
My drug of choice is cannabis and I have not consumed etoh or any other white powdery substance in at least a decade. I find it quite hippocritical of old timers who smoke 20 to 40 cigarettes expressing, their feined superiority towards me, who smoke 2 or 3 joints per day. Yeh... Many of these elders are always broke,can hardly afford their smokes as evidenced by their constant begging,often times can not afford their bus fare, do not have a decent apartment,cannot find a woman (even in aa ha ha ), refuse to get a job and certainly not serene as evidenced by their hateful ways. I actually had a member brandish a knife , in a menacing manner to me. I who smoked every day am never broke, have two automobiles, a lovely wife ,apartment and job. in other words, these superior, "spiritual people did little to inspire me. Please forgive, I do not mean to paint everyone with this broad brush but yes, many are just as described!!!! I resent and refuse having to identify the core of my being as "I'm an alcoholic in every meeting. I was told that even though I do not drink etoh, I still suffer from the "ISM" and for this reason should identify myself as such. In a way, I can understand identifying oneself as such in the aa forum but was told I must always remember during every waking breath that I am am alcoholic!! I refuse, much to the consternation of the elders, to do so.This is the only malady I know of that requires you do so . When announcing my clean time, giving my name only, the membership do not clap like a bunch of trained seals. Thanks to your site I now truly have a sense of hope and freedom and no longer feel defective! I read excerpts from your site every day. Despite all of the hogwash I've been fed, I do miss the few good freinds I've made and will probably return on my 30 60 and 90 th day just to gloat that I did it WITHOUT THEM AND THEIR 6 PRACTICES x 2.I learned from you that I put the 23 days together through my own efforts and not through the kindly benevolence of the almighty bed pan or group of drunks. Congratulations. I doubt I will be asked to share my experience , strength and hope but will definitely (if given a chance ) refute some of their faulty teachings, using what I've learned from you. Please wish me luck because I am certain that it will fly like a lead balloon.
Okay Ace, I wish you luck.
And have a good day.
== Orange
[3rd letter from Ace:]
Date: Wed, February 1, 2006 I do not blame you for almost getting "tarred and feathered". The topic of a meeting was rigorous honesty. All I did was question how aa could be a program of rigorous honesty, when the founder, Big Bill was a pathological lyin, thievin, 13 steppin, scoundrel, who would not recognize the truth if it bit him on his posterior! I attempted to cite some of your findings but was immediately shouted down by some of the old timers. I was asked why I was there if that is the way I feel. I responded by telling them that it was none of their business and that so long as I am in America, I'll go where I please, thank you. Some of the members almost got violent and continued to ask me to leave. I continued to refuse, when a freind defended me by telling me to take it easy and stay. It was then that I thanked him for his support but was leaving because I had enough of a sampling of their unconditional love ! I did not have a resentment because I was just conducting an experement to see the reaction I'd get. I learned that you can share whatever your little old heart desires, so long as you parrot the party line, do not criticize old lecherous Bill nor his dogma. Any way ha! ha!! ha!!! Keep up the good work and as for myself "I'll keep my visions to myself" as the song goes, ha! ha!! ha!!!
Congratulation, Ace.
Thanks for an amusing story.
Have a good day.
== Orange
AA the only way? Thats what I put in the search engine. I came up with Cult Test answers. Every fricking time I hear the Serentity Prayer or those forsaken "readings" at a meeting I feel like I am in a cult. I cant take it. I searched this cause after tonites meeting well actually for awhile now. I can't stand AA; their success rate sucks and I have been sitting in the "rooms" looking around and thinking only 5% of these people are going to quit and the rest will go back. Its a pitifully low number. I have 18 months clean. I am forced to go to these meeting in order to keep my kids. It's a choice. They say. Yeah if I want to lose my kids or not. so I go. But it has been so hard to listen to the BS. What kept me clean at first was the drug test and not wanting to turn in a dirty. Now its just I enjoy who I am not loaded. And its easier just not going out looking for dope. . When the court ordeal is over I do not plan on getting loaded. I am just glad that your site has proved to me beyond reasonable doubt that, I dont need 12 steps to keep me away from drugs.
Sara A.
Hi Sara,
Congratulations. You've got it together. You are absolutely right: You don't need the 12 Steps,
or a cult, or a support group, or "treatment" or any of that garbage in order
to stay clean and sober.
All that you need is a burning desire for a better, higher life.
And I too am at the point where I'm just enjoying not being loaded.
And I'm not even smoking. I like to joke that I'm saving my lungs for marriage.
It really feels good to not be chronically sick any more.
I think about relapsing, now and then. (Not very often, but now and then.)
I think about the fact that there are possible futures
where I could arrange things so that I could drink and dope and smoke. And then I think that
I really don't want to go back to suffering like that again.
I don't want to be that sick ever again. Been there, done that.
Time for the next big thing.
I would suggest that you get some kind of social group of other people in recovery,
just for the company and the moral support. It isn't essential,
but might be helpful and even fun.
I like SMART meetings for the simple
reason that you don't have to listen to the BS at the start of every meeting.
That BS drives me nuts too, hearing all that stuff
that I know is blatant lies at the start of every meeting:
"RARELY HAVE we seen a person fail, who has thoroughly followed our path", and all
of that.
