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Date: Sun, November 11, 2012 3:49 pm (Answered 20 November 2012) Wow folks I just spent the past 2 hrs reading your input about. AA Not too sure what your trying to do here make people believe that the meetings, the program isn't inspired by God? Or The co founders were screwed up? Or what? Bill was sick we all know that ironically enough if you ever go to meetings you harl ever hear Bills r Dr. Bobs name even mentioned so just a little inside scoop they are not our leaders or God to us old timers or new comers. My qualification is this, I took my last drink and drug on October 22 1994 and just celebrated 18 yrs of sobriety. I have a sponsor who has a sponsor who's sponsor was Dr. Bob. I know for a fact I had absolutely no idea where I would be if I wasn't sober and clean but I can bet it wouldn't be in my brand new home that I just built and owner of a roofing company with over 300 employees and 3 locations. I was living in a 1981 Toyota pickup truck a single father drinking a 12 pack everyday shooting heroin and cocaine every chance I could before I became recovered by this cult as you call it. I would steal your wallet and help you look for it. I was unsuccessful in the Marine Corpse I quit school in the 9 th grade I am a convicted felon and can add to the list, all this before I was 30 as I got sober at 29. And now look at me now as a result of this so called Cult. Reading your point of view and really feeling sorry for you that you feel you need to try and disclaim AA somehow which I can honestly say you'll never do. Even if AA dies, I along with all the other sober recovering alcoholics will still carry the message to the sick and suffering, isn't that odd? Kinda spiritual If you will. My primary purpose is to stay sober and help others recover from alcoholism Am I cult member because ethics really works?
You see AA is Alive and well and in just about every county in world despite all of
The cofounders issues sickness whoring around lying steeling and whatever that may
come to light. And it keeps growing because it works if you work it Just curios how you know all this information? AA folk don't force anyone to go to AA and basically if you want to drink that's your business and if you want to stop thats AA business. Again it's a real shame you spent so much time pointing out the worst in our society and absolutely no time in the benefits people have received and how lives have been restored families — not all- but most, have been reunited as well. There must be a real deep sadness in your life and a low self worth that you would want to slander something that works so well. It's like you in fact may also be suffering from the grandiose whatever. I am a proud member of this cult then if it is. Take it for what it's worth no one in AA has ever told me to do anything or asked anything from me. Oh and maybe this will help you while your driving home thanks to the way Bill Wilson Doctor Bob alky#4 and all the first 100 wrote our literature my sponsor and every AA meeting i have ever been to, you don't have to worry about me driving drunk and killing you or you spouse or someone you love today. Again it looks like your intention is to kill AA but my friend That will never happen. Thank God for freedom of speech because it allows me to say to you Live and Let Live This too I learned in AA the past 18 years. God bless Glewis Sent from my iPad
Hello Greg,
Thanks for the letter. Congratulations on your sobriety. You decided to quit drinking
and doping, and you did it. Good. Where would you be if you continued to drink and
dope while going to A.A. meetings? How well would "The Program" work then?
Now that tells you what the program really does.
About your other points:
Have a good day now.
== Orange
Last night on TV I saw the leader and CEO of Goldman Sachs mouthing off on the
economy. That guy had the gall to declare that the little people need to stop
expecting so much from the government, like Medicare and Social Security, because
they aren't going to get it.
This is after Larry Summers and Tim Geithner handed the U.S. Treasury to Goldman
Sachs in a bailout. Both Summers and Geithner are former Goldman Sachs employees,
and they felt that saving Goldman Sachs was the most important thing in the country,
far more important than keeping middle-class people from losing their homes.
Much of the bailout money was routed to Goldman Sachs through AIG, the insurance company
turned casino.
Goldman Sachs had placed so many bets with AIG that if AIG didn't pay off
all of the bets 100 cents
on the dollar, Goldman Sachs was bankrupt. So Summers and Geithner insisted that
AIG had to be propped up with the biggest bailout in the history of the world, so
that it could pay its debts to Goldman Sachs.
Then Goldman Sachs executives celebrated by giving themselves multi-million-dollar bonuses.
