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Date: Fri, June 24, 2011 4:34 am (answered 28 June 2011) Mister T, Thank you for all you do. I can't help but count. I now count the days since my last 12-step meeting. I thought I would have no place to go without the cult but I have found the "New Beginnings Community Center" for brain injury rehabilitation. I volunteer there every day I can. I will try never to mention my 30+ years in the cults. If 12-step cults come up I will point people to your work. I know you are extremely busy but if you have not seen this please read www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/pmc2739250/ Thank you again. Long Island Bob O.
Hello again, Bob,
I hope your volunteer work is pleasant and positive. That is a really good thing to be doing.
About the study:
I knew that it was bullshit as soon as I saw the authors quote Moos four times in a row
at the start of the paper.
When you see a lot of references to Moos and Moos, and Humphreys and Moos, you know that you are
looking at another piece of non-scientific garbage that just intends to fool you into thinking that
the 12-Step cult is good. The Moos and Moos and Humphreys and Moos teams are a bunch of
professional propagandists for the 12-Step treatment racket.
They crank out zillions of papers that try to claim that A.A. did something good, but they never
do proper scientific or medical testing to establish a real cause-and-effect relationship.
They never do a true
randomized longitudinal controlled study
to determine how well A.A. really works.
I have criticized their fake studies before.
Look here and
here.
Another glaring sign of bullshit is the fact that this study had no control group.
There was no group of people who got neither treatment nor A.A., to see how many of
those people quit drinking without the 12-Step superstition.
The lack of a control group means that this is a worthless exercise in number-shuffling
that does not and can not establish whether A.A. makes alcoholics quit drinking.
Likewise, they also cannot establish whether treatment did anything good.
No control group.
What the authors of this paper were trying to establish was some kind
of correlation between going to treatment and
then going to a lot of A.A. meetings. What a waste of paper and type.
Most "treatment programs" simply
tell people to go to A.A. meetings, so of course people who go to treatment
often then go to a bunch of meetings afterwards, for a while,
until they quit going, which is often pretty soon.
The authors observed that many people who went to meetings gradually dropped out and quit going.
They divided the people into four groups, depending on how many meetings they went to, and how soon
they quit.
They also distinguished between unbelievers and fervent believers.
And then they tried to draw some conclusions.
They tried to infer "an association" between going to more A.A. meetings and increased sobriety, but
they didn't really establish any such relationship. All that they really established is that
in all of the groups, people quit going to meetings and resumed drinking,
which shows that treatment has no "holding power". Meaning, the effects don't last.
The authors slipped all kinds of invalid assumptions into the paper, like this:
The authors assumed that A.A. meetings "inculcated an abstemious lifestyle", totally ignoring the
fact that people really learn from bad experiences like getting so sick from alcohol that they need
hospitalization or detoxing. That is what gets people to quit drinking.
Then the authors assumed that alcoholics had a "need for heavy
meeting attendance and activities", which is an A.A. belief that is completely unsupported by any
facts. The truth is that A.A. meetings do not make alcoholics quit drinking or keep them sober.
Then the authors parrotted
the standard cultish phobia induction
that declares that you will die if you leave the cult, or even just cut down on meeting attendance.
Yes, this paper is propaganda.
And in the end, it all meant nothing.
The authors established no cause-and-effect relationship between either treatment or meeting attendance and
sobriety, or between treatment and meeting attendance.
The authors even said so at the end of the paper:
"...little evidence of a strong relationship..."
So this is much ado about nothing, and it means nothing, other than the fact that sending people to
treatment doesn't make them go to A.A. meetings for very long.
But we already knew that just from looking at the dropout rate at A.A. meetings.
The alcoholics go to treatment, and then they go to A.A., and then they go to the bar.
Have a good day now.
== Orange
[More gosling photos below, here.]
Date: Tue, June 28, 2011 6:46 pm (answered 29 June 2011)
I will be on "Cultural Baggage" Sunday July 2, at 6:30 Central Time, which is 7:30
Eastern time.