The nice thing about SMART meetings is that you can tell the truth, the whole truth, the
real truth, without somebody complaining that the official party line says something
different.
I also hear good things about Women For Sobriety (WFS). I heard that the meeting in a
nearby town was formed by a bunch of women who were refugees from A.A. who were tired
of the guys hitting on them.
Apparently they were also tired of the 12-Step dogma because they dumped that too and
used the WFS format for their meetings.
If there aren't any SMART or WFS meetings in your area, you could check out online meetings
of any of the non-cult recovery-oriented groups. There is a list of them, with links,
at the very start of
my links page.
That's just a suggestion, just the thought that you might enjoy a non-cult group of
people who are also recovering.
Well, enjoy your life, and have a good one. And have a good day.
== Orange
I am an alcoholic member of AA and came across your site while surfing through Google for "Bill Wilson", as I have been reading "Pass It On" and wanted to hear a bit more about Bill from other sources. While I am very grateful for the care, concern, and companionship my fellow AAs have given me, I felt a bit as if I were reading a Catholic Church description of a saint. The book just doesn't ever say anything negative about Bill. Again, I believe he did a great deal to help a great number of people (from my perspective, even if AA is a cult, my fellow alcoholics have helped me to stay sober and that's a good thing — as long as one doesn't lose sight of the situation). But I am interested in your point of view; I still squirm at the religious overtones in AA, though I usually replace references to God and "my higher power" with my concept of being a very small cog in the wheel of the universe. But what interests me most is where your sources come from. In particular, can you direct me to where I might get more information about the "Founders Watch"? That seems fascinating and I'd like to hear more about it. Thanks.
Hi Linda,
Thanks for the compliments.
You should look at the web page called
"The Other Women".
It contains all of those interesting quotes, along with the citations
and references to the sources.
Specifically,
this link
will take you directly to the Founders Watch Committee.
Enjoy.
Have a good day.
== Orange
Dear Writer: Thank you for your extensive research and spot-on analysis of the AA program and Bill Wilson. Your work provides historical and psychological perspectives which are essential to understanding How It Works.
Sincerely,
Hi Kathy,
Thanks for the compliments.
I'm not sure what you mean by "How It Works", because
my position is that "It Doesn't Work".
Oh well, have a good day anyway.
== Orange
[2nd letter from Kathy:]
Date: Wed, February 1, 2006 I used the phrase "How It Works" as a tongue-in-cheek expression. Kathy
Ha-So! Okay, thanks for the clarification.
And have a good day.
Mr Orange; Your website is fantastic, as I have told you in the past. Call me slow off the mark, what ever, but I realised the other day a major detail of my cult experience with AA. It goes like this: When I was deep in, say 2 years in, to AA — having worked the steps, service etc — I was still haunted and confused about actions in my past — actions whilst drinking even — that I /valued/, that I thought were good etc. I tried to show love to my parents; I opposed racism; I stuck up for people who were bullied; I was always polite — ya know, fairly decent most of the time. But I did not hear this stuff acknowledged or appraised in AA. What was good about me soon lost its "validity" in that, those memories of me being a fairly kind young man soon started to loose all weight. I eventually, after deep indoctrination, started to appraise those good actions as "selfishness", or "moral pride", or "martrydom" etc. So nearly every memory of myself doing "good" was not really good anymore, but part of my disease, my /ego/, and was not really good at all, but symptoms of a disease caused by selfishness and self seeking. Being nice is not good enough for those sick fuckers. And this is why... I read this: http://www.leaderu.com/orgs/probe/docs/moralife.html This is by a Christian, and for those who cannot be bothered reading it he basically explains how moral secular people are not moral at all — but just phoney "do-gooders". And I am quite positive, to the core infact, that Bill Wilson saw secular morality as phoney, as evil. This has huge meaning for those in AA expecting self help for a horrible problem. The idea that someone's moral code is completely rewritten is not self help, but religious conversion. Thank God I left, and thank you, thank you, thank you Agent Orange. (Orange — something on belief system should be drawn up on the anti-AA sites. So people can see how belief systems are slowly replaced by other belief systems (in this case AA). If people realise that their beliefs are under attack they will understand far greater the true nature of AA — and the "process of recovery").
Hi again, Harold,
Thanks for the letter and all of the compliments.
What you are talking about, how all of your previous life gets re-interpreted as
evil, sounds just like this cult test item:
75. New Identity — Redefinition of Self — Revision of Personal History
And the answer for A.A. is here:
75. New Identity — Redefinition of Self — Revision of Personal History
I am really reminded of
Andrew Meacham's story
about how he ended up practicing "reverse denial"
where he talked about how bad his previous life (before A.A.) was, to prove that he wasn't
in denial.
And I'm also reminded of all of the Oxford Group meetings where people delivered
the standard speeches
about how sinful and unhappy they were until the Oxford Group "changed" them....
I'll have to think about a web page on how people's beliefs are
under attack. That sounds like a good project.
I think I've already covered a bit of that subject in the
Heresy of the 12 Steps
web page: There are huge conflicts between the A.A. dogma and what most people
accept as mainstream Christian values
— like how
it's okay to deceive people to
get them to join Alcoholics Anonymous
— it's for their own good — "The end justifies the means."
