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Date: Mon, July 2, 2012 5:46 pm (answered 5 July 2012) Good evening, I've read a number of the emails posted on Letters 131 and thought I'd toss my two cents worth in. I am a recovered alcoholic/addict. I went to drug rehab on November 1, 1990 and have not used since then. No relapses and still working the program. I keep reading about that the 12-step program not working and all I can say is "Duh!" It only works if you wor it. I know that sounds cliche but it's true. Just like anything else in life, you get out of it, what you put into it. Sure there are parts to it that you may disagree with. But didn't your way of thinking get you to where you even contemplated the 12-step programs? Could it possibly be that just maybe you're wrong? Don't believe in God? Who cares? It is the "Higher Power" concept that is the thing. Sure, many of us eventually become Christians of some sort but in the beginning, most of us weren't. Did the Judge send you to AA? Then he's your higher power. Get it? Someone or something that is greater or has power over you... When I was new in the program, I had a friend who claimed to be an atheist. He and some of his friends started their own meeting and interestingly, the started with the serenity prayer just like all the others... About those who claim AA has a success rate, they are fools. Success in AA is measured by the individual only. I say I am "recovered" instead of recovering because I have reached that point where I know that even during my worst times (like when I got in a wreck and had my leg amputated) I still put my sobriety first because I knew I was no good to anyone f---d up on dope or booze. I measure that as success, others do not. I have heard the argument that AA and other 12-step programs are just brain washing. Well, my brain needed washing. I have seen the TV commercials that say they can heal addicts of addiction. Good for them. If that's what a person believes they need, more power to them (if they're okay with spending thousands of dollars). I would be interested in further conversation if you so desire. I like good friendly debate. Be well.
From the desk of:
Date: Mon, July 2, 2012 6:08 pm (answered 5 July 2012) It's my understanding that the therapeutic community model is a treatment modality where a "safe place" is set up for clients to go and dig into whatever issue they are experiencing. It is more than just a form of group therapy in that group therapy sessions are short and between sessions, you are left to your own devices. In a previous email, I spoke of my own experience with the drug and alcohol in-patient treatment program. I believe that had I not gone to a treatment facility where I could get away from the drugs and booze I was fighting to get away from, I surely would not have been able to fully grasp the 12-step program that many facilities adhere to. The facility I went to did not just use the AA model. They also used a program called the White Bison Program which was wonderful for learning to not only set but achieve goals. They also used Relaxation Therapy and even used something we called "Forced Fun" (mainly because we were made to play games and such which the average drug addict or alcoholic just didn't do). One of the most influential parts of the program where I was at was a thing they called the "Joey Patrol". One of the more senior counselors brought his little grandson, Joey, to work with him and we had to take turns watching out for the kid. The thought behind it? Get us out of our own heads and care for someone besides ourselves... Unlike a hospital "spin-dry" or AA's fake it until you make it style of recovery program, Therapeutic Communities are the way to go. But that's just my opinion...
From the desk of:
Hello Duane,
Thanks for the letter. Alas, you suffer from a lot of misconceptions.
That slogan, "It works if you work it" is also an example of
Lying With Qualifiers.
Bill Wilson did that a lot.
That con is even described in The Cult Test:
67. Don't Trust Your Own Mind.
The fact that someone got into trouble with alcohol or drugs does not mean that they should stop thinking
for themselves and just trust a grinning cult recruiter.
When they say, "Your best thinking got you here" (yes, another slogan), that is true. My best thinking
decided that I needed to quit drinking and save my life. So my thinking turned out to be pretty good, didn't it?
Lastly, the fact that I got into trouble with alcohol does not change the facts about
A.A. being a cult that fails to help alcoholics.
The "Higher Power" concept is insane. Will worshipping Santa Claus save you?
How about the Easter Bunny? How about worshipping
the Force of Gravity? No, what that really means is that a tyrannical Sky God will deliver miracles on demand
and save you if you confess and grovel enough.
When you say that most of you eventually became "Christians", you are
admitting that A.A. is a religious conversion program.
And A.A. is not Christian, or compatible with Christianity, or anything like Christianity. A.A. is grossly
heretical and in conflict with Christian teachings in many ways, like expecting miracles on demand, and
dabbling in the occult, and worshipping idols. A.A. is pretend Christianity, not real Christianity.
Just because somebody jabbers the word "Jesus" a few times does not make him a Christian.
In fact, A.A. is closer to Satan-worship than Christianity. A.A. resembles selling your soul to the
Devil in trade for sobriety.
