Date: Tue, September 19, 2006 9:27 am
From: "Shannon H."
Subject: your article about the program

Hello, I just wanted to say your "theories" and "rationalizations" are ingenious. Everything you wrote has been exactly what I've been thinking since I've been in the program. I'm fairly new to it, so some of the things you've written about are foreign but I think I understand anyways. Let me just explain my story.....

I guess you could say I'm in the program both voluntarily and involuntarily. The New York State DMV has told me after several changes of their minds, that it'd be best for me to get an alcohol evaluation before they allow me to get my license back. I got a DWI four years ago. I got a DWAI three years before that. Now this automatically labels me as an alcoholic because I have no control over alcohol because i do not think of the consequences of my drinking.

Well, first off, I honestly, swear on everything I love, that I don't have a problem like they think I do. Now I know all about the denial part of the program and getting through that but I just recently admitted to an anger problem, unrelated to alcohol, so why wouldnt I be open to admit I have a problem with drinking. Even if it gets me through this program quicker. They told me to participate in group meetings and AA and 12 step meeting for twelve weeks. I have a sneaky suspicion that its gonna be alot longer than 12 weeks.

Now, the DWAI, was a mistake. I had three drinks over an eight hour period. Three of those eight hours were me standing in the frigid cold trying to get my car started so I could leave the Christmas party I was at. I was so far from intoxicated, it wasnt even funny. I passed the field sobreity tests and then the officer wasnt satisfied to he gave me a breathelizer. It was high enough for them to charge me with DWAI. According to my calculations, it was impossible. I have an unbelieveable fast metabolizm as well. Come to find out, the officer wasnt trained to give breathelizers nor had the damn thing been calibrated in a year and a half. So, without a doubt the test was wrong. I wanted to fight it and bring it to trial but my defense lawyer was a golf buddy of the judge and told me that he didnt want to upset the judge and make a mockery of his court and law enforcement colleagues and advised me to "just take the slap on the wrist". He scared me into thinking that if it goes to trial I coulda been sent to jail for longer than I wanted to be there.

But ya know what? No one cares about that. They just see that I've been convicted and that's that. The DWI a few years ago, well, I haven't an excuse except I made the best decision for the situation I was in. It happened to be the wrong one and it's that exact reason why I haven't or have not had any need for, urge to, or anything of that nature to want to put mysrelf in that kind of predicament again. I dont like the feeling of being drunk, I dont like the next mornings, I dont like the feeling of not controlling whats around me or what happening (and you can't do that if your annebriated), the affects on my health are less than desirable and I'm usually just downright too tired to drink beer not too mention the fact I dont like to drink alcohol when I'm thirsty. And I'm thirsty all the time.

My counselor said that I'm an "alcoholic in remission who manages his disease very well". If this is the case, then why do I have to go through this program. Isn't that what they want you to do? Isn't that what a recovering alcoholic does? Manages his/her disease very well? Unbelieveable.

They're threatened by those who aren't ignorant, by those who are a little educated and have common sense. A lot of what they say are the opposite of common sense. Its just straight brain washing if you ask me. It reminds me of my ten years in the Army. It's a do as we say, not as we do" type of thing.

But they have the upper hand. I can't get my license back any other way. They say that they wanna make sure that I don't get behind the wheel again drunk. That's fine but what's all this other shit have to do with it? It's like they have every angle covered. I got a hand out of all the compulsive behaviors that are tell-tale signs of an alcoholic and increases your chance of relapse. I thought I was going to lose it. Working too much? Shopping too much? Internet usage? Eating? Cleanliness? Forming relationships? EXERCISING? Come on, what the &*%#. What can you do? Are we allowed to do anything?

I think if anything, the program causes problems and if you didn't have a problem before, you will by the end of it all.

The program takes up so much of your time, that before long, all of your time is spent with those who need help that you can't give, you lose your job because you constantly have to take time off or you're in meetings until the wee hours of the night, then you go into debt, you lose your family, and before you know it, you're just like most of these guys except for the alcohol addiction. That soon changes and then the next place you find yourself in is the halfway house with the others and now the program has full control over you and you are now property basically.

It takes years and years for you to get your life back. But they have an answer for EVERYTHING! Just like those of us who are in denial. So who's right and who's wrong? I have half a mind to just roll with the punches and tell them what they want to hear but half of me doesn't want to oblige them like that. I don't feel I need to be in this program and I'm afraid with my attitude, it'll keep me in this program for a long time.

I haven't driven in three years, haven't drank more than two beers in any one sitting in just as long of time. I have complete control and always have. I've been that person who can drink one beer and that's it. I've been that person who doesn't drink at all. I've never been that person who's gotten belligerantly drunk, repeated drunken driver, pissing on myself, spilling beer and stumbling home, black out-can't remember what happened the night before drunk. NEVER! I'm a social drinker who's gotten drunk his fair share but has only once compromised his safety and the safety of others and has never let it get the best of me before or since then. I have way too much to lose and nothing to gain from this behavior. So, what do you suggest? Any help would be appreciated

Shannon

Hi Shannon,

Thank you for the letter and your story. I wish I had an easy answer for you, but I don't.

The best that I can suggest is to just go through "the program", even as stupid and insane as it is, because that's all that you can do. Then, once you are through with them, you can write and speak to expose the truth. Get your revenge that way. You should also write to your politicians — Senators and Congressmen and opposing candidates — especially right now before the election, when they might actually care about what you thinking (for a few more weeks).

And remember that you are not alone. A lot of people are going through the same bullshit. Sooner or later, the truth will out. We can do this.

And in the mean time, try to have a good day anyway.

== Orange

*             orange@orange-papers.info        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**  "If I saw a man beating a tied up horse, I could
**  not prove it was wrong, but I'd know it was wrong."
**    ==  Mark Twain

Date: Tue, September 19, 2006 6:57 pm
From: "Drew W. P."

http://home.comcast.net/~sierratangogolf/Survival_of_a_Fitting_Quotation.pdf

[DEAD LINK. See local copy here.]

Dear Sir:

I thought perhaps as you seem very concerned with the truth and as far as I can see, there is only one truth and lots of opinion, the above link. If it of value, I hope you enjoy it.