Oh well, have a good day.
== Orange
Hey there: I read your blog and you made some decent points. I persnally have never met anyone for AA that would make anyone come to a meeting or not come to a meeting. If a person needs help with drinking AA is absolutley the most powerful and successful way to help. I have found that people don't judge at these meetings. I would suggest that you go to some meetings and learn what it is that happens in the meetings. There are also many different types of AA meetings built around members who might have things in common and they sort of form groups which match profiles and beliefs. AA is wide open and noone brain washes anyone. In fact, it is just the other way around. AA encourages people to stay sober and become better people within a 12 step program which can be interpreted through an individuals own belief. There is no religion in AA. Go to some meetings and you will quickly learn this. Your questions are good though, and judges should be careful in giving sentances involving many levels. AA works best for the person who is really in trouble and can't stop drinking and has hit rock bottom emotionally, spirtually, and physically. From there they can be lifted back up and restored to sanity and removed from the chaos of substance abuse. AA really works and it's power doesn't come from one central place. It is supported in many ways from millions of people who come from very different backgrounds. The great part of AA is that you can believe in anything in life, the only requirement is a desire to stop drinking. Any judge should be careful and lead people to AA who have actually asked for the help to stop drinking. Check out this stuff and talk with more people about this issue. Find out for yourself at the way this organization works. Meet people who have been in recovery for a long time and you will quickly realize that those folks are living great lives. Thanks, Michael
Hi Michael,
Thanks for the letter.
Once again, we have an A.A. member insisting that I don't know anything about A.A., but
if I would just go to a few A.A. meetings and read the Big Book, I would
learn the truth.
Please read
the introduction to this web site, which clearly explains how I went to
A.A. meetings and decided that it was a cult and a bunch of bull.
I've been to plenty of meetings, and have read most of
the "Conference-Approved" literature.
And please remember that I started off thinking that Alcoholics Anonymous was
the biggest and best self-help group in the USA.
Like most other people, I was fooled and misinformed by the endless river of
A.A. self-promotion.
It was only by going to A.A.
meetings and reading the Big Book, and then learning more about A.A.,
that I came to the realization that it is a fraud and a cult.
And of course
Alcoholics Anonymous is a religion.
That is obvious, once you stop playing word games
like
"It's spiritual, not religious."
Oh, and A.A. doesn't work. It has a terrible failure rate —
basically a 100% failure
rate coupled with a high death rate. The only people who recover in A.A. are the ones
who were going to recover anyway —
the cases of spontaneous remission.
A.A. just takes undue credit for other people's hard work.
Oh well, have a good day anyway.
== Orange
This is invaluable and really ought to be required reading. Very well done. Melody A.
Hi Melody,
Thanks for the compliments.
Have a good day.
== Orange
Hi. I love this site! It's really amazing how in-depth you go on all the different subjects relating to AA. — Makes for very interesting reading. I hope you don't mind, but I'd like to share my story with you. I used to have a drinking problem. A bad one. I started drinking when I was fifteen and by the time I was twenty five, I was drinking everyday and had lost my apartment due to spending money on alcohol and not rent. I was in a relationship with a man who was a violent, abusive drunk. I did a lot of stupid things like start fights with people, tried breaking into a house, drove around while so intoxicated that I had to drive with one eye closed, to keep from seeing double. I got into a bad accident after knowingly getting into a car whose driver was drunk and ended up with a broken nose, bruises on my heart and eighty stitches in my head. All of the people I hung out with at that time were either drunks and/or heroin addicts. I could barely function at work because I'd show up completely hung over. I abused many different drugs, but alcohol was my one, true love. I could do without coke or E or pills, but I could not live without alcohol. After moving around from place to place, I finally settled in north Jersey . I was still drinking, but at this point I was starting to feel that the cons of drinking all the time were outweiging the pros. I tried to stop a bunch of times. I would wake up and say to myself, "Today, I'm not going to drink." And I"d be okay for a couple of hours. But then I would start to get achy, like I was coming down with the flu. I'd start feeling fatigued. Depression and anxiety would wash over me. And I would give in and get a twelve pack. As soon as i took a couple sips of beer, the depression and anxiety would disappear. The fatigue would be replaced with energy and my aches and pains would disappear. Then one day, after a couple of months of trying to quit I was hanging out drinking with some of my friends. I was buzzing and feeling *really* happy. I had just finished my third beer and was about to open my fourth. I sat there smiling, fourth beer in hand, when it hit me. It really hit me that the */only/* reason I felt good, the /*only*/ reason I felt happy was because I had alcohol in me. And that scared me and I suddenly felt incredibly sad. I thought to myself that I want to try being happy (or just content) on my own. I put the beer down and said to my friends, "I don't want to do this anymore." They were totally supportive. Since then, I don't get wasted everyday. I'll still have a couple of drinks (no more than three or four) now and then, but no more than once or twice a month. — And that makes me feel really good — that I did it on my own and that I don't have to depend on alcohol to feel good; that I've been able to replace drinking with healthier activities like painting and cooking. It was a struggle, but I did it. I used to be friends with a girl who was a part of AA, who told me that I wasn't a /real/ alcoholic, because real alcoholics can't quit drinking on their own, that it's a disease. Our friendship didn't last too long. She had given me a copy of Courage to Change, an Al-Anon daily meditation book, with a "meditation" for each day of the year, each written by an Al-Anon member. I just recently sat down to check it out. I have a lot of problems with it. — Like the person who called the verbal abuse she dealt with from her alcoholic spouse a "symptom" of his "disease". Another person referred to denial as a "symptom" of the "family disease" known as alcohol. Ridiculous! It also seems that they're never supposd to complain about things like verbal abuse because they have their own "defects of character". They claim they're not a religious organization, but they use the words "Higher Power", "God", and "prayer" a total of 446 times and they often use the terms "Higher Power" and "God" interchangably. Also it, makes absolutely no sense *AT ALL* that Al-Anon members are required to work the 12 Steps. Reading through that book, I believe, has substantially lowered my IQ. Lastly, I'd like to say, all these people who are writing you negative e-mails are complete and total hyprocrites. They try to come off as though they are selfless, altruistic people, but I've seen quite a few bruised egos making ad hominem attacks on you. To me, if an organization (and the people who belong to it) truly care about helping others and nothing else, they would be okay with constructive criticism (which is what you are doing), because it could only help them to better themselves and their cause. But instead they tell you stupid shit like "Have a drink on me!" How infantile and hateful. Anyway, keep up the good work! You're helping more people than you know! You're site has opened my eyes to a number of things, especially your piece on the base brain. We need more people like you in the world. :) Sincerely, M P.S. Congratulations on your five years of sobriety!
