Date: Fri, January 2, 2009 5:57 pm     (answered 30 March 2009)
From: "Jay D."
Subject: Wow

Orange head or whatever you call yourself. I am so amazed at how much energy that you have put into this. I suspect you have some serious underlying issues that AA really brought up in you and you are so desperate to make AA wrong so you can escape that awakening. Before you analyze what I have written here. I will not talk about my education on the topic matter as far as schooling goes. I will say that I have been attending AA for 35 years now. I have been to well over 3 thousands meetings of AA. So I do know a thing or two about AA and what it is about and you have been to well it cant be more then 2 meetings because 80% of what you claim about AA is so eroneous it boggles my mind where you came up with such falsehoods. Like AA recruiters? Dude there is no such thing as an AA recruiter? LMAO There are only people who try as part of what helps them stay sober try to talk with anyone who is intrested. Attraction rather then promotion. Oh sure there are a few that may try to promote and maybe recruite? (never seen that though) but just because you may have run into a person who claims to be an AA recruiter you think that is absolute proof thaqt AA recruits? Good God man check yourself. I only read a paper that is so twisted from reality from a very angry and hurt man who is trying to avenge his hurt by making up stuff about those that hurt him. but I tell you the majority of people(both in and not in AA) that I know can see this is nothing but a tremendous attempt to resolve his inner conflict because of a bad experisnce he had at an AA meeting. I really do feel sorry for you and hope you find the peace that you are so desperately wanting but trying to get in a way that will ensure it never comes.

Hello Jay,

Yes, you drank the koolaid.

You start off with the standard ad hominem attack because you can't imagine that someone who is not mentally ill could possibly criticize Alcoholics Anonymous.

Then you parrot the standard lies about "no recruiting, no promotion, just attraction."
(Just out of curiosity, how many slips have you signed in your 35 years? Those people with those slips are not there voluntarily.)

Then you go back to claiming that I must be mentally ill to criticize A.A.

And you finish with hoping that I find peace. Oh, so sanctimonious.

Oh well, have a good day anyway.

== Orange

*             orange@orange-papers.info        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**    And the believers spake unto me, and they saeth,
**   "If you want what we have, and are willing to go to
**   any length to get it, then, here, drink this koolaid."

Date: Fri, January 2, 2009 6:11 pm     (answered 30 March 2009)
From: BGLAZIER
Subject: (no subject)

Ms. Orange,

What the hell is wrong with you, and what are you so afraid of? That people may actually get help? And so what if they come to believe in a power greater than themselves? Where is the harm? Do you really believe that the goal of AA is to brainwash people into going to church or something?

Luckily, the answer is that sobriety, sanity, and a kernal of spirituality has been restored to literally millions from AA, enabling people to put back the pieces of shattered lives enough to restore some trust with their loved ones and have something of a real life again.

You sound like an angry, bitter, twisted wretch of a soul who could use AA to regain the light in your own life, unless maybe you have something better to offer........

...... I didn't think so.

An Anonymous Alcoholic in recovery for 4 years.

"There, but for the grace of God, go I"

Hello BGLAZIER,

I'm doing quite well thank you. And I have 8 years clean and sober now, and I am certainly not afraid of either sobriety or living without cult religion.

I criticize A.A. because it is quackery that does not work. It has not "saved millions". That is just the standard A.A. Big Lie.

Since you imagine that A.A. works, please answer these simple questions:

"What is the actual A.A. success rate?
Out of each 1000 newcomers to A.A.,

1. How many of them finally pick up a one-year coin?
   
2. A five-year coin?
   
3. A ten-year coin?
   
4. A fifteen-year coin?
   
5. A twenty-year coin?"

== Orange

*             orange@orange-papers.info        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**      Error is a hardy plant: it flourisheth in every soil.
**      — Martin Farquhar Tupper  (1810-1889)

Date: Sun, January 4, 2009 3:56 pm     (answered 30 March 2009)
From: "richard o."
Subject: spiritual, not...

hello agent orange —

thank you for your work on your website. you have been instrumental in freeing my mind from the tryanny of a.a. as well as showing me that i can, indeed, think for myself, just as i use to before they got their claws in me.

read this the other day — guess this guy decided to take a page out of Bill "the lying, conniving, philandering, brain-damaged from too much bath-tub gin failed wall-street hustler con-man cult leader" Wilson's play-book.

