Date: Thu, October 7, 2010 12:37 pm     (answered 15 October 2010)
From: "Lisa"
Subject: Something for you

Dear Orange,

I have been following you for years, and I wanted to thank you for helping me leave AA. I was a member for nearly 25 years,

I know that you collect information about AA, but do you know about the Big Book Experience" or the "Big Book Awakening?"

http://www.bigbookexperience.org

http://www.bigbookawakening.com/

My sponsor became involved with it about 10 years ago, and insisted that I "have the experience" by paying money and showing up in a room to fill out the forms. She told me it was a "Big Book Study" and invited me to eat lunch with her and one of the men she knew from the "Awakening."

I had lived in San Francisco in the 1970s, and knew several people who had been involved with est, the Krishnas, IRC, etc.. I immediately picked up on the insider jargon that I had heard from them and thought "CULT."

The gist of these studies is treating the book as if it is a sacred text, and tying back to Biblical passages. People who have done it refer to it as "The Work" and assume that they are insiders. They talk (constantly) about how much better AA was in the 1930s and how the AA GSO has ruined the "Big Book." They are specially chosen for this "work" and normal AA members are just sick.

It would be worth your while to get the Awakening book and read the questions. It is being used now in AA to treat everything from "hard cases" to "bipolar disorder" to "anxiety".

By the way, if that is you on Facebook, I befriended you,

Lisa.

Hi Lisa,

Thank you for the letter, and the information. I didn't know about that, but will happily check it out and collect all of the information that I can.

I find using cult religion to treat bipolar disorder and anxiety to be really appalling quackery. That is as bad as the previous one that I just learned about: outpatient 12 step treatment for depression.. Why aren't those creeps being prosecuted for practicing medicine without a license, and put in prison? When a black kid with a gun steals $500 from the corner store, he gets 5 years in prison. But when a white cult member steals $20,000 by selling cult religion as medical treatment, he gets more health insurance money. This has to change.

And yes, that is me on Facebook, "Orange Papers". So we are now FB friends.

Have a good day.

== Orange

*             orange@orange-papers.info        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     God is ashamed when the prosperous boast of his special favor.
**        ==  Rabindranath Tagore

Date: Thu, October 7, 2010 3:54 pm     (answered 15 October 2010)
From: "Michael G."
Subject: Hi again & http://aa.org/aatimeline/ lies !

Hi Orange,

I haven't emailed you for a while but saw this section of the www.aa.org website and was astounded at the blatant smoothing over of facts regarding AAs beginnings.

"http://aa.org/aatimeline/ > origins" talks about Bill W being a "golden boy" on Wall St who suddenly underwent a powerful spiritual experience and whose depression & despair was lifted — (implied permanently)

YAY !!!! ..........NOT... Amazing that there was no mention of the real details of Bill W's "career" (Let alone the small matter of committing Securities Fraud), no mention of the powerful spiritual experience being a result of some hardcore hallucinogenic drugs and no mention of his ongoing chronic depression for years in "recovery".

Hmmmm, it's almost like they don't want people to know the truth — especially when most AA people who will try to recreate said "spiritual experience" do it without the benefit of hallucinogenic drugs, and then feel like they failed.

Cheers

Michael G

Hello Michael,

Thanks for the letter. Yes, you hit the nail on the head. They don't want people to know the truth. They are selling a fairy tale, a work of fiction. That is standard cult behavior — rewriting history, reversal of reality, glorification of the founder. That is why Alcoholics Anonymous is a cult religion, not a real treatment for a real disease.

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             orange@orange-papers.info        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     Let the Wall Street casinos and gamblers go bankrupt.
**     Congress should quit paying off their markers with our children's money.

[The previous letter from Anthony is here.]

Date: Thu, October 7, 2010 4:32 pm     (answered 15 October 2010)
From: "Anthony V."
Subject: RE: Peter Braunstein

Hi Orange,

I was reading your site earlier, and just realized that you had published my second letter to you also. Thanks again for doing so, and thanks for your comments.

