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Hi I intend to agree with what you have to say, i have been in the fellowship for a long time now and it seems to be getting worse instead of better. If i had of known what i was coming into i would have walked straight back out again. At the start i so much wanted to stop drinking and i thank god i dont have that desire anymore, but what pisses me off is the so-called spiritual aa know-alls that know f--- all that judge, they ask how many meetings do you do a week, i can sponsor you. "I never asked for one — piss off",,,,, and they say that is just your ego, or your alcoholisim, blah blah blah, everything is analysed..... I'm sick and tired of it all, so i am deciding to move away from it all, i trust and believe in myself, i dont need these sick b--------- around me anymore, they say they are your friend but the minute you choose to go another path they don't want to know you, they call that spirituality, i call it control and they are all control freaks...
Hi Michele,
Thanks for the letter. Sorry to take so long to answer it; I'm way behind on
answering email. I hope that by now you are free and feeling better.
Yes, it is incredible what gets passed off as spirituality, isn't it?
And it isn't just A.A.; the same bad behavior goes on in a zillion cult religions —
like the Moonies, and Scientology, and the Hari Krishnas, and the FLDS, and
on and on...
Have a good day.
== Orange
[from the wishlist]
Once somebody buys into one of those models of reality, a perceptual filter kicks in
where they notice more and more "facts" that appear to reinforce their chosen beliefs,
and they ignore any conflicting information that comes along, so they become
more and more convinced of the correctness of their beliefs —
"It's all so obvious to anyone who learns the real truth!"
So what is a good name for that phenomenon?
Apophenia — Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Aha! Thank you very much. That's it precisely.
Have a good day.
== Orange
The goslings are funny about this squirrel. They are really afraid of it.
Every time the squirrel comes down the tree, the goslings run to me for protection.
I don't know if they think it might be a river rat, which really is dangerous
because the river rats eat ducklings and goslings. But all that this squirrel
wants is some of the bread.
 In the afternoon, we went up onto the roof, where people were sunbathing, because it turned into a beautiful sunny day, and the goslings did some sunbathing too. This little fellow isn't really dying of the heat, although he sort of looks it in this photo. He has just been playing in the water and is still dripping.
 [The story of the goslings continues here.]
AA is not a cult, although I can see as it has offered it's followers relief from addiction by following the steps, some members may subscribe to it with a do or die attitude. You've done more harm than good.
Hi Jenny,
A.A. is not a cult? On what basis do you make such a statement?
What do you think a cult is?
Have you read
The Cult Test?
When I score A.A. as a cult there, what part of my answers is wrong?
And then you finished with the standard cultish A.A. attack,
"You've done more harm than good" — "You are doing a great disservice
to those seeking sobriety" — "Don't tell alcoholics the truth"...
Oh well, have a good day anyway.
== Orange
how did you swing the .org?
Hi Doug,
Thanks for the letter.
The .ORG suffix was easy — just ask for it.
There are no longer any hard rules where you have to be a registered non-profit
to get a .ORG suffix.
I chose .ORG because .COM wasn't appropriate — I'm not running a commercial
enterprise. And I'm not a university, so .EDU is out. And I'm not the government,
so .GOV is out. So .ORG was pretty much the default.
HH His Holiness Tenzin Gyatso The Dalai Lama would surely be compassionate towards you despite your efforts at charactor assassination. I , sober these 27 years because of the imposters who started AA wish I could feel the same compassion but I am not so highly evolved
I don't engage in "character assassination". I just tell the truth, including the
truth about some nasty reprobates who started cults.
Your belief that you are sober because of A.A. is not evidence that A.A. actually
works, or that you are sober because of A.A.
The reality is that A.A. does not work, and the people who quit drinking
in A.A. are just the ones who were going to quit anyway.
Every time A.A. has been put to the test,
it failed. When a Trustee of A.A. tried to prove that A.A. works,
he accidentally proved that
A.A. has the highest death rate
of any way of treating alcoholism that he studied.
