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The following column that appeared in the New York Daily News today DEFAMED our organization and all who offer alternatives and choice to people with addictions. The accusations are outrageous and false. We are not "another fantastic ride in the Disneyland of Recovery. And dangerous, too." Qualifying it with I think does not negate the harm or admit the ignorance of the opinion. If we said anything like this about AA, we'd be accused of "bashing."
They also stigmatize people with addictions saying that:
"when any addict is
newly recovering, they are cranky, contentious and above all self-centered."
I ask that we unite and [rationally] demand a retraction, some setting the record straight, and an apology for this libel. If we don't stand up to this sort of nonsense, you can pretty well assume that there will be plenty more. As we try to keep our most militant volunteers from angry tirades and bashing, the AA World Service should put a hand on their zealots and, as their tradition makes so clear, they should not be entering into controversies. That's what they say. That is their excuse for not to telling people, who are not comfortable or not improving with their program, about alternatives. So why can they bash SMART Recovery® or any other organization with impunity? Please see the original article copied below. I look forward to your sharing this with others and taking action as you see fit.
Hello Henry,
Thanks for the letter. I'm sorry that I am so slow in responding — I was unavoidably delayed
by looking for a new place to live.
You are right, that is disgusting. So who is this "Dr. Dave" who promotes quack medicine and
cult religion? Is he truly that ignorant of the facts, or is he actually a secret member of the cult
who is promoting his own religion? (Just like Tom Cruise declaring that Scientology knows more about
the human mind than all of the psychiatrists in the world.)
Inquiring minds want to know.
The way that he jabbers the dogma, he sounds like a hidden member of A.A.:
Dr. Dave is also very hazy on the actual history of Alcoholics Anonymous.
He basically does not know what he is talking about. It was not Clarence Snyder
"who led the revolt against religious ties, wanted that phrase put in",
it was Jim Burwell, the resident atheist.
Look here for the story.
Clarence Snyder led the revolt against Bill Wilson's financial dishonesty.
Read:
Cleveland, 1944: Clarence Snyder's objections.
Clarence Snyder had no problem with religious beliefs — he was an enthusiastic member of the
Akron Oxford Group cult religion before taking the alcoholics and setting up a
separate religious organization that he called "Alcoholics Anonymous".
Look here for the story.
And yes, Clarence Snyder, in Cleveland, not anybody in New York,
came up with the name "Alcoholics Anonymous".
And again, Dr. Dave is totally wrong about this history, too:
The Lutherans didn't want to claim Frank Buchman, either. When Buchman died,
the President of
the United Lutheran Church in America, Dr. Franklin Clark Fry,
criticized Buchman's "movement" as "not Christ-centered" and said
of Buchman that his connection with the United Lutheran Church had
been "only minimal".
Basically,
Frank Buchman made up
his own occult, fascistic, heretical theology. It was neither Episcopalian nor Lutheran.
And that is "the real fundamentals of A.A."
The bias in the article is incredible:
But Bill and Dave said just the opposite:
"They [SMART] market to resentment.".
Yes, I do believe that "Dr. Dave" is a well-indoctrinated member of the Alcoholics Anonymous
cult religion. And I think "Bill" is too.
They should get together with Tom Cruise, and the whole bunch of them can
jump up and down on the couch while declaring that cults know much more than real doctors.
I will also write to the New York Daily News and complain, for what it's worth.
But more to the point, I'll post this story on my web site, and let the world see what the
New York Daily News has sunk to.
But I guess their best days are behind them, and they are being killed by the decline
of paper media. The Internet is doing them in.
So now, I guess that the New York Daily News must be hiring cheap third-rate staff who don't know
the difference between news and celebrity gossip. It shows.
Just look at the list of "Related News" before the start of the story:
Oh well, have a good day now. And thank you for your work.