And now this creep of a Goldman Sachs CEO goes on TV and declares that the little
people have to quit expecting hand-outs from the government.
Now that takes some nerve.
[ Link here =
http://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters332.html#Moritz_G ]
Date: Tue, November 13, 2012 2:38 am (Answered 20 November 2012) Thank you for your reply, I am aware of the fact that I am not the only one writing you. I am sorry to hear that you are ill, if it is just a cold I am sure you will be fine soon. I am happy that we agree, it is very hard to find people in the US (and in Germany to a lesser degree as well) that have not been brainwashed into the neoliberal supply side economics invest and export dogma. Not even the simple equivalence of debt=credit saving=borrowing is understood. Even now that it becomes obvious, that we will not get that money we made by exporting, people just blame the debtors like Greece. In 2010 I talked to a (self-made) millionaire who made his money in the industrial machine business. He asked me what I was talking about, telling him that the exporting had a flip-side, his money would be right there in the bank account. Yes, it was and still is, thanks to the government guarantees. But really that is just a number, only the first in the bank-run would actually get that amount, after all the money isn't there, that is the whole idea. I am not a hard core socialist or marxist, I like the German way.
There is a simple two part solution that would not require highly
progressive taxation or protectionism. That would solve a huge part of our social, economic and ecological problems, without "hurting" those highly motivated by money. The trouble is of cause implementing those two points.
yours,
Hello again, Moritz,
Yes, I do believe that we agree on economic matters.
And happily, I think a lot of the American people do too.
As the last election showed, only about 50% of the American people are buying
into the "trickle-down" economics idea,
or the "the neoliberal supply side economics invest and export dogma".
Maybe there are really far less than that, because a lot
of the people who voted Republican really did it for a variety of other
reasons that range from Obama being black to simple hatred of Democrats.
Or issues of "God and abortions". The election was not just about economics.
Your two suggestions, taxing inheritances, and including external costs, sound
good, but they sure are revolutionary. The second one in particular would devastate
some industries. I'm not complaining about that, just saying.
Nuclear power, for instance, would be dead. If the nuclear industry really had to
pay all of the costs of storing nuclear waste for the next 100,000 years, they would
go bankrupt. And if they had to pay for insurance to cover the damage that they can
do (and really do, like Chernobyl and Fukushima), they would go bankrupt.
Actually, nobody in the world would insure them, and they can't afford to pay off
when they destroy large areas.
The local people just get stuck with the losses.
Likewise, the oil industry would be in shock if they had to pay their way,
instead of getting tax breaks and special allowances and cheap oil leases on
government land.
The oil companies would freak out if they had to hire, and pay and equip,
their own armies and fight their own wars to steal the oil from foreign countries,
rather than having George W. and the U.S. Army go steal it for them (think Iraq).
The oil companies would really be bankrupt if they had to pay for all of the
costs of using petroleum — everything from smog damage and pollution to the
effects of global warming. They would really scream if the oil and coal industries
had to split the cost of Hurricane Sandy.
Still, in the long run, I think your suggestions will come to pass. Corporate welfare will
end. The only question is whether the United States of America will die first,
getting bled dry from propping up the corporations.
Oh well, have a good day now.
== Orange
[The next letter from Moritz_G is here.]
Date: Thu, November 15, 2012 9:40 am (Answered 20 November 2012) Really a cult? How funny- thanks for the laugh though. You did not do your homework on the true history of AA, but you are entitled to your opinion- even though you are way off base. The AA program helps millions of people around the world- MILLIONS and AA was founded of The Oxford group that used the King James Bible for their studies- and the bible was used before the Big Book was written and sayings are from the scripture of the Kings James Bible and can be found there. Had you done any real research you would know that. You put this on the Internet; so it must be TRUE!!!! OMG- how sad you are-- but facts don't count. I can tell by your ramblings---- Go to Founders Day Akron Ohio the first weekend of June every year and learn the true history and facts of Alcoholics Anonymous----
I'll pray for you as you are more twisted than Bill & Bob ever were drunk ;)
Hello Toni,
Thanks for the letter. Unfortunately, you are wrong about nearly everything.
And you are in denial.