Yes, I can send you the pamphlet 'AA Guidelines, Cooperating with Court, DWI, and Similar Programs'. I'm sure you'll find it interesting. It strongly relates to the information on your site about how the courts and legal system work closely with AA. I picked it from one of the local AA 'Clubhouses', close to where my parents live, where they have all sorts of stuff like this. I don't have a scanner, but my father has one at his house, but not sure if it works...it not, I can go to Kinko's. I can also mail you a copy via regular mail if your mailing address is on the site or if you send it to me.

Regarding Peter Braunstein, you can find plenty of information on him online, including newspaper articles, television shows, jailhouse interviews etc...just no references to his long term attendance in various 12-step meetings in Manhattan. If anyone mentioned this, I missed it. I kind of knew him as an acquaintance just from attending some of the same meetings (CA and Al-Anon) in the early to mid 90s, but after I 'dropped out', I kind of lost touch with him until reading about the manhunt going on for him in the NY Post (think that was 2007). I'm actually surprised that no one else contacted you or any of the news sources about this creature...if anyone did, they certainly never published his association with the fellowship, as I have mentioned. You also mentioned in your first response to me that you had heard of the media censoring any mention of nasty criminals attending AA, and this is only one case that I know if since it was so high-profile, but I would imagine that this happens regularly. The pamphlet just sheds some more light into the nature of the alliance between AA and the legal system, and how they sort of cover for each other.'

Regards,

Anthony

Hi again, Anthony,

Thanks for the tips, and the information. Yes, I'll do some searches on that subject. And yes, I'll send my address and get that literature. Thank you.

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             orange@orange-papers.info        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     He succumbed to that gay crowd inside, who laughed at their own
**     misfortunes and understood his. Impressed by those who visited
**     him at the hospital, he capitulated entirely when, later, in an
**     upper room of this house, he heard the story of some man whose
**     experience closely tallied with his own.
**       ==  A.A. Big Book, William G. Wilson,
**            Chapter 11, A Vision For You, page 160.

May 20, 2009, Wednesday: Day 20, continued: Gosling poking around for something to munch

[More gosling photos below, here.]

Date: Sun, October 10, 2010 4:48 am     (answered 18 October 2010)
From: Jim
Subject: Good work

Thankfully your site exists or I would have had to start one up like it years ago, you have saved me years of work. I drank harder than almost anyone out there but now my life is so far removed from alcohol I spend almost no time at all ever thinking about it one bit. From time to time I check your site to check the progress of 12 step alternatives to make sure progress is being made on that front but it's still not enough. I wish I could go battle on the front lines, like I have for years, against quacks of all sorts in the medical field who just won't stop with their pushing the AA poison on people but about a year ago I just walked away after never get anywhere with it. It is truly infuriating trying to talk sense to people who won't listen, who believe themselves to be objective scientists. It is hard to believe that these deaf, blind, and stupid fools gotten as far as they have in life, but look at the world. My gripe is having watched many friends go down as victims of the 12 step poison and dance of brainless death. I too went through it and made mincemeat out of those jerks — I have nothing against the ignorant and vulnerable "newcomers" but I do despise the sociopathic "old timers" and their deadly games.

I find it so amusing that all of the 12 step groups are shedding their supposedly individual purposes, melding into 1 here in parts of SoCal, it totally exposes that at the heart of the 12 steps we find The Cult of the Ones — Bill "scumbag" Wilson and his demented, two-faced plan to rule the fools among us from his grave. Talk about a monster that needs a stake driven in its heart!

Keep it up! I wish you had a hardcover book, I would buy an entire case.

Jim

Hi Jim,

Thanks for the letter and the compliments. Of course, you know I couldn't agree more. And congratulations on your real recovery. I'm glad to hear that you are doing well.

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             orange@orange-papers.info        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     Men in general judge more from appearance than
**     from reality.  All men have eyes, but few have
**     the gift of penetration.
**        ==  Machiavelli

Date: Mon, October 11, 2010 2:17 pm     (answered 18 October 2010)
From: "Paul B."
Subject: AA

Wow you really have some serious problems.

I've been in and out of AA most of my life, I learned allot while sober, yea its not my favorite place to be but man are you way off base.