Hi Mary,
Thanks for the letter and all of the compliments.
Your story sounds so much like mine in so many ways.
Alas, there were a few critical differences:
I didn't stop at the point where you did. You stopped when you
had the realization that you could only feel good when you had
alcohol in you. That thought bothered me for a little while, but then
I just accepted it and kept on drinking. That realization just meant
that I needed a better supply of alcohol.
Then it bothered me — scared and
horrified me, actually — when I would wake up after a total black-out and
not be able to remember anything that I had done the night before after the 6th
beer. I had to count the empties laying around to figure out how much I had drunk,
and it was a lot more than 6.
But then I got used to that too, and it just became usual — normal — that I could never
remember what I had done the night before.
The sheriff wasn't banging on the door to arrest me, so why worry?
Then it got to where I couldn't remember what I did last week, or yesterday, or much of
anything, and I still didn't stop.
It took unemployment, eviction, starvation, and a doctor telling me that I was
going to die to finally get me to snap out of it and decide to stop the slow suicide
routine.
I wish I had quit a little sooner. I'd have a few more brain cells left.
Obviously, I totally agree with your story of how you could just quit drinking
without joining a cult religion. And I agree that the 12-Step self-criticism
routine is really psychologically unhealthy.
I'm sure that it has driven a bunch of people to suicide.
I can't say precisely how many, but I'm sure that it's a bunch.
(More on that here.)
One note I have to add is that there really are different kinds of
alcoholics. Some can just get a grip and taper off into moderate controlled
drinking, and some can't. You are obviously one of the people who can.
I'm one of those who can't. Just 3 beers is enough to readdict me.
I know, because that's what happened to me 14 years ago, and I ended up drinking
for another 9 years. But that's my problem, and not yours.
I know that's a real hot topic with A.A. people, who insist that no "real alcoholic"
can ever recover and just enjoy moderate drinking. Not true. Some can and some can't.
It's up to the individual people to figure out what the truth is for them.
(More on that
here
and
here.)
Thanks for the letter, and have a good day.
== Orange
The sad story that follows is from the Ukiah, CA Daily Journal. The victim met her husband at an AA meeting; turns out he was a scam artist wanted in New Mexico. After running up massive debts in her name and splitting with more than a hundred grand in the couple's bank account, he took off under the pretext of a "Twelfth Step call." Sadly, it appears that her only remaining support was from the same outfit that attracted the scoundrel in the first place. http://tinyurl.com/blk5z (Article is no longer online at the Ukiah Daily Journal.)
Hi, and thanks for the letter.
What a tragedy. Alas, that is one of the big problems with the whole
A.A. structure. Everybody is anonymous, and there is no way to keep out
the predators. And there is no certification or testing of the teachers.
And there is no performance review for the sponsors. Nobody is accountable
for anything.
Anyone can come into an A.A. meeting and claim that he has half a dozen years of
sobriety, and start sponsoring people, and give them medical, psychological
and spiritual advice, and tell them how to live... No matter what he is, or
how stupid, ignorant, or evil he is.
Oh well, have a good day anyway.
== Orange
As a recovering person with ten years sobriety.......and an addiction
therapist........let me give you some figures. Until YOU can provide a better method........you should concentrate your efforts on something more productive than criticising what you can never hope to understand --
Hello Michael,
Those are some interesting claims.
You left a lot out of your story.
I can only guess that between the first and second sentences you meant to say that
you quit drinking and then, after some sober time, decided to become a certified
additions counselor. So you went back to school and took a bunch of classes, and
got good grades, and graduated and got a degree, and then got a license to counsel.
Then there are all of these things that you didn't say anything about:
Oh well, have a good day anyway.