10 years for sect leader: the leader of a small religious sect in new mexico was sentencded tuesday to 10 years in prison for sexual misconduct with 2 teenage female followers. Wayne Bent, 67, who claimed the encounters were SPIRITUAL, NOT SEXUAL (caps mine), was convicted this month of criminal sexual contact with a minor and corntributing to the delinquency of a minor.

(S.F. Chronicle, p A3, Dec. 31, 2008 NATION AND WORLD sub-heading DIGEST)

sounds like ole' Wayne may have spent some time in "the roomz".

yours in free-thinking,

richard o.

Hi Richard,

Thanks for the compliments and the information. I shall have to learn more.

Have a good day.

== Orange

*             orange@orange-papers.info        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**      When I am working on a problem I never think about beauty.
**      I only think about how to solve the problem. But when I have
**      finished, if the solution is not beautiful, I know it is wrong.
**         —  Buckminster Fuller (1895—1983)

Date: Wed, January 7, 2009 5:30 pm     (answered 30 March 2009)
From: rigue
Subject: AA

Ouf , sure you dont like AA an is founder at all , dont know what they did to you but it's certainly something realy bad . Wish you happines and love .

Yves

Hi Yves,

You have a good day too.

== Orange

*             orange@orange-papers.info        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**    Give me chastity and continence, but not yet."
**        ==  Saint Augustine (354—430)

May 25, 2008: Back up on the roof, Day 8.

It's another rainy day, so the goslings are getting a short walk on the roof.

[The story of the goslings continues here.]

Date: Wed, December 10, 2008 2:33 pm     (answered 31 March 2009)
From: "Mongoose"
Subject: re: the whole naggy housewife idea

So I just started looking through your site .. very interesting. :)

Hello Mongoose,

Thanks for the letter. Sorry to take so long to answer it; I'm really backlogged on email.

But I did want to make one note (might make more as I read on...), regarding the whole "it's my wife's fault I keep drinking!" crap.

While I think that it is just an excuse for a person to keep drinking, there is some sense to it (given the right context at least).

So, my mother is an alcoholic, and she has been trying very hard to lessen how much she drinks. She still slips, sometimes, of course (I think she's got an addictive personality, and that never helps), but she's working on it. However, one of the things that sometimes will drive her to drinking is ... my dad! Now, this may be an extreme example, but he is a very, very controlling person. He often treats my mother like a child, and not like a wife. When he notices that she has a glass of wine or anything, he will sometimes just emotionally degrade her (or, if she says something he perceives to be fallacious, and he knows she's had so much as a beer, he'll start talking about "oh, yeah, just drink some more beer"). And, he is rather closed-minded, and doesn't really bother to actually hear her out. As I said, he's very critical and controlling in every manner, but especially clings on to her alcoholism.

So of course, this will just piss my mother off and depress her, since she has to deal with his shit every day (and plus has to deal with her controlling and sick mother, at the same time). And ... what do you know; she pours herself another glass. And maybe another, and another. (Really depends on the situation how much she drinks.)

That sounds like a really sad situation.

Now while it certainly is still her decision to drink, my dad being angry at her for it and trying to make her not drink is very counteractive. I think that might be what the counselor or whoever you were talking about was getting at; the alcoholic needs to be given *some* space to work things out for themselves, or it just becomes a horrific frustration.

I agree. Such hostile criticism is definitely counter-productive. It didn't work on me either, when people yelled at me and demanded that I quit drinking. I never quit in response to such criticism. I didn't quit until I got to a place where I saw what damage and pain alcohol and tobacco were causing me, and I came to the logical conclusion that it was more pain that it was worth. Over the years, the damage and pain had steadily increased, while the pleasure and fun had diminished, and it just wasn't worth it any more.

You mention a counselor. That sounds like a good idea, IF you can get a good one, which is not easy. (I've seen more quacks than good ones.) Unfortunately, your father sounds like he would not be open to the idea, or even seriously consider the idea that he was part of the problem.

Like I said, might be a somewhat extreme example, as I don't think most spouses are just downright assholes to their alcoholic other, but might want to make note of that.

Yes.

Oh, and another thing — I'm not sure if you have this written anywhere, but for addictive drugs that give you withdrawal, and that build up tolerance or anything, I recently learned that there is actually a specific chemical reason for addiction and withdrawal symptoms, beyond just the drive to "feel good."