AA has allot of different people and allot of dipshits however it also has allot of very good people and very successfull people along with those who where dying on the streets.

You stated many untrue non valid claims against this program, I am currently not attending AA so I feel justified to get into controversy with this.

You need to get your facts a little more straight, AA is completely volunteer and its completely up to the individual to not get steered in the wrong direction, thats totally on you if your stupid enough to let this happen which I highly suspect is what happen to you, why else would you have such a hatred of something that helps many people unless you had some other bad experience, someone killing themself that you knew a Girl running off with someone, whatever this is not AAs fault its individuals fault.

Your AA fail rate is based on what? And what do you consider fail, because someone went and drank, Im drinking again but I live much better because of things I learned in AA, I didn't fail because of AA I just simply wanted to drink.

The thing people like you do is focus on people who go out and what you dont get is how many of them come back and end up recovering and leading great lives.

AA would not be as large as it is if it didn't work, you need to get over it and stop putting lies out there about something you know very little about.

How good will you feel if someone thats in trouble reads your bullshit and looses all hope believing these crack pot statements you make and ends up dying from some kind of overdose when he was just about to go to a meeting but came accross your crap and dies when, if he made it to a meeting he would have met that person that saves his life but instead dies because he listen to this absolute crap you wrote.

Again I am not currently a member of AA I just see the reality on both sides, I have my problems with going to meetings but thats exactly what they are my problems not AA.

I suppose you think they should build a god damn mosque at ground zero too.

When theres something helping people in trouble how could someone be against it, nothing perfect and AA is full of sick people trying to help each other, how the hell can you put that down?

Hello Paul,

Thank you for the letter.

Starting at the top, where you actually tried to make some points, rather than just declare that I'm insane:

1. "AA is completely volunteer and its completely up to the individual to not get steered in the wrong direction, thats totally on you if your stupid enough to let this happen which I highly suspect is what happen to you, why else would you have such a hatred of something that helps many people unless you had some other bad experience, someone killing themself that you knew a Girl running off with someone, whatever this is not AAs fault its individuals fault."
   

   First off, A.A. is supposed to be a safe place for people to come and recover. People are supposed to be able to trust their sponsors and the oldtimers to not steer them wrong. You are saying that this is not so and it is the responsibility of the individual newcomer to watch out for his own welfare — when he is newly detoxed and cloud-headed and vulnerable and in need of real help.

   How is a freshly-detoxed, confused, disoriented newcomer supposed to defend himself or herself from the predations of an unscrupulous sponsor? How is that newcomer supposed to know whether the oldtimer is giving good advice or lying?

   A.A. is most emphatically not "completely volunteer". That is obviously untrue. People are routinely sentenced to A.A. And 93% of the treatment centers in this country sell 12-Step religion as a quack cure for alcohol abuse and drug addiction, and that attendance is not voluntary either.

   And then you can't understand why someone would criticize a quack medicine fraud that harms people? Quack medicine that kills more people than it helps? You think it must have something to do with a girl running off with someone?

2. "Your AA fail rate is based on what? And what do you consider fail, because someone went and drank, Im drinking again but I live much better because of things I learned in AA, I didn't fail because of AA I just simply wanted to drink."
   

   The A.A. failure rate is based on everything in the file on The Effectiveness of the Twelve-Step Treatment. There is a large amount of evidence that A.A. is a failure, ranging from the doctors' tests of A.A., to A.A.'s own literature declaring the A.A. failure and dropout rates, to indirect indicators like the declining numbers of sobriety coins given out.

   So you are drinking again, but you consider yourself a success? A.A. does not. Do you go to A.A. meetings and proudly declare that you have zero weeks of sobriety and that the A.A. teachings are helping you to drink? If not, then how do you credit A.A. with improving your life? How do the A.A. teachings help you to drink successfully? A.A. says that you cannot drink moderately.

3. "The thing people like you do is focus on people who go out and what you dont get is how many of them come back and end up recovering and leading great lives."
   

   Where is the evidence for this? How many of them do come back, and how did you measure or count that? And how do you define "leading great lives"?