Since you have been around A.A. for 27 years, you are a good one to ask:
Out of each 1000 newcomers to A.A., how many will pick up a one-year
sobriety medallion a year later?
Clearly because you are special.
And there it is again — the same cultish attack as
the previous letter
made:
However many holy words you read, however many you speak, what good will they do you if you do not act upon them?
That's good. So do you practice that wisdom by unfailingly telling the truth about
Alcoholics Anonymous to the newcomers? Do you speak up and tell the truth
at the start of each meeting when confused people start to read the
plastic-laminated dogma that is three pages of Bill Wilson's lies? (Pages 58 through
60 of the Big Book.)
You know,
"RARELY HAVE we seen a person fail..."
Do you tell the truth then, and tell the newcomers what really happens?
Oh well, have a good day anyway.
== Orange
I love your site, even though I still go to AA. I guess I'm an AA insider rebel, and I say whatever to whoever, whenever, but I have friends there also. Anyway, I moved to Thailand, and found plenty of English speaking and other foreign speaking AA meetings. When I asked about Thai AA, they had one meeting in the country for 60 million people. Hmmm. my little town there of about 5,000 expats had 23 meetings a week. So of course we got to work printing AA thai literature and bringing it to hospitals, etc. Bottom line they wanted the BB reprinted because they don't do God, They do Sacred Being. Now there's problem with world service [AAWS], because they may not allow that printing. Also the fact is they have about a 30 to 50% recovery rate without AA. A lot of these people live in very rural villages and no transportation.. They go to the local temple or get help from friends. They really do NOT like AA, and have never embraced it, and the only reason Thai AA meetings even exist now, is because some of the foreign AAs pay to get them to the meetings, and help set up the meetings, and they are NOT self supporting, and eventually it will die on the vine. AA is so worldwide, it may not die out, because as you said the social value, but I sure would like some way of getting more people to see about Bill W. When i tell people in meetings that Bill Wilson died of nicotine addiction which does not sound too spiritual (most are shocked) and the womanizing thing, they just laugh about it. Ok.... enough.
peace and Love,
Hello Eddie,
Thanks for an intriguing letter.
They get a 30 to 50% recovery rate without A.A.?
Maybe all of us alcoholics should convert to Buddhism... :-)
So the A.A. supporters have to pay to
promote A.A. in Thailand? That doesn't surprise me.
The sort of conflicts with
the A.A. "tradition"
about
"a program of attraction, not promotion", doesn't it?
And it directly contradicts Bill's bragging about the universality of
his "spiritual principles":
In his official history of Alcoholics Anonymous, Bill claimed that he
received this letter from a Presbyterian minister who was doing missionary work
in the Far East:
I have to laugh.
Oh well, have a good day anyway.
By the way, if you print your own translation of an out-of-copyright earlier
edition of the Big Book, the A.A.W.S. headquarters cannot forbid that.
They may grumble, and even fraudulently sue and commit perjury, like
they did in Germany
and
Mexico,
but legally they have no say in the matter. Out-of-copyright
documents are in the public domain. That's why those of us who are in the USA
can download old copies of the Big Book over the Internet for free.
The A.A. headquarters does not dare to sue over that, because if they do, it will
result in the Big Book being legally declared out of copyright,
which then blows away all of the foreign copyrights that depend on the
USA copyright.
Have another good day.
