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Hey Orange, I'm going over your Propaganda and Debating Techniques again, finding examples of the use of these techniques by Obama and other liberals that mirror the use of them by Bush etc. whom you prefer to use as examples. I am cutting them up and sending "a technique a day" to my kids in college via e-mail, as I believe these will be invaluable lessons that they can use for the rest of their lives to sort through the bull not only in education, politics and the media, but in everyday conversations. But by reading of both conservative and liberal use of propaganda, they will see that this is a universal phenomenon, not just a trait of the conservatives whom you present pretty exclusively in your examples. By this I mean the examples presented of current or recent politicians; we can all agree that Hitler and Stalin were bad...although if they or their systems had ultimately won out, we might be singing their praises! If we were around at all.
Hi David,
Thanks for the letter. Yes, alas, Democrats use those propaganda
techniques too. I wasn't trying
to only use Republican examples — it's just that the Bush administration
was in power for all eight of the
years that I was putting that list of techniques together, so they provided
the most egregious examples of logical fallacies and other uses of those
deceptive techniques.
I note your definition of:
"Hobson's Choice" or Alternative Advance Wikipedia (agreeing with other sources) says:
A Hobson's choice is a free choice in which only one option is offered, and one may refuse to take that option. The choice is therefore between taking the option or not; "take it or leave it.".... Hobson's choice is different from:I don't know about "Alternative Advance," but aren't you off track with your definition of "Hobson's Choice"? I believe that you are right. Thanks for catching that. I'll have to fix that. I always found that definition of Hobson's Choice awkward, and now I think I know why. Again, thanks for an incredible website. Like so many others, I was losing my life to the AA cult, but your writings, along with the observations of my extremely sharp and sceptical wife of the past 10 years, pretty much deprogrammed me and saved me from that life. I am now convinced that part of the reason why I relapsed in the past is because I was — and still am — coerced to attend AA and to use the 12 steps to stay sober. No other alternatives have been allowed. Thanks for the compliments, and I'm glad to hear that you benefitted from the pages. The "program" does things to a person's mind, but producing sobriety is not one of them. After 13 years of being an AA true-believer and repeat lapser, I have now been 12-step and alcohol free for over 2 1/2 years. It has been remarkably easy since I stopped doing constant inventories and beating myself up all of the time. Your web pages gave me other techniques, the most important being...don't take the first drink. I have the power not to do that, and I use it. It's a Hobson's Choice, and I choose not to drink. Congratulations. That's really good. But Step One is just Fraud One in AA. The size of your website speaks to the massive amount of lies and fraud in AA and the related cults, and in the massive "recovery" industry. I am still forced to attend meetings, but your website is an effective antidote to AA's murderous brainwashing techniques. I completely disagree with your politics, but when it comes to recovery you have hit the nail on the head, so you are one of my heroes anyway. Have a great life, Agent Orange. David S.
You have a good life too, David.
And a good day.
== Orange
Hi Orange, I am an educated 51 year old female, who was sober back in 1995 for 7 years without AA. I started drinking socially again in around 2003 and quit again 7 months ago. I can honestly say that although I don't drink anymore, it was only because my body was having a hard time getting the alcohol out of my system even only having 2 drinks. The funny thing is that I never needed anymore than 2 drinks. I would also go weeks without a drink. I never "progressed" as AA members say into somebody "doomed to surely die......if they pick up again" I did attend AA in a new city in March of this year. But prior, I think I could have quit without AA again. This is what I found at AA: They don't reach out to help you as a newcommer. Not one lady reached out to me first. I had to approach them. I actually heard one woman announce in a discussion meeting, that she wasn't approaching newcommers anymore, that they "had to do the work on their own".....what? I made phone calls to many of them. But got tired of doing all the work because they never called me to see how I was doing? I was the one making all the calls. There was one guy there who everybody seemed to look up to. This "phony" told me once leaving the meeting how "good I looked, and I was a fine looking woman". I was so embarrassed, humilated and vulnerable. This was a man who they looked up to in the area? What? I asked one woman to be my sponsor and she turned me down! (her husband talked to me a lot, and I think she was afraid to loose her man). That's what the 12 steps teach you! LOL! When I stopped going, I didn't get 1 phone call from about 12 women I met at AA, even wondering where I was? I was working on just a few months of sobriety! The fact is, they are phony friends and they really don't care. I kept leaving meetings feeling like a pile of crap. Guilty and ashamed. I just couldn't stand listening to their stupid little system of working those steps, or telling strangers your business, or making it like your sponsor is a God or something. I go to an occasional meeting. But I let them know, they will never, ever see me as a regular again. I can stay sober without them. They look at me funny like I am an alien because I don't "keep coming back". I tend to go for the socialization once in a blue moon, and usually what I see is a place where it is easier to not come as often. I may make it once every few months, if that. But that is my choice. They just don't get it, their program doesn't keep you sober. If you get sober in AA, you were ready to get sober. It's called "just being ready". If you make a few friends there, and want to keep socializing there, that's your business. I am personally involved in different social functions who don't preach to me about alcoholism. I don't like being reminded constantly about how sick I am because I am NOT SICK. I make choices not to drink. I am healthy, normal, and well. So keep up the good work reminding people that there are "many" ways to get sober!!!