== Orange
Date: Wed, May 26, 2010 9:12 pm (answered 31 May 2010) Thank you, Orange. I read your entire piece and I'm as ever impressed with our knowledge of AA. Apparently Dr. Dave is a licensed psychologist in California, but so is that guy from the Family Research Council who spanks boys straight and was caught on video carrying the bags for his "rentboy.com" companion who he claimed was hired to carry his bags. And Dave makes no bones about his total amore for AA. They both are clearly zealots, but as I say, the AA World Service is as full of it as they are. This is a religious group taking advantage of people when they are at the worst point in their lives, to spread their nonsense and gain opportunities to laude their so-called spirituality hypocritically over others. Not much humility in this church.
Doc Henry S.
Hello again, Henry,
Thanks for the info. This is all news to me. I had never heard of the New York Daily News
or Dr. Dave before. So, Dave and Bill are devoted A.A. proselytizers, are they?
It sure shows.
And, not to be too catty, I think we can see why they don't have a very large readership.
And the rent-boy thing, that is just something else, isn't it? I mean, it wouldn't be so
bad if those people who claim to have a hotline to God and all of the holy answers
actually lived what they profess, but they are hypocritical to an unbelievable degree.
It makes me wonder if their "belief in God" is all just an act.
Oh well, have a good day anyway.
== Orange
"Greetings orange..
"Just to let you know SMART over here where i set it up has really taken off :) :) i live in a area called Bradford in west yorkshire have you heard of it ???? You really should think about getting OP into a book format get the truth out there for everybody to see....I tell people to read your site but not many people know of it.....You have a lot of support orange get the book out there lol :) Jamie"
Monday, 31 May 2010:
Thanks for setting up SMART there in England. That's great. I glad to hear that more
people are getting sane alternatives.
Yes, isn't it funny how we have to avoid "offending" the Steppers?
Yahoo Geocities erased the
entire Orange Papers web site
when some of the Steppers cried that I had "offended" them.
No warning, no chance to retrieve my email. Just password invalidated, account cancelled,
and everything was erased without warning, or notification, or explanation.
I guess they didn't care that I was offended by their censorship and betrayal of
American Freedom.
By the way, today is Memorial Day here is the USA. Today is the day we are supposed to
remember the war dead and what they died for. Well, I seem to remember that Freedom of Speech
was a big part of it.
(Please boycott Yahoo.)
And have a good day.
== Orange
http://alcoholism.about.com/library/blstory02.htm Check this out on About.com This lady got sober on her own — found AA — and then relapsed!
Hello Lee,
Thanks for the link. That's sad, but it doesn't surprise me.
Teaching people that they are powerless over alcohol is bound to produce bad
results. And the constant guilt-induction and self-criticism depresses some
people so much that they want to just get drunk and forget the whole thing.
Every so often,
somebody writes to me and asks
how I could possibly be correct when I say that A.A. may have a success
rate that is less than zero. That's how.
Oh well, have a good day anyway.
== Orange
Melanie asked me to pass this on. I think it's great, even if my change of address came too late for the hardcover 2nd edition. There are truly Many Paths to Recovery. With more and more options we could reduce the number of people suffering with harmful addictions, if only these people can find them. Please pardon me if this is a repeat or unwanted, but I felt it was important to support her work just as she, and many of you, have supported mine. Henry Advanced Psychotherapy & Recovery Options, LLC New Literature AA Not the Only Way, 2nd Edition Your One Stop Resource Guide to 12-Step Alternatives By Melanie Solomon Ocala, Florida — Those contemplating treatment options personally or for loved ones, or who make recommendations and referrals for others, will want to have a copy of the newly published, updated second edition of AA Not the Only Way — Your One Stop Resource Guide to 12-Step Alternatives. The $24.95 soft cover book and downloadable $19.95 ebook can be ordered from the AA Not The Only Way website www.aanottheonlyway.com, by emailing the author, aanottheonlyway@hotmail.com, or by calling 310-658-0990 and placing an order. Quantity discounts are available upon request. Books can also be ordered on www.amazon.com. The breakthrough guidebook that has been praised by experts such as Stanton Peele and Lloyd Vacovsky, executive director of The American Council on Alcoholism, was inspired by Solomon's own decade long nightmare and roller coaster ride through 12-step programs and facilities that simply didn't work for her and also didn't have or would not share information about alternative treatment. Solomon realized that she was not one of the only 5 percent of people AA and related treatments were helping, and she set out to research and compile the book. It includes a forward by Marc F. Kern, PhD and preface by Frederick Rotgers, PsyD, ABPP; descriptions of alternative treatments; how to choose a treatment program; a section on what works and what doesn't; the legal basis for expanding knowledge of alternatives; and a comprehensive directory of over 100 licensed professionals and treatment programs offering highly effective, scientifically proven, and individualized treatment alternatives. "Overall, this is a book whose existence needs to be shouted from the rooftop, evangelized