This is their link:
From their website: Cultural Baggage Launched in early 2001, Cultural Baggage, hosted by Dean Becker, is the only nationally distributed radio program focused on discussing the war on drugs. The weekly, half-hour program features interviews with prominent experts, such as U.S. Representatives John Conyers (D-MI) and Ron Paul (R-TX); Nobel Prize-winning economist Milton Friedman; and Superior Court Judge James Gray. Cultural Baggage features timely and candid interviews with elected officials, judges, scientists, doctors, authors, entertainers, police officers, wardens, prisoners, and patients about current drug war issues, such as medical marijuana, sentencing reform, racial profiling, and police corruption. Peter Ferentzy, PhD, Author of Dealing With Addiction — why the 20th century was wrong
Okay, Peter,
I'll publicize this. Good luck with your show.
And have a good day.
== Orange
Date: Wed, June 29, 2011 8:27 am (answered 29 June 2011) Clicks on the "New Forum topics" are redirecting to some "error" page written in German!
Yes, there are two things going on there. First, for some odd reason,
if you click on some links on the left margin when you first get into
the forum, you get a "404 Page not found" error message. That is just
a bug in the Drupal system. If you click on "Forums" on the left, then
the same links on the left will work from the following page.
The "404 Seite nicht Gefunden" page is mine. I speak German, so it's just
a lark.
Have a good day now.
== Orange
Date: Wed, June 29, 2011 12:14 pm (answered 29 June 2011) I guess speaking German allows you to translate into English all of the primary-source, outright NAZI connections Buchman had with the Third Reich! ;) What the hell is the "Drupal" system? The source that runs the forum's web-site?
Yes on translating the Buchman stuff, although I don't have nearly enough
of the original documents. I sure would love it if somebody in Germany
raided the archives.
Drupal is the name of the forum software. Look at
In general, Drupal is excellent, and it is free. But it does still have
a few bugs and problems.
Have a good day now.
== Orange
Date: Wed, June 29, 2011 1:31 pm Are there any archives left to be raided (that didn't get destroyed in WW II, or plundered by the Allies afterwards?)
Oh yeh, huge archives. In the mid-nineteen-fifties, the Allies turned
all of their captured archives over to the new German government,
which sealed the archives for 50 years. Well 50 years ended just
a few years ago, so now common folk like you or I can go to Germany
and poke through the archives, and actually see the original documents.
If I win the lottery, I think I'll vacation in Germany and search
some archives.
Have a good day now.
Date: Tue, June 28, 2011 9:05 pm (answered 29 June 2011) Hello, You are receiving this email because you requested that BlogTalkRadio.com remind you when select shows are about to air. Show Details: Show: Mike Blame Denial and James G form the Famous youtube video! Date/Time: Jun 28, 2011 10:00 PM PDT Listen: Click to listen. Or copy and paste the link below: http://www.Blogtalkradio.com/saferecovery/2011/06/29/mike-blame-denial And do not forget, if you want to call in live and speak with the host, be sure to dial (818)475-9211. You will be placed into the caller queue where you will still be able to hear the show while you are on hold. If you miss this above event you can listen to the archive anytime by clicking on the same link above. Enjoy the show, The BlogTalkRadio Team
Well, that was last night. However, you can go to the same URL and download the program
and listen to it again and again. I've been doing that with all of the shows lately.
By the way, remember that Monica has a show on every Tuesday evening. However, the hour listed seems odd.
I remember 6 PM or 7 PM Pacific time. It definitely was not 10 PM.
Have a good day.
== Orange
Date: Sun, June 26, 2011 1:03 pm thats an interesting observation. ???
Date: Thu, June 30, 2011 8:29 am (answered 2 July 2011) Hello, Could I please get more information about your organization? Specifically, I'd like to learn where you found your statistics on the success and failure rates of self-help groups like AA.
Sincerely,
Hello Cynthia,
Thanks for the letter. There is no organization. It's just me, Terrance Hodgins, one person in
Forest Grove, Oregon, collecting information and writing and maintaining a web site. Although I do
have friends who send me findings from time to time.
The sources of information about the A.A. failure rate are all listed in the file
The Effectiveness of the Twelve-Step Treatment.
Each item of information includes the sources, like the medical report or book that describes the
test or program.
There is
just one exception: A friend sent me a bunch of information that he had about the sales of
sobriety coins in a large area of Texas, and that gave me one more way to see the A.A. dropout rate.
Look here for the distribution of sobriety coins.
Have a good day.