== Orange
Hi Orange Hope you are well. I wrote to you before. I am less than six months free from AA after spending nearly nine years there. I have always kept a diary and was looking threw it. I truely was brainwashed. The language I used in my diary while in the cult shocked even myself in retrospect. 'I must do as my sponsor says' or my 'Higher Power will save me'. But the worst part I wrote, 'I must love my father'! My da was a wicked selfish man and yet AA didn't care about that. I was to blame, they said. I remember you writing a piece stating it was like that in the USA. Same in Ireland. I said in one of my last letters I had made new friends. The truth is I was putting on a brave front at the time. I am finding it difficult, very difficult. I guess after nine years of brainwashing that's natural. But I feel I am not worthless as AA told me. I just reverse the brainwashing by telling myself that I deserve happiness and love, only unlike AA this is the truth. Your pages give me great comfort. Oh in case any pro AAs misinterpret my difficulties: I have no difficulty staying sober. Sure why would I? Haven't I been sober nine years? I am thinking of setting up a blog. May I use some of your information? It will be about my personal opinions but I would like to quote your site for hard facts (?). I have read through parts of the BB again, actually I'd read it many times. I think it's the first time I read a book and didn't once have to pick up the dictionary. It is a simple book written by a simpleton. I will not be allowing comments on my blog. Some of the vicious hate mail you get really is appalling. I'm just too sensitive! Hope you are very well Sir!
regards
Hi Mairtin,
It's good to hear from you again. I'm glad to hear you are hanging in there
and making it. I am well too.
Feel free to quote me and borrow stuff in putting together your blog.
I know what you mean about the hate mail. But sometimes it is so stupid
that it is downright entertaining.
Oh well, have a good day anyway.
== Orange
I have just spent my night reading a large part of your website and links. I do not know you but it is clear you have been damaged by AA or someone sometime and you can't seem to move on. If AA does not have any good qualities then why do you spend so much time and energy trying to destroy AA? Most rational people make their point and then move on in life, but you seem to be fixed on AA. I do appreciate your research and I did find some interested things on it. But, as AA talks about, you need to move on from your resentments and hatred of AA or it will destroy your quality of life. Try discussing something in a positive nature. Life is good. Randy, 6 months sober
Hi Randy,
Congratulations on your 6 months of sobriety. It is probably good that you quit drinking.
Nobody quit drinking for you, so you deserve the credit for your sobriety.
What does "move on" actually mean, besides "Please quit telling the truth about
Alcoholics Anonymous"?
I am so not "fixed on A.A." that I went out and partied in the sunshine for nearly
a year, last year, and left this web site neglected for a while.
I just got tired of arguing about Alcoholics Anonymous.
Playing the guitar and working on my suntan and
feeding the geese down at the river was more fun.
But the fact remains that somebody has to tell the truth about sick people being
forced into the meetings of a cult religion where they get indoctrinated with
insane quack nonsense. That even occasionally kills one of the victims.
So I'll have to maintain this web site for a while longer.
Alcoholics Anonymous has had 70 years now to show that its cult religion and quackery
actually work to cure or treat alcoholism,
and it has totally failed to do so. In fact, A.A. has carefully
avoided any valid testing that would prove the point.
Since A.A. is just a dogmatic cult with a failed cure, don't you think it is about time for
the A.A. members to just "move on"?
Oh well, have a good day anyway.
== Orange
Dear Orange: I am sorry about AOL. Perhaps you should consult an attorney. Their conduct is inadmissable. I do have some remarks about AA. 1. AA would be moribund without mandated attendance. Coercion — not attraction — is the order of the day [pun intended]. 2. Newcomers are not really welcome at AA. Newcomers seem to make it difficult for "old timers" to talk amoung themselves. This is difficult for newcomers to miss. 3. People do not share. They use coded words. Catch phrases or bormides or cliches are used to hide behind; this eliminates the need to actually discuss real human suffering. 4. AA does serve to alleviate isolation. This isolation is real — and crippling. 5. AA cannot deal with the root causes of abuse; it represses them: depression, anxiety, bi polar, etc etc. 6. AA does not really believe in moving on. Solving the problem and getting on with making a life. AA needs people to remain dependent upon AA. 7. AA can serve as a support group. One may find another person who may help you through a difficult period. 8. AA is anonymous. That is useful — if you protect it. People in AA do not really know others in AA, nor do they actually care. Knowing that can be useful. 9. AA can be useful as a "tool in the toolbox" — make certain that it is not your only tool. If the only tool you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail. 10. One does not need a sponsor. A sponsor may be a matter of the blind leading the blind. The issue is to heal. Not recovery. Healing. There is a huge difference. My experience did not resonate with AA. AA did not get it. I healed without AA. I did not recover — I healed. My problem required a scalpel — not a hammer. I am well now. I lost 4 loved ones from April 2002 to Feb 2004. My wife was the last. That is why I drank. Regards Howard W
Hello Howard,
Thanks for the letter. Words from the wise.
Have a good day.
== Orange
[2nd letter from Howard:]
Date: Wed, February 1, 2006 Dear Orange: Thank you Orange for your kind remark. My hope, not forlorn I trust, is for two things: that the Courts come to understand that AA is an ignominious failure. 12 step is a mere abstraction; empty words. Second, that the medical profession comes to understand that AA is useless and worse than useless — AA is iatrogenic. The medical profession did come to understand sepsis; so, all is not hopeless. Howard W
Hi again, Howard,
Yes, one can hope, can't one? It is downright hard to believe that the medical
community and government agencies can be so stupid as to believe the Steppers'
propaganda, isn't it?