Anyway, say you have a drug you're taking too much, and which bind to certain receptors which cause whatever reaction (which is usually, indeed, the high that makes you feel good). The number of those receptors decrease to balance out all the extra activity they're receiving ... but if it goes too far, and you become addicted, it becomes an actual physical need (as it was told to me, trying to stop would be like trying to stop breathing). This is because if you stop taking the drug, now you have way fewer receptors, but you also have less chemical binding to them (less than you would have in the first place, obviously), and so it causes a severe imbalance.

That's sort of a more in depth explanation of the need to feel good, but I find it fascinating and clarifying... hopefully you will too. :D

Yes. I usually say that the reason that people drink is because they feel bad, and they want to feel good. And then they want to feel *really* good.

Well, going through withdrawal is definitely feeling bad. Been there, done that, I know what it's like.

And actually, there is even more to it. Not only is the addict going through withdrawal, but he or she is also feeling his/her ill health and what all of the drugs+alcohol+cigarettes have done to his/her body, and the cumulative effects of years of malnutrition and vitamin deficiency. (Alcohol is good at leaching vitamins out of your body.)

With no drug or anaesthetic to dull the pain, the addict feels it all catching up with him, all at the same time. When addicts go through withdrawal, they actually become hyper-sensitive to pain as the physiological pendulum swings the other way and the body over-compensates for the drug. That's enough to make the addict panic and reach for a painkiller, quick. That is very often the first reason why the addict grabs more of his or her drug of choice. The having-fun phase comes later.

p.s. sorry if there are any confusing typos...

No problem. It seemed clear to me.

Have a good day, and good luck.

== Orange

*             orange@orange-papers.info        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**    He admitted he was overdoing these things, but frankly said that he was
**    not ready to stop. His wife is one of those persons who really feels
**    there is something rather sinful about these commodities, so she nagged,
**    and her intolerance finally threw him into a fit of anger. He got drunk.
**      ==  The Big Book, William G. Wilson, page 135 (3rd and 4th editions)

Date: Thu, December 11, 2008 3:52 am     (answered 31 March 2009)
From: "Melissa H."
Subject: AA

Why would you write so much about AA if you thought is was a bunch of BS?

Hello Melissa,

Thanks for the question. And the answer is: Because A.A. constantly promotes itself as the best cure in the world and somebody has to tell the truth to counter the river of lies and misinformation.

1. A.A. members routinely plant plugs in movies and TV shows to convince the public that A.A. is the best and only solution to the problem of alcoholism or drug addiction:
   • The Days of Wine and Roses
   • 28 Days
   • Clean and Sober
   • My Name is Bill W. (a Hallmark made-for-TV movie, April 30, 1989, 9 PM, ABC TV)
   • Cagney and Lacy
   • ER
   • The West Wing
   • Hill Street Blues

2. More A.A. members write magazine articles that present fake research that tries to fool people into thinking that A.A. works:
   • Doctors in A.A.; the profession's skepticism persists, but MDs in Alcoholics Anonymous say the 12-step program could benefit all physicians, by C. Thomas Anderson.
   • Spirituality: The key to recovery from alcoholism, by Warfield, Robert D.; Goldstein, Marc B.
   • The Spiritual Dimension of Healing, by Jeff Jay.
   • Are we making the most of Alcoholics Anonymous? (The Last Word), by Peter Armstrong.
   • Keep coming back! Narcotics Anonymous narrative and recovering-addict identity, by Adam Rafalovich.
   • More Big Lies — A.A. Propaganda As Usual
   • More A.A.-Booster Propaganda: the book Cults: Faith, Healing, and Coercion, by Marc Galanter

3. Also, A.A. has lately even been running television commercials, which is also certainly a violation of the Eleventh Tradition.

4. And then the 12-Step religious cult even has the legal system forcing people to go to their meetings. The Scientologists and Moonies can only drool in envy.

== Orange

*             orange@orange-papers.info        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**   Years ago we found that accurate and effective publicity about A.A. simply does
**   not manufacture itself. Our over-all public relations couldn't be left entirely to
**   chance encounters between reporters and A.A. members, who might or might
**   not be well informed about our fellowship as a whole.
**      ==  William G. Wilson, rationalizing how he publicized Alcoholics Anonymous
**       in violation of the "Eleventh Tradition",
**       in Alcoholics Anonymous Comes Of Age, William G. Wilson, pages 35-36.