on street corners, and should be REQUIRED READING in EVERY Alcohol and Drug Counselor certification program in the United States! A copy should be sent to every drug and alcohol treatment center in the U.S., and most importantly, this book should be ON THE DESK OF EVERY "coercing authority" that has the power to "force" people with addictive disorders, into treatment facilities." He went on to say, "This book is about the MULTITUDE of non-12-step resources available both on and off the internet. If you are in recovery, or know someone who is, or wants to be, this book is a MUST READ!" It is imperative that this information get out to the general population; almost everyone is affected by alcoholism and addiction in some way, either personally or through a loved one. And many are needlessly suffering due to lack of knowledge. "I wish I had the information contained in this book 12 years ago. It would have saved me a lot of intense grief. Now my hope is that others don't have to go through what I did." "One-size-fits-all treatment is not possible," Solomon says. "Treatments must be as diverse as the people seeking it." The National Institute on Drug Abuse seems to agree, stating "No single treatment program is right for everybody. Matching the treatment program to each individual's needs is critical to success." "It is finally time to stop living in the dark ages of recovery, educate people about all of their choices and alternatives that are out there. Maybe we will start making a dent in the alcohol and drug use problem that millions are facing each day instead of continuing to perpetuate it," says Solomon. Please visit http://www.aanottheonlyway.com for the most up-to-date information and resources, such as helpful books, articles and special reports, and sign up for your FREE discussion forum membership. (ISBN: 978-0-97624779-9-9). The book is available in softcover, or as a downloadable pdf file. Melanie Solomon is available for interview for her fascinating story of discovering effective recovery. Ms. Solomon is always available for questions and individual consultations. To contact the author, you can Click Here.
Before making any decisions about your treatment plan, be sure to get this
excellent FREE report on how to get your most effective treatment, available
at Alcoholic Help for Families. Contact: Melanie Solomon-Author of "AA Not the Only Way" http://www.aanottheonlyway.com aanottheonlyway@hotmail.com 310-658-0990
Cool. I'll pass that on.
Have a good day now.
== Orange
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uZ_6flmLysc&feature=related
Okay, Bill,
Thanks for the link.
Ah yes, now that I've had a chance to check it out, I see that it is
"Why AA doesn't work for over 97% of people who join".
I've watched her before on YouTube. She's good.
And she makes a lot of sense.
And have a good day now.
== Orange
[The story of Carmen continues here.]
laughs. It doesn't surprise that like most folks of what I will presume to be your nature do a wee bit of hiding........hence the O, right Orange? lol Oh I know....this is where you're going to write back and tell me about the assassins the GSO has hired to find you, right? Your site did get my interested attention to see what legitimate & straight comments you may have made.....but it took me less than 5-7 minutes of reading to realize you're probably nothing but a butthurt mal-content who has some obvious resentments towards the 12 step communities. And dear God...the amount of time you must have spent adding to orange over the years??? I will tell you up front....guess I'm one of those 1 in over a 1,000.....I'm sitting at a little over 25 years of sobriety. If you think I'm a lemming, I will pass on a little more information. AA has its problems....damn straight. Most of those problems come from individuals within, and some of the BS that gets propagated from person to person. But that it has survived for 75 years in the manner and with the structure it does, ought say something to anyone with half a brain. Then again, you don't really want people with brains to read what you post on the web, do you? The steps and the traditions themselves, in their pure undiluted without messing with from human form, are pure genius. But yeah....we do get this human factor though. You know about humans, right? I'm an historian by nature....I was introduced and became acquainted with people on the GSO board before I had 6 months sobriety, and was scouring the archives in NY shortly after being sober a year. Why? I wanted to know what made this place, and the two founders tic. Found a lot of stuff. Some stuff people didn't want to talk about, and some stuff people would get angry with me if I brought it up....some angry to the point of calling me a liar back in those days. IN those days I referred to Bill W. as a probable manic-depressive womanizer, former Wall St. scam artist who covertly killed himself with cigarettes. Anything sound familiar there buddy? lol If there was the sound of a whoosh over your head, go look in the mirror. BTW, this was in the mid-1980's....so if you think you've done the world a favor letting us all know this........ But you know what? I don't care. He has also been referred to as one of the greatest social architects of the 20th century.....which he probably was. Sadly....the recovery rate from alcohol and/or drugs stands in the 10%-15% range.....the last time I paid attention to any stats that I would trust.....surely not the stats you like to quote just to fit whatever butthurt agenda you have. Do you have any idea of how many people had a chance to recover/abstain prior to 1935? These are just a small handful of your claims that are total BS.