Read the file,
The Heresy of the Twelve Steps.
Oh, by the way, no judge sent me to A.A. I was never court-mandated. Instead, I had a
cocaine-snorting, child-raping, Internet
child pornographer 12-Step counselor send me to A.A. meetings.
That's really some great "higher power", isn't it?
So what? What does that prove? That your atheist friends can be just as illogical and superstitious as your
believer friends?
Wrong, totally wrong. Bill
Wilson himself tried to claim a great A.A. success rate in the Big Book by
Lying With Qualifiers:
Measuring the A.A. success rate is very simple: You count heads.
Count how many newcomers start, and then count how many
people get the one-year sobriety medallion, or 5 years or 10 years or 20 years.
A.A. is a huge failure.
Here are some mathematical studies of the A.A. failure rate:
Congratulations. I am also recovered because I chose to just not drink any more alcohol, and have not for 11 3/4 years
now.
That line is a classic. That is proof positive that A.A. is a cult.
You can find that line in
my list of A.A. slogans.
And I have discussed that line in the Cult Test:
Do you really believe that any criminal should be allowed to run any kind of con that he wishes,
and cheat people out of money however he wishes, and even advertise it on TV?
The 12-Step rehabs are criminal outfits that sell a cult religion for a lot of money.
They are not much different from the Scientology "Narconon" scam that
claims to cure drug addicts and alcoholics with the inspired teachings of
the crazy paranoid schizophrenic Lafayette Ronald Hubbard.
Now, on to the second letter:
A "model" is just a model. It's just an idea or a design. The question
is, does it work? All of the evidence says that drug and alcohol rehab is a massive
failure with a sky-high failure rate. Tweaking the recipe a little has not fixed
that problem.
That is a belief, not a fact.
And the phrase "fully grasp the 12-step program" is a euphemism, just another grandiose
slogan. What does that really mean, in practical terms?
Now that sounds interesting. But what is the actual success rate of that program? And you have to count everybody,
including the drop-outs, and the failures, and those who "didn't work the program right", and those
who "chose to use".
Furthermore, even the incoming patients were a select group —
people with a lot of money. How does that program work on down-and-out people without funds?
Again, what is the success rate? One success story does not prove that a cure works.
Have a good day now.
== Orange
Date: Thu, July 5, 2012 9:02 pm (answered 8 July 2012)
Hi Orange! How's everything? I was reading your site The bird with yellow and black is a YELLOW HEADED BLACKBIRD. Peace!
Date: Thu, July 5, 2012 5:25 pm (answered 8 July 2012)
It's a yellow-headed blackbird: I managed to find it using one of the wizards on that site.
Hello Donita and Meatbag,
Aha! Thanks to both of you.
A Yellow-headed Blackbird. Well, that is logical and consistent naming, even if it isn't very creative.
So we have Red-wing Blackbirds here, and Yellow-headed Blackbirds. And they are stunning little creatures.
And very photogenic.
But very hard to photograph because they tend to flee when you point a camera at them.
But I'll get some good in-focus photographs of them eventually. The Red-Wing Blackbirds have learned my routine,
and they actually fly to me when they see me arrive.
Then they sit in a tree and squawk when I start putting out the oats,
and then swoop down and start feasting as soon as I move away.
Now I just need to get them tame enough to allow me to stay rather close and photograph them as they eat.
Have a good day now.
== Orange
Date: Sat, July 7, 2012 3:39 pm (answered 10 July 2012) Hiya Terrance, I love your bird pictures. A quick Google suggests that the un-identified bird is a Yellow-headed Blackbird. we don't get any in the UK (maybe they/we are not rigorously working their program!). Keep up the good work! Kind regards, Philip P.
Hi Phil,
Thanks for the tip and the laugh and the compliments.
You have a good day too.
== Orange
Date: Thu, July 5, 2012 8:40 am (answered 6 July 2012) Hello,
My name is Janet and I'm a teacher at a summer program. One of my students,
Christine, has been researching about drug/alcohol awareness and prevention, mental
health topics, and related issues. She came across your page She also began finding more information about dual diagnosis, which she feels is very important for people to learn about. So, she found this very informative, well-organized article on dual diagnosis: http://www.lakeviewhealth.com/treating-drug-addiction-and-mental-health-disorders.php She would like to spread awareness about it and contribute by suggesting this article to you to add to your page as an additional resource. She feels it would be helpful and of interest to your visitors. Also, it would be very motivating for her to see her suggestion on your page! Please let us know if you do decide to add it because Christine would like to show her peers and family : ) Thank you! Kindest Regards, Janet R.