Best wishes ...

Hi Drew,

Thanks for the link. Yes, I like that essay. Michael put a lot of work into research, ferretting out the truth about that misquote that Ray Campbell and Bill Wilson mistakenly attributed to Sir Herbert Spencer.

And the thing that I find really interesting is that it sounds like something that Sir Herbert Spencer could have said. But he didn't.

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             orange@orange-papers.info        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**  The belief which we find thus questionable, both as being
**  a primitive belief and as being a belief belonging to an
**  almost-extinct family, is a belief that is not countenanced
**  by a single fact.
**    ==  Herbert Spencer, "Principles of Biology",
**         Volume 1, page 336, published 1864 to 1867.

Date: Wed, September 20, 2006 6:54 am
From: robin h
Subject: AA as Cult

Dear Orange:

I'm a social work student doing research on AA, positive and negatives. I had a look at your web cite and have a couple of questions for you:

1) In "Alcoholics anonymous as cult, scorecard, answers. . ." you list the elements of a cult and analyse AA from this framework. I can't find the source for your list. Without a "legitimate" source, I can't really use your analysis. I'd appreciate it if you would provide a reference.

2) I'd be interested in learning who you are, and what your credentials are.

Much appreciated

-Robin

Hello, Robin,

I listed some of the sources for the cult test on the introduction web page:
http://www.orange-papers.info/orange-cult.html

"And then there is this list of cult characteristics, which I have assembled from a wide variety of sources — books and magazine articles on cults, other people's descriptions of cults, and my own personal experiences with cults. It incorporates the ideas of Lifton, Singer, Schein, Hassan, and many others."

== Orange

*          orange@orange-papers.info       *
*      AA and Recovery Cult Debunking     *
*      http://www.orange-papers.info/      *
** "Now I know what it's like to be high on life.
** It isn't as good, but my driving has improved."
** == Nina, on "Just Shoot Me", 13 Jan 2006.

Date: Wed, September 20, 2006 1:06 pm
From: "Mike B."
Subject: Saved How Many Lives?!!!

Hey, Again,

Glad to see you have been enjoying your summer. I just sat here for about three minutes and came up with some names. Here they are — Keith, Phil H., Linda Kay H., Millie B., Judy G., Gloria C., Danny M., Dale R., Gary B., Dean H., Dean G., and my cousin Jeanann B. These are all long-term AA members who traded years of life because they followed the suggestions of the Big Book of ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS as outlined on page 135 and frankly just never really felt like giving up their less-serious ailment of smoking, and died from smoking-related illnesses. To these names I could, but won't add three more who will soon join their comrades in recovery.

Now, let me think... my cousin, Don B. (Jeanann's brother), Gary B., and, gee, not counting a couple suicides, that is about it for people I have known from the rooms who actually died from drug and alcohol use.

Now, let's see if I can come up with an equal or greater number of folks I know here in town with 25-year coins... Nope, the dead smokers are the majority.

I would invite all the Big Book-thumping AA Nazis to conduct the same survey in their own little realms. What the heck, make it 15 years instead of 25. Dead smokers will still be in the majority, I bet.

In my 25 years of listening (or not) to AA and NA leads, I have only ever heard one person say that you should quit smoking if you are going to set a positive example to those people you are trying to talk to about addictions.

Me (I never heard Orange lead).

Does anyone out there know PERSONALLY of anyone who has actually had a nicotine-withdrawal-induced alcoholic relapse? Me, either.

I'm thinking page 135 of the Big Book has actually killed more drunks than the other 163 pages have hypothetically saved.

Later,
Mike B.
Marion, Ohio

Hi Mike,

Thank you for the letter. That is all just so true. The death toll from tobacco is just staggering. It's monumental. It's like crashing a fully loaded Boeing 767 jet airliner into the ground every single day of the year, including Christmas. (And that's just in the USA.)

To ignore the tobacco deaths is just plain stupid. (And a great example of minimization and denial.)

One thing that so many A.A. members seem to be ignoring is: Lots of people drink to kill the pain of how bad they feel because they are so sick from smoking tobacco. It is lots, LOTS, easier for me to stay sober now that I don't smoke. There isn't any giant depressing sick-to-death feeling to mask or drown.

I think that deciding to also quit smoking, as well as quit drinking, is almost certainly the smartest, wisest decision I have made in the last 7 years. Maybe even more important than deciding to quit drinking, because tobacco also causes drinking.

And yet, I got a lot of this routine from 12-Stepper "counselors":
"Don't put too much on your plate, or something might spill off.
Don't bite off more than you can chew. Just concentrate on your recovery."

Fortunately, I ignored them and followed my own conscience. (And my own guts, which were definitely of the opinion that they didn't want any more tobacco.)

Oh well, have a good day anyway. (And it sure is easier to have a good day when you can breathe, and your chest doesn't hurt, isn't it?)

== Orange

*             orange@orange-papers.info        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *

**  "Though he is now a most effective member of Alcoholics Anonymous,
**   he still smokes and drinks coffee, but neither his wife nor
**   anyone else stands in judgement. She sees she was wrong
**   to make a burning issue out of such a matter when his more
**   serious ailments were being rapidly cured."
**   == Bill Wilson rationalizing why his wife should shut up and
**      stop telling him to quit smoking. Big Book, page 135.

Date: Thu, September 21, 2006 12:50 pm
From: "Pierrette S."
Subject: site on web about AA as a cult

I don't know who you are, but you cannot possibly grasp the spiritual basis of AA and have written what you have about AA as a cult. The hogwash you write in comparing AA to a cult is dangerous. I have 24 years of continuous sobriety — I am clearheaded, more in control of my life than ever, at peace and in harmony with all the people in my life. You have done a great disservice in putting this vile stuff up on the net.

Pierrette S.

Peace and blessings

Hello Pierrette,

Alcoholics Anonymous fails to cure alcoholics, and then lies about it. How spiritual is that?

A.A. has even been shown to increase the death rate in alcoholics. So what part of the spirituality do I not understand? Is the real goal of Alcoholics Anonymous just to get the alcoholics into Heaven sooner?