You can also read these three religious tracts that were the manuals of the Oxford
Group. They contain some very warped theology:
And you can also read this contemporary book about the Oxford Group:
Reinhold Niebuhr, the author of The Serenity Prayer, said of the Oxford Group:
"In other words, a Nazi social philosophy has been a covert presumption of
the whole Oxford group enterprise from the very beginning."
And that is not a quote "taken out of context."
Click on this link:
Buchman and Hitler,
and you can read the entire article where Reinhold Niebuhr criticized
Frank Buchman for his Nazi philosophy.
And remember that Dr. Frank Buchman was the theological father of Alcoholics Anonymous.
Bill Wilson just wrote down the practices of Buchmanism
to get the 12 Steps and the religious dogma in the Big Book, and Bill Wilson even emphatically said so.
Have a good day now.
== Orange
[ Link here = http://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters332.html#Toni_2 ]
Date: Wed, November 21, 2012 8:34 pm (Answered 3 December 2012) whatever- there is no leader in AA-
Hello again, Toni,
Of course there are leaders, in spite of the slogan about there being
no leaders. The first leaders you will notice are the old-timers with the most
years of Time, who dominate the meetings with their well-practiced raps.
Then the pyramid of leaders goes from the group secretary all the way up through
the various area leaders, up to the President and General Manager of A.A. in the Interchurch
Center in New York City, Reverend Ward Ewing, Class A Trustee and just retired President, General Theological Seminary, NYC (Episcopal).
Have a good day now.
== Orange
[The next letter from Toni_L is here.]
Date: Sat, November 17, 2012 11:00 am (Answered 20 November 2012) Hi Orange, I wrote years ago and wanted to thank you again for all your hard work. A little backdrop here. I'm a woman with a history of child abuse and took to drugs and alcohol from 15 til last week, it's been a week now since I stopped. All my life I've thought I was bad and weak and couldn't handle things like others could. The last few months I'm realizing that's not so, and that my root problem is the childhood I never healed from. Ten years ago I went to rehab and got into step meetings there. When I returned I joined a local group and attended many meetings, did service, etc. I never actually did step work though. I got the NA workbook and did a bit of exercises on my own but that didn't last long. I don't know why I didn't get into the step work, I did believe in them at the time. Something in me bristled at being told what to do. I also started to see things that bothered me. A few of the oldtimer men spoke to me about the affairs they had with younger women members. One told me graphic details about catching another married oldtimer having sex with a young woman. I was in a bad marriage and I remember my first meeting, a fellow sat besides me and invited me to coffee after. I basically had no social life and it was nice to get out for a little bit. Over the next weeks he started to show he liked me, and I liked him, but we didn't do anything beyond talk. One night he invited me to his home, and I wanted to but had a husband. Eventually things deteriorated and he would deny ever liking me. I really liked this guy and the more I showed that, the worse he treated me. One time I asked about his mother-in-law who was very ill with cancer, I asked how she was, he told me I was a "disgusting human being" for prying. I was shocked and this hurt so much. My interaction with him led me to detach more and more from the group and AA in general. He said to me, "We've helped you so much, but you're incorrigible". He played a lot of mind games with me. Another thing happened that struck me, an oldtimer woman dying of cancer told me at her last meeting that she was afraid to take her morphine pills in case she got addicted. I started to really get disturbed by the messages of AA. I stopped going to meetings, though I'm technically still a member of my group. Over the last year I've dropped by my home group 3 or 4 times. Out of loneliness, needing to be around people. More and more I feel snubbed. I hate the limp handshakes, I shake hands firmly, it makes me feel rotten. Or someone asking, "How you doing?" and walking away as I answer. I don't understand these people. Is it ME??? They talk and they talk about helping and spirituality and they snub at the same time. All they want to do is praise AA. They look so together and laugh and are social and here I am still struggling, poor and in shabbier clothes, sitting alone. By all appearances I'm the screw-up, yet I still feel angry and sense this hypocrisy from them. It looks one way but inside I'm experiencing something else. They want me to come back and say, "I'm