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[ Link here = http://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters248.html#ANONYMOUS ]
Date: Thu, July 7, 2011 6:13 pm (answered 12 July 2011) Orange, I have been trying to find the salary figures for Phyllis Halliday, GSO general manager and other staff members. Amber Eden is the Managing editor of the AA Grapevine, inc. I believe GSO is non profit. The AA grapevine is supposed to be self supporting through subscriptions, but actually lost $393,000 last year. LaVina the Spanish edition has lost over a million dollars in the past 12 or so years. These losses come directly or indirectly out of our prudent reserve fund. I am sure you know about the trustee set up, I just learned that before Phyllis H was hired to manage GSO in Jan 2009, she was a trustee from the pacific northwest. SHE WAS ON THE AA GRAPEVINE BOARD. Using the "comma which was already in place, the AA Grapevine has become of equal importance to the General Service Office. I have come to believe that headquarters will remain the same. And the groups will never change. We will stumble along for many more decades failing the very suffering alcoholics we are responsible to be helping. Do you have access to the I SAY FORUM AA GRAPEVINE? Recently this was revised. It was formally called the AA GRAPEVINE I SAY FORUM. They tell me that the new site is free but I had to pay $31.97 for a subscription to the ONLINE GRAPEVINE to access it. I have a dozen messages posted. It is not difficult to find which ones are mine. I believe by invoking concept seven and cutting off the money supply may be the only solution. But even that won't work, because "they" will find new and innovative ways to raise the money to support their salaries. In a nutshell, Alcoholics Anonymous has become a strange religious cult at the group level. Our headquarters has become big business. It is so sad. We have taken a fellowship which in my case was very successful, and turned it into a strange religious cultist Fellowship, which causes more harm than good. I do believe that many at headquarters know who I am. Sometimes fear creeps in and I think of just walking away. I am not used to being outwardly critical of anyone. I have always had such a desperate need to have everyone approve of me. What a handicap! I have written hundreds of letters to any address I can find. Do You know that AA's general service board is headed by Ward Ewing, an Episcopal Priest? He is AA's top leader, and dean of some seminary. in New York. Does that make sense, not allied with any sect? I wrote him a couple of years ago, when he wrote an article for the grapevine, titled A VISION FOR US. I questioned the title. Later he referred to A VISION FOR YOU. I emailed a couple of letters this year but he continues to ignore me. His belief is that we need new and more innovative ways to reach the suffering alcoholic. BULL! Fifty years ago Bill W wrote that practically everyone in America has heard of AA. The truth is that what they have heard about AA keeps them from approaching us. And what they have heard is TRUE! Sorry if I keep repeating myself. AA has failed at least six million suffering alcoholics plus their friends and families over the last two decades, by the way meetings are conducted. Hundreds of thousands are still approaching AA every year in spite of our reputation as a religious cult. And we keep pushing them away telling them to Find God and find Him now! That reading of HIW at the beginning of AA meetings was the most horrible blunder we ever made, followed closely by the chanting. I will close with a little attempt to explain the "comma." Perhaps five years ago I was at a meeting and the topic of how much laborious work is performed by our delegates at the conference. She said the conference had spent hours arguing over a simple comma. I forgot about it until years later when I was investigating the distortion of our prudent reserve concept. There may be more than one "comma", but the one I found gives the AA Grapevine access to our prudent reserve emergency savings bank account. One "emergency" was the removal of staples from the Grapevine and the perfect bound finish, which adds considerably to the cost of the magazine. Plus adding the graphics. And now I will close. Anonymous. My daughter updated the computer and explained the downloads and now I can read your mail.
Hello again, ANONYMOUS,
I'm glad to hear that you got your computer problems solved. Now you can read the following stuff.
I don't know anything about the Grapevine Forum. That's a new one to me.
Both the GSO (really, GSB, General Service Board of Alcoholics Anonymous) and AAWS (Alcoholics Anonymous
World Services, Inc.), are non-profits. AAWS used to be a for-profit publishing company
that published and sold the A.A. literature.
AAWS was totally owned by the non-profit GSB.
But some years back, the A.A. leadership decided to quietly change AAWS into a non-profit company,
which conveniently means that they don't pay taxes any more. But that has the downside that now they have to file
public financial documents — Form 990 — which we can read.