== Orange
Mr. Orange
I scanned through your writing on Alcoholics Anonymous and have mixed
opinions. I noticed you seemed , for what ever reason , missed out on A.A. purpose.... we do not wish to engage in any controversy neither do we endorse or oppose any causes. The primary purpose is to stay sober and help other recover. It's about saving skins . Yes a personal experience with Yeshua is exactly that .... a personal experience . I have crossed paths with many in A.A. over the decades who have had this experience as well as some don't have that experience . I have observed this also in churches. I am sorry that you seem to need to be critical of a group of people that have been given a second chance at life cuz most of them would be dead if they didn't get turned around. Myself , in 1963 , a back slidden christian voiced the words in desparation ..... God if their is a God , your will be done in my life. Yes He is "faithful and just to forgive all those that repent" ( turn around ) . Patti and I are retired and having our 47 wedding aniversary in a few months . Our 2 childern are now adults. We have grand children & great grand children .... all are healthy and blessed. It all started when believers prayed through for me when I was not into seeing any truths. Seems when God puts it on one heart to pray , something is born .... most things are wrought by prayer, wouldnt you say . A week after I hollered help seems God saw fit to introduce me to a bunch of sober drunks that were capable of loving me enough until I could start loving myself. I discovered He meets me on my own turf ..... didn't Paul use it .... when they were weak He was weak. I'm not sure your kind understands the language from the heart. At that time I began to find out some truths that started setting me free. I am being blessed daily with the opportunity to be a friend of some that are having a little more trouble then the rest of us.....and I don't need to force-feed them . Some of them are looking much healthier then they once did and yes there is resoration in their lives. Like I said when I started this note .... I can't see where you are helping any one by the tone of your writings. My prayers are that God will humble you cuz in a different light I can see where a person of your calibre has much to offer. My personal opinion and experience with A.A. for the part 45 years can be expressed in one Greek word ..... koinania . First century Christianity had it. I found koinania to be almost absent in most churches although I do find it's present in a few assembly of believers.
Best Regards,
Hello Jack,
First off, you assume that A.A. actually works and makes alcoholics quit drinking and
stay quit. There is no evidence — zero evidence — that A.A. really does that.
You talk about having seen thousands of people who once drank too much alcohol
and now don't. That's good. That is evidence that some people finally get their
act together and quit self-destructive behavior.
But that isn't evidence that A.A. actually did anything for them.
Every time A.A. has been tested to see if it works or does anything good,
A.A. failed. Failed badly. Like
increased the rate of binge drinking,
and
increased the death rate in alcoholics.
To claim that A.A. is too spiritual to engage in controversy is a cop-out.
A really big cop-out. You have groups like
the Midtown Group raping young girls
and you are too "spiritual" to do anything about it, or put a stop to it.
That is not spirituality. That is moral cowardice.
If you were really spiritual, you would act like Jesus Christ when he picked up a whip
and drove the thieving money-changers from the temple.
It's time for you A.A. true believers to clean house. But you aren't going
to do it, are you? You will sit on your duffs until the name of A.A. is
so totally besmirched that nobody dares to go there any more.
Oh well, maybe that is really for the best. Maybe you are doing the
world a favor by letting the rapists and criminals destroy A.A.
It's time for A.A. to die, and something better to replace it.
Have a good day anyway.
== Orange
Dear Sir, I have just stumbled upon your pages with some interest. I am just coming up to one year of sobriety, using AA, and using it, I feel, in a thinking, non-slavish fashion, free of any of the fetishistic qualities that one encounters. I simply find contact with other people in recovery to be cheering and helpful. I will try to read your material further, but have stumbled at the start. At the foot of your introduction you write: "So let's really, honestly, investigate Alcoholics Anonymous, without rejecting criticism of A.A. before investigation of all of the facts... " So...I move to the next section, The 12 Biggest Secrets of AA, to find the statement:
"Twelve Steps do
not work as a program of recovery from drug or alcohol problems." Surely, by using this statement as your opening salvo, you have done exactly what you vowed not to do in your introduction — you have rejected and criticized AA prior to investigation. The statement that Twelve Steps do no work would surely have been written in conclusion had you adhered to your own statement of intent. Instead the statement appears prior to any investigative, supportive, or explanatory material. I do not contest that such material may appear further down the page — my point, I repeat, is that your damning verdict precedes it. A brief glance also reveals your reference to 'mandatory' AA and NA meetings. There are no such things. It may well be that your attendance was deemed mandatory by an outside organisation rather than AA itself; that is an entirely different thing! To my knowledge no actual meetings themselves could not be described as mandatory. Yours sincerely, Charlie
Hello Charlie,
I wrote this line:
To argue that it is "contempt prior to investigation" because of
the positioning of some items on the page is absurd. That's really desperately
reaching for something to complain about.