A fifty nine cent psychology book could make some reasonable assumptions about you. You surely went to AA or NA at some time in your life. Some individual or a handful of individuals violated you in some manner that you perceive. It might be legit, it might be that you're just full of it. If they did, my apologies. If it's only your perception, do an inventory. LOL So what was it. They laughed at you? Stole your girlfriend or wife? Stole the woman you WANTED to be your girlfriend or wife? Couldn't stay sober worth a rats ass no matter how many meetings you went to? Cmon Bucky, you can tell us. What is the exact nature and basis of your butthurt? Or maybe it's your insistance that AA is actually a religion. Did you have a hard time at church earlier in life? Some priest wanted to give you cookies and tootsie rolls? But in the long run, anyone who would spend the time you have to get those pages up on the web, look for flimsy "EVIDENCE" to support your notions, and spew the venom you do has some serious problems. Get some help...... Be sure to send me the link when you post this along with your other emails you get. :)
Hello RG,
Thanks for the letter and congratulations on your 25 years of sobriety.
You really drank the koolaid, didn't you? Your ability to ignore the
facts is impressive.
Well, starting at the top, I guess I'll hit the high points:
"But that it has survived for 75 years in the manner and with the
structure it does, ought say something to anyone with half a brain."
A.A. is not the only cult religion that is 75 years old. America is full of them.
And "the structure" is a problem, not an asset. The A.A. headquarters has refused
to do anything about the exploitative sub-cults like
Mike Quinones' Midtown Group
or
Clancy Imusland's Pacific Group.
Maybe it can't fix the problem. You know, "Every group is independent..."
The future of A.A. may be radical sub-cults taking over.
"The steps and the traditions themselves, in their pure undiluted
without messing with from human form, are pure genius."
Anybody who thinks that the Steps and the Traditions are "pure genius"
is deluded.
The 12 Steps
are just
Frank Buchman's cult recruiting and indoctrination procedures.
The so-called "Traditions"
are just some rather moronic new rules that Bill Wilson made up one day, but didn't bother to
actually follow himself,
like "no outside donations", except for the money that John D. Rockefeller Jr. gave
to Bill, and Bill put in his own pocket.
And "A.A., as such, ought never be organized", but Bill totally organized it, with
two corporations, and two headquarters, two sets of office staff, and a Board of
Trustees and a Board of Directors...
And then there are national, state, and regional conferences
and councils all over the place. A.A. is totally organized.
And this is my favorite "Traditions" double-talk:
"He has also been referred to as one of the greatest social architects of the 20th century.....which he probably was."
No, I guess that title would have to go to somebody of a higher caliber, like
Adolf Hitler or Joseph Stalin or Mao Tse Tung.
By the way, Bill Wilson's bragging, claiming that Aldous Huxley called him the greatest
social architect of the 20th century, is probably just another one of Bill's grandiose
lies. It is completely unsubstantiated.
Nowhere in Huxley's writings did Huxley praise Bill Wilson or 12-Step
groups. We have discussed that before
here
and
here.