Date: Thu, December 11, 2008 1:31 pm     (answered 31 March 2009)
From: "michael mcc."
Subject: Alcoholics Anonymous

Hi Orange. How are you? Hope all is well! I just wanted to send you a link to my blog. I have been posting my take on AA on my blog, and I recently put up a letter from a AA member, and my response to his letter. I think it is important for me to stay active in standing up for the truth and facts, and standing up for my true experience that I had with AA. Thanks again for all the work on your site and I will continue to keep in touch. Take care Orange.

Michael T. McComb

http://michaelmccomb.blogspot.com/

Okay, Michael, a belated thanks. I'll have to read it as soon as I get back online.

== Have a good day.

== Orange

*             orange@orange-papers.info        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**  "And still they gaz'd, and still the wonder grew
**   That one small head could carry all he knew."
**      ==  GOLDSMITH, The Deserted Village

May 25, 2008: Still back up on the roof, Day 8.

It's still another rainy day, so the goslings are getting a short walk in the rain on the roof.

Date: Fri, December 12, 2008 11:50 am     (answered 31 March 2009)
From: "Trish R."
Subject: what's up with "Passages" in L.A.?

Hey Agent Orange,

Hope all is well with you.

Lately, I've been seeing a commercials on TV for a book called "The Addiction Cure" by Chris Prentiss of the Passages Center in Malibu. He says in the TV ad that they don't believe in the disease theory — and I notice that when I googled Passages Malibu, some of the first sites to pop up call the Prentisses "the holocaust deniers of the addiction recovery industry."

Do you know anything about this potential alternative to AA, etc?

trish

Hello Trish,

Thanks for the question. I know a little bit — not a lot — but a little bit. I shall have to check out that book.

First off, you may wish to see another letter that came in a little while ago, here. That correspondent was not at all impressed with their program.

Passages of Malibu is the super-expensive, super-luxurious rehab resort where all of the movie stars go. You know the routine — they make a big deal out of going to rehab, and then 28 days later they come out spouting all kinds of slogans, and then, a month later, they go get busted for DWI again. What a circus.

The Passages web site is: http://www.passagesmalibu.com/

Oh well, have a good day anyway.

== Orange

*             orange@orange-papers.info        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**  "And the Devil did grin, for his darling sin
**   Is pride that apes humility.
**     == S. T. COLERIDGE, The Devil's Thoughts

Date: Fri, December 12, 2008 9:23 am     (answered 31 March 2009)
From: "Just Me"
Subject: Sugar addiction

Terry:

What next? Sugar Addicts Anonymous? A treatment center for sugar addicts? Sugar = heroin or cocaine??

http://www.alternet.org/healthwellness/111801/

Some of the reader comments at the end of the article offer some perspective on this.

I hope the weather is as glorious there as it is here today. Enjoy!

Terri

Hi Terri,

Thanks for the note. That's amusing. The author wasn't over-stating the case or exaggerating or anything, was he, as he equated sugar and heroin?

(What's really funny is that substituting sugar for heroin is a standard way of ripping off a junkie in a bad dope deal. And the junkies are not at all happy about the substitution. The junkies really know the difference between the two.)

Now there is a grain of truth in that story. Sugar consumption is habit-forming. Just ask the people who absolutely must get their 3 or 4 Cokes or Pepsis per day, or else they feel out of sorts.

And what is really disturbing is the fact that the food industry just loads up our food with cheap high-fructose corn syrup. It's hard to find any processed food that isn't sweetened with that stuff. Probably most of the American population is hooked on HFCS. And that's a big part of why the American people are so obese and diabetic.

Oh well, have a good day anyway.

== Orange

*             orange@orange-papers.info        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**  "He that hath pity on the poor lendeth unto the Lord."
**    OLD TESTAMENT, Proverbs, XIX, 17

Date: Fri, December 12, 2008 8:05 am     (answered 31 March 2009)
From: "Dennis M."
Subject: The Office

Orange:

I don't know if you ever watch the NBC sitcom "The Office" (it's scary how much that show reflects my work-life!), but if you missed last night's episode, be sure to check it out! I know there's a couple of websites that allow you to watch it online for free but it might take a week or two for a new one to show up.

After getting drunk and setting her hair on fire at the office holiday party, Meredith is cornered into an intervention by Michael, who after an utter failure to get the rest of the office to support him, tries to physically drag her into a rehab center.

Screamingly funny with what I took away as some strong underlying messages about the misinformation spewed out by the 12-step propaganda machine on how to deal with such a situation.

Happy Holidays!