back, you were right". That's what I think, though that's not said, cause, no one in my home group says anything much to me. If the only requirement is to stop drinking why don't they talk to me the way they did? Last night on impulse I went again to my home group. I didn't know it, it happened to be the 15th medallian of the guy I liked years ago. I saw him dressed up and said something, but he barely acknowledged me. (Afterwards I thought, this guy abused me and never owned up to it, why am I giving him the time of day? But that's my childhood conditioning, be nice and pleasing, and I'm working on it). A few minutes later, his sponsee gave me a limp handshake. I remember once telling him I didn't need a sponsor, and how shocked he looked. I sat down and saw an acquaintance. His father beat the shit out of him as a kid and he's been on drugs ever since. He looked bad, scruffy, gaunt, no teeth, nodding off. The man sitting beside him took off after a few minutes, looking uncomfortable. I took the man's seat and sat next to my acquaintance for the meeting. People looked at him sometimes as he nodded off. He spilled his coffee on the floor, the guy sitting right there didn't even move to look. A woman walked by for her coffee and smiled at him. He said, "I gotta lot of friends here". The only people who said hi to me were those who were new to me. A few women spoke to my acquaintance, no men, at least during the meeting. I felt comfortable with my acquaintance. I talked to him after, I said, "I'm worried, you're nodding off". He said he'd been to the hospital for kidney stones and they gave him a morphine shot he didn't want. I didn't believe him but didn't say that. He said he was coming on 6 months totally clean and sober. I said to him, "You know it's all about your childhood, right?" He said yes he knew. I told him, "Always remember somebody cares, you are worth it, we are worth it". He said he didn't believe that. I left him thinking, this is the last place he should be. And maybe it's the last place I should be too. Something about this whole thing is so wrong to me. I don't believe it's me. Maybe I just don't want to believe that. I refuse to revere AA. I am interested in PEOPLE and not a program. There are two things I'm struck with about the people in AA: One, the program comes before people, even though they talk about service and giving back. And the poor sufferer out there. Two, these people can't kiss alcohol goodbye. They haven't had a drink in years or decades, but it's still a part of their life. "If I can't have booze in my life one way, I'll have it in another." That's what I think. Course, I'm just someone with no Time, I don't commit to the wonderful program, I'm not being honest, etc. Why can't so many see that this broken man nodding off was them?? Might have been on a different substance, but it doesn't matter. He agrees with the program, he mutters in agreement with what's being said. But so many seem so uncomfortable with him. I thought he was the most genuine person there. . Any thoughts, Orange? Thank you for reading
Hello Doren,
Thank you for the letter. It says a lot, and you really nailed some items.
And congratulations on your decision to quit your addictions.
Yes, all of the yammering about "Let us love you until you can love yourself", is just
a slogan, not what is really happening.
The way that you saw them treating the guy who was nodding off tells the real story.
There is no love there. Just demands for conformity.
And the way that they treated you is the same thing. They don't give unconditional love,
they give conditional approval.
"We will approve of you if you say what we want to hear,
and believe the right things, and Work The Steps.
Oh, and perform sexually when we demand it. Otherwise, flake off."
And yes, you noticed the status game of who has the most Time.
That is so phony. One thing that I'm sure of, is when they get to the Pearly Gates,
St. Peter is not going to ask, "Let's see now. How much sober Time do you have?"
You also noticed the constant put-downs. (How could you not notice it?)
That is standard cult fare. That's how they mess with your mind.
It's the second item in the Cult Test:
You are always wrong.
Again, we see that a bunch of former drinkers and dopers are not automatically
good recovery counselors. Often, they are terrible counselors — not really counselors
at all — just flawed people with their own agendas.
And they are even occasionally mentally ill. They are not the kind of people whom you
would want to trust with your life.
By the way, I'm adding this letter to
the list of A.A. horror stories.
Have a good day now, and a good life.
== Orange
P.S. On re-reading your letter, I noticed a few more standard cult characteristics:
Oh well, have a good day now. And have a happy holiday season.