You think there is no such thing as mandatory A.A. meetings?
You are just engaging in word games.
Go to any drug court or traffic court and
watch the judge sentencing people to A.A. meetings.
(Or sentencing people to "treatment programs", which
include a whole lot of mandatory A.A. meetings.)
And please don't tell me that A.A. doesn't encourage it.
They do.
Have a good day.
== Orange
Dear mr. Orange: I drank heavily after my father and my first wife died. After a year, I quit. Then, I went AA for a while. And, to SMART online — no face to face meetings AA left me cold; basically turned me off. It had nothing to do with what I did or did not do. It meant nothing to me. After reading about it, I know why. SMART was useful; the tools were good; the message board and chat room were good. For a while. I guess that it was time to leave. I think that there is a time to leave. I worked through my grief; sorted out my priorities; did what I needed to do — get married again, move 1300 miles. I was not an "alcoholic". I did not actually have that serious a drinking problem. There seems to be a doctrine of: you can't do it on your own. And, abstain is the only way. That does seem an undercurrent in the recovery game. Well, I did it on my own; I do not abstain. I am living a normal life. I bet that many people pay a visit to the recovery world — aa or some other place — and say, NO — and do it on their own. I think that there is something off kilter. anonymous
Hi anonymous,
Thanks for the letter and the story. I'm glad to hear that you are doing well.
And I agree that something is off kilter.
Have a good day.
== Orange
It took me a long time to find you on the web. I am dealing with a young client who I believe has been traumatized by residential 12-step treatment. I've been fascinated and amazed by your material, and am sharing some with him — especially the jokes — in the hope that he will get some solace from it. I've had warm-fuzzy feelings about AA for 30 years, but no longer. I fell for a lot of this stuff myself when I was younger (it seems smart people can make themselves very stupid), and I can easily see how seriously damaging it can be to others (especially in a coercive setting like residential youth facilities). Thank you for doing what you do. If you have any suggestions for helping a young person get through a rough period (still getting into some trouble, threatened with more 12-step "treatment," etc.) I'd be grateful. Lesley
Hello Lesley,
Thank you for the letter and the compliments. I'm sorry to take
so long to answer it; I'm way behind in answering email.
I hope your young client is doing well. You make me wish I were a psychologist or
a therapist, which I'm not.
Something that I do feel qualified to talk about is anger, because I still have
problems with it. I'm 62 years old and I still have anger issues over childhood
abuse. So I suspect that I can feel a little of what your client feels.
I still have to work on letting go of anger. I know that keeping it does me
no good; it just gets me all uptight and wastes my energy.
I ran across a relevant quote recently:
It's easy to feel entitled to be angry, and he is entitled to be angry, but
it does no good, and isn't worth the bother.
Perhaps some
SMART
training might help. They teach techniques for
recognizing irrational thoughts and assumptions, and dealing with them.
SMART is good for learning how to stop driving yourself crazy.
Have a good day.
== Orange
Hi I read your paper online "Powerless over Alcohol", and I'm just wondering: what do you have against the AA program? Personally, I am in the midst of quitting alcohol, and AA is the thing that's getting me through the day. Maybe just because it didn't work for you or you think it's a weird "cult", doesn't mean it's a hoax. It really works for other people, me included. So please stop thinking of yourself as an educator or have some higher knowledge. You don't obviously. Carol D.V.
Hello Carol,
What do I have against A.A.? Well, how about the fact that
it doesn't work, and
they lie about that fact
at the start of every meeting.
And then they harm a lot of people with misinformation about alcoholism
and recovery, and
raise the death rate
in alcoholics. Is that enough for you?
It's sad that you cannot come up with a better attack than the usual
often-parrotted A.A. claim that "Maybe just because it didn't work for you..."
As I have often said, "I never did the 12 Steps, I never had a sponsor, and I
haven't gone to a single A.A. meeting in 7 years now, but I have 8 years of sobriety."