Hello Janet,
Thanks for the tip, and thanks for teaching your students some sane approaches to mental illness and addictions.
Lord knows we need more of that.
It would be wonderful if future generations did better with those problems than past generations did.
I've seen with my own eyes how friends with bipolar disorder drink too much as they vainly try self-medicating
with drugs and alcohol to fix what is wrong.
I'll gladly give a plug to that article. So you have a couple of links. First, this letter is at the
link above, at the start of the letter. And then the listing in the links page is here:
http://orange-papers.info/orange-links.html#Christine
By the way, another resource that Christine may find interesting is Addict-L, a mailing list forum
that is served out by a list server at Kent State University.
I mention it because that is where I first learned that there are some doctors who regard all
cases of alcohol abuse and drug addiction to be dual-diagnosis cases.
The logic is simple: There must be some underlying reason for people to be drinking
and doping themselves to death. Normal healthy people don't do that.
People who are killing themselves really do need to get their heads examined.
I don't post there, I just sit back and listen and learn. That list is frequented
by some heavy-weights, researchers and doctors and Ph.D.s who are very knowledgeable in their fields. And
Maia Szalavitz
posts there too.
You will get a lot of email from that list. I recommend setting up a separate email account just to
get Addict-L. If Christine's ISP doesn't allow multiple email accounts, then Christine could set up
another email account on Google gmail or Yahoo mail or Inbox.com, and use that to receive the list's emails.
That way her regular email account won't get flooded with Addict-L messages.
To subscribe, you send a very simple email to listserv@listserv.kent.edu — from your new email account
that will receive the list messages.
For more help, see:
http://www.kent.edu/slis/students/slis-listserv.cfm
Oh, and of course Christine is welcome in the Orange Papers forum, too.
Have a good day now.
== Orange
Date: Thu, July 5, 2012 11:00 am What if your site had a "sloganalysis" section? It should be as quick and easy as hearing the slogans themselves. For example, for "your own best thinking got you here" there could be a list of responses such as "didn't you just tell me my hands would stop shaking in a few days but my brain won't be right for about 18 months?" Each sales pitch slogan would simply be listed with several good responses.
Hi Adam,
What a neat idea. That could be a lot of fun.
That really sounds like a good subject for the forum. There, people could post
dozens or hundreds of their own ideas, slogans and snappy come-backs.
I love snappy come-backs to A.A. slogans, like:
Yes, I had a moment of clarity and decided to quit drinking and save my own life. So it really was
my best thinking that got me here, wasn't it?
The problem with KISS is that it often leads to LOVE: Leave Out Virtually Everything.
If everybody is just faking it until they make it, then all you have is a room full of fakes.
"AA is 'the last house on the block' for a reason:
it's full of arsonists who've been burning down
the other houses!" — Madame Senga
What if I don't want any of it?
Yes, this could be fun.
The new forum thread is here:
Have a good day now.
== Orange
Date: Wed, July 4, 2012 10:58 am (answered 8 July 2012) orange, you really do your homework, you know more about photography then me. Keep up the good work, I know your into animals but I would be interested to see how you handle portraits of people, i'm not talking smily face portraits i'm talking about soulful truthful portraits.
Hi again, Jon,
No, I doubt that I know more about photography than you. I got the feeling that you've been in it
for many years, and are coming from a film background.
I've only been into photography for about five years. I just got into it because I wanted to share pictures of
those cute little goslings, and one thing led to another.
I have been intensively studying the old lenses from the sixties through nineties because that is where the
bargains are. When it comes to a big new $2500 Canon or Nikon auto-focus telephoto lens,
there isn't much to study. Sure, it's a great
lens, but I don't have the $2500 handy, so that's out of the question, so there isn't much to study.
Portraits are a subject that I haven't gotten into yet, other than portraits of geese. I'd also like to
see how I would handle that.
Have a good day now.