We have even found what Huxley really did write about Bill Wilson, and Huxley just
said that Bill Wilson was taking more exotic drugs and giving them to other
A.A. members.
You claim a 10% or 15% recovery rate, apparently for A.A., but don't say how
you got those numbers. There is also the question of "Over what time span?"
Since the normal rate of spontaneous remission in alcoholics
is around 5% per year, in two or three years you will get that
10 or 15% sobriety rate without the A.A. "program" doing anything good.
Also, how do you define "recovery" and "success"?
Lots of 12-Step-based treatment centers get an apparent 10% success rate at the day
of graduation, but half of their clients relapse soon after that. The
treatment centers never do a 1-year or 2-year
follow-up to find out how many clients really stayed clean and sober.
At the one-year point, their "success rate" is back to being just equal to
the normal rate of spontaneous remission. That is, they have the same 5% success
rate that untreated alcoholics get by the do-it-yourself method.
Then you rationalized,
Then, your list:
Then you asked,
"Where is the payoff?"
The rest of your rap is just a lame attempt to explain to yourself why someone
would criticize wonderful Alcoholics Anonymous. That is, "Why would someone
bother to tell the truth about a hoax that has hurt a lot of people
while pretending to help them?"
If you really want to know why I do the web site,
here is the list.
Oh well, have a good day anyway.
== Orange
P.S.: Your letter is posted
here.
Hi Orange, I love all your research. I had a friend who was alcoholic. She kept being drawn back to AA and all its abuses. Well, she hung herself. Instead of going for medical attention, she would be coerced back to going to meetings. Her sponsor was a nurse, how ironic. Thank you for the Orange Papers. I have learned a lot!
Sincerely,
Hello Therese,
Thank you for the letter and the compliments.
I'm sorry to hear about your friend.
The list of A.A. suicides
just keeps growing and growing.
Making people wallow in confessions and self-criticism and guilt is deadly.
Oh well, have a good day.
== Orange
I haven't been able to read all of the on-line content, as I was just introduced to it this very night by a co-worker. I have never read anything more true than AA as a cult. I became addicted to prescription narcotics after a back injury and finally checked myself into "rehab" where I struggled with these "concepts" of powlessness etc. etc. I did what was suggested after being throughly brainwashed by the treatment center and attended 12 step meetings got a sponsor and did all the usual bull shit. needless to say after about a year of barely seeing my true friends, which I was told I should not talk to, and my family who were "enabler's", I was miserable. Guess what I relapsed, go figure, who wouldn't. Well this time I got in some legal trouble and went back to my 12 step "friends" who rather than making me feel welcome, beat me down further with I told you so's and the rest of the 12 step non-sensery. Fast forward another 7 months and I started taking control of my own life after being led into financial ruin by the let go and let "god" attitude and guess what. I feel great, I no longer go to meetings, and I am FINALLY getting things together. I totally believe the only miracle in AA/NA is that people continue believing. Being that I am currently at work and can not type freely, I will continue to read and email you more horror stories from the 12 steps. I would truely love to share with you my theories on the hugely flawed "addiction theory" used by most medical de-tox centers whose philosophies are widely based on the 12 steps. Again thank you for the laughs! I was in tears several times. You Rock! Patrick R.
Hi Patrick,
Thank you for the letter, and the thanks. I'm glad that you have figured out
which way is up.
More stories and theories are always welcome.
So have a good day and a good life now.