Oh well, have a good day anyway.
== Orange
Dear Agent Orange, Thank you for your interest in, "AA-Not the Only Way". I also wanted to personally thank you for your own website and the work that you have done, and continue to do. You helped me a great deal with my research to write my book, and I was just astonished at what I learned from your site, as well as some others. I am in the middle of trying to move my website to a host where I can handle everything myself since I am NOT a computer person, so in the near future I am going to be putting up many different resources on my site, as well as doing link exchanges with those who are on the same page as I am with the whole recovery scene. Please let me know if you are interested in working together to help get the message out to as many people as possible. All the best,
Melanie Solomon P.S. You can listen to my interview any time today, and it will probably be on all week at www.take12radio.com where Monty interviews me about my book. It's actually pretty cool because even though he has many, many years of sobriety in AA, he was very supportive of getting the info out to people so they know about all of their options. If you want, you can copy and paste the banner at the bottom of this email and post it up on your site. I think your visitors will really want to know about this! Take care.
Okay, Melanie,
Thanks for the thanks, and good luck on your web site.
And have a good day.
== Orange
Are you sick of all those sissy "friendship" poems that always sound like Hallmark cards, and never come close to reality? Well, here is a series of promises that really speak to true friendship: 1. When you are sad — I will help you get drunk and plot revenge against the sorry son-of-a-bitch who made you sad. 2. When you are blue — I will try to dislodge whatever is choking you. 3. When you smile — I will know you've finally had sex. 4. When you are scared — I will rag on you about it every chance I get. 5. When you are worried — I will tell you horrible stories about how much worse it could be and tell you to quit whining. 6. When you are confused — I will use little words. 7. When you are sick — stay the hell away from me until you are well again. I don't want whatever you have. 8. When you fall — I will point and laugh at your clumsy ass. This is my oath...I pledge it till the end. Why, you ask? Because you are my friend. Send this to 10 of your closest friends, then get depressed because you can only think of two, and one of them isn't speaking to you anyway. Remember: /*A good friend will help you move. A really good friend will help you move a body. Let me know if I ever need to bring a shovel.........And remember your no good , your bad in bed, your friends don't like you, and your better off DEAD.*/ */HAVE A HAPPY DAY!/* */Ric/* --
Hi Ric,
Thanks for the laugh, and you have a good day too.
== Orange
I have no idea who you are. I feel sad for you that you would try to negate what has helped millions of people get sober. God chooses flawed human beings as his best messengers. Witness Moses, Abraham, etc. Only Christ was perfect. The message is much more important than the messenger. God bless you as you go on. Please stop hurting people who need help with you bigotry.
Hi Barbara,
Sorry, but A.A. has not helped millions. As a cure for alcoholism, A.A. is a total
failure with a success rate no better than giving alcoholics no help at all.
A.A. is just another cult religion that perpetrates a hoax, just like Scientology.
Read the file
The Effectiveness of the
Twelve-Step Treatment for more on the A.A.
success rate.
You might also want to read
The Other Women
and
The Funny Spirituality of
Bill Wilson and Alcoholics Anonymous
before concluding that Bill Wilson was some kind of a messenger from God.
Oh well, have a good day anyway.
== Orange
[2nd letter from Barbara W.:]
Date: Wed, February 1, 2006 AA is not the only way to get and stay sober, of course. No one ever said it was. I am living proof that it works, and I know from over 120 years of sobriety in my own family, that it works. It must just not have worked for you. I will pray for you. By the way, AA is not a religion or a cult.
Hello Barbara,
You are living proof that it is possible to quit drinking.
You have offered no evidence that A.A. caused your sobriety.
You are pulling yet another propaganda trick when you say,
"It must just not have worked for you."
That is the trick of "assume the major premise".
That is bad logic. MY program is working great. I simply chose not to join a cult,
and when I saw how the cult was being foisted on vulnerable people, I chose to
speak out.
By the way, Alcoholics Anonymous is both
a religion and
a cult.
Oh well, have a good day anyway.
== Orange
In your Wish List # 25 you wrote "This question leads into the next one — another word: What do you call this phenomenon that I called "seeing through tinted lenses"? " Have you considered "meme?" (Rhymes with dream- meem) and is a noun meaning "A unit of cultural information, such as a cultural practice or idea, that is transmitted verbally or by repeated action from one mind to another." http://www.answers.com/topic/meme It's a fascinating concept and a theory worth exploring , I think. A Goggle search will produce more than anyone ever wants to know on the subject! Here a just a few links for your quick reference: http://jom-emit.cfpm.org/1998/vol2/wilkins_js.html http://pespmc1.vub.ac.be/MEMIN.HTML (Dead Link, Domain Name Lost.) This last link asks, "What if ideas were viruses?" It certainly would fit your observation and mine that "Once somebody buys into one of those models of reality, a perceptual filter kicks in where they notice more and more "facts" that reinforce their chosen beliefs, and they ignore any conflicting information that comes along, so they become more and more convinced of the correctness of their beliefs." They have a different meme. I would love to do a paper on it, but given time restraints, doubt that I ever will. Should you use it might I ask for credit? Thank you for a very interesting site, a wealth of information! The only major point of disagreement I have is with Bill's mental illness. Your meme there is different from mine! I am more interested in his connection with the Rockefellers. Do you have a chronological list of his meetings with them or his office location in the Rockefeller building, his salary from them, etc. (BTW I am not into conspiracies. Their name, however, is found at the very bottom of several areas of my academic research.) Sincerely, Mary C. Hogan, Ph.D.