   Bill Wilson made the same unsubstantiated claim in the Big Book, too:

   "Other thousands came to a few A.A. meetings and at first decided they didn't want the program. But great numbers of these — about two out of three — began to return as time passed."
   Bill Wilson, Foreword to the Second Edition of the Big Book, page XX

   But Bill Wilson was lying, and just blowing hot air.

4. "AA would not be as large as it is if it didn't work..."

   Wrong, totally wrong. Both Scientology and the Moonies are evil cults that are big and have lots of members. Do you believe that Scientology and the Moonies are great successes because they are large? That is the propaganda trick called Appeal to Numbers (Argumentum ad Numerum).

5. Then you said,

   "How good will you feel if someone thats in trouble reads your bullshit and looses all hope believing these crack pot statements you make and ends up dying from some kind of overdose when he was just about to go to a meeting but came accross your crap and dies when, if he made it to a meeting he would have met that person that saves his life but instead dies because he listen to this absolute crap you wrote."
   

   Spoken like a true Stepper. You are still a true believer member of the cult, aren't you? A drinking member of the cult. You are joining a long list of Steppers who have claimed that telling the truth about Alcoholics Anonymous does harm to desperate alcoholics who are going to die.

   There is zero evidence that going to a 12-Step meeting will keep addicts from overdosing. Many doctors have found that Alcoholics Anonymous makes things worse:

   1. Dr. Brandsma found that A.A. increased the rate of binge drinking.
   2. Dr. Ditman found that A.A. increased the rate of rearrests for public drunkenness.
   3. Dr. Walsh found that "free A.A." made later hospitalization more expensive.
   4. Drs. Orford and Edwards, found that having a doctor talk to the patient for just one hour was just as effective as a whole year of A.A.-based treatment.
   5. Dr. George E. Vaillant the A.A. Trustee found that A.A. treatment was completely ineffective, and raised the death rate in alcoholics.

6. "Again I am not currently a member of AA I just see the reality on both sides, I have my problems with going to meetings but thats exactly what they are my problems not AA."
   

   Oh really? You defend A.A. vigorously, and claim that it really works to save the lives of addicts, but you "have your problems" with A.A. and don't go to meetings?

   Could it be that they put you down and ridicule you and call you a failure for drinking alcohol, and having zero sober time?

7. This line really says it all:

   "I suppose you think they should build a god damn mosque at ground zero too."
   

   So, you are really just an angry hateful religious bigot, aren't you? Just like the terrorists. And you sound like a Tea Party nutcase, too. Why don't you do something about that "resentment" of yours? Didn't A.A. and Bill Wilson teach you that you are axiomatically spiritually wrong to have a resentment?

   For your information, the "mosque at ground zero" is not at Ground Zero. It's several blocks away. That is just a fake issue, a red herring that some trouble-makers made up. In addition, the "mosque" is really a community center that just includes a mosque on the second floor. Furthermore, the people organizing the thing are Sufis. The Sufis are the most peaceful, tolerant, open-minded sect of Islam that there is. I know, I've hung out with them and gone to their religious services. They had the symbols of all of the religions of the world on the walls around the room, and we did prayers and chants from all of the world's religions during the service. That eliminates any tendency towards religious bigotry. You can't criticize the Jews or the Christians or the Buddhists, because you are doing their prayers too, and sharing in their philosophy. But you wouldn't know about that, would you?

   I had a very enlightening experience there. During the ceremony, my son was pointing at the symbols on the walls, and asking what they were. Ghosts from my own childhood popped up — "you are not supposed to talk in church" — so I shushed him, and told him in a whisper to be quiet. The minister (or whatever you call him) immediately stopped the ceremony, and squatted down beside my son, and answered his questions. He pointed out the various symbols, and said, "That's the Jewish star, that's the Christian cross, that's the crescent moon of Islam," and so on. Then he looked up at me with a smile, and stood back up, and resumed the ceremony. His gaze said so much. He was also teaching me. The ceremony is meaningless and useless if you don't get the energy right, so that's why he stopped the ceremony, fixed the energy, and then continued.