You have 24 years of sobriety and feel clear-headed because you have chosen to abstain from drinking alcohol for the last 24 years, not because you love a cult religion.

What is dangerous to alcoholics is foisting completely ineffective quackery on sick people and telling them that it is the best thing — the only program that really works.

Oh, and I like your repetition of the standard A.A. line about how telling the truth about Alcoholics Anonymous is "doing a great disservice to alcoholics". I've heard the same line so many times, from so many parrots:

• You are doing a real dis-service...

• I am afraid you are doing a great injustice to society by maintaining your website.

• Your "online book" does a great disservice to those looking for an answer.

• My dog demonstrates more care and responsibility than you do.

• ...can keep people who need real help from finding it...

• ...please try to be more responsible in espousing your version of the truth, it could prove deadly to someone.

• I feel you are doing AA a dis-service for those who CHOOSE to try it, like I did.

== Orange

*             orange@orange-papers.info        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**   How many diseases does modern medicine treat
**   with a "spiritual cure"?
**   If you get cancer, does the doctor tell you
**   to join the Pentecostals and speak in tongues?
**   If you get diabetes, is the fix to join the
**   Mormons and eat chocolate cakes?
**   So why, if you get "alcoholism", should you join
**   Alcoholics Anonymous and conduct seances to
**   hear the voice of God giving you work orders?

[2nd letter from Pierrette:]

Date: Sun, October 29, 2006     (answered 24 April 2007)
From: "Pierrette S."
Subject: Re: site on web about AA as a cult

Sending me your entire website to read is a coward's way out, I have to say. Who are you? What's your real name? How long have you been sober? Respect me enough to engage with me.

Hello again, Pierette,

I did not send you my entire web site. Please respect me enough to speak the truth to me, or at least a little bit of the truth. I sent you some links where I had already written the answers to some of your comments. That was far, far from the whole web site.

Who am I? Now I'm going to send you some links where I have already answered that, so please don't complain about me sending you my whole web site again...

1. the introduction, my introduction to A.A., and also
2. the "treatment" bait-and-switch trick,
3. who are you,
4. who are you, 2, and
5. another friend goes missing.
6. the story about "Rat Park".

I've been sober for 6 1/2 years now.

As I said, I have 24 years — I am not trying to "recruit" you, and I have never responded to websites about AA, but your tone is so hostile, your conclusions are so wrong in their extremism that I have to respond — just for me and because the spiritual principles of AA have given me life itself. It is such a shame that you met with a few fanatics (doesn't every organization have them?) and a few admittedly threatening people (our society is dangerous place) and have allowed these people to create such virulent hatred in you.

No, that isn't it. I did meet some objectionable characters, but what really matters to me is the fact that Alcoholics Anonymous is just so much quackery and cult religion, and it is foisted on hundreds of thousands, or even millions, of sick people with lies declaring that it is really good stuff that has saved millions...

Which isn't true at all.

"Of alcoholics who came to A.A. and really tried, 50% got sober at once and remained that way; 25% sobered up after some relapses, and among the remainder, those who stayed on with A.A. showed improvement."
William G. Wilson, in "The Big Book" Alcoholics Anonymous, in the 1955 Foreword to the Second Edition, page XX.

I actually did click around a bit and all I hear are angry, illogical statements (supported by weak research) by you that in fact only highlight in relief the opposite — AA's philosophy of love, tolerance, and acceptance.

Weak research? No, I have the best research available. It is Alcoholics Anonymous that uses weak research, and rigged "studies", and outright lies to promote its program.

For example, sure there are some who think that AA is the only answer (my sponsor is one of them who happens to have 33 years of sobriety), but my sponsor also honors and respects that we are ALL being lead by a higher power and that this entity of love will direct my path, not her. I could respond to many, many (perhaps even all) of your statements. But one keeps staying with me. Yes, AA is a spiritual program. Why does that bother you so badly?

A.A. is not a spiritual program. A.A. is a superstitious program. There is nothing spiritual about lying to sick people about how well a suggested treatment works. A.A. begins every meeting by reciting lists of Bill Wilson's lies from pages 58 through 60 of the Big Book, like "RARELY HAVE we seen a person fail, who has thoroughly followed our path.", which is intended to fool the newcomers into thinking that the A.A. program actually works, which it doesn't.

The 12 Steps are not "spiritual" — they are the cult recruiting practices of Dr. Frank Nathan Daniel Buchman.

Anyone with a brain and a heart and a soul can gradually discern the distinction between a science and a spirituality — I am not confused about the two and I don't know anyone in AA who feels that AA is passing itself off as a psuedo-science.

You don't know? Well let me enlighten you. Read these articles:

1. A.A.-Booster Pseudo-Science: Spirituality: The key to recovery from alcoholism
   
2. More A.A.-Booster Pseudo-Science: The Spiritual Dimension of Healing
3. The Renascent Treatment Center's propaganda
4. More A.A.-Booster Propaganda: the book Cults: Faith, Healing, and Coercion, by Marc Galanter
5. The Humphreys-Moos faked studies at the Palo Alto Veteran's Center
6. more from Rudolf H. Moos

There is a regular A.A. propaganda mill just cranking out those phony pseudo-science articles by the dozens, just some more pro-A.A. publicity that has the goal of keeping the flow of tax dollars into the 12-Step-based treatment centers, and ensuring the flow of sentenced newcomers coming into the A.A. meetings.

Finally, AA does not hide the fact that it's statistics are poor; why should that keep all of us from trying to get and stay sober? And if AA helps even %5, isn't it worth it?

A.A. does not even score 5%. The apparent 5% success rate at the one-year point is just normal spontaneous remission. That is the success rate of people who quit on their own. A.A. cannot claim that it saved those people. When you subtract the people who would have quit anyway from the apparent A.A. success rate, you get: Five minus five equals zero. That is the real A.A. achievement — no additional sobriety. And that was even verified by a doctor who is a member of the Board of Trustees of Alcoholics Anonymous World Services, Inc. — Dr. and Prof. George E. Vaillant.

Oh, and that's some of that solid research that you were wishing for — really good, solid long-term research done by a man who is both a doctor and a professor of psychology at Harvard University. And he just loves A.A. and he thinks that everybody should get shoved into A.A., even though A.A. does not work and it just raises the death rate. He said that.