So have a good day.
== Orange
Thanks again for your great paper on AA. I went for several years but realized it was a cult and got out after I read your stuff. Thanks for helping me help myself. It's not about a "higher power" it's about an INNER power. Thanks again. Kevin
Hi Kevin,
Thanks for the compliments. And that's the essence of it, isn't it?
"It's not about a higher power, it's about an INNER power."
Have a good day.
== Orange
Hi Mr. Orange, Thank you for your work. I am currently going to AA to pacify my estranged wife and gain the right to see my little girl again. The wife has a restraining order against me, is a compulsive liar, and is a prescription amphetamine addict (adderall for ADD). She is a long way away from admitting that she has a problem, because her shrink/society/family tell her that she is defective and needs adderall to get to the level of others. She is really just spoiled (filthy rich family), weak willed, and lazy. Long story. Anyway, I quickly took issue with "step 1", as I feel I am not powerless, but powerfull, and responsible for and capable of changing my behavior. At the end of AA meetings, someone signs my paper saying I was there, and that's that. I started reading some Tom Wolfe over the weekend (a lot of stuff attacking genetic pre-disposition), and I was reminded that I am responsible for my actions, I can change, and I have no excuse. Lincoln said something like "Mans purpose is to improve himself", or something like that. Much of you data about "spontaneous remission" really made me feel empowered. Thanks again, Thomas C.
Hi Thomas,
Thanks for the letter. I hope you are doing well.
Yes, you've got it. That A.A. "powerless" doctine
has destroyed more people... I can't even estimate how many lives have been
messed up by that abdication of personal responsibility, and that
declaration of weakness. People who really believe that they are powerless
over alcohol tend to fail when they try to quit drinking. It's a self-fulfilling
prophesy.
"Oh heck, A.A. says that I'm powerless over alcohol and I can't help it.
Pass that bottle over here, buddy."
Have a good day.
== Orange
The people who are lounging up on the roof enjoy feeding the resident bluejay.
Here he is helping himself to peanuts.
 [The story of the goslings continues here.]
Dear "A. Orange" Who are you? Regards, — Major Johnson
Hello Major,
Whenever someone asks a wide-open sweeping question like that, I am always tempted
to answer with something like, "The Life Force", "the Universe",
or "an immortal awareness temporarily inhabiting this limited physical body".
But I won't. I'll answer it straight.
My birth name is "Terrance Hodgins", for what that is worth.
It's a meaningless label, really. And I live in Portland, Oregon.
Here are some more informative items:
There are some recent pictures of me and my little friends
here
and
here
and
here.
Have a good day.
== Orange
Nice to see your site is still there. I read a few of the anti-orange posts. If they don't like it and insist on posting their opinion, then why don't they start their own site to counter yours?
Hi John,
Sometimes they do, like
"Agent
Green". But most of the time they just complain.
Now on to another subject. I have noticed a trend in the last few years among some of the AAers that I work with. They are a lot more secretitve about where the meetings are and they tend to hide the fact that they are in AA. These are people that used to wear the latest conference t-shirts, had the coffee cups with the triangle logo, and the bumper stickers (which they have taken off their cars). What happened, is that some of the mandatory treatment centers and/or alcohol/drug counseling that is mandated by court are not requiring AA attendance. There are a few alternative programs that have been offered in the last few years. Evidently some big disagreement happened between AA/NA and treatment centers arose in the SW Missouri and NW Arkansas areas and some people involved in the treatment industry really got pissed. What I have pieced together was that some of the groups were trying to say that if someone was on Rx drugs and/or went to therapy or counseling, that they were not working the program or that they were not clean and sober. Those old timers need to read their own book instead of quoting it! There was some things that I did agree with in the book, like not evading your creditors and seeking outside help for the mental and emotional problems that come up after quiting drugs and alcohol. Any way, thanks for keeping this site going.
Thanks for the thanks. Now that story is interesting. I'd definitely like to
hear the gory details of an internal dispute in the treatment industry.