== Orange
Date: Sat, December 1, 2012 10:21 am (Answered 4 December 2012) Thanks Orange, great comments. I've decided to stand firm in making that the last meeting I'll ever go to. I'm surprised that I've been dissatisfied with AA for years yet it's taken me so long to break away. It saddens me because there are truly decent people there but it's not worth the snubbing from those I knew. You also have a great holidays, Doren
Hi again, Doren,
I'm not surprised at how hard it is to break away from a cult. They are very
good at keeping people. That's how it works. That's how they survive. They use
everything from
creating self-doubts and feelings of powerlessness
to
guilt induction
to
implanting phobias to keep people from leaving.
And it works.
But you are free now. Congratulations.
Have a good day, and a happy holiday season.
== Orange
Date: Sun, November 18, 2012 6:47 pm (Answered 22 November 2012) I am not sure who has more research material on Alcoholism and AA ... Mr. Orange or me. We both have over 12 years of personal continuous sobriety and both feel AA can be dangerous. I throw rocks at Orange, usually because of his "street revolt style" of writing but he can dodge and weave like a good pugilist and he enjoys it. ( even though he denies enjoying it) I have a question to both Mr. Orange and myself. I "chose" a deferred prosecution program to stay out of jail. Mr. Orange entered "voluntarily" in a AA treatment program so to have a roof over his head. We were both motivated towards sobriety by a forced program. We both had to piss in a bottle or we would either end up in jail (in my case) and Terry would end up homeless again. I dislike AA as much as Mr. Orange, but for some reason we both kept pissing in a bottle, and attending AA meetings until we reached the required program specifications. I do not have the answer for myself, but somewhere down the line, I think I was motivated physically and psychologically by force. This helped get me on the early road to permanent sobriety. There are a lot of us former drinkers that are really pissed off at having to admit we needed help. I am not talking about doing the steps and all that bullshit, as I never did them, or ever had a sponsor.
What say you, Mr. Orange ?
Hello again, Tom,
The simple answer is that the so-called "treatment program" did nothing for me.
The help that I needed was a dry bed and a roof over my head, and food, and medical
care, and I got that from the city of Portland, and for that I am grateful.
And being around other people who were in recovery helped me to pick up some
positive attitudes and feelings about recovery. You don't feel so odd or different
or stigmatized when everybody around you is in recovery, and it's just a commonly-accepted
fact of life.
All that
the "treatment program" at the Portland Alternative Addiction Center (PAAC)
did for me was teach me that
a crazy cocaine-snorting, child-raping, Internet child pornographer
could make good money by yammering 12-Step slogans at sick people.
And I learned that "treatment centers" are some of the biggest criminal rackets
in the USA. And really profitable too. Especially when they double-bill and triple-bill.
Again, I am reminded of my floor manager from the housing that I was in.
I met her on the streets several years later. She told me that out of the entire
group of people who were going through that housing and treatment program back then
— between 100 and 200 people — I was the only one who had not relapsed.
I really hoped that some other people made it; I liked some of those people.
I still hope that they make it.
To assume that the so-called "treatment program" somehow helped me to get sober
is the same logical fallacy as assuming that going to 12-Step meetings makes people get sober.
(Confusion of Correlation and
Causation.)
By the way, I quit drinking two weeks before I started the "treatment program",
so it wasn't the cause of my quitting. The real reason why I quit drinking — and
then quit smoking — was because I
was so sick that I was dying, and my life fell apart, and I decided not to die that way.
If you want to find a reason why I quit and stayed quit, that is it: I got fed up
with the pain and suffering, and chose to live better.
The truth is always that those people who choose to quit drinking and drugging, and
use their will power to stay quit, will succeed, and the other people won't.
Have a good day now, and a happy holiday season.
== Orange
[The next letter from Tom_H is here.]