I am one of those who believed that if I followed the guidelines I would get and stay sober and I have. This is my only response to this statistic.

You may have believed that, but that does not make it true.

You are assuming a cause and effect relationship between working the A.A. program and quitting drinking. There is no evidence to support that belief. The real evidence says that people quit when they wish to. When they get tired of suffering, then they decide to quit drinking. And in your case, you then also decided to join a cult and follow their program. And to become a true believer.

But I don't know anyone who really believes that AA is the only way — not even my sponsor — just the way that worked for them. One of the greatest principles of AA is "take what you like, and leave the rest." Sometimes I take more, sometimes less — I have a great mind now, thanks to sobriety and AA, and I now have the ability to choose the direction of my own life — this is the 12th step in action. I also have a great sense of self, so I distinguish between a safe environment and one that is not.

Hmmm. The 12th Step says, "Go recruiting for fresh meat (carry the message to alcoholics), and also practice these principles in all of our affairs."

But there are no spiritual principles in the 12 Steps. The 12 Steps are Buchmanite cult PRACTICES, not spiritual principles. Doing Buchman's practices does not improve people's lives.

Now I agree that your life was improved by sobriety. When you stop poisoning yourself with alcohol, your life usually gets much better.

I'm so sorry that you came across a few very flawed people.

Pierrette S.

Peace and blessings

My objections to Alcoholics Anonymous are not a matter of having found "a few very flawed people." My objections are to what A.A. actually is, and what it teaches, and what it does to people.

Have a good day.

== Orange

*             orange@orange-papers.info        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
** Rev. Jim Jones said, "Drink the red koolaid. It
** has cured millions. RARELY HAVE we seen it fail...
** But then again, the green koolaid is good too.
** Take what you want, and leave the rest."

Date: Thu, September 21, 2006 3:43 pm
From: "Paul N."
Subject: Pupose of Your Web Site

Please help me understand the purpose of your website.

Sincerely,
Paul N.

Hi Paul,

It is to publish the truth about alcoholism, Alcoholics Anonymous, and recovery.

Have a good day.

== Orange

*             orange@orange-papers.info        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**  Back when the Iraq war was looking good, the Republican rap was,
**  "Look at how George W. Bush is saving us from the terrorists."
**  "Look at what a great and brave leader President Bush is."
**  Now that it's an obvious failure, another Big Lie, and another
**  Vietnam quagmire, they whine, "The Democrats voted for it too."

[Response from Paul A. N.]

Date: Sat, October 28, 2006 11:42 am
From: "Paul A. N."
Subject: Re: Pupose of Your Web Site

Thanks for writing me back. I guess where we differ, is on the definition of the word truth.

You too have a good day.

Paul

[Answered 23 April 2007]

Hello Paul,

In looking back through my email, I realize that I never answered your reply.

My definition of "truth" is the same one as in the dictionary:

Truth \Truth\, n.; pl. {Truths}. [OE. treuthe, trouthe, treowpe,
   AS. tre['o]w?. See {True}; cf. {Troth}, {Betroth}.]
   1. The quality or being true; as:
      (a) Conformity to fact or reality; exact accordance with
          that which is, or has been; or shall be.
          [1913 Webster]
      (b) Conformity to rule; exactness; close correspondence
          with an example, mood, object of imitation, or the
          like.
          [1913 Webster]

== Orange

*             orange@orange-papers.info        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**  "We could have saved the Earth but we were too damned cheap."
**   ==  Kurt Vonnegut

Date: Thu, September 21, 2006 5:27 pm
From: "jessica m."
Subject: more info please

I was a self-proclaimed "recovering alcoholic" for three plus years. I recently was able to pull my head out of my ass and stop going to AA six months ago.

I really like your website and am pretty blown away by your bibliography. I am interested in reading more of your book.

But, who are you? What is your story? I tried to look you up but Agent Orange is a fairly HUGE hit on Google and I didn't see any links on your website for who you are.

Thanks for doing what you're doing.

Jessica

Hi Jessica,

Thanks for all of the compliments.

The "who are you" question comes in every so often. Here is the standard set of answers:

• the introduction, my introduction to A.A., and also
• the "treatment" bait-and-switch trick,
• another friend goes missing,
• who are you,
• who are you, 2, and
• the story about "Rat Park".

== Orange

*             orange@orange-papers.info        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**  "A tyrant must put on the appearance of uncommon
**  devotion to religion. Subjects are less apprehensive
**  of illegal treatment from a ruler whom they consider
**  god-fearing and pious. On the other hand, they do
**  less easily move against him, believing that he has
**  the gods on his side." — Aristotle

Date: Thu, September 21, 2006 6:51 pm
From: gg
Subject: thanks for the info

Hello Orange,

I appreciate your trip through Buchmanism. I had heard about that connection a while ago and at the time I was suprised that anything as "democratic" and loose-knit and non-dogmatic as AA could be linked with fascism. In it's infancy, recovered drunks even argued strenuously about the inclusion or exclusion of God or "God" in their book and meetings. Some thought it better to present a fellowship with social attraction, and spring the "God-thing" later. Others felt the far opposite, but there was some sort of a compromise and I guess it was decided that it would be dishonest and trickery to omit "God" completely.

Hi GG,

Thanks for the letter. Yes, historically, A.A. members have been on both sides of the fence on that issue. But Jim Burwell, the village atheist, finally got converted and became a true believer.

Compared to typical religion, it's hard to be less dogmatic than "God as we understood Him", meaning of course individual choice and open searching, IMO. As a matter of fact, some of the evangelical Christian rightwingnuts in America see AA as some Satanic apostasy due to the "God as you understand Him" clause and reliance on meditation instead of Biblical authority. (There are some potential risks with "God as you understand Him" — God could be a neighbor's dog telling you to kill people — but there's a general understanding of a Spirit which is Good and Unselfish and Forgiving ... and we all need a sense of forgiveness.)

Part of the undogmatic freedom of religion is merely a bait-and-switch trick, you know. You can't really have just any Higher Power you want. Bedpan Almighty as I understand Him, for instance, does not help people to quit drinking, not ever. He likes people pissing more.