== Orange
Date: Thu, June 30, 2011 12:02 am (answered 2 July 2011)
OK, I like some of the things on the web site, but I would also like to know who you
are. You're a university level teacher, apparently, so there's no reason for any
mystery that I can see. Or at least, that's my hope... Thanks, — Alohalani
M. Alohalani B., M. A. Political Science
Hello Alohalani,
Thanks for the question. There is no big mystery. I broke my anonymity years ago.
My name is Terrance Hodgins and I live in Forest Grove, Oregon.
The reason for the anonymity in the first place was because I was in the odd situation of living
in housing that was owned by the same corporation as ran a fraudulent "treatment center" that
gave me
a cocaine-snorting Internet-child-pornographer child rapist as a sobriety counselor.
I didn't want to end up homeless for telling the truth and challenging the expensive hoax that is
called "treatment".
But things have changed, and I am living in a much better place now, and they cannot retaliate
for me telling the truth. I continue to use the Orange name because it has been my pen name for so
many years that it's an old habit, and many people know me by no other name.
I am not connected to academia, although I like to joke that I have a Ph.D. from the School of Hard Knox.
I dropped out of Berkeley in 1966 at the height of the psychedelic revolution. (And yes, I inhaled.)
Have a good day now.
== Orange
[The previous letter from Vernon is here.]
Date: Wed, June 29, 2011 9:41 pm (answered 2 July 2011) So, one experience cashed you on the whole deal huh? Interesting. No, Vernon, it was not just one experience. The propaganda technique you are trying to use there is called Minimization. It wasn't just one experience, or one fault in A.A. I really got turned off to A.A. when I found that it was a lie and a fraud from beginning to end. Try reading the files, Have you ever considered that in their quest for understanding, after reading the really negative stuff on your site a whole bunch of people might just cash in too,.... and die?
Now you are using the propaganda technique called "Fear Mongering", or
"Argue from Adverse Consequences".
Arguing that alcoholics will die if I tell the truth about A.A. is a common Stepper stunt to
try to avoid hearing the truth, and trying to prevent anyone else from hearing the truth, either.
Look here for a long list of such A.A. accusations.
Since A.A. kills more people than it saves, there is no reason to worry that people are dying because
they get warned about the A.A. cult religion.
AA granted me a place to turn when their was nothing else. I didn't have the will of self to just say fuck AA. Huh? That doesn't make much sense. It's nice that A.A. gave you a chair and a cup of coffee, but so what? Then you didn't have the will power to quit the cult? What are you saying? You stand on your years of self-sobriety as if you have an alternative, but this web-site, full of thrashing something you personally dismiss from one experience as snake oil, offers nothing as an alternative. Wrong again. Read this, where I listed what has helped many people: How did you get to where you are? At least, as far as I can see, you don't have any monied sponsors, you apparently have no profit motive. You apparently post this site out of pure motives. Sad that they are negative motives. In your picture on Facebook you look like you are happy, and I hope you are. Right. I don't run a money-grubbing cult, and I am quite happy, thank you.
But self-satisfaction is a far cry from serenity
And that is more cultish bullshit. As if practicing
Frank Buchman's cult religion
had given anyone "serenity". Not gonna happen.
And happiness is not the same thing as "self-satisfaction".
That propaganda trick is called
Exchange A Term.
The truth is,
practicing Buchmanism
is what gave people smug self-satisfaction, where they were sure that
they had a special place in the Lord's favor.
Oh well, have a good day anyway.
== Orange
[The next letter from Vernon is here.]
Date: Thu, June 30, 2011 8:41 pm (answered 2 July 2011) I just stumbled on your website and I'm really perplexed as to what I should make of it. I'm having trouble deciding whether you are legitimately concerned about AA being a cult, whether you are just a disgruntled malice filled person who wants to try and ruin a chance of recovery for a questioning alcoholic or whether you have some other program of recovery you are involved in that you are trying to promote by bashing AA. After all you do seek to be quite fond of SMART.
Hello John,
It is very simple: I am opposed to foisting quack medicine and cult religion on sick people and
lying to them about how well it works.
I don't want to argue whether AA meets some Webster definition of a cult or not, what I'm utterly surprised at is how you figure AA does more harm than good and therefore you should create a website and spend countless hours trying to refute it in your articles? How can you say AA is harmful and only 5% if people stay sober, when you can go to any city in the civilized and find thousands in each city that have years and decades of sobriety and are living proof that they were once hopeless drunks and AA has impacted their life positively?