And it's way past time for the treatment industry to notice that A.A. is really
hurting a lot of people by telling them not to take their medications.
Even causing deaths.
The A.A. web site actually acknowledges that
A.A. members have pushed newcomers into suicide by telling them not to take
their medications.
Their conference-approved pamphlet, "The AA Member — Medications & Other
Drugs", on page 13 states
AA members and many of their physicians have described
situations in which depressed patients have been told by AAs to throw away the
pills, only to have the depression return with all of its difficulties, sometimes
resulting in suicide.
We have heard, too, from schizophrenics, manic
depressives, epileptics, and others requiring
medication that well-meaning A.A. friends often
discourage them from taking prescribed medication.
Unfortunately, by following a layman's
advice, the sufferers find that their conditions
can return with all their previous intensity. On
top of that, they feel guilty because they are
convinced that "A.A. is against pills."
So I wonder what was going on in Missouri and Arkansas.
I'd also like to see the A.A. headquarters be a little more specific about how
many deaths "sometimes" means when they say,
"sometimes resulting in suicide."
And of course the above wishy-washing back-and-forth apologetic quote begs the question,
So who decides? Who has the knowledge and the power?
Have a good day.
== Orange
Sir: I do not wish to get into a debate, however, you are mistaken in thinking that the 12 Steps of Alcoholics Anonymous are about quitting drinking. They are about learning to live life. Myself as a recovered alcoholic quit drinking the day I came into AA and said I need help. Alcoholics Anonymous also is not a religious program. It is spiritual. And please read this:
ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS is a fellowship of men and women who share their experience, strength and hope with each other that they may solve their common problem and help others to recover from alcoholism. The only requirement for membership is a desire to stop drinking. There are no dues or fees for A.A. Membership; we are self-supporting through our own contributions. A.A. Is not allied with any sect, denomination, politics, organization or institution; does not wish to engage in any controversy; neither endorses nor opposes any causes. Our primary purpose is to stay sober and help other alcoholics to achieve sobriety. We are not a sect, or a weird religion, or even a cult as you have said. We are a fellowship. And I know this much from personal experience: "It works " Each member is allowed to develop their own concept of God or a Higher Power If it were a religious program, it would have faltered and failed very early in its birth. It is my personal opinion that your paper on Alcoholics Anonymous is very one-sided, and is filled with pre-conceived and completely inaccurate notions. Some of your "facts" as alluded to in your paper are, in my opinion, completely false. You seem to want to bend the facts to meet your distorted views. Other statements made by you are simply a result of ignorance. Ignorance is not bad, however. One can always be educated on the proper facts. Alcoholics Anonymous has saved many people that modern medicine has labeled hopeless and without recourse. I know this for I am one of those people and I have been witness with my own eyes to the recovery of countless others. Your ill-thought words have the potential to be very damaging. NOT to the program of Alcoholics Anonymous, but to an individual who may be searching for the solution to his or her problems. If you have gathered your "facts" from other web sites and people who are at odds with Alcoholics Anonymous, I invite you to attend any open AA meeting near your home so that you may learn more about our fellowship. There are many people in AA who are very informed on the workings and history of AA. You may find that AA is nothing like how you described it in your paper. I also urge you to download and just listen to any Joe and Charlie sessions on the AA program. They are free at www.silkworth.net. We invite any and all who may be seeking help or are merely curious. If, on the other hand, you have had intimate contact with the program of AA recently or previously in your life, and you are still unable to grasp the spiritual concept as outlined in the Big Book of AA and the 12 Steps, I invite you back into the Fellowship of Alcoholics Anonymous with open arms. We will be here when you are ready. Sincerely, Brian D. H.
Hello Brian,
Thank you for the letter.
When you declare,
"...you are mistaken in thinking
that the 12 Steps of Alcoholics Anonymous are about quitting drinking",
you are supporting what I have been saying all along — that
the A.A. 12-Step program is not
a quit-drinking program — it is cult religion.