I personally am a member of AA in good standing, i.e. sober 19 years. I too found AA very hokey at some points. Sober dances in Detroit with slick DJs were pretty cool, but sober dances in Akron have a tendency towards schmaltz or frat party or country bowling night. I certainly appreciated ICYPAA in New York City with some top NY House Music DJs. Different cultures projected within AA.

(Oddly, some complained it was like a bar scene ... so what ... I loved some of the hipper bar scenes ... it was just the chemical cocktail in my bloodstream that wasn't working.)

Some members I know would seem to do well in the MRA scene, very much into rules and authoritarianism. I argued with one about asking people to leave "closed meetings" if they were non-alcoholic, "you have to go", vs. letting them stay and explaining to them afterwards, with politeness and concern, the reason and purpose for closed meetings. This guy was putting rules ahead of principles of compassion and "charity" i.e. helping another person and making them feel welcome.

Myself, if I had not been exposed to Taoism and other more reality-rooted viewpoints (and hallucinogens) in my youth, I might not have been able to mentally translate the written AA into something I could live with, a little bit of God, a little bit of Jesus, a little bit of Tao, a little bit of punk and rock poetry, a little bit of pop culture rhetoric where it fits.

I never had to "give up" on intellect, though I did have to try to give up my internal arguments, give it a rest, put "Reason" on the back burner for a while. Some imply that Reason or Thinking is bad, but it was just that my logic was tainted with too much illogic and emotionally-driven conclusions, self-deception, fear. After a time, I was able to slide back into Reason and Logic with more confidence, and even be able to develop my logic and reason to a higher degree.

What? If your logic was "tainted", then it wasn't logic. Stopping thinking is not the cure for bad logic.

You know, what you are describing is one of the classic text-book characteristics of a mind-controlling cult: 67. Don't Trust Your Own Mind. They taught you not to trust your own thinking.

Now that is not to be confused with the yammering and complaining of the Lizard Brain Addiction Monster as it demands its creature comforts. But that little's toad's jabber is not "your thinking" — it is merely the wheedling of a stupid little animal that wants to feel good.

And of course you also got 90. Newcomers Need Fixing. That one is tricky, because of course you really did need to quit drinking and recover your health. But what the cult wants to fix in you is other things, like your "spirituality" and your "faith", which has nothing to do with quitting drinking.

I think it's possible that AA was rescued in some ways by the inclusion of hippies and alcoholic drug users, towards some useful shifts in culture towards inclusivity and harmony.

Rescued? I think A.A. is over the hill and will eventually die out.

I think that Hitler and Fascism has very little to do with modern AA (at least where I live). I wish I could say the same thing about Herr President Bush's Nazi past ... but that chain of fascism is very much alive.

Current A.A. does not worship Hitler or the Nazis, but a lot of the religious dogma is still pure Buchmanism — you have been defeated by sin (alcohol) — you are "insane" — you are just a pathetic sinner — only surrender to God can save you — confession is necessary for God to like you — you must make amends — you must listen to God for your work orders every day — you must obey — you must go recruiting — you must go to meetings....

Gary G.

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false."
— William Casey, CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)

"I never would have agreed to the formulation of the Central Intelligence Agency back in '47, if I had known it would become the American Gestapo. "
— Harry S Truman (1961)

"The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed, and thus clamorous to be led to safety, by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary."
— Henry L. Mencken (1880-1956)

All propaganda must be so popular and on such an intellectual level, that even the most stupid of those toward whom it is directed will understand it... Through clever and constant application of propaganda, people can be made to see paradise as hell, and also the other way around, to consider the most wretched sort of life as paradise.
— Adolf Hitler

"The technotronic era involves the gradual appearance of a more controlled society.
Such a society would be DOMINATED by an elite, unrestrained by traditional values
(of Liberty).
Soon it will be possible to assert almost continuous surveillance over every citizen
and maintain up-to-date complete files containing even the most personal information
about the citizen. These files will be subject to instantaneous retrieval by the
authorities."
— Zbigniew Brzezinski ~ quoted on Deep Black Lies

Kings had always been involving and impoverishing their people in wars, PRETENDING generally, if not always, that the good of the people was the object.
— Abraham Lincoln

"We can't be so fixated on our desire to preserve the rights of ordinary Americans."
— President Bill Clinton, U.S.A. Today, 11 March 1993

"It is the sacred principles enshrined in the United Nations charter to which the American people will henceforth pledge their allegiance."
— President George Bush addressing the General Assembly of the U.N. February 1, 1992

"I believe that if the people of this nation fully understood what Congress has done to them over the last 49 years, they would move on Washington; they would not wait for an election....It adds up to a preconceived plan to destroy the economic and social independence of the United States!"
--George W. Malone, U.S. Senator (Nevada), speaking before Congress in 1957.

"Military Men are just DUMB STUPID ANIMALS to be Used as Pawns in Foreign Policy."
~ Henry Kissinger

"All we need is the right major crisis and the nations will accept the New World Order."
— David Rockefeller

"The process of transformation, even if it brings revolutionary change, is likely to be a long one, absent some catastrophic and catalyzing event — like a new Pearl Harbor" (2000)
— Project for a New American Century (Bush cabinet)

The FAILURE [in Iraq] DOESN'T MATTER for the planners of the operation. The main aim — establishing a PERMANENT GARRISON in the country — has been achieved. ~ Uri Avnery, Israeli activist, former IDF Colonel

"I wouldn't go to war again as I have done to protect some lousy investment of the bankers. There are only two things we should fight for.
One is the defense of our homes and the other is the Bill of Rights.
War for any other reason is simply a racket."
— Major General Smedley Butler, Two-time recipient of the Medal of Honor and Commandant USMC

"Of all the enemies to public liberty, WAR is the most to be dreaded because it comprises and develops the germ of every other.
War is the parent of armies; from these proceed DEBTS and TAXES ... known instruments for bringing the MANY under the DOMINATION of the FEW. . .
NO nation could preserve its FREEDOM in the midst of CONTINUAL WARFARE."
— James Madison, Political Observations, 1795

Thanks for all of the quotes. Those are good.