From: "lancesvw" I find it interesting you have taken such a controversial view of a fellowship who's Primary Purpose is only to help the still suffering alcoholic. I am also amazed at the time and effort you have devoted to your "Orange Papers". AA does not hide, is open to anyone who has a desire to stop drinking. It's financials are open to anyone who wishes to see them. Anyone can come and go, stay or leave. It's one of if not the most successful program to help alcoholics. The book, Alcoholics Anonymous states it is not the only solution and urges cooperation with institutions related to alcoholism. The cofounders had there issues. In fact those issues and behaviors are things in common at least partially with a lot of alcoholics, so what. AA offers a solution if you want it, if you don't that's OK. I feel you have done what so many have done when trying to build a case for there own belief is take things out of context and build your case. That's OK too. I don't buy the cult thing. I know all the stories you cite for Bill and Bob. Again I can relate to those stories and behaviors as most people I know do. That's the point! The steps and traditions are a way to begin a lifetime of change for the better. And finally, it's common knowledge the information contained in the "Big Book" was borrowed from many sources and people. The Bible, Emmett Fox, The Washingtonians, The Oxford Group and numerous clergy and friends of the time. So while I appreciate your effort the battle has been fought for over 70 years and at least one solution is still there for the millions who want it. Respectfully
Hello Lance,
Thanks for the letter. That is quite a recitation of standard A.A. slogans, falsehoods,
logical fallacies, and propaganda.
Sorry, but that is not true at all. At the highest levels, A.A. the corporation is only
interested in self-preservation and making money. That is shown by how
they sued poor Alcoholics Anonymous members in Mexico and Germany
for printing and giving away their own inexpensive literature.
The lawsuit was totally fraudulent: The A.A. representatives committed perjury by claiming that
they had a copyright on old
copy-right-expired editions of the Big Book.
Perjury is lying after having taken an oath to God on the Bible
to tell the truth. Not very spiritual there.
On the lower levels, A.A. members have a variety of motives that range from sexual
exploitation of newcomers to self-aggrandizement.
And yes, a few members are genuinely interested in getting sober and living better lives.
But nobody joins A.A. with the goal of helping others — the motivation is self-preservation.
By the way,
A.A. "Tradition 5"
contradicts what you said:
There, the "primary purpose" is to "carry a message"
— to proselytize for A.A. — not to "help the still suffering alcoholic".
To try to equate those two things requires some very twisty word games, including
the false assumption that A.A. helps alcoholics, which it doesn't.
And what message? The message that you should
practice Dr. Frank Buchman's cult religion,
and that's a cure for alcohol abuse?
Well thanks. If a job is worth doing, it is worth doing right.
Does not hide? They sure hide from the truth. And they hide the truth.
The A.A. headquarters keeps the historical archives sealed and locked
up so that people like us cannot see the real history of A.A.
The finances are open only so far as is required by law. As a tax-exempt non-profit
corporation, they have to file Form 990, and those documents are public. But there are
all kinds of problems with them, ranging from false claims of money paid to employees
to mysterious over-payments.
Unless they have been sentenced to A.A. meetings by a judge or parole officer or
"rehab" or "treatment center" or
"diversion program" or "employee assistance program"
or misguided boss.
The last A.A. triennial survey that asked about it revealed that 63% of the
members had been sentenced, coerced, forced, or pressured into A.A. by somebody.
(Look here.)
That's nearly two out of three members who came into A.A. as prisoners.
What a neat recruiting racket for a cult.
Actually,
A.A. is a total failure,
and always has been.
Bill Wilson just lied about
the A.A. sobriety rate, and A.A. is still doing that.
Since you think that A.A. works, please tell me:
Out of each 1000 newcomers to A.A., how many will pick up a one-year
sobriety medallion a year later?
No qualifiers are allowed, like, "We will only count the people who worked the program right, or
we will only count the people who really tried, and kept coming back."
Everybody counts. No exceptions.
No excuses are allowed. When the doctor gives a patient penicillin, and it fails to cure the infection,
the doctor doesn't get to say, "But he didn't work the program right. He didn't pray enough.
He didn't surrender. He held something back in his Fifth Step."
No excuses.
So what's the actual A.A. cure rate?
Bill Wilson did a flip-flop on A.A. being "the only solution":
Meaning: We don't have the only solution.
"For most cases, there is virtually no other solution."
Meaning: There is no other solution.
Any willing newcomer feels sure A.A. is the only safe harbor for the foundering vessel he has become.
Meaning: There is no other solution.
It's just a big bait-and-switch trick to get the newcomers in the door:
Such "cooperation" is
just another recruiting trap.