The 12 Steps don't even say that you should quit drinking.
They are all about you being insane and sinful and needing to surrender to
some "Higher Power as you understand Him".
The 12 Steps are nothing more than
Bill Wilson's repackaging of Dr. Frank
Buchman's cult religion recruiting and indoctrination practices.
So yes, the 12 Steps are not about quitting drinking. They have nothing whatsoever
to do with sobriety or quitting drinking.
But they have everything to do with cult religion.
Then the rest of your letter makes a good case for A.A. being a cult religion.
Even your declarations that A.A. is not a cult religion are good evidence of that.
And then of course you just had to insert the standard A.A. cult attack on critics:
I can't count how many times I've heard the A.A. true believers parrot that accusation,
as if telling the truth about alcoholism and Alcoholics Anonymous
would really keep alcoholics from quitting drinking.
But look here for some more xerox copies of that attack:
UPDATE: 2014.07.18: There is now a whole file of such accusations:
And then you imply that I know nothing about Alcoholics Anonymous.
That's another standard A.A. attack. Ignore the facts and what the guy
actually says, and just claim
that the speaker doesn't know what he is talking about.
Wrong. Try reading
the introduction to the web site, just for starters.
Then you spout the usual unsupported and unverified grandiose claims of success:
"Alcoholics Anonymous has saved many people that modern
medicine has labeled hopeless and without recourse."
So where are the official doctors' reports of this wonderful healing that is better than
"modern medicine"?
Please be specific. I'll go to the local medical university library and look them up.
Speaking of which, while you are bragging about A.A.,
what is the actual Alcoholics Anonymous success rate?
(Hint: See the answers here.)
And how does that success rate compare to the success rate that comes from
sending 1000 alcoholics to the
local Tiddly-Winks Society, or the Ladies' Home Garden Club, or the
Baskin-Robbins ice cream parlor?
Please answer those questions. They are very important questions, and reveal the
whole truth about "Twelve-Step Recovery".
Oh, by the way, the fact that you quit drinking the day that you walked into
A.A. is proof that you didn't need either A.A. or the 12-Step program to quit
drinking.
You had not done the program, you had not worked the Steps, you had not gone
to a lot of meetings. You had not done anything but decide to quit drinking
— which you then promptly did, way before "working a strong program".
So A.A. deserves none of the credit for you quitting drinking
hours before you walked into your first A.A. meeting.
You decided to quit killing yourself with alcohol, so you did.
Congratulations on your sobriety.
It's funny that you criticize my choice of references and citations, and then you
recommend Joe and Charlie to me. Joe and Charlie are not
council-approved literature either.
They are just some guys who made up their own dogmatic interpretation
of the 12-Step program and Buchmanite theology.
They don't speak for A.A., do they? Are they official A.A. spokesmen?
More official than Hazelden or Al-Anon?
And then, lastly, you generously invite me back to the cult:
"...I invite you back into the
Fellowship of Alcoholics Anonymous with open arms."
No thanks. That is just such a standard ploy. Again, I can't count how many
times the A.A. true believers have invited me back, and told me that they are
saving a seat for me (for when I relapse)...
It seems to really bother some of them that I have
8 years of sobriety now, without any Alcoholics Anonymous, or any 12 Steps,
or any sponsor, or any cult religion, or any going to meetings...
Oh well, have a good day. Now I'm going to go meet with the geese and the sunshine
down at the river, because it's a beautiful day, and too nice to stay inside
in front of a computer.
== Orange
Hi Terry, Someone on X-Steppers pointed out that you had responded to a letter with 2004 AA salaries, here are some later returns:
Ray S.
Hi Ray,
Ah, good, thanks for the links. More grist for the mill.
And that lets me cross-check some things.
Somebody wrote to me and complained that the copies of
Form 990 for A.A. (the "GSO")
that were on the Internet have gotten buried or erased, so
I dug through my computer and finally found the copies that I had saved.
So here are local copies of what used to be easy to find:
Have a good day.
== Orange
Last updated 18 July 2014. |