== Orange
Date: Wed, July 4, 2012 10:21 pm (answered 8 July 2012) Dear A. Orange, I have been spending some time reviewing some of your website's information. I myself, am an alcoholic and drug addict. But equally so, I'm a man who always seeks the truth, regardless of how inconvenient it may be. I appreciated the revelations on Bill W. Admittedly, they weren't easy to swallow at first. I'm quite glad you referenced your work to allow people to verify your findings. I have been quite surprised and shocked upon this recent research. However, I do find your site a bit over board on the character assassination and program bashing. Bill was no saint, he did not walk the walk, and it appears as though the program he helped developed manifested as a mere fluke of luck. But the information does seem to be overly repetitive just to say just that much. It should not be excused and I think more of it should be brought to light in the program,"...vigorous honesty". I just don't understand the intent of all this. I get it, Bill bad! A.A. is not your cup of tea. But I think you got the whole message WAYYYY WRONG! And in the end, all you've done is misdirect the people in need of help. You're no better than ol' Bill preying on his helpless vixens. You too are preying on the weak. In your introduction you state:
"I started out with a very positive view of Alcoholics Anonymous. Like most people, I had only heard good things about A.A., and thought that it was just a wonderful self-help group where alcoholics got together to give each other moral support and advice in quitting drinking." Don't know what meetings you went to brother, but that is all I've seen and got out of it in my years of attendance. Are there fanatics? Yes! Big Book thumpers? Yes! Can you find such characters in almost all groups banded for a cause? Yes! Is that what is pushed through as an intent of the whole A.A. program? Hell no! I have serious doubts that the program is run differently in your neck of the woods. How you got such a skewed and corrupted view — I just don't know. And btw, hospitals and institutions tend to be run badly with little organization. I don't think that's a big secret nor should it come as a surprise. There being your first bad introduction into all of this. It almost seems as though that first bad taste was the only one you ever took. I know that you claim different but it sure doesn't show. To bring this short ramble to a close, I just want to add the following words. You are right, the A.A. program does not work. As a matter of fact, no self-help program will work unless you do your own work on it. Key words being "self-help". People have spent years in jail and come out worst than before, while yet others come out truly rehabilitated. The difference? Some worked for change others just did time. Same can be applied here. But my true chagrin a midst all the rambling is how I never saw the solution, just bash-bash-bash. What's an answer? DON'T JUST SAY SOMETHING DOESN'T WORK AND NOT OFFER ALTERNATIVES. Because I'll tell you this, if not for this non-working program, I'd still be drunk and drugging. I too had years of non-use through mere "self will", they were always temporary and when I'd go back it was just as bad if not worst than before. I could not keep sobriety without help as is the testimony of almost all who show up at the door step of these rooms. I do believe it's why we show up to begin with, it sure as hell isn't for that god awful coffee. What's the answer to staying sober — WITHOUT HELP? I'm open to ideas but please, make the alternatives stand out. If you have provided such answers among all this rambling, it's buried under an Everest of hatred you spew. As far as I can see, you just merely like to write to seem as though you have alternative views and revelating thoughts. Did you know that is a form of narcissism? Your narcissistic finger pointing should be pointing at the mirror. I mean really. Hope you're of character to be able to answer some of these concerns. Look forward to hearing from you. Sincerely, Agent O.
Hello Paul,
Thanks for the letter.
Unfortunately, you are still ignoring the facts:
Well, what do you call a totally corrupt fake holy man who knowingly foisted an old
cult religion on sick people as a quack cure for a deadly problem, and lied to them about how well it works?
I call that monstrous. I have trouble finding words negative enough to describe such a heartless crime.
You are ignoring the fact that A.A. does not work, and in fact is very harmful.
Alcoholics Anonymous
increases the rates of binge drinking
and
rearrests,
and
increases the cost of hospitalization,
and
raises the death rate in alcoholics.
Steering people away from such harmful quack medicine is not "preying on the weak." It's just the opposite.
It's doing them a favor.
Accusing me of harming alcoholics who are seeking sobriety by telling the truth about Alcoholics Anonymous
is a common A.A. tactic. Here is
the list of previous accusations.
Congratulations. You made the list.
If you have nothing but pleasant meetings in your neighborhood, then wonderful. But that does not
change the fact that A.A. is pushing a quack cure that doesn't work, and is in fact harmful.
I don't know where you get that, but it's incredible that you try to blame A.A.'s ineffectiveness on hospitals
and institutions. Are you trying to claim that hospitals and institutions are bad because they send people
to A.A. meetings?
Can you show me some documentation to support your claim that hospitals are badly run?
So that rules out A.A., because A.A. is not a "self-help" group, it's an "elf-help group".
You pray for "Higher Power" to grant your wishes and save you:
So, since we all have to do the work ourselves, why are you promoting a cult religion that says otherwise?
No wonder A.A. fails to help alcoholics.
Well, I've talked about the alternatives and better approaches to sobriety and clean and sober living
so many times that I can't even count them. Once again:
You are assuming things. You are assuming that the A.A. program somehow worked and did good things, which
it doesn't.
Can you tell me how practicing Dr. Frank Buchman's cult religion makes people quit drinking and drugging?