Sincerely, Oh, Orange. Please make sure you don't post my name and email address!
Thanks,
Hello A.,
Thanks for the letter. It says a lot. It's good to get these reports
about people's experiences. I hope you are doing well now.
So have a good day.
== Orange
A Orange, Everything you have observed in AA is true for Overeaters Anonymous and other programs. Have you received letters from former members of these groups such as FA, FAA, EDA, Graysheeters Anonymous?
A. R. Jenkins "This was the moment — this was the time — when we came together to remake this great nation so that it may always reflect our very best selves, and our highest ideals." President Barack Obama
Hello, A.R.,
I have received only a few letters that talk about Overeaters Anonymous. They usually
do say that it's just like A.A.:
Have a good day.
== Orange
istj has forwarded you this craigslist.org posting. ============================================================ RE: I got sentenced to NA Date: 2009-10-11, 5:45PM If 12-Step programs had ANY integrity, they would have told the courts, and other entities (county drug and alcohol offices, probation, and parole offices!) to STOP sending people to them a long time ago! But they don't! They need the bodies. It gives the "true believers" someone to lord over! It makes their piss-ant, pathetic philosophy somehow justified to be perpetuated on those who have no use or desire for it (like listening to a Mormon missionary or a JW for example!). But there is hope: 2 years ago, the 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals ruled in a Hawaii case (Inouye vs. Kemna) that ANY "coercing authority" can be held INDIVIDUALLY, CIVILLY LIABLE for the 1st Amendment constitutional rights violation that they perpetuate on people unwillingly and involuntarily FORCED to go to 12-Step programs! Why? Because of their overwhelming religiosity! 12-Step groups claim they are "spiritual" (yet 6 of the 12 steps mention or imply "God" — not exactly screaming atheism!). So let YOUR "coercive authority" know that he/she/it is SUBJECT TO A LAWSUIT! BY YOU! IN FEDERAL COURT! See if that won't change their tune! And for the 12-Step groups that thrive on coerced attendees: if you can't get people to attend your circle-jerking VOLUNTARILY, why DO you exist, anyway?
Original URL: http://losangeles.craigslist.org/lac/rnr/1417098644.html ============================================================
Hi istj,
Thanks for the post. It's good to be reminded that religious coercion is
illegal, and the perpetrators can be sued for it.
Have a good day.
== Orange
It is obvious to me that you, are not an alcoholic, not an "expert" and as we used to say in SE Asia: "Are talking through a paper asshole" Thank you for posting this demonstration of your ignorance
Hello How,
Not an alcoholic, huh? Everybody from my doctor to my ex-wife would be very surprised
to hear that.
That is such a
standard cultish A.A. answer
to criticism
—
"You aren't really an alcoholic, because you quit drinking
without A.A., so you don't know what you are talking about."
Oh well, have a good day anyway.