And have a good day.

== Orange

*             orange@orange-papers.info        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
** "When in the company of deluded people, keep your
**   own counsel."  ==  Buddha

[2nd letter from G.G.:]

Date: Mon, October 30, 2006 7:22 am
From: gg
Subject: Re: thanks for the info

Dude,

you really over exaggerate

As for the 'Bedpan Almighty', certainly while the bait and switch is to "God", that "God" remains undefined. Some go all whacked out on Christianity. Some become (or remain) nominal Christians as are many Americans. Christmas, etc. Some prefer other religions or explore Taoism which is like a religion with no gods. I'm not saying there's no "God" in AA, it's just not heavy handed, least heavy handed compared to any ordinary church or synagogue.

As for needing spiritual uplift, with myself as the judge of my own condition, I needed to be able to 'let go' of my ego. I didn't understand that, but later on I was able to see parallels between that concept of 'letting go' in hippie terms, gettin' in the groove, etc. Nowadays, some young people 'let go' on House Music, with or without Ecstasy at some raves. To me, the spiritual dimension of AA was one other way to describe the same territory, and a method to get there without having to be

• a) dancing
• b) drinking
• c) tweaking or spacing on any drugs
• d) listening to Led Zeppelin.

Hence, something you can do at work or any time.

Given my condition, this went far beyond the mere animal brain seeking comfort. I know myself, and I understand what was wrong with me, in retrospect, and a personality change 'at depth' was needed. My personality was fear-based and wired to need alcohol to cope with being with myself. I'm very glad I got my head 'shrunk' via the AA process rather than some professional 'shrink'. I remained an active participant, I got independence, I didn't need to submit to any medication routine, nor submit my deepest secrets to someone who had the authority to lock me up.

I personally am not a 'heavy' in any AA dogma. I hardly know anyone who is, some more than others. Maybe in some parts of the country. People have a tendency to get obsessive about things, but that's people.

I'm too lazy to debate further, and I'm sure you're happy with your little gig, so enjoy it. I'm just not convinced that AA is some corrosive or destructive cult. I am slightly convinced that some people take the passivity of live and let live a little to literally, considering serious stuff like From Freedom to Fascism, but plenty of non-AA non-religious people are equally passive.

GG

Date: Fri, September 22, 2006 10:01 am
From: "Andy M."
Subject: Dear Orange,

Since first coming across your site about a month ago, I have read it all with great interest. I was familiar with some of the murky backround of Frank Buchman and his Oxford Group Movement a.k.a. Moral Rearmament, but I had no idea that his sympathies with Fascism went as far as your researches clearly indicate they did. I have actually owned and read one of the ghastly sycophantic biographies of Buchman by Garth Lean. I'm pretty sure it was the "Tail of a Comet" one. It had me laughing out loud in places, a masterpiece of pompous unintentional humour. I seem to remember that it quoted letters written home to his mother from the seminary by Buchman saying things along the lines of "Dear Mummy, I have a divinely ordained mission to save the world. Please send me more money so that I can keep up the good work." I must confess that I have also laughed out loud at the awful, corny and pretentious verbiage that comprises AA "literature", most especially those cloyingly unctuous homilies in "As Bill Sees It".

I grew up in the UK and still live here, so I actually live in the country where the Oxford Group phenomenon had its greatest successes, but it is interesting that today it is virtually unheard of here except by the minority of AA members who bother to look into the history of the fellowship. Oxford Group ideas and practices only survive in AA, and their true nature and origin is rarely understood by the people exposed to them. If they really understood that the beliefs and practices which they are encouraged to subscribe to had their origin with a crackpot heretic preacher with strange occult beliefs, serious sexual hang-ups and an unashamed admiration for Adolf Hitler, I am sure that they would think twice, but of course newcomers to AA are not honestly and fairly apprised of the relevant facts.

Although Buchman and the Oxford Group are probably virtually unheard of here today by people too young to remember the Second World War, I well remember that my late father recalled clearly the great shock and controversy caused by Buchman's praise of Hitler, when I asked him a few years ago if he was familiar with Buchman's religious movement. He also remembered and despised the Quisling behaviour of those Oxford Groupers who dodged the draft.

Of course, it is next to impossible to discuss any of the matters you discuss or any reasonable doubts or misgivings concerning the received untruths purveyed by AA within the context of an AA meeting, although I do occasionally show up at a meeting and express my point of view. It makes me as popular as a fart in an elevator, but I am past caring what believers in the 12 steps think about me, and who knows, a newcomer might even get a little bit of hope from someone saying from personal experience that it is entirely possible for someone with an alcohol problem to stay sober without subscribing to an occult belief system.

Finally, I would like to thank you for giving me some badly needed hope when I was feeling very low and embattled as a result of the attitudes of step-Nazis. I have what some people term a dual diagnosis, in that I am bipolar as well as alcoholic, and of course some shit-heads around AA rooms are not above making malicious use of their knowledge of this to try to upset or compomise me. Consequently I have to be very judicious about showing up at meetings and saying outspoken things .

Anyway, thank you so much for all the work you have done. I can't say how much it means to know that there are other thinking and feeling people who see through this awful attempt at mind-control and spiritual fascism. Though your site I discovered and read the work of various other people with broadly similar views, and it has given me a great deal of hope.

All the best,
keep up the good work,
Andy

Hi Andy,

Thanks for a very interesting letter, and thanks for the compliments. How I wish I could have talked with your father. He must have really seen some history. What a grand epic melodrama it all was.

Have a good day.

== Orange

*             orange@orange-papers.info        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**  "Early AA got it's ideas of self-examination,
**  acknowledgement of character defects, restitution for
**  harm done, and working with others straight from the
**  Oxford Groups and directly from Sam Shoemaker, their
**  former leader in America, and nowhere else."
**  == Bill Wilson, Alcoholics Anonymous Comes of
**  Age, page 39.

Date: Sun, September 24, 2006 9:19 am
From: Egretqueen
Subject: what about the anger thing?

The 12 step people insist that anger is an inevitable way to return to drinking. This is a SERIOUS flaw in the AA cult-like rhetoric. Anger is a part of being human, and this group of converts are asking us to give up so much of our humanity.