Hi Mary,
Thanks for the letter.
"Memes" isn't quite the word I'm looking for. It is related, but I'm really looking
for a word much more like putting on a set of rose-colored glasses, or Nazi-tinted lenses,
or Scientology filters, or whatever. Think about Pollyanna. She saw everything through
rose-colored glasses, and I don't think it had anything to do with either cults, religions,
or politics, or even memes.
The funny phenomenon I want a word for is the way that someone only sees part of the
world once he buys into a particular mental model of the world — like how Nazis see
everything as a Jewish plot, while Scientologists see everything as mental handicaps (engrams)
caused by past injuries or by ghosts of people from another planet bothering you (no joke).
Fundamentalist Christian extremists see everything as the Last Days of the World.
And 12-Step nuts see everything wrong in this world as being caused by
"spiritual diseases" — alcoholism, drug addictions, or
codependency.
I am familiar with the idea of memes, and
have it listed
in the page about Propaganda Techniques. Repeating commonly-accepted old memes is one
way to play mind games on people. I added your links to memes there.
We — correspondents and I — have compared A.A. and other cults to viruses several times.
Once infected, you go around trying to infect others.
Personally, I prefer the imagery of vampires and werewolves. Once bitten, you turn into
one of them and then run around trying to bite others and turn them into copies
of your unholy kind.
I am not into conspiracy theories, either,
but I am very interested in history and who did what and who caused what.
I don't have much information about the links between the Rockefeller crowd and
Bill Wilson and Alcoholics Anonymous, although there is no doubt that Rockefeller
played a role in the creation of Alcoholics Anonymous.
That is a good subject for further investigation.
Have a good day.
== Orange
I have used the twelve steps to change my belief system from that of intolerance and depression to happiness and tolerance. I quit drinking for 6 years before going back to investigate AA and have found out what it does to those who stay.
Hi Clint,
Thanks for the letter.
So you had 6 years of sobriety without A.A., but you just wanted to go
join a cult anyway, and see what it would do to your head?
Why on earth would you do that?
I have been intrigued as to what is actually happening as someone works the twelve steps. I have found pretty solid explanations of the way that they work and they have nothing to do with religion (or spirituality as it were).
Well, okay, so how do they work?
You just suddenly dropped that subject without saying anything.
How about the psychological effects of
guilt induction,
confession sessions,
constant put-downs like
"Your mind is defective.
You can't trust your own thinking", and
Bill Wilson's zillion slurs and
insults to "the alcoholic"?
What about the effects of the constant
demands that you surrender
control of your will and your life to the cult?
What effects have you seen?
I am not sure about the effectiveness of the program on people who are not interested in the program or who drop out. I really am only interested in the people who stay of their own volition (because I wanted to be happy and thought I would investigate). I believe that it is someones choice to join/work the program and that is all.
You are trying to
escape with qualifiers.
People have to "really want to quit", and they have to
"work a strong program", and
then A.A. will steal the credit for their success.
And if they don't succeed in staying sober, A.A. will explain that
"they didn't really try".
You might consider the higher death rate could be attributed to the guilt that someone would feel if they took a real hardcore case and did nothing for them so in turn put those cases into the AA program because they believed that it worked. Could you imagine the guilt you would feel if you left someone out of the program if you believed that it worked?
That is nonsense.
Who cares whether you "believed that it worked"?
Imagine the guilt that you would feel if
you took a sick person
whom you really cared about
to a 12-Step meeting,
and then that person went out and died,
and later you learned that the 12-Step programs are just a cultish hoax that
rarely ever help anybody. That is what happened to me, but I'm not going to
commit suicide over it.
It would be like not operating on an appendix when you knew it would help. I am talking about IF the person actually believed that the program worked, because they would have to have some idea that it worked or else why would they do the study. That is more nonsense. You keep harping on "believed that the program worked" as if that mattered, or determined success. The A.A. program does not work, no matter whether people come to believe that it works or not.
Actually I was indoctrinated and found the social aspects to be encouraging, but relapsed after only nine months once I had moved away from the support system.
You are just giving me buzz words and slogans. "Support system"?
Fourteen years ago, I relapsed after 3 years of complete sobriety
because I thought that I could handle a few beers now.
That mistake had absolutely nothing to do with any "support system", or being
close to a support system, or away from a support system, or any such thing.
So why did you relapse?
(Oh, and you might want to consult
this list of excuses.)
If you would like to have a discussion on how the system works on people who have changed because of it, I have some insight on that subject that has some rootedness in science and I do believe that there is something of value to it. It is possible that my rewording could make this make sense to you.
I have serious doubts about that, but I am quite willing to carry on a dialogue.