I suggest that you quit and stayed quit because you finally learned how to do it right:
Likewise,
That works every time, flawlessly.
And I add on one more rule:
Follow those three simple rules, and you don't need any Steps, or any meetings, or any Big Book,
or any of that. And it's just amazing how much your health improves, and how much better your life
gets to be, when you follow those three simple rules.
I never said that people had to do it without help. I did say that
most of the successful people did it alone,
without any "support group" or "treatment", but I never said that people had to do it that way.
Go to SMART or SOS or Lifering if you want some company.
You might even learn something useful there.
Lastly, all of that talk about "HELP" is just the standard A.A. rap
which really means that A.A. members shove their totally untrue Buchmanite dogma
on the newcomers, and call it "helping them".
(The Oxford Group also called their recruiting scams
"helping others".)
That is no more "helping alcoholics" than is Scientology pushing the ravings of the
paranoid schizophrenic Lafayette Ronald Hubbard
on sick addicts and calling it "helping" them to get "clear".
Have a good day now.
== Orange
Date: Thu, July 5, 2012 9:33 pm (answered 9 July 2012) Hi Orange, Reading this excellent letter from Chuck B. in Wichita KS, I was reminded of the alleged Pink Cloud affect, a natural physical experience I had felt this last (and final) time I quit drinking, in May of 2011. Like him, this quit was very simple: I got tired of feeling bad, so I stopped drinking. The following month, I welcomed more physical exercise (walking, bicycling), and established better connections with family and friends. None of this was a goal, or anything. All this activity came about from a natural energetic impulse that came about when I stopped abusing my body with alcohol. The following two reactions from my past come to mind, as a former repeat newcomer to Alcoholics Anonymous, as related to the Pink Cloud:
Whether the responses are intended as forms of cutting humility or well-intended spacy talk, they are both A.A. responses which take a natural physical phenomenon, and make it all about A.A. Pretty self-centered, if you ask me. Maybe the organization should follow its own third step. Thank you for your ongoing work here, Orange. Your site was key in helping me to leave the program over five years ago.
Best regards, * Note: if you post my letter, please edit my real name from the text. Thank you!
Hello BSmechanic,
Thanks for the letter, and thanks for the thanks. You are welcome.
I'm glad to hear you are doing well, and free (in both senses: free of alcohol, and
free of A.A.).
I quite agree about the Pink Cloud. Obviously, the "Pink Cloud Effect" is due to a physical cause,
not a "spiritual" cause, and certainly not Alcoholics Anonymous activities.
Our bodies are just overjoyed at not being poisoned any more. And we often start eating better when
we quit drinking, too, because we don't have to choose between spending money on alcohol or food.
And we don't suppress our hunger with alcohol and cigarettes, either. We don't get drunk and forget
to eat. So our bodies react with joy at the improved situation.
Oh, and when I quit all alcohol, tobacco, and other drugs at the same time, it was like a triple whammy.
It really was like Bill Wilson's phrase about riding a rocket into the fourth dimension.
Even six months later I was still high as a kite. I quit alcohol and drugs in October and tobacco
three weeks later in November, and the following July I walked 14 miles up and down
the river one glorious sunshiny day because I was so energized and wired up with the joy of being alive.
Ah, the Pink Cloud Effect. Now I miss it. That was fun.
Have a good day now.
== Orange
Date: Fri, July 6, 2012 9:38 am (answered 9 July 2012) Hi Orange I have gone off AA meetings. Can't stand to sit in meetings and know what the odds are. I do not have the internet at home so i downloaded your site onto a legacy PC via memory stick. Going through the letters I found instructions on how to do Cost Benefit Analysis. Thank you. I have now found SMART online and their toolbox is very handy. There are no meetings in our area. But I have been hanging around in their chatroom. I will also do meetings online. I love the gosling stories and pictures and I enjoyed your email exchange with Pitch Black. You do not strike me as bitter and angry at all. Thanks for your site and help and support. william
Hi William,
Thanks for the letter, and thanks for the thanks, and I'm glad to hear that you have found something that you like.
Yes, SMART is cool, isn't it? When I first stumbled across it, it was like a breath of fresh
air after all of the crazy jabber in A.A. meetings. Best of all, I could tell the truth, and say what
I really thought, without having to worry about somebody jumping down my throat for speaking blasphemy.
By the way, speaking of odds, I think the odds for you will be 100%, no matter where you are.
So have a good day now, and a good life.
== Orange
Last updated 25 April 2014. |