   Imagining that Moslems are all alike, and that they are all terrorists, is like thinking that there is no difference between the Quakers and the Ku Klux Klan. They are all Christians, aren't they?

8. Finally, you wrote:

   "When theres something helping people in trouble how could someone be against it, nothing perfect and AA is full of sick people trying to help each other, how the hell can you put that down?"
   

   Well, that's the whole thing, isn't it? A.A. does not work. A.A. just increases the rate of binge drinking and increases the death rate in alcoholics. A.A. is just a quack medicine fraud. So I'd better denounce it and put it down.

== Orange

*             orange@orange-papers.info        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     "The ideal tyranny is that which is ignorantly self-administered by
**     its victims. The most perfect slaves are, therefore, those which
**     blissfully and unawaredly enslave themselves."
**        == Dresden James

[The next letter from Paul is here.]

Date: Tue, October 12, 2010 8:07 am     (answred 18 October 2010)
From: "stefan h."
Subject: Hey Interesting Stuff

I stopped going to AA about 4 months ago officially after almost 14 years. And I think I was a "bad AA" as all I did was go to meetings and make coffee once in a while.

I love your book and thanks for all the writing and research. I keep telling myself I need to stop reading it though because it gets me so !ANGRY!! HA. Fucking AA. I guess I am just surprised it took me so long to listen to my intuition, and think for myself without hesitation.

I have never liked the Big Book and now I can say, I WILL NEVER PICK IT UP AGAIN! Such rubbish.

Unfortunately I work as a counselor at a TC in Manhattan (trained graphic designer, I have no idea how that happened). But I do my best at being fair, and doing my job as directed. Accountability is not such a bad thing, taking the "bench" is a bit weird... but at least they legally are not wearing signs and shaving heads :)

Yikes.

Planning on getting my master in Social Work so I can transition to another modality and continue to help people in some way.

Thanks for listening

Oh, also, I got tired of feeling like shit and AA was doing nothing for me except making things worse with the Bull Shit. I got a therpist and Psychiatrist who both agreed with me that I should stop going to meetings. Best advice I've gotten in years.

I have an analogy regarding talking to people manipulated in AA about the reality of AA, it's like trying to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

Hello Stefan,

Thank you for the letter. I'm glad to hear that you are feeling better. Welcome to freedom and sanity.

Getting your Masters sounds like a very good thing to do. That will give you the credentials to be influential and get other treatment modalities established. And it will give you the credentials to contradict and argue with the current talking heads who pretend to be knowledgeable recovery counselors because they have a diploma. (Remember the Scarecrow in the Wizard of Oz? At the end of the movie, the Wizard declared that there were all kinds of "experts" and "authorities" and "thinkers" who didn't have any more brains than the Scarecrow. But they did have one thing that the Scarecrow didn't have — a diploma.)

So have a good day now, and a good life.

== Orange

*             orange@orange-papers.info        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**    Truth is the foundation of all knowledge and the cement of all societies.
**       ==  John Dryden (1631—1700)

Date: Tue, October 12, 2010 7:31 pm     (answered 18 October 2010)
From: "Teresa W."
Subject: Thank you

Hello,

Yes, I've been drinking off and on since I was a teenager. I've had a DUI. I stopped drinking over a month ago because I was just fed up with my own crap and drinking was not fun anymore, not even one. I'm an athelete and it just didn't make sense anymore.

I stopped going to AA a couple of weeks ago because it was actually making my life worse! I become more depressed, felt bad about myself every time I walked out of the room. My sponsor was Hell on wheels. Calling my cell and yelling at me if I didn't call her. I was so pissed off at this place that I left town for 5 days to ride my mountain bike in Moab, UT. During that time I chilled out and realized I wanted nothing to do with this place.

People would say until I gave it up and just became part of the Herd, my life would be hell. To declare myself a drunk when I say my name, I'm a sinner, not like anyone else.. normal people don't do this. I felt like I just joined a cult.