There is no doubt that life is unfair, and drinking excesively makes everything worse. However, asking a woman to not be pissed off at an abusive situation, or anyone who has been victimized, is insane, as far as I'm concerned. I was sober for 20 years, I went to NA and AA regularly for 10 (or more) of those years.

I gave up on all of it , and now I am drinking alcoholically again. I dread going back to AA. I always had a mind of my own during the years in AA ans NA, and I swear the people thought a bolt of lightning would smite me every time I critisized the "progam". I specifically looked at the 12 step thing from a feminist point of view, and I guess that was not to the liking of (especially) male members of the group.

Anyway, I need to stop drinking. I have several chronic illnesses, which led me to drink in the first place. I controlled it for a long time, but i have become uncomfortable in the amount I drink. Some of what I learned in AA was true, some not. But I just want to stop without listening to the constant reiteration of the 12 step philosophy (or, as you say, "cult")

Thanks for reading this
Lisa

Hi Lisa,

Thanks for the letter. It sounds like you are ready to quit drinking, without Alcoholics Anonymous. Good.

This is my handy list of non-A.A. groups and methods. They have a lot of different flavors and attitudes. Perhaps you will find something here that you like.

• SMART: Self Management And Recovery Training.
  http://www.smartrecovery.org/
  Rational, sane, common-sense recovery techniques. Based on Rational Emotive Behavioral Therapy, the brainchild of Dr. Albert Ellis.
• SMART online chat groups, http://smartrecovery.infopop.cc/paraentry.php, and
• SMART message boards, http://smartrecovery.infopop.cc/eve/ubb.x

• WFS (Women For Sobriety) also has online chat groups:
  http://www.womenforsobriety.org/news_conferences/chat.html
• For local group meetings in your area you can also call 1-800-333-1606.

• LifeRing provides live, online meetings on the Internet:
  http://www.unhooked.com/chat/Chat.html — the Unhooked chat

• http://groups.yahoo.com/group/12-step-free — Self-described as: 'This is a large yahoo group of ex-AA and ex-"XA" (meaning any "anonymous" program based on the 12 steps originally created by AA) people. It is very open to debate and free thinking, but it's main point is for those needing to be free of the 12 steps.'

• http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/LSRmail/ — a Yahoogroup, "LifeRing Secular Recovery"

• http://groups.yahoo.com/group/without_aa/ — Without A.A.

• http://groups.msn.com/X-STEPPERS/welcome.msnw — This is an ex-stepper group on MSN.
  UPDATE: They moved. The new URL is:
  http://xsteppers.multiply.com/

• http://groups.google.com/group/alt.recovery.from-12-steps/ — the newsgroup alt.recovery.from-12-steps

• You can also get some more links from the start of the links page.

== Orange

*             orange@orange-papers.info        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**  If alcoholism is really a disease, then A.A. sponsors are
**  guilty of practicing medicine without a license. They are
**  also guilty of treating a life-threatening illness without
**  having any medical education or training.  They have never
**  gone to medical school, and never done an internship or
**  residency, and yet they presume to be qualified to make
**  life-or-death decisions in the patients' treatment. That
**  is what you call quackery.

P.S. I forgot to mention the Lizard Brain Addiction Monster. Definitely read that.

Date: Sun, October 22, 2006 12:17 pm     (Answered 20 Feb 2007)
From: Egretqueen
Subject: Re: what about the anger thing?

Hi Orange,

I would just like to thank you for your replies and generous use of your time. You appear to be an enourmously talented researcher and writer, which I might be had been if I had not become ill and also had courage that you have.

I deeply appreciate you and your emails. I do have doctors; too many, in fact. but the balance between pain management and addiction is precarious. My friends and I, who began recovery in the 12 step groups over 20 years ago, are aging and fighting to maintain sobriety. I said to hell with it and began to drink. Life of suffering became not so different, sober or not.

Anyway, thank you from the recesses of soul,
Lisa

Hi again Lisa,

Thanks again for all of the compliments. Sorry to take so long to answer this letter; I've been way backlogged in answering email.

I hope you are feeling better. May I suggest finding your own path somehow? Obviously you are not happy with the 12-Step routine, and it isn't doing you any good. But you don't have to drink because A.A. is a failure.

I appreciate your remark about the difficulty of balancing pain management with avoiding addiction. That is a terribly difficult tightrope to walk, and you are performing without a net. Still, it seems like you don't have to despair and resign yourself to drinking too much just because you can't totally abstain. You might be happier if you could find some middle ground or middle path somewhere. That's just a suggestion, not a guaranteed cure-all solution.

Take care of yourself, and have a good day.

== Orange

*             orange@orange-papers.info        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**  The only tyrant I accept in this world
**  is the small still voice within me.
**     ==   Mahatma Gandhi

Date: Sun, September 24, 2006 9:20 am
From: "RAYMOND C."
Subject: Hi Orange

Hi Orange,

Hope your doing well. Letting you know you have a copy cat in Yahoo.

http://profiles.yahoo.com/aa_orange_papers?intl=us&os=win&ver=7,0,0,437

Take Care and Stay Safe,

Ray

Hmmm... Interesting. Thanks for the tip. So far, he hasn't done anything — no web pages, no postings... I'll have to check on him every so often and see what his game is.

Thanks again, and have a good day.

== Orange

*             orange@orange-papers.info        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
** "Now I know what it's like to be high on life.
** It isn't as good, but my driving has improved."
** == Nina, on "Just Shoot Me", 13 Jan 2006.

Date: Sat, September 23, 2006 2:17 pm
From: "Mvega"
Subject: Re: OMG! Is this for real?

Keep an eye out for this one....it's a documentary.

kind of reminded me of "hitler's youth" back in the 1930's

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=co1_9lR9EpM&eurl=

Hi again, Mvega,

Yeh, really. It very much reminds me of the Hitlerjugend. What bothers me is that the majority of the American people either don't see the similarity, or don't care.

Oh well, have a good day anyway.

== Orange

*             orange@orange-papers.info        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
** "Now I know what it's like to be high on life.
** It isn't as good, but my driving has improved."
** == Nina, on "Just Shoot Me", 13 Jan 2006.