I don't really need any rewording to make sense of things.
I already know how cults work. See the
Cult Test for an explanation.
Since this program does make SOME people happy it is worth mentioning to people how it really works. Scientology, the Moonies, Heaven's Gate, and even Jim Jones' People's Temple cults all make some people happy, or so they imagine. I remain unimpressed by their giddy claims. I am in no way an advocate of indoctrination against someones will. I WHOLEHEARTEDLY AGREE THAT SOMEONE WHO IS FORCED TO GO TO AA WILL FAIL AT AN ABOVE AVERAGE RATE. I also agree that it is possible to misinterpret the strange wording and actually become worse, I have seen it a bunch of times.
Excuse me, but the people who are forced into Alcoholics Anonymous ARE THE AVERAGE.
The centerfold of the
November 2002 issue of the AA Grapevine summarized the results
of the most recent triennial survey.
It showed that 61% of the current A.A. membership was "introduced
to A.A." (cute euphemism, yes?)
by the criminal justice system or health care systems.
So it is hard for the coerced people to be failing at
much more than the "average" A.A. failure
rate when they are the clear majority of Alcoholics Anonymous.
Their failure rate is the A.A. failure rate.
A.A. is a program of underhanded coercion, not a program of attraction.
And you know that. You know all about it.
You can see all of those people putting their slips into the basket
to get signatures at every meeting. Those people are coerced into that meeting
because somebody lied to the judge and fooled him into believing that A.A. was an
effective solution to the problem of alcoholism.
And people are coerced into that meeting
because 12-Step fanatics work at all of the "treatment centers" in the USA,
where they recruit more people for their favorite religion.
You will not receive any of the usual AA dribble from me as I just want to explain in plain english what happened to me.
I look forward to speaking with you,
Okay Clint, I look forward to your next letter.
Have a good day.
== Orange
[2nd letter from Clint:]
From: "Clint B." Thank you for your reply. The appendix and belief comments were to point out that the AA studies could have been biased against themselves (dumb asses). You think they would have been smart enough to cherry pick, but they believed that low bottoms responded well. WHAT EVER. My support system was just a group of friends I hung out with that I met in AA. We did things that did not involve alcohol. When I moved away from them my new friends at work were drinkers. My exact line of thought on drinking again after 9 months was this. "I am too young to be an alcoholic, drinking is fun, I can control my drinking so therefore I will have a beer." I wasn't too young, drinking was fun sometimes, I could not control my drinking after I have one, no matter how hard I have tried. After 12 years of drinking and drugging I finally stopped when this thought came into my head. "We had to fully concede to our innermost selves that we were alcoholic". I did concede to myself and haven't had a drink since. I had to admit that the sentence was taken out of the big book. So they probably are responsible in part for my quitting drinking. Orange->So you had 6 years of sobriety without A.A., but you just wanted to go join a cult anyway, and see what it would do to your head? Why on earth would you do that? Clint-> Short answer: I was already suicidal what are they going to do kill me? Long answer: I went back to the program because I still wasn't happy after all of these years of not drinking. I took anti-depressants but they just gave me diabetes (zyprexa), or ringing in my ears (welbutrin). If I wanted a real person to be pissed off at it should be the pharmaceutical companies. But I digress. The pills made me worse. So I stopped the pills and wanted to go to some kind of behavior therapy or something because I have been studying psychology and success mindsets for about 20 years which also did not fix it. I always had a sneaky suspicion that it was my beliefs that were causing my depression. My doctor is in AA and had been trying to talk me into it for like 3 years. I finally remembered all of the fun I had with those other friends and thought it might be nice to make some new friends outside of work where they did not drink. I am not too paranoid about what the members can do to my head because I don't care what they think and I know they are just people. If I do begin caring I do a step three below. This is the one mental behavior that TOTALLY changed my life and I must admit my sponsor helped me try it the first time. The only way to use AA is to find out how other people did it and maybe cheer up someone who is hating life. I set up the chairs and stuff to keep me from being lazy and bored. Here are the steps that I took which are suggested as a program of recovery.
*** http://www.webster.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?sourceid=Mozilla-search&va=care
Definition 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 and 6. *** It is possible to do all of these things outside of AA but I think we tend to degenerate without social contact and most people do not do the above things due to their conditioning. I use the program as a place to keep in touch with others who are trying to be happy without alcohol. I really don't care what they do with the stupid dollar, just like I did not care where Jack Daniels spent his money or who owned the bar that I went to.
Famous alcoholic last words:
Hope this was fun to read,
Hi again Clint,
So, you used Alcoholics Anonymous as some kind of psychotherapy, huh?
That is not was it is supposed to be about, and that is not was A.A. advertises.
It is good that you stopped making yourself miserable by worrying about what other
people thought. Still, I have doubts about some of your new steps.
In Step 4, why don't you make a list of everybody whom you love and admire, to find
out what you really believe and value?
Then, in Step 5, you can share your joy and love with somebody else.
And in Step 6 you won't have to wait for something to make you unhappy.
You can see how they give your greater happiness.
Then in Step 7 you can find the validity of love and admiration.
Making friends in Step 9 sounds good.
Have a good day.
== Orange
Last updated 9 December 2014. |