And some time or other, the Grapevine became a non-profit too.
We have discussed the finances of the A.A. organization a bunch of times.
See these links:
For those who wish to investigate, all of these Form 990 filings are available:
The ones whose names begin with 2372 are duplicates from another source.
Have a good day now.
== Orange
[ Link here = http://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters248.html#Vernon_L ]
Date: Thu, July 7, 2011 9:14 pm (answered 12 July 2011) OK, fine. How about this one...... What do you feel the odds are that in, say, a hundred years, The AA movement will be essentially a religion? I'm thinkin' that considering human nature it's a high probable, especially if their is another catastrophic event, like a nuke going off in a major city, or an engineered pandemic. I already see a big shift to the Right politically in AA, especially with all the "God talk" one must endure at meetings. Hell, LDS was started by a serial pedophile, and Brigham Young is implicated in the massacre of a wagon train of settlers transiting Utah. Why not Saint Bill and Saint Bob? (I like Bob better)
Hi again, Vernon,
A.A. already is a religion. The only question in my mind is how long it will last.
A.A. is a cult in decline now, so I don't think it will survive in the long run.
I'm sure it will hang on by its fingernails for a while, and will probably fade out about
the same time as Scientology and the Moonies do.
I don't think A.A. will succeed like the Mormons. The thing that did it for the Mormons was the
commandment that thou shalt have all of the children that thou canst possibly have.
Outbreed the competition. All that A.A. has going for it is recruiting the sick people and addicts
and loonies.
That doesn't produce an ever-growing church, especially not when people discover that the claimed
cure doesn't work.
Have a good day now.
== Orange
Date: Fri, July 8, 2011 5:12 am (answered 12 July 2011) Just wanted to say hi, I enjoy reading your website... I have a look at it every few days, have probably read through most of it now... wanted to rattle off a few things that are on my mind, just for the sake of getting some of my thoughts out there. I am a member of a 12 step fellowship (not AA or CA, or a substance misuse fellowship for that matter)... I first joined it about a year ago, and left after a month convinced I didn't need it, but three months later fell back into my old behaviours, so I returned in January this year.... and since returning, whilst I have not been 100% free of my behaviours (though they have drastically reduced in frequency and intensity), I am in a much better frame of mind than I previously was. In all honesty I would rather not be in a 12 step programme to get "clean", and I have tried to find excuses not to go to meetings, but can't stop myself from turning up say, once a week...I just feel that if I don't go and keep talking to folks in the "fellowship", I feel I will end up losing control over my behaviours. I am not fanatical about 12 step stuff though I do do some of the daily "suggestions", the ones that are palatable to me... and I do have a sponsor, but I am not that keen on him (particularly after he advised me to go out and "get" some newcomers last week) but still call him... thankfully he is about 100 miles from me. It's kind of weird, I think this stuff helps despite how cynical I feel about 12 steppism. It's like I read your site, enjoy it more than say, the big book, and have no issue with it because I can see where you are coming from, but I still feel that without getting into daily habits that detract from my previous habits, I don't have much of a chance of getting better. Plus I won't find any other f*cked up people like me in a non-12 step fellowship (I don't think!) Not sure what to do...I guess I am hoping that with time I continue to "recover" and find myself turn out OK, and don't have to rely on the "fellowship" for a future life of happiness... but then at the same time, I would like to continue to help folks that have spent years in the same horrible place that I crawled out of earlier this year... but these people I will probably only find in a fellowship. Horrible catch 22 really. Cheers and have a good day, Tom
Hello Tom,
Thanks for the letter. I'm glad to hear that you are doing better. You know, there is nothing wrong
with getting some moral support and encouragement from a group. That was the whole idea behind
group therapy, which really does help some people, in some cases.
And as long as you can avoid getting brainwashed
into the worst beliefs of Steppism, you might do okay there.
You sound like you have a pretty good take on the situation.
The fear that you will lose control if you don't go to enough meetings does sound suspiciously
like
standard cultish phobia induction. I'd watch out for that.
But otherwise, your group sounds tolerable.
So have a good day and a good life now.