So tonight I went online and googled, "AA can really be a negative place". I was thinking maybe I'm just a failure for not "going along with AA". Then I read your entire article on, "The effectiveness of the twelve-step treatment" I just really want to thank you for that paper. I'm 39, educated, love athletics; have so much good going on. I have no desire to drink; it's me, not those people down at AA helping me. I understand how AA could actually cause people to return to the bars. They basically preach you have no good sense so all these smart wise people in AA will kindly show you the way to happiness. You know, I've never seen a flippin happy person in AA; I've seen a false sense of power over others, preaching, lecturing, putting people down... DONE. I don't have this sick desire to drink daily. I haven't had it since I just decided enough was enough.

Your acticle actually made me feel better and even more confident, I just don't drink anymore, end of story. Maybe I won't go to Hell after all. :)

yikes

Teresa

Hello Teresa,

Thank you for the letter. Yes, you've got it. If alcohol is making you sick and ruining your life, then just don't drink any more alcohol. It's so simple. No need for cult religion, no need for putting yourself down and labeling yourself a powerless unspiritual alcoholic sinner. Just walk away from it all and be free.

Have a good day, and a good life now.

== Orange

*             orange@orange-papers.info        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**      To think we are able is almost to be so; to determine upon
**      attainment is frequently attainment itself; earnest resolution
**      has often seemed to have about it a savor of omnipotence.
**         ==  Samuel Smiles (1812—1904)

Date: Wed, October 13, 2010 8:32 am     (answered 18 October 2010)
From: "Jeff H."
Subject: Your web page (Chapter 24: The Last Hurrah: Up With People)

I don't know who you are nor where your information on MRA and Up With People comes from, but I was a (small) part of that experience and movement and I want you to know that my experience of it was nothing like what you recount. My uncle was a correspondent of Frank Buchman and of Peter Howard and through him I met both men and had the opportunity for several (more or less private) discussions with them about Moral Re-Armament. Neither man ever displayed any of the ego- centric characteristics of the cult leader, none of the "I have the one and only true way" nor the "you must do what I tell you to" behaviors that psychologists and sociologists have identified as key elements of the cult leader. In my personal experience, both of them consistently displayed the appropriate humility of a man who knows he is imperfect yet seeking to understand God's will and follow it as best he can. Of course, both also displayed the fire and determination of, let's say, a Martin Luther in challenging what they say as "the establishment's" failures to be guided by God's will. But both of them consistently allowed for others to disagree with them, even publicly, and certainly allowed people to leave the "movement" whenever they wished and even encouraged others to start their own movements where they felt a calling to do so.

Jeff

Hello Jeff,

Thank you for the letter. So, you met Frank Buchman and Peter Howard for what, several fifteen-minute or one-hour conversations? And because they were nice to you then, you have decided that they were not dogmatic cult leaders? Do you really think that Frank Buchman would reveal all of his worst characteristics to you in a short period of time? He was a very skilled cult leader. He was good at fooling people.

Cult leaders are usually clever and intelligent, and know how to deceive and manipulate people. That is how they become successful cult leaders, while less-skilled con artists fail to attract and hold a following and build up a big cult. Being charismatic is also a big plus for any cult leader.

"Displaying humility" does not prove that someone is good, or a virtuous Christian. See the signature below.

Both Frank Buchman and Peter Howard most assuredly did make many declarations like "I have the one and only true way" and "you must do what I tell you to". Have you actually bothered to read their books and speeches, and see what they really said, and taught and promoted?

God-controlled supernationalism is the only sure foundation for world peace.
Frank Buchman, speaking at Zürich, Switzerland, 6 October 1935,
Remaking the World, the speeches of Frank Buchman, Frank N. D. Buchman, page 50.

== Orange

*             orange@orange-papers.info        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     And the Devil did grin, for his darling sin,
**     is pride that apes humility.
**        ==  Samuel Taylor Coleridge, The Devil's Thoughts

[The next letter from Jeff is here.]

Date: Wed, October 13, 2010 8:45 am     (answered 18 October 2010)
From: "Tim W."
Subject: AA and Me

Hi I wonder whether you can answer a couple of questions I have.

I have been dry for a year but I still feel angry and upset with myself. I want to drink again and I know that it will kill me if I do.