Date: Sat, September 23, 2006 8:27 pm
From: "Mvega"
Subject: Re: OMG! Is this for real?

Yes! Very true.

Date: Sat, September 23, 2006 7:14 pm
From: "Sharen K."
Subject: Are You Doing OK?

Hi Again, Orange!

Are you doing OK? I haven't heard from you for a while!

~Sharen

(Ever since I was a teenager, anyone who didn't have a chronically manic personality seemed half dead to me, smirk, smirk.)

Hi Sharen,

Yes, doing great. Sometimes I just get sidetracked and work on other things, or goof off and play in the sunshine. I'm getting as much of it as I can before winter closes in and ends the fun.

Have a good day.

== Orange

*             orange@orange-papers.info        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**   "Laughter is the best medicine,
**   and it's cheaper."
**    ==  Victor Borge

Date: Sun, September 24, 2006 1:28 am
From: human_race
Subject: Started my own site....

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AlcoholicsAnonymousDoesntWork/

Good luck. Yahoo Geocities erased my whole web site because someone (guess who?) complained that it was "offensive" or "controversial".

See: http://www.orange-papers.info/orange-censored.html

And have a good day.

== Orange

Date: Sun, September 24, 2006 1:35 am
From: human_race
Subject: Hmmm thoughts...

I guess I'd like to be able to do what you have done with your site... it's actually quite an excellent job.

But it takes LOTS of time and Lots of effort and Lots of research.. so since my life is heading in different directions, and it's pointless and dumb to recreate the wheel... I want to do my own site about my own experiences in AA and NA and such like and to speak up about all the experiences..

Some of it was really good, but mostly it's pretty fucked overall....

Anyway... Life Goes On

Regards

Shane.

Hi again, Shane,

Thanks for the compliments, and I'm glad to hear about the new web site. Come on in, the water's fine, and there's plenty of room for everybody. And there are still a zillion stories that are still untold, and a zillion other viewpoints to hear from.

Have a good day, and have fun with your web site.

== Orange

*             orange@orange-papers.info        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**    "Iraq Is All but Won; Now What?"
**    (Los Angeles Times headline, 4/10/2003)

Date: Sun, September 24, 2006 4:05 pm
From: human_race
Subject: Re: Started my own site....

[RE: the "guess who?" question in the response to the first letter.]

Lemmee Guess? It wasn't them wonderful spiritual folks in Arseholes Anonymous was it?

Umm, don't know for sure. Yahoo would not talk to me or explain anything. I just got one form letter, period, telling me that "appropriate action had been taken against my account." Yahoo doesn't really give you an email address where you can talk to them. I had to use the "abuse hotline" email address to ask them if they had been hacked.

Well I expect it to be up for some time, and I can keep detailed records of it.....

Then when it goes tit's up.. I can by that time... get enough skills to draft up and run my own independently hosted site.

Plus, there are many other free hosts, like Tripod. The only problem I had with Tripod was that I outgrew it. — Way, way outgrew it. They have like a 1 Gigabyte per month limit on bandwidth usage. I'm now using more than that per day, and it's still going up. (Used 2 GB on the day of 10 October, which was a new record.) And then the amount of disk space you can use is limited too, and I exhausted that too. But still, you can do a lot in that much space.

Then the choice is to upgrade to a paid-for Tripod account or move to better quarters.

And yeah I can see a high court challenge coming up to stop AA etc., from sticking their noses in the Australian treatment centers and prisons.

I sure hope so. The challenges should be coming all over the world.

It's a constitutional issue you see.

Yes.

I am also going to start buying a stack of CD's to burn your site onto, to take them to the local meetings and I am going to start challenging the "pack mentality"..

Thanks.

"Rarely have we seen a person....."

"Umm no that's not right Wilson said here in / on, that they only had a few out of hundreds to take the bait...

Vaillants study etc. etc. etc....

Etc....

LOL

OBTW

There is also an excerpt... I don't know if you picked up on this.

Bill Wilson wrote it up some where... (been looking for it)

"In the early days our failures were legion" So, on this late Fall afternoon in 1937, Smithy and I were talking together in his living room, Anne sitting there when we began to count noses. How many people had stayed dry; in Akron, in New York, maybe a few in Cleveland? How many had stayed dry and for how long? And when we added up the total, it sure was a handful of, I don't know, 35, 40 maybe. But enough time had elapsed on enough really fatal cases of alcoholism, so that we grasped the importance of these small statistics. Bob and I saw for the first time that this thing was going to succeed. That God in His providence and mercy had thrown a new light into the dark caves where we and our kind had been and were still dwelling by the millions. I never can forget the elation and ecstasy that seized us both. And then we sat happily talking and reflecting. We reflected that well, a couple of score of drunks were sober but this had taken three long years. There had been an immense amount of failure and a long time had been taken just to sober up the handful.

I think this has been rephrased in another of Bills writings.. (In the early days for every person who got sober,) "Our failures were leigon"

It might be in AA comes of age, their noble struggle bullshit...

Yes, Bill Wilson had an outrageous case of delusions of grandeur.

I know of a very similar quote, just rephrased a little. In his history of Alcoholics Anonymous (AACOA), Bill Wilson wrote:

It was on a November day in that year [1937] when Dr. Bob and I sat in his living room, counting the noses of our recoveries. There had been failures galore, but now we could see some startling successes too. A hard core of very grim, last-gasp cases had by then been sober a couple of years, an unheard-of development. There were twenty or more such people. All told we figured that upwards of forty alcoholics were staying bone dry.
      As we carefully rechecked this score, it suddenly burst upon us that a new light was shining into the dark world of the alcoholic. Despite the fact that Ebby had slipped, a benign chain reaction, one alcoholic carrying the good news to the next, had started outward from Doctor Bob and me. Conceivably it could one day circle the whole world. What a tremendous thing that realization was! At last we were sure. There would be no more flying totally blind. We actually wept for joy, and Bob and Anne and I bowed our heads in silent thanks.
Alcoholics Anonymous Comes Of Age, William G. Wilson, page 76.

Bill Wilson was literally delusional.

Yeah the bullshit contrast.... this came up in the searching.