== Orange
Dear "Orange," I was forced into AA in my teens when I chose to go to a treatment center/ high school for my substance misuse. I went to at least 7 meetings a week for 7 years, even when I was using. I had bouts of sobriety lasting anywhere from a few weeks to nearly two years. Every time I "relapsed," I convinced myself there would be no stopping, and it was indeed a self-fulfilling prophecy. (I was "powerless" after all!) At 19 years old, I found myself having a heart attack in the ER from an overdose. I remember at age 22 taking 600mg or more of Adderal just to make it through my day. I also remember "blowing" (pun intended) through my entire checking and savings account and then some in one evening for cocaine and alcohol. During my seven and a half years in "the rooms," I also struggled with an eating disorder, as well as tobacco addiction. In my mid-20s, I discovered LSD. Much like Bill Wilson, after several balls-out trips, I was cured of my addictions — cigarettes, alcohol, drugs, bulimia. I quit going to meetings, after realizing I was being brainwashed. Now in my late 20s, I've been free from addiction for over three and a half years, and have not been to a meeting since the experiences with hallucinogens. I lost all my AA friends; they are convinced I'm a "bad influence" because I no longer attend meetings. A few AA friends would sneakily try to take me to a meeting after hanging out, and I never received any calls to hang out again once I refused to tag along to the meeting. I no longer smoke cigarettes, and I no longer do illicit drugs. I have had an occasional drink of alcohol in the past three and a half years, but I stop at one or two drinks. I rarely get the desire to drink anymore. I can count the number of times I have drank in the past year on one hand. People in the rooms in my home town had SEEN me drunk, high, wasted, convulsing, and passing out on the floor in meetings from doing so many drugs. I'm saying this to the AA cult followers who are saying "She wasn't one of us, she wasn't really an alcoholic".... Don't tell me I wasn't an addict or alcoholic. I almost DIED and lost everything I had worked for, and even became homeless at 22 years old, all as a result of my addiction. I've been drugged, raped, and beaten as a direct result of drug use. I blacked out, and have tattoos I don't remember getting to prove it. I have long been a fan of your page, and while I have not read everything here, it was certainly a help in explaining to my sponsor why I wasn't answering her incessant phone calls or going to meetings anymore. Oh, and did I explain about all the creepy, usually married, old dudes hitting on me for being a young openly bisexual woman? Never mind, that's a story for another day. I swear, if you and I exchanged phone numbers, we could start discussions about writing a book about our experiences! Thanks again for an awesome website.
Blessed be, P.S. I can't remember if the "letters" section includes readers' email addresses? Please respect my anonymity and do not post it on the web.
Hello Meg,
Thanks for the letter, and thanks for the thanks. Last item first,
I don't print people's email addresses. So no worry.
Thank you for another horror story. I'm glad to hear that you have your
life together and are feeling better now.
I did not miss the point that LSD seemed to help you to overcome
addictions. You aren't the only one to report that, either.
I also feel like I learned some things from it that
encouraged me to finally quit drinking and smoking,
years later, and still help me to stay clean and sober.
Now I'm not recommending that people take it as a cure — I'm not even sure that
anybody is making genuine LSD any more — but I cannot paint it as all negative, either.
Another correspondent was recently talking about treating addictions with
ibogaine and ayahuasca,
here.
So have a good day.
== Orange
http://thinkexist.com/quotation/there_is_a_principle_which_is_a_bar_against_all/13664.html
Hi again, Rick,
No, it is still wrong. Thinkexist is misinformed. They obviously collected bunches of quotes
from here and there, and they got a wrong one (maybe many wrong ones) in their collection.
You should notice that Thinkexist did not say which book that quote supposedly came from.
They don't know. They just have a zillion quotes that they got from somewhere or other.
As Michael found from researching that quote, there are lots of collections
of quotes that have it wrong. They got it from somebody else
who got it from somebody else
who got it from somebody else
who got it from Bill Wilson who got it from Ray Campbell.
Ray Campell put that misquote at the beginning of his story An Artists' Conception
in the first edition of the Big Book.
When Bill Wilson assembled the second edition of the Big Book,
he conducted a purge of the old-timers that would have made Joseph Stalin
proud.
Bill Wilson threw away Ray Campbell's story, but copied the misquote and
put it in Appendix II in the back of the Big Book.
And people have been copying that mistake ever since.
Read Michael's paper on the history of that quote:
Survival_of_a_Fitting_Quotation.pdf
Michael found that the earliest source comes from William Paley (1743—1805)
and William H. Poole, who apparently misquoted William Paley in 1879.
That misquote has been going on for a very long time.
We have discussed this before.
On the web site www.aabibliography.com,
somebody posted a claim that he had found the quote in
"The Pathology of Trauma" by Herbert Spencer, 2nd edition, Edited by
J.K.Mason, page 192.