== Orange
Hi "Orange", I find myself morbidly fascinated by the time and effort you have put into your vitriolic expose of Bill Wilson and Alcoholics Anonymous; I come back to your web site every few weeks to read more. It seems that Bill was one of the most vile and evil individuals in the history of mankind and most of the fellowship are just twisted, domineering, ego-maniacs. It is amazing how many desperate simpletons have given themselves over to this ridiculously idiotic "program". I do have one question for you. After repeatedly denouncing the idea of "powerlessness" you then include this "jewel" in your "Lizard Brain Addiction Monster" chapter:
It was easy to quit. So I can mess around a little, and have a few now and then, and it will be okay. Even if I do get readdicted, I can just easily quit again.4) I am wondering this: If "each relapse drains energy out of you" thus making the next attempt several times harder, then if I keep relapsing will I not eventually run out of "energy"; thus making quitting impossible? On the other hand, if there is not an endless supply of "energy" but maybe it is replenished, then the notion that it will be "several times harder" next time around doesn't make much sense. Can you help me out on this, it sounds like I can become "powerless"? Curious,
"The Loon"
Hello Loon,
Thanks for the question. And the answer is, "No, not powerless. Even if it is
extremely difficult to quit a bad habit, that is not 'powerlessness'."
Something else that is going on there is the fact that the motivation to quit again
builds back up, albeit slowly.
When I would backslide and return to smoking cigarettes, it usually took about
three years before the pain and suffering built up to the point where I could muster
up the will power to quit again. I never quit again after, say, smoking for one month.
It took a few years for the motivation to build up.
I only relapsed on alcohol once, but when I went out, I stayed out for nine years.
I was not powerless over alcohol for those nine years; I just didn't want to quit.
I didn't want the fun to end.
It took a lot of pain and suffering for the motivation to build up again.
Still, quitting the second time was much harder than the first, and it took more
suffering and bad things to get me to quit again.
Now mind you, it was not the actually quitting and physical withdrawal that
was hard, it was getting the will to quit.
For example, the first time around, I was
horrified when I had blackouts and couldn't remember what I had done the previous
night. That was part of the motivation to quit.
The second time around, blackouts were normal, and I shrugged them off.
I could hardly ever remember what I did the night before. But since nobody had
arrested me, I couldn't have done anything too bad, I guessed.
Blackouts were no longer horrifying enough to get me to quit.
And the same goes for a lot of the other bad effects of excessive drinking.
Things had to get a lot worse before I quit again.
So yes, it can get harder and harder to quit again — it takes worse and
worse things to get the motivation to quit — the horrifying is no
longer horrifying enough — but that still does not mean
the someone is "powerless over alcohol".
It just means that it is harder to get up the determination to quit again.
Now I see how you can envision a degenerating sequence of quitting and relapsing
until quitting is so difficult that it is beyond the ability of an alcoholic.
But it seems like it isn't really the quitting that is beyond the abilities of
the alcoholics — rather, what they lack most is the will.
They can't want to quit enough to really do it.
They lack the motivation. They just don't really want to quit
and give up the fun (no matter how much
they might say that they want to quit).
There are a lot of such people, and I'm sure that they make up
a sizeable fraction of the 100,000 alcoholics in the USA who die from
alcohol abuse and alcohol addiction each year.
And A.A. does not save them either.
If anything would help them or save them, it would have to be a program or therapy
that increases will power and motivation to quit drinking,
rather than telling them that they are
powerless over alcohol, and that they must surrender their will to a
"Higher Power".
(Not coincidentally, one of the four objectives of SMART just happens
to be to increase motivation to quit bad habits.)
Have a good day.
== Orange
Hi, My name is Jeff Jocoy, and I'm the National awareness coordinator for DrugWatch.com. While I was browsing through a number of addiction and substance abuse sites I came across your website and was very impressed by the information you have listed. Our site features a comprehensive list of drugs and medications that are currently on the market, or were previously available worldwide. We are dedicated to educating the public about the details of prescription and over-the-counter medications, as well as aiding in the protection of patients and consumers by informing them of any associated side effects. We also feature updated information concerning drug recalls, medication approvals, and current developments in the medical field. Patients who are taking medication for their conditions should know the facts when it comes to the benefits and risks of such drugs as well as their addictive potentials. I noticed that you already had some other addiction and substance abuse resources listed at orange-papers.info/orange-links.html and figured you might be interested in including a link to our site as well. ... With your help we can keep the public informed about important drug information. Thanks again!