I have thought about going to AA. Is it as bad as you are saying it is?

I want to make new friends and get some support so will it be a dangerous as you say to go along?

Do they want anything from me for going to AA?

You say it's a cult but I always think of cults as having an agenda.

I can't see what anybody in AA is going to gain from me by me going to meetings?

Can you tell me.

Will they brainwash me and if they do will they take my money off me?

Thanks

Tim

Hello Tim,

Thank you for the letter. You ask some very good questions.

First off, let me congratulate you on your sobriety. You did it. You know that you did it, and you deserve the credit for it. If you go to A.A., they will tell you that you cannot do it; you are "powerless over alcohol", and that A.A. gets the credit for your sobriety. Be prepared for that.

In fact, be prepared to be lied to a lot. And if you challenge their lies and try to tell the truth, they will silence you and mock you and ostracize you. If you think you are feeling angry and frustrated by not drinking now, wait until you see how angry you feel at what they will do to you in A.A.

Remember that A.A. increases the rate of binge drinking and increases the death rate in alcoholics.

Now in all fairness, you might actually enjoy some of the community and fellowship at an A.A. meeting. But understand that it will come at a high price. They do not want your money. Their goal is not to brainwash you and get your wallet. (That makes A.A. an unusual cult.) They just want your mind, your life, and your soul.

But really, I would look for an alternative group. SMART and SOS and Lifering come to mind. They have both face-to-face meetings and online meetings. Here is the list of such groups. Click on this link.

Also see this recent letter where we were talking about dealing with the emotional turmoil that comes with recovery. And don't forget the B vitamins.

You can also see the lists of "what works" to pick out the items that relate to emotional recovery. The short list is here, and the longer list is here. And more thoughts about what has worked for me is here.

Oh, by the way, what you are feeling is normal. I also went through a period of feeling angry and frustrated, especially in the second and third years of sobriety, and I was warned about that by another fellow who was going through it before me. Alcohol makes major changes to the brain, and it takes some time to heal the damage.

Have a good day now, and have a good life.

== Orange

*             orange@orange-papers.info        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**    The secret of health for both mind and body is
**    not to mourn for the past, nor to worry about the future,
**    but to live the present moment wisely and earnestly.
**     ==  Buddha

Date: Thu, October 14, 2010 7:44 pm     (answered 19 October 2010)
From: "Carla H."
Subject: 12 step Snake Oil

I am really enjoying the articles — especially this one — I completely agree that when we are getting sober and starting to actually feel good and get our self respect back — AA wants to focus on your character defects and shortcomings, etc. — just what I don't need — I was always good at cutting myself down and probably apologized way too much when I was drinking — now I just want to be happy and rejoice — no more whining and complaining, please.

Thanks so much for this website — I feel free again — just like when I decided to stop (before another round of AA) — I know I do not want to drink anymore and believe in self reliance more than dependency on a strange set of rules to obey. . . .

Thanks,

Carla

Hi Carla,

Thanks for the thanks. You've got it. You understand. I don't need to tell you anything.

So have a good day now.

== Orange

*             orange@orange-papers.info        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     Few things are harder to put up with than
**       the annoyance of a good example.
**         ==  Mark Twain (Samuel Longhorne Clemens) 1835—1910

May 20, 2009, Wednesday: Day 20, continued: Four Canada Goose Goslings from another family, napping Here, you can easily see the large difference in size between the gosling sexes at this age. The small gosling in the middle, whose head you cannot see, is a girl. She is dwarfed by her brothers. The fourth gosling, in the upper right, where you can only see the head, looks like another girl. We cannot see the size of her body, but her head is smaller and narrower than her brothers' heads. So it looks like this family has two boys and two girls.

[The story of Carmen continues here.]

BLOG NOTE: 20 October 2010.

Well, here it is. The anniversary. Now it's 10 years off of alcohol and drugs. How time flies. And in three more weeks, it will be 10 years without a cigarette.

And it's ten years of sobriety without any cult religion, or doing the 12 Steps, or having a sponsor, or "admitting I am powerless over alcohol", or going to meetings and bragging about how A.A. and God are saving me, or any of that garbage.