Regards,

Dennis M.
Senior Consultant

Hello Dennis,

I managed to see it. The local NBC affiliate reran it at an odd hour a week later. That was delicious satire. I hope we see more of that.

And perhaps the rest of the world can see it on one of the rerun web sites that you mentioned, or catch it on YouTube.

(Which brings up the question of why NBC-Universal is being so anal about people downloading reruns. Seems like they need all of the help they can get to have more people watch their shows. They have so few good ones any more... and not much of an audience share either. Oh dear, am I being catty?)

Oh well, have a good day anyway.

== Orange

*             orange@orange-papers.info        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**    I took one draught of life
**    I'll tell you what I paid
**    Precisely an existence — 
**    The market-price, they said.
**      ==  EMILY DICKENSON, Further Poems

Date: Wed, December 10, 2008 5:25 pm     (answered 31 March 2009)
From: "Parrish S. K."
Subject: Other random thoughts

Still working my way thru your site, which is probably going to take a while ;-) but just to share some thoughts I've had...

Bill W.: "Rarely have we seen someone fail who has thoroughly followed our path."
Me: "Rarely have I met someone over four foot one who wasn't at least four foot two."

Steppist slogan: "If you've never worked the steps, you don't know what they'll do for you."
Me: "Well, I've never shot myself in the head with a .44 Magnum, either, but I know perfectly well what that would 'do for me'."
(Actually, now that I think about it, the effect would be about the same as doing the twelve steps: I wouldn't have a brain anymore. —Ah, and a few days after having originally written that, I see that you've already said something very similar on your site yourself. Great minds think alike.)

And is it just me, or is there something disturbing and creepy about the expression, "the rooms"? It reminds me of what Reese said to Sarah Connor in the first "Terminator" movie. "No, I didn't see the nuclear war. I was born after. I grew up in the rooms. Sick... starving..." I wonder whether a twelve-step program would have helped the people in the future. "First of all, we admitted that we were powerless against the Terminators." And that's another interesting analogy: if they had admitted that, they'd have all been killed. Their only chance to survive came from fighting the Terminators as hard as they possibly could.

When you get a flame from a Stepper, have you ever considered telling him that he has a "resentment"? I'd love to see how they'd react to that...

Hi again, Parrish,

I think I did use that resentment line once, a long time ago. I don't think the guy bothered to answer.

And the classic response to the repeated Steppers' accusations of resentments was here.

I wonder what would happen if an "inductee" were to go to his sponsor, ready to do step five, having prepared a list of all the things about himself that's good, as well as what's bad. After all, step four specifies only a "moral inventory", not an inventory of only the bad things.

Yes. I keep saying that — a real moral inventory would have to include the good as well as the bad. Furthermore, a real MORAL inventory would not be about the stupid jealousies and sexual insecurities that Bill Wilson listed in his goofy example inventory. A real MORAL inventory would start with, "How many people have you killed? How many people have you robbed? How many girls have you raped? Do you support war? Do you help the poor?" and a lot of things like that.

When Jesus Christ preached to people about morality, I don't recall him ever mentioning resentments. But he sure did talk a lot about helping the poor — which A.A. does not do at all, as a matter of policy.

Hope all is going well with you... Best, P

Yes, I am fine, thank you. And I hope you are well too.

And have a good day.

== Orange

*             orange@orange-papers.info        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**  Ye shall know them by their fruits.
**  Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
**    == NEW TESTAMENT, Matthew VII, 16

Date: Fri, December 12, 2008 9:14 pm     (answered 31 March 2009)
From: "shodoshi
Subject: Thanks for your web site

I am not a fan of the entire 12-step movement (although I got sober through AA) as in the last ten years I have done enough research to know what works and what doesn't...... I've been a CD counselor for many years and when my clients ask why I don't talk about AA, etc, I have let them know I don't have a 12-step orientation....

best,
t

Hello, T,

Thanks for the note, and thanks for the thanks.

And you have a good day.

== Orange

*             orange@orange-papers.info        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**  It is hard to fight an enemy who has outposts in your head.
**     ==  Sally Kempton, b. 1943, American writer

Date: Fri, December 12, 2008 8:58 pm     (answered 31 March 2009)
From: raymond
Subject: orange linked

This evening I found a Christian blog that is anti-AA, I was surprised to find the Orange Papers in his footnotes:

Telling Truth About Alcoholics Anonymous
http://mywordlikefire.wordpress.com/2008/10/08/telling-truth-about-alcoholics-anonymous/?referer=sphere_related_content/

Also wanted to let you know that the Orange Papers has been playing a part in the VH1 "Celebrity Rehab with Dr. Drew" boards for the new season. Someone in the pro-AA camp has termed people who mention the Orange Papers "orangettes".