Sincerely, Drug Watch
Hi Jeff,
Okay, I'll give you a plug. I haven't had the time yet to explore your
web site yet, but I like the sound of what you are doing.
While most people think about things like heroin, cocaine, speed, and ecstacy
when you talk about "drugs", the truth is that prescription drug abuse kills more
people (including Elvis and Michael Jackson).
So it's good for somebody to be keeping an eye on the whole lot of them.
Good luck with your work, and have a good day.
== Orange
Over thinking...........
I feel sad for your anger. I will pray for you. Search for the love that GOD wants us all to experience. Condemnation of others is no solution.
Hi Tim,
Thanks for the letter. Sorry, but you are dead wrong.
Condemnation of wrong-doing and evil is very necessary.
The only thing needed for evil to rule
this world is for the good men to remain silent and do nothing.
Why don't you ask Jesus about his condemnation of the
cheating money-changers, and whipping
them from the Temple? Are you going to tell Jesus that,
"Condemnation of others is no solution"?
By the way, claiming that you shouldn't criticize or condemn anybody is
a standard dodge that cults use to avoid getting criticized.
It's also a standard way to
deflect and deligitimize criticism.
Have a good day.
== Orange
[The story of Carmen continues here.]
istj has forwarded you this craigslist.org posting. ============================================================ 12 Ways to have fun at a coercely-attended NA/AA meeting Date: 2009-10-18, 1:39PM
Location: Wherever they meet Original URL: http://losangeles.craigslist.org/lac/rnr/1427111644.html ============================================================
Hi again, istj,
Thanks for another laugh.
And have a good day now.
== Orange
Hi would like more info on ur perspective on why 12 dont work. And on you.
Hello 201640,
The second question is the easier one.
Here is the list
of answers to "who are you".
Then, why the 12 Steps don't work? Well, that's quite a list. Let me at least hit
a few of the strongest points.
Well, I guess that's enough reasons for starters.
Have a good day.
== Orange
Wholly Shit....SO right on! I was indoctrinated and in the CULT for 12 years. THANK GOD I came to my senses and left that bunch of lunatics and ego driven MORONS. I did not get to see where you or a letter writer talks about the SPONSOR as the GOD FIGURE in the life of the cultist. That is what really pisses me off. Some jack ass loser gets some "time" and is then looked at like a god or father figure. I have seen some of the sickest, most twisted bastards take this role. I agree that these people are downright dangerous. I will say that I believe that some people have good intentions, but they are in the minority..... KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK....
Hi Robert,
Thanks for the letter, and the compliments. I trust that you are feeling much
better now. Isn't freedom great?
We have talked about the insanity of the sponsor system every so often, here and there.
Here are a few of them:
So have a good day.
== Orange
Hi there, I just wanted to take a moment to thank you both for your bodies of work, and for having the character and dedication to speak from intellect and reason, when it seems (at least to me) that there is an ocean of other voices who would prefer you remain silent. I'm a 44 year old former AA member. 10 years of my life "in the rooms," 5 of them heavily involved. In the year 2000 I had a true "moment of clarity" and realized, suddenly and profoundly, exactly how much of my mind I'd given away to a pseudo-religion in which I hadn't even believed in the first place. It's not an exaggeration when I tell you that I've read every page of "Diseasing of America" and "The Orange Papers" dozens of times. I believe these works will stand the test of time as major contributions to the field of addiction studies. I remember hiding "Diseasing of America" when I first got it. That's how fearful I'd become, how small my mind had gotten. I wasn't even going to meetings anymore. But I believed that just owning the book was an affront to AA and what had "so freely been given" to me. When I first visited orange-papers.info, I cleared my browser history so nobody would know I was reading dangerous information. This is not the behavior of a person who is "happy, joyous and free." It wouldn't be fair for me to blame AA entirely — I was vulnerable and lonely and willing to block out logic in exchange for approval and a place to belong. I'm glad to say that since leaving AA, I have taken back my mind. I have reclaimed my right to enjoy the sweet freedom of critical thought. Complexity. Nuance. Depth. And most importantly, I have reclaimed my right to ask questions. The excellence of your efforts has renewed my hope many times over the years, and I thought it was important to let you know that your work has helped me. Really helped me. So...thanks for that! I would prefer to remain anonymous, should you ever wish to post or forward this letter. Best, anonymous
Hello Anonymous,
Thanks for the letter and the compliments. I'm glad to hear that you are free,
and that you benefitted from my pages.