Apparently, you have not bothered to read the file
The Effectiveness of the Twelve-Step Treatment.
That web page contains the reports from all of the doctors who have done proper tests of A.A's
effects.
A.A. does not save 5% of the alcoholics. Five percent per year is the normal rate of spontaneous remission
in alcoholics. A.A. only appears to have a 5% success rate because A.A. steals the credit for
the people who were going to quit drinking anyway.
The real A.A. recovery rate, above and beyond the normal rate of spontaneous remission, is zero.
Cult religion just doesn't work as a cure for addictions.
I don't care about what some double blind randomized academic study of AAs success rates shows. Everyone know how difficult it is to create a psychological case study on a group such as AA and get any reliable data.
Bullshit. First, you say that you don't care about the real facts, and then you try to use the
"Everybody Knows" propaganda trick:
Everybody's Doing It, Everybody Knows, and Everybody Says.
And it isn't that hard to do a proper test.
Look here for a description of a
randomized longitudinal controlled study.
From my own experience as an AA member I can testify myself that there can be a revolving door of newcomers and that success may appear low. But many of those people never really adopt the tenets of the program and apply it to their lives. Plus if they did, how would this be measured? Maybe from a standpoint only measuring the people who come to a few meetings and their success with sobriety, the success rate would appear low. But how can you honestly say that on balance AA does more harm than good? If that was the case AA wouldn't exist! 76 years and growing strong!
On the contrary, cults do exist in spite of being harmful.
Scientology is doing just fine, and it is possibly even a worse fraud than A.A.,
although not quite as successful as A.A. But nearly, and it's been "growing strong" since 1950.
And the Jehovah's Witnesses are doing just fine, too, in spite of the world's failure to end in 1975.
They have been around for about a century.
Cults do not just always die out just because they are wrong.
To claim that the A.A. program doesn't work because the people didn't work the program right is a
dodge. The fact remains that A.A. still doesn't work. A.A. still fails to make the alcoholics quit
drinking. It doesn't really matter what the excuse is, A.A. still doesn't work, and doesn't save
the lives of the alcoholics. A.A. is useless.
Oh, and A.A. is not "growing strong", it is shrinking. The membership is in decline.
Subscriptions to The Grapevine are down so far that they are having to lay off employees, and
it may just stop publishing soon. It is losing a lot of money.
The A.A. headquarters is so desperate for money that they commit fraud and perjury and sue A.A. members.
I can honestly say that A.A. does more harm than good because that is what it does. Heck, even
your own leader,
Dr. and Prof. George E. Vaillant, a member of the A.A. Board of Trustees,
proved with an 8-year-long test that A.A. had a zero-percent cure
rate, and an "appalling" death rate:
And for your extremely negative judgmental portrayal of the cofounders, you should be ashamed. You mention nothing about the countless hours these men spent trying to help drunks at no cost to them, about the many acts of service they chose to engage in. You only mention negative things that are plain rumors and conjecture, and you present these things so that they should refute any good that these men have done.
Baloney. Hours spent foisting cult religion on sick people is nothing to brag about.
And the reality is: A.A. does NOTHING to be of service to alcoholics. A.A. does not help to
feed the homeless, or run free stores for the homeless, or help the alcoholics in any way.
A.A. just tries to recruit alcoholics into the cult. That is official A.A. policy
that dates all the way back to Bill Wilson, who taught in the Big Book
that A.A. should not be of service to alcoholics:
So don't help the alcoholics, and don't perform any services for them.
Bill says that they must learn to rely on God.
That is pure Buchmanism, and that is disgusting.
The Oxford Group never dispensed any charity, either, and Frank Buchman also taught that
his followers should not help
the poor or disabled because that would "make materialists out of them."
You should feel especially bad about where you underhandedly suggest AA founders were Nazi sympathizers. Yes Frank Buchman said what he said, and the Oxford group no longer exists. AA and the founders never had anything to do with those statements he made. You are committing intellectual dishonesty sir.
Now you are really descending into denial. Bill Wilson and Dr. Bob were members of the Oxford
Group while
Frank Buchman went to the Nuremberg Nazi Party rallies year after year, and came home from the
1936 Berlin Olympics and declared to a New York daily newspaper,
"I thank heaven for a man like Adolf Hitler..."