Ray Smith
co-owner of "without_aa"
http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/without_aa/
moderator of Escaping From The Cult of AA (EFTCoaa)
http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/EFTCoaa/

Hello Ray,

Thanks for the heads-up. And "orangettes", now that's funny.

Have a good day.

== Orange

*             orange@orange-papers.info        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**  Great things are done when men and mountains meet;
**  This is not done by jostling in the street.
**   ==  WILLIAM BLAKE, Gnomic Verses, I

From: wgc
Subject: aa insanity and word play
Date: Sun, December 14, 2008 11:11 am     (answered 31 March 2009)

Hello

I cannot believe how alcoholics anonymous has changed the meanings of words in the dictionary. Apparently bill Wilson carries more weight than Noah Webster when it comes to definition.

An alcoholic is someone who is addicted to alcohol. According to AA, an alcoholic is a person who has a malady of the spirit, whether they are dependant on alcohol or not. They must attend meetings, and they are either, a dry drunk, an alcoholic who has not yet drank, or someone who is still an alcoholic, but did not drink today because they are in recovery.

Having beaten addiction may years ago, in spite of having been abused in AA and told that my human will is the cause of all problems in the world, I quit on my own. It just happens that way.

Hello WGC,

Yes, it just happens that way, sometimes. That's how it happened with me too.

Here is a dialogue that I had on youtube.

tumescent345 (3 hours ago)
Commoncummings, you're a riot! Why don't you just cut and paste the Orange Papers. You're like a parrott who repeats what they hear without understanding a word of it. Do you REALLY think Terrance Hodgkins speaks the truth? It's propaganda Cummings, and you just swallow it without hesitation or investigation. I guess next, you'll move on to "Powerless". That's the next chapter in Orange Papers. More propaganda, and Hodgkins has it completely wrong, but you'll buy right into it anyway, wont' you.

fucummings (3 hours ago)
This is hilarious. a man who has given his will and life over to an unseen higher power, who has attended meetings for thirty years to sober up, who quotes the book of aa written by bill Wilson as though it were gospel, who belongs to a religious cult which says "your best thinking got you here, fake it till you make it, your own stinkin thinkin, is accusing someone else of parroting and not thinking?
did your higher power tell you to do that or was it an order from your sponsor?

tumescent345 (3 hours ago)
Common sense — that's funny. I first came to AA in March 1967, and finally stopped drinking on Sept. 10, 1969 and I've been sober ever since — thanks to AA. See, I'm one of the ones who left in the first year.
Cummings, I want to ask you a question. Will you give me an honest answer? I would like to know — "are you an alcoholic?"

fucummings (3 hours ago)
1 you have posted that you have been attending alcoholics anonymous for over thirty years and are still an alcoholic!
2. the rest of us (haters as you call us) are no longer alcoholics. we are all sober people, who do not need to denigrate ourselves (I believe you called people "druggie"
you may call yourself an alcoholic, a drunk, a wino, a bowery bum, all you like.
those of us who have recovered, are not alcoholics anymore. you may continue to wallow in your self-imposed lifelong sentence.

tumescent345 (1 hour ago)
I didn't really expect a straightforward answer, but let me put it this way: Before you were a sober, recovered person, were you an alcoholic? Just tell the truth — it won't kill ya.

fucummings (3 minutes ago)
And you got a straight forward answer!
Sorry bud, you are not my sponsor!
This is not a forum where you keep quizzing and quizzing me, and then try to fit my answers into your AA mentality.
Time for you to answer:
Are you a drunk, a.k.a. Alcoholic, or wino?
Do you go to meetings regularly and have gone for in excess of thirty years because you are "one drink away" from a relapse into the gutter?

Time to open your kimono now
And as you said, "tell the truth, it won't kill you"

I am toying with the idea of alcoholics anonymous anonymous.
This came up when I was discussing with a friend how we were being browbeat about the "yets" that would happen if we did not give our lives over to the program. We decided that the people who were telling us this were child molesters. We said that if that hadn't ever molested a child we could say "not yet!" but that we could tell that they would one day!