A.A. uses rehab centers,
detox centers, treatment centers, jails, prisons, and courts as recruiting agencies.
Here is the official A.A. statement on using courts to get people sentenced to
A.A. meetings:
Wow. That is some world-class minimization and denial. Denial isn't just a river
in Egypt.
Bill Wilson was a crazy self-aggrandizing narcissistic criminal
who
stole the Big Book publishing fund
and
the copyright of the Big Book
and made A.A. support him in luxury for the rest of his life, with
a beautiful home in the country and a Cadillac car and all of the money he could ever need,
and a harem of mistresses.
Bill was a sexual predator who used A.A. for his supply
of new mistresses, and he was a pathological liar who sold
Dr. Frank Buchman's heretical occult religion
as a quack cure for alcoholism, and
said that it worked great when it didn't,
and all that you can say is that he "had some issues"?
You think all alcoholics do that?
Likewise,
Dr. Bob was a crazy vicious child-abuser
who forced the 31-year-old womanizing alcoholic
Ernie Galbraith, A.A. Number Four, on his 17-year-old daughter Susan. You call that
"some issues"?
You think all alcoholics do that?
Both Bill Wilson and Dr. Robert Smith were mentally-ill suicidal drinking-to-die
alcoholics who suddenly decided that
practicing Dr. Frank Buchman's pro-Nazi cult
religion
was the answer to all problems in life.
And you call that "some issues"?
You think all alcoholics do that?
A.A. does not offer "a solution". Practicing an old cult religion from
the nineteen-thirties is not a "solution" to the problem of addictions.
A.A. does not work.
Even
Dr. George E. Vaillant,
who went on to become a very enthusiastic Trustee of Alcoholics Anonymous,
and the biggest promoter of A.A around, wrote about A.A. treatment of alcoholism:
And actually, the A.A. treatment was interfering with normal
spontaneous recovery, even
raising the death rate in alcoholics.
No, I do not take things out of context. We've been over this
many times before.
It's even listed in the Propaganda Tricks web page:
Claim That Quotes Are Taken Out Of Context.
Well, A.A. is still a cult, no matter whether you buy it or not. Read
The Cult Test.
A.A. easily qualifies as a cult.
Members of a cult always insist that they are not in a cult.
"Our group isn't a cult.
It's only those other weird groups that are cults.
Our group has a wonderful new revelation that is the wave of the future."
By the way, all of these lame arguments that you are making in defense of A.A. are more
evidence that A.A. really is a cult.
The 12 Steps
and the so-called
"12 Traditions"
are just practices and rules for
another cult religion, not a good "way of life".
Claiming that the organization/church/group has
"the solution" — a panacea — "a wonderful new way to
change for the better",
is just another standard cult characteristic.
Again, you are in denial, and
reversing reality.
A.A. does not make cruel criminals into wonderful well-behaved spiritual people.
Read the horror stories
for reports of what those people are doing after they join A.A. and get years
of "sobriety" and become sponsors.
Wrong again. It's all garbage from the Oxford Group. A.A. is not from the Bible. In fact,
A.A. is grossly heretical and unChristian.
Read The Heresy of the Twelve Steps.
You want something from the Bible? How about:
"And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." (John:8:32)
So learn the truth, please.
There is little or nothing in the Big Book from The Washingtonians or Emmett Fox.
It's all Dr. Frank Buchman's bull. Bill Wilson even said so, repeatedly, very clearly:
He said, "nowhere else."
Where did the early AAs find the material for the remaining
ten Steps? Where did we learn about moral inventory, amends for
harm done, turning our wills and lives over to God? Where did we
learn about meditation and prayer and all the rest of it?
The spiritual substance of our remaining ten Steps
came straight from Dr. Bob's and my own earlier
association with the Oxford Groups, as they were then
led in America by that Episcopal rector, Dr. Samuel Shoemaker.
Of course Bill Wilson listed Sam Shoemaker, the number two man, as the leader of the
Oxford Groups because Frank Buchman was so hated for
his praise of Adolf Hitler and
Heinrich Himmler.