That turned out to be totally wrong. Spencer never wrote any such book.
Nope, all of those people who say that Spencer wrote that quote are wrong.
And I challenge you to find the source. That means that you get the actual book in
your hands, and you find it on the page.
I tried that.
When somebody said that they remembered it being in
The Principles of Biology, by Sir Herbert Spencer,
I went to the library and actually got that rare book in my hot little hands
and went through it page by page, looking for the quote, and the quote wasn't there.
I did get another great quote though, which is highly applicable to Alcoholics Anonymous:
Oh well, have a good day anyway. == Orange
Dear Mr. Orange, Let's give this a try on your site. I went to AA because I could not stay sober and drank excessively for 25 years. I reached a point in my life that I would walk around with my pants full of poop and piss during the middle of the day. I had no money and no where to go. I found a AA meeting and they let me attend. I got sober hanging around those people and eating their free food. I did not do the steps, nor did I have a sponsor. I also did not read the big book at all. But I did get sober because I had somewhere to go to get out of the rain. Surely, you must give some credit for AA simply having a place to go and be around people. I hung around the place for over a year and have not drank since. Surely you must give some credit to the organization called AA for assisting me in getting sober. Joining organizations for social functions is not a option when the average full blown alcoholic when they are coming off the booze. I don't think you were very far down the line with alcohol at all. I personally think that you have always had problems of "being on the street" but alcohol is only one of your issues. Did you not just recently have to leave your government assisted apartment because it was so junky and disorganized ? Come on Orange. You are still angry at your parents ! Tom Glad to at least you are in a safe place
Hello Tom,
It is good that you quit drinking. You are, however, assuming a cause-and-effect
relationship where none exists. There is zero evidence that you got sober because of
Alcoholics Anonymous.
As you say, you did not even do the A.A. program: Never worked the Steps, never got a sponsor,
never read the Big Book. Just hung out at the A.A. clubhouse because they let you get out of
the rain.
Hasn't it occurred to you that you quit drinking because you got tired of being so miserable?
You finally saw that alcohol had reduced you to a dirty, degraded life, and you decided to
change your life for the better.
Now it's really nice that the people at the A.A. clubhouse let you get in out of the rain.
Bless them. It's nice to have a social club. But that does not make A.A. a good organization,
or show that A.A. makes alcoholics quit drinking.
There are several hang-outs for the street people around here — places that will let
you come in and get out of the rain, and get a hot cup of coffee and a pastry.
The Salvation Army and the Catholic Church sponsor two of them, and a
third is funded by grants from various government agencies and charities.
The people running some of those places are really nice people,
we enjoyed each other's company, but honestly, I don't
think that those places are due the credit for my sobriety.
For every happy story like yours that I recieve, I also recieve a few horror stories,
like
another suicide
and
a coerced child,
and a few more people who were coerced into the cult, like
here
and
here.
Those people don't feel like it's a nice social club.
All of the rest of your rap is just a bunch of
ad hominem attacks.
The things that you cite have nothing to do with whether A.A. helps or hurts alcoholics.
The A.A. success or failure rate is not determined by whether I hate my parents or
have too much electronics gear and books in my apartment or was a hard-core street alcoholic,
drinking under bridges for years.
And of course you are trying to imply that I don't know what I am talking about because
I'm not "a real alcoholic"
— not like you. I'm supposedly not equipped with enough war stories and
disgusting drunkalogues. Okay, so I didn't live under the bridges. Not my style. I'd
spread my sleeping bag in an open field away from everyone else.
But my doctor told me that I was "a late-stage alcoholic", and
said that the death rate for them was the same as for cancer — 50%.
Then he said, "Quit drinking or die. Choose one."
And he also said that when an alcoholic is displaying Spider Angiomas in
his skin, like I was, that it is very close to the end.
Apparently he thought that I was a real alcoholic.
So I guess that I'm close enough to being "a real alcoholic" to be qualified
to say something about it.
Oh well, have a good day anyway.
== Orange
[The next letter in this thread from Tom H. is here.]
Last updated 8 March 2013. |