That makes it worth the effort.
Pardon me, please don't take this the wrong way, but I actually got a laugh out
of your saying that you erased the browser history so that no one would know
that you were reading dangerous information.
The funny thing is, way back in the beginning, when
I sent my
first essays to Apple
(who had the AAdeprogramming.com web site then), and explained my situation, she
wise-cracked, "Hah! Writing revolutionary tracts in rehab, are you?"
Yes, dangerous writings.
Have a good day.
== Orange
Hello, I recently stumbled upon your Internet posting "The Orange Papers" and have found it just fascinating. I am myself an active member of AA and have recently enjoyed an extended period of sobriety (admittedly, I had several relapses over several years and it did take me some time to get my life together). I also have to admit that I have not finished reading your web page, but I definitely will. I guess I just wanted to reach out and tell you that my experience in AA has been quite different from what you have described. I live in New York City, and many of the members of my group have more than 20 years of sobriety. Sure, there are people who come and go (and yes, many of them do not return), but what I have learned is that those who really "get" what the 12 step program is about are people who live lives of honor and service — and that has helped them to stay sober. I want you to know that I am not offended by your paper, although my opinion is that I think it could have the unfortunate result of dissuading people who could potentially benefit from what AA has to offer from looking into it...but that is obviously your objective. Regardless, my experience has been that people who's lives get bad enough (if they survive) usually make their way to AA after trying may other treatments that have not worked anyway...so it's all good. As my father used to say, the truth speaks for itself and needs no help. Whatever your ax is to grind is yours...and it is your God given right as an American to express it openly. But if i can ever be of any help to you in clarifying what i believe is a misunderstanding of what 12 step programs are about, i would be happy to speak with you. Good luck and I wish you all good things.
Sincerely,
Hello Nicholas,
Thanks for the letter. You actually managed to say that telling the truth
about Alcoholics Anonymous harms alcoholics in a much nicer way
than most Stepper do.
But a whole lot of other people disagree with you, and say that it's the 12-Step cult
that is harmful.
The fact that you have some members in your group who have 20 years of sobriety
does not indicate that A.A. works. That argument is an example of the
The Semi-Attached
Figure" propaganda technique. The statement that "many of the members of my group have more than 20 years of sobriety" is meaningless without the context, which is,
"So how big is the group, and how many newcomers are there each year?"
The real question is, "What percentage of the newcomers
get 20 years of sobriety?"
The best numbers that I have
indicate that only
one in a thousand gets 20 years. That number is so low that there is no reason
to believe that A.A. keeps people sober.
A few people keep themselves sober. Those are the people that you describe as
the "people who really 'get' what the 12 step program is about".
Have a good day.
== Orange
Mr. Orange; I have happilly found my way to your site. And after much review I thought to go thru my N/A book and mark out all the false delimas, and implanted phobias, and contridictions..... but then I thought how nice it would be if someone else has already done that. Google offered no N/A book critique. So I was wondering if you might have a colleuge or knowledge of a web site who has treated that book with the same carefulness that you have with the Big Book. One thing I have so far figured out form reading parts of it is that the entire system is meant to implant power to the lizard brain. The readings say be here or else addiction lurks. It makes me bonkers. Here we have, on the one hand, people who leave their Christianity and manage to eliminate the fears of hell. And weaken entirely the self doubt urges. And I think to myself, why can't one distance and educate themselves and likewise weaken and eliminate the addiction drive? Wouldn't it be weird if ex-christians joined groups that told them to keep coming back or else you will get saved again? I don't feel that my letter is worthy of printing (as I offensivly mixed metaphors by mentioning christianity), I just wanted to ask you personally if you had information I could use concerning the N/A book. Michael (ps. of course writing a Chrisitanity Anonymous joke might be hilarious for you to undertake and I'd want to see it.)