That is just more deception and dishonesty.
What battle has been fought for over 70 years? If you mean quitting drinking, people
have been quitting drinking ever since the Egyptians invented beer 5000 years ago.
Sobriety did not just start 70 years ago.
And campaigns for sobriety became quite widespread and popular
in England during the eighteen-hundreds, after gin was invented,
and people saw first-hand the effects of excessive drinking of distilled liquors.
You already mentioned
the Washingtonians,
who were sobering up people in the USA in the mid-eighteen-hundreds.
And the Salvation Army published "In Darkest England and the Way Out"
with their religious cure for alcohol abuse in 1890.
And then there was the Keeley League, and Keswick, and the Emmanuel Society, and the Womens'
Christian Temperance Union.
There have been many, many sobriety societies and movements.
Look here
for descriptions of some of them.
A.A. is nothing more than another me-too wannabe.
If you mean the battle to foist Frank Buchman's cult religion on America, well yes,
that battle has been going on for 70 years now.
And yes, Frank Buchman's and Bill Wilson's cult religion is still available to us.
So are Scientology and the Moonies and the Hari Krishnas.
And Heaven's Gate, and the Branch Davidians, and even the People's Temple.
Yes, there are actually surviving fragments of those crazy suicide cults still going.
But I strongly recommend that you don't waste your life on such madness.
Have a good day now. And a happy holiday season.
== Orange
Date: Mon, November 19, 2012 10:18 am (Answered 23 November 2012) I have had problems with drugs (after being prescribed Percocet after a bad fall) and I've had stints with gambling. However, I haven't had Percs in over 2 1/2 years and haven't gambled in over a year ... without NA or GA. (Gasp!) Your website is very comprehensive and spot on when you refer to any cultish behavior from the 12-step members. When I say I'm not an addict, that I've had PROBLEMS with drugs and gambling in the past, I'm barraged by "You are an addict! You cannot be cured!" Whether I'm cured or not is not the point. I don't feel well after drugging and feel crappy after gambling (even if I've won — it's the guilt-induced GA crap that gets to me). GA members wax rhapsodic on the "good ol' days" when they could slam members against the wall and scream at them to "STOP GAMBLING!". This is pure hogwash, obviously and usually has the opposite effect. When you tell a child not to do something, his first reaction is to do it. It's the pink elephant theory. Don't think about a pink elephant. Go ahead, try. What are you thinking about? Let me hazard a guess... I applaud your efforts and your eagerness to expose "The truth". It is out there. Be well and take care of those goslings, L.
Hello Larry,
Thank you for the letter and the compliments. I'm glad to hear that you are doing well.
And right on. I couldn't agree more.
The A.A. insistence on labeling everybody an alcoholic or an addict is just plain wrong.
And it's very harmful. When you keep on calling yourself an alcoholic or an addict
or a compulsive gambler, you will start to believe that you really are that thing,
and that will change your behavior for the worse.
Steven Gaskin once said that the two most important words in the English language are,
"I am..." And he said that you must be extremely careful about what you put after those
two words. As in, "I am an alcoholic." Or, "I am a good person."
You tend to become whatever you believe you are. It's almost magical, how it works.
Such labeling also tends to lead to black-and-white thinking. Like, "Either you are
an alcoholic, or you aren't." "Either you are
a drug addict, or you aren't." That leaves no room for the shades of gray in the middle.
I've heard from a lot of people who just drank too much for a while, and had troubles
with it, and then snapped out of it and became "normal", and drank "normally".
And the same goes for drug users. Heck, I also had short experiences with heroin and
speed. But I wasn't an addict. Just experimenting and learning.
And I learned that I didn't want that damage, and didn't need that kind of grief
in my life.
Declaring that people can't ever recover is obviously wrong. People are
recovering by the millions.
Saying that people can never recover is just a trick to keep people from leaving the cult.
And I can't help but notice the sadistic tendencies of the people who long for the good
old days when they could slam newcomers against the wall and scream at them.
Twelve-step groups are often havens for very sick abusive personalities.
Have a good day and a good life now. And a happy holiday season. == Orange
Last updated 7 March 2013. |