This is because child molesters who have a history of substance abuse problems, poor impulse control and addictive personalities. In short, they have a malady of the spirit, and are not cured of their illness, but are perpetually in recovery. (BS weak reasoning, but stronger than what happens in the rooms)

1. I admitted that I was powerless over my addiction, cannot beat it house of meetings and therefore I have such poor impulse control that I am a potential child molester.

2. Came to believe that I have an irrational belief on an invisible power greater than myself. I have come to believe that at times when I had a hard time with this concept, I have come to believe that a toaster can control my life, and have considered praying to a toaster, or the wind or other forces of nature. when that was hard to stomach, I believed that a group of drunks who wont take their medicine, are untrained and uneducated, have no legal confidentiality with me, can actually work miracles, of the type that are described in the bible.

3. A was so insane that a decided to turn my will and my life and my decisions of my life over to an invisible deity, or my toaster, or the wind. Other times a let a group of strangers with serious mental health issues be my "higher power" clearly someone with this degree of limited intellect and impulse control, in short, with such a weak will is at high risk for acting on impulses and molesting children.

4. I engaged in a program of self hate. I basically beat myself up and read a stupid book which did so as well. It told me what a selfish evil person I was, and did so to brainwash myself so that I could accept the mind control of a cult. I was setting myself up to be mentally useless.

5. Then I prayed to the invisible man in the sky (or my toaster) and, ready for this, a trusted all of this to some stranger who I appointed to be in control of my life decisions. I allowed him to fuck with my head, and any time I said that I was right in a conflict; he browbeat me and told me that I was not being "rigorously honest" Anyone who is this weak willed has a high potential to molest children when not supervised.

6. Decided to sit around and wait for my toaster to make me a perfect person (believed in miracles)

7. Actually asked my toaster to do this. Also, I was so incredibly stupid that I needed another step to say this. 2 steps to day that I was ready for my toaster to fix me, and then asked my toaster to fix me. Again this weak mental state puts me at risk for molesting children.

8. Decided to dig up old trash, and think about everything that went wrong in life and blamed myself for it, and then, embarrassed myself by telling some mentally ill, controlling person, how everything in my life was my fault. When I tried to say that some things were not, he, in spite of having never been there, told me that I was "not being rigorously honest" and that EVERYTHING was my fault because I was an alcoholic (even if I was not drinking then or now. Clearly anyone who is this stupid and spaghetti willed could not have a meaningful relationship (was told not to anyway by my sponsor) and is at a higher risk to molest children.

9. Was ordered by the sick individual (who calls himself my sponsor, even though a sponsor is someone who pays for things, and he never paid for anything)

10 was so stupid that after this humiliating and dehumanizing experience, I allowed myself to be convinced that I had to do this repeatedly and allow a bunch of angry self proclaimed alcoholics to continuously break down my will.

11. Displayed genuine insanity. I was told to speak with an invisible man in the sky or my toaster and ask them what to do on every decision that I made. When I told the sponsor that my toaster and invisible med did not answer me, he said that he heard them talking. He said that he had years of experience and so he could hear the invisible voices. I then, did want he told me, the voices were telling me to do.

12. I then tried to proselytize this insane religion, saying that the law is wrong and that it is spiritual, and not religious, even though I could not see any meaningful distinction between the two, nor do the courts in the United States.

Thanks for the letter. That's lots of good stuff.

And have a good day.

== Orange

*             orange@orange-papers.info        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**   Woe unto them that are wise in their own eyes,
**   and prudent in their own sight!
**    == OLD TESTAMENT, Isaiah, V, 21

Date: Sun, December 14, 2008 8:30 pm     (answered 31 March 2009)
From: "Bill"
Subject: thank you

Orange,

Thank you for your web site, I am going to 12 required AA meetings for a DUI. I have completed 6 so far, and I felt I was so out of place at these "Meetings". The atmosphere was so Cult like I wanted to find out more about this AA, and ASK.com took me right to your pages. Very well done and thank you for removing the self-doubt I had begun to feel as they worked their "MAGIC".

Again thank you, I feel so much better after reading your take on the 12 steps. I do believe they are a Cult.

Bill

Hi Bill,

Thanks for the thanks. And have a good day.

== Orange

*             orange@orange-papers.info        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**   Happy the man, and happy he alone,
**   Who can call to-day his own:
**   He who, secure within, can say:
**   "To-morrow do thy worst, for I have liv'd to-day."
**     ==  HORACE, Odes, III, 29

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