Neither Bill Wilson nor Dr. Bob quit the Oxford Group in protest when Frank Buchman praised
Adolf Hitler and Heinrich Himmler. They just kept right on recruiting
more alcoholics for the Oxford Group. They were neither innocent nor ignorant.
And haven't you noticed the total silence of Bill Wilson and Dr. Robert Smith on the subject of
Hitler and the Nazis? Neither of them opposed the Nazis, or criticized Dr. Frank Buchman for
his involvement with the Nazis, or made any public statement denouncing the Oxford Group's Nazi
sympathizing, or wrote any letter to the editor opposing Nazi sympathizers. Nothing.
The silence is deafening. Bill Wilson and Dr. Bob just kept on recruiting alcoholics for the
Oxford Group.
Likewise, you will find no criticism of Dr. Frank Buchman's Nazi sympathies in the various histories of A.A.
like Alcoholics Anonymous Comes Of Age, or PASS IT ON, or Dr. Bob and the Good Oldtimers.
They just gloss over the whole thing and pretend that it never happened.
In fact, Bill Wilson even praised dictatorships himself, and later bragged that
Alcoholics Anonymous
had "all of the advantages of the modern dictatorship".
Adolf Hitler, Benito Mussolini, and Joseph Stalin had really given
dictatorships a bad name before and during World War Two,
but that didn't stop Bill Wilson from still admiring dictatorships as
a form of government (just as long as he got
to be the dictator). Other people may have had great doubts about the
virtues of dictatorships, but not Bill Wilson. He was keeping the faith,
and making sure that people could continue to "profit and grow"
through dictatorships in Alcoholics Anonymous.
And what are the liabilities of dictatorships that A.A. does not have?
Yes, Bill Wilson was really in favor of dictatorships, just as long as he got to be the dictator.
We saw we needn't always be bludgeoned and beaten into humility.
(Not always?)
AA is filled with sick people trying to get better. Everyone who comes to AA is troubled, the point is we are trying to better ourselves. No one claims to be a Saint. And that line "We are not saints" is used as a cover for everything from theft to rape. You're suggestion that pure unsupported abstinence is more beneficial than AA is especially weak. The whole philosophy of AA is directed at people who are unsuccessful at doing this. If alcoholics of this variety could simply stop on their own unaided willpower AA wouldn't have a need to exist. In every meeting you will find people who tried the white knuckle method for decades while drifting further and further into the dark pits of alcoholism. Many who destroy themselves completely in the process of trying to gain control.
More baloney. Alcoholics can and do stop on their own.
The claim that alcoholics need the A.A. program is just A.A. recruiting propaganda.
The Harvard Mental Health Letter, from The Harvard Medical
School, stated quite plainly:
The NIAAA's 2001-2002 National Epidemiologic Survey on Alcohol and Related
Conditions interviewed over 43,000 people. Using the criteria for alcohol
dependence found in the DSM-IV, they found:
And the huge glaring fact that you keep trying to ignore is the fact that Frank
Buchman's cult religion is not a cure or a treatment for alcohol abuse or alcohol addiction.
A.A. does not work. A.A. does not sober up the alcoholics.
You try to explain away A.A.'s failure by claiming that the alcoholics didn't work the program right,
but the fact still remains that A.A. fails to sober up the alcoholics.
Alcoholics do not need A.A. any more than they need an extra hole in their heads.
Anyways I'm sure you will respond with some windy well documented argument, but Im quite certain that it will entirely miss the main point: that AA does work, there are millions of people and their families who testify to it every day in meetings all over the world. Are we really just brainwashed?
Yes, you are really brainwashed, and no, A.A. does not work. I have not missed the main point, you have.
The point was supposed to be to get the alcoholics to quit drinking. A.A. fails to do that.
A.A. does not work.
A.A. just steals the credit for those few people who quit drinking in the neighborhood of an A.A. meeting
by using their own will power and self-control.
Furthermore, you are determined to avoid learning the truth, which will keep you brainwashed.
And there are no "millions" of A.A. members, either. The total worldwide membership is under 2 million,
and the majority of them are just newcomers who will drop out soon.
The real hard-core A.A. membership is only a few hundred thousand.
The rest is just churn.
A.A. is a cult in decline.
The fact that a bunch of people sit in cult religion meetings and sing the praises of the cult
does not prove that the cult is a good thing.