Free at last, free at last. Thank God Almighty, I'm free at last.

And to celebrate, I'm going to a lake with a girlfriend to photograph wildlife.

Have a good day. I will.

== Orange

Date: Tue, October 19, 2010 12:52 pm     (answered 21 October 2010)
From: "Stacy"
Subject: Congratulations!

Hi Orange

It's your 10 year anniversary!

Massive respect to you and heartfelt thanks for all you've been doing to expose the damaging 12-step racket for what it really is. Reading what you write has been a huge help, comfort and inspiration to me personally, and I'm sure to thousands of others. I can't thank you enough for that.

I love the way you deal with all the letters that tell you that you're either an alcoholic who could not stay sober so have a "resentment" against AA. Or — equally — those that tell you you are not an alcoholic and therefore don't know what you're talking about. I love the way you answer people with facts and quiet reason, because you, unlike AA apologists, have actually bothered to research the facts and have enough respect for people to argue with reason and not with unthinking slogans. I love your dry sense of humour, your compassion, your energy, and your anger at this terrible fraud that is perpetuated under the guise of "helping" alcoholics and addicts. I love the fact that that there must be so many steppers out there who really hope (and are probably praying to the AA god) that you will start drinking again, and that you prove them wrong again and again. I love your geese too.

This is an unashamed bit of fan mail. But if you can't have that on significant dates like this, when can you?

Have a great day, and wishing you many, many more happy years.

Stacy

Hi Stacy,

Thank you for the good wishes. And yes, I think we can have a bit of fan mail on a date like this.     :-)

And thanks for all of the compliments.

And you know what just occurred to me? Not to gloat too much, but I am going to gloat a bit: After 10 years, my 12-Step-oriented "counselor" that I got in that Portland Alternate Addiction Center "treatment program" that I talked about in the introduction to the web site is now out of prison, is still on parole, and is labeled a sex offender for life. And I, on the other hand, by following none of his instructions and teachings — other than "don't drink or dope" — am celebrating my 10th anniversary off of drugs and alcohol and cigarettes.

I never imagined an outcome like that 10 years ago. Now I did believe that I would make it, because I was determined to recover my health and not die of alcohol addiction or emphysema or lung cancer, but I never imagined that I would end up doing this web site while he would go to prison for snorting cocaine and raping children.

Wow. Sometimes reality is stranger than fiction.

So you have a good day too.

== Orange

*             orange@orange-papers.info        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**    I would give nothing for that man's religion, whose
**     very dog and cat are not the better for it.
**       ==  Rowland Hill

Date: Thu, October 21, 2010 5:58 am
From: "Facebook"
Subject: Claire S. posted on your Wall.

Claire wrote:
"Congratulations on ten years and thanks so much for all you do!"

Date: Thu, October 21, 2010 10:13 am
From: "Facebook"
Subject: Doug McK. posted on your Wall.

Doug wrote:
"Congratulations on 10 Years, the work and research that you do and for being able to put that info into a very informative and easy to understand format — even us guitar players can understand it!"

Date: Thu, October 21, 2010 11:38 am
From: "Facebook"
Subject: Katie M. posted on your Wall.

Katie wrote:
"Congratulations and thank you for everything!"

Date: Tue, October 19, 2010 5:52 pm
From: "Michael G.S.,SYDNEY"
Subject: RE: Hi again & http://aa.org/aatimeline/ lies !

Thanks Orange

And a BIG congratulations to you for 10 years off alcohol & drugs !!

Well done mate !

Michael G.-S.

Date: Thu, October 21, 2010 12:36 am
From: "Facebook"
Subject: Ray Smith posted on your Wall.

Ray wrote:
"Congrats on 10 years."

Date: Tue, October 19, 2010 4:43 pm
From: "Facebook"
Subject: John A. posted on your Wall.

John wrote:
"Happy Sobriety Day Terrance. (I despise calling it a "birthday"! LOL)"

Thank you one and all, and have a good day now.

== Orange

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Last updated 8 March 2013.
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