Hi Michael,
Thanks for the letter.
Alas, I haven't gone through the N.A. books to the same depth as I have
done with A.A. books. I own a few of them, and have paged through them and
compared sections with their A.A. brethren, to see how N.A. wrote
the same things, and quickly came to the conclusion, "Yes, it's a clone."
But I don't really have any great information to add, and I don't know
anyone who does. Maybe the readers do?
Don't worry about mixed metaphors. And I loved the line about
ex-Christians joining support groups that say, "Keep coming back or you
might get Saved again." That's good.
Have a good day.
== Orange
The law of logical argument: Anything is possible when you don't know what you are talking about.
Hello Anne,
Thanks for the quote. That's good. And it seems totally appropriate for
people whose religion consists of praying for miracles on demand.
Have a good day.
== Orange
After 13 years in AA I am no longer identifying as an alcoholic or going to as many meetings. The only requirement for membership is a desire to stop drinking. I am going to one meeting a week and telling people that ask what I did not what I think. I bought the programming when I was new and stayed sober in cult like fashion taking no responsibility for myself. Today I stay sober knowing that...
I have learned much about human nature by going to meetings. Human instinct, breeding, networking, opportunism, control, etc. In Alanon I acquired tools that can be used as weapons or defense against would-be steppers. As with all things, I now use AA in moderation. I do not drink because I appreciate my health today and do not want to trade a couple hours of intoxication for any clouded judgment or illness. This is my 12th step.
Hi HPP,
Thanks for the letter. I'm glad to hear that you are doing well, and have
a good take on things.
So have a good day and a good life.
== Orange
Dear A. Orange: Just want to seriously thank you for the writing on Bill Wilson and AA. I have been writing a paper on alcoholism and scientific research that is geared towards a solution based on science through breaking down the DNA strand. I recently lost two friends in August 2009. One to severe alcoholism (he had major family history of the disease) he had been to meetings and rehabs all over the continent — didn't help. I lost my second friend to AA. He traded one addiction for another which started out with one meeting once a week or every other week — has progressed into two a day and broke up with me. All he talks about is AA, addiction, disease — depressing to watch this and I don't know him anymore. His sponsor's word and his "program" come first. Now that my other friend died — he uses that as an even stronger reason people should be in AA. Your information is a great breakdown of some facts I have found in different places. Respectfully, M.L.
Hi Michelle,
Thanks for the letter, and thanks for the thanks.
I'm sorry to hear about your losses. Both
addictions and cults are just monsters, aren't they?
Have a good day.
== Orange
dear mr orange i would just like to thank you for helping me escape from AA. i've been sober just over seven years and i've realised that its me thats kept me sober or rather my choice to keep away from alcohol. i was always seen as a rebel within AA because i dared to question its tenets and the big book. i read the big book over and over and still though it was the biggest load of (excuse my french) old shite ever printed. your site is superb and very well researched and intelligent. have you ever watched a film called zeitgeist? its very interesting it exposes religion as the fraud of the ages. AA is just another cult that caught on much the same as the moonies etc and i'm sure as mankind's understanding of addiction increases it will die a slow death Once again thankyou from my heart agent orange i think i may become agent green igf thats ok lol. as they say here in england mr orange i like the cut of your jib.
many thanks
Hello Roy,
Thanks for the letter and the compliments. I haven't seen "Zeitgeist". I'll have
to check it out.
It's quite alright with me if you use the name "Agent Green", but I must warn you
that at least two other people are already using the name, and
one is very pro-A.A.,
and
one is anti-A.A..
Also see
this discussion
of the pro-A.A. Green,
and
this correspondent's response to Green.
Have a good day.
== Orange
Last updated 8 March 2013. |