Think about the Scientologists, and the Moonies, and the Hari Krishnas, and the FLDS... they all
say the same things too. Heck, every cult in the world proclaims itself a great success that is
saving mankind.
And all of those cults have their poster children who deliver testimonials that declare that
the wonderful cult saved them from a life of sin or some such thing.
The A.A. scam isn't even original.
Lastly, I notice that you unquestioningly accept the statements of some
A.A. members who are not entitled to speak for A.A.
Isn't that what the standard A.A. dogma says? "Nobody is entitled to speak for A.A."?
But when people are praising A.A., suddenly they are entitled to speak for A.A. after all, aren't they?
So that is yet another
A.A. bait-and-switch trick:
First, nobody is entitled to speak for A.A., and then all kinds of people are entitled to speak for A.A.,
just as long as you like what they say.
AA does not claim that it is the only successful method for treating alcoholism, despite what kind of statement you may have heard from some random dude in a meeting who may have implied this. I challenge you to find this in the literature.
Challenge accepted. That claim is standard A.A. propaganda, and it's a common A.A. bait-and-switch trick
that I described at length, here:
First, Bill Wilson declared that Alcoholics
Anonymous was only one of many ways to achieve sobriety, then he declared
that it was The Only Way.
I also described the same thing in the cult characteristic
Insistence that the cult is THE ONLY WAY.
Those web pages list such jewels as:
... you may be suffering from an illness which only a spiritual
experience will conquer. ...
Popular A.A. slogans say:
The A.A. "First Tradition", which Bill Wilson wrote,
says:
Well, Bill Wilson says that there just isn't any way for alcoholics to survive other than go to A.A.
No other methods or groups or organizations will save the alcoholics from death.
If A.A. doesn't exist, then most of the alcoholics will surely die.
A.A. is the ONLY way.
There is more, much more. Check out those links.
I'm just glad I've had years of experience in recovery before stumbling on this filth of a website. I hope your conscience and karma pays you back well for any opportunities of recovery that you have destroyed for some fragile, scared alcoholic browsing the web, who could have benefited from AA. John J.
Okay, John,
Enjoy your life in the cult. It's obvious that you don't want to know the truth, and you won't learn anything
because you reject all information that you don't like.
And I see that you just had to finish your letter
with the standard A.A. complaint that telling the truth about A.A.
will kill some of those poor feeble-minded alcoholics.
Look here for a long list of such A.A. accusations.
But since A.A. kills more alcoholics than it saves, telling people the truth about A.A. is not
depriving anybody of benefits
— other than maybe
the money-grubbing perjuring A.A. leaders.
By the way, you said that A.A. does not claim to be The Only Way. Well then, steering alcoholics
away from A.A. and towards something else shouldn't hurt them at all, should it?
They can just recover some other way that doesn't involve
the practices of an old
pro-Nazi cult religion from the nineteen-thirties.
Have a good day anyway.
== Orange
Date: Sat, July 2, 2011 1:28 am (answered 2 July 2011) Thanks so much for all the information you've gathered here. Your site has explained to me the actual TECHNIQUES I fell for which kept me involved with AA for a short time. The bait and switch, and blatant dishonesty of saying 'a god of your understanding' which slowly becomes g.o.d. (no WAY the God of scripture and an abomination). I'm in agreement with you that 12 step theology is incompatible with Christianity. Aspects bothered me, but I pushed the red flags aside and tried to reconcile the 12 steps to my faith Christ, under the erroneous belief that I needed the 12 steps in order to stay sober. They are irreconcilable. They are not biblical — not only not biblical, but anti biblical. The disease model of alcoholism is not found in scripture. I have not been intoxicated for years. Total abstinence was a lifestyle I chose for myself and achieved on my own. I realised my drinking was a problem before it actually became a problem — just the way I reacted to the alcohol. I somewhere picked up the idea that in order to keep the happy sobriety I already had, I needed AA. Oops. I saw the heretical doctrine in AA for myself but you have helped me see HOW I was sucked in as well as exposing a lot of contradictions and nonsense in the big book and unknown history of the founders. Thanks, again.
Hi Jane,
You are welcome. Thanks for the letter, and I'm glad to hear that you are free. And sober.
So congratulations on your sobriety, and have a good life now.
And have a good day too.
== Orange
[The story of Carmen continues here.]
Last updated 8 March 2013. |