== Orange
Date: Fri, July 8, 2011 2:11 pm (answered 12 July 2011) Who are you Are you telling the truth Why hasnt AA sued you I have been sober for 26 years and give GOD and AA credit for that If you are lieing you must be full of hate and I will pray for you GOD BLESS
Hello w0183,
I am telling the truth. I am not lying. People are dying over this stuff, so somebody has
to tell the truth about what is really going on.
Congratulations on your years of sobriety.
I give you the credit for making that choice.
Nobody else can do it for you.
God Bless you too, and have a good day.
== Orange
Date: Sun, July 10, 2011 5:33 pm (answered 12 July 2011) Out of pure curiosity, are you an alcoholic?
Hello Prosody,
Well, I used to be an alcoholic. I don't think it is entirely accurate to continue to call
myself an alcoholic now, considering that I haven't had a drink in 10 years.
I used to drink far too much; now I don't.
Whenever people ask me if I'm an alcoholic, I have to ask them which definition they mean.
A.A. uses several very different definitions for that word, and mixes them up, which confuses
the issues.
We have talked about this before, so you can
read the various definitions of "alcoholic" here.
Have a good day now.
== Orange
Date: Mon, July 11, 2011 2:13 pm (answered 12 July 2011) Examiner.com Hi there. John thought you would enjoy this article: AA meeting secrets http://link.examiner.com/ThtneGdj2clHAAG0/TfYye8RgiHTZHyGYA0c99
Hi John,
Thanks for the link. Yes, that Kris Best is at it again. What a mess of A.A. slogans
and standard cult characteristics:
Yes, that Kris really drank the koolaid.
Have a good day now.
== Orange
UPDATE: 2013.08.09:
Date: Tue, July 12, 2011 5:36 am (answered 12 July 2011) hello orange i just wanted to tell you i,m going in ive decided to join the NRL and go in to aa as part of the worldwide rescue mission i love the site you are a good brave man . As we have seen throughout history the truth is always supressed but now due to the internet its easier to get the truth out there , ive been left the collective 2 years now and feel better now ive even stopped smoking and taking caffeine i,m proud of myself i give myself full credit for my actions. I will keep you posted on my successes i,m sure there will be many . thankyou for your website yours captain britain
Hello Captain,
Thanks for the compliments, and I'm glad to hear that you are doing well.
Especially the quitting smoking. I'm sure you feel a whole lot better.
So have a good day now.
== Orange
Date: Tue, July 12, 2011 7:34 am (answered 12 July 2011)
Hi John,
Thanks for that link. Yes, that is Scientology at its worst. They demand that Scientologists
"disconnect" from everybody who isn't a Scientologist, even family. And they blackmail people too.
What Scientology calls "auditing" is telling everything about yourself, every dirty little secret,
while holding a couple of tin cans that are connected to a lie detector (that they call an "E-meter").
The "auditor" writes down all of those secrets in a file that can later be used to blackmail
the victim if he choses to leave Scientology, or worse, denounce it.
There really ought to be a law.
Have a good day now.
== Orange
Date: Wed, July 13, 2011 3:04 pm (answered 15 July 2011) On a side note, if your religion is so bad you choose your _ex-wife_ (no matter how amicable you are with them) over the religion, your religion has issues.
Oh, so true. It reminds me of those corny vaudeville Henny Youngman jokes about wives, "Take my wife. Please!"
Except that now it's
"Take my cult religion. Please!"
"I was given a choice between Scientology and my mother-in-law. I chose my mother-in-law. She only
nags me half of the time."
Have a good day now.
== Orange
Date: Wed, July 13, 2011 6:23 am (answered 14 July 2011) The latest phase in my deprogramming went off without a hitch. I went to a bar with a work colleague last night. It must be my first time in a bar, in the evening time, in a long time. Nothing happened. The bottles behind the bar didn't start talking to me and telling me to drink, drink, drink. My "powerlessness" didn't overwhelm me and compell me to imbibe alcohol against my will. I have a choice to drink or not to drink. I always did. It is amazing how deep the false beliefs of AA can embed themselves in your psyche, how much fear of alcohol and drinkers and drinking situations endless AA meetings instilled in me. I think it is a false fear. I must say that I did feel a bit awkward ordering a sparkling water in a bar, I feel like a bit of a pussy, but if anyone says anything smart to me, my response shall be either "I am the designated driver" or "Mind your own f--king business". I don't think being a non-drinker in a bar is as big a deal as I have made it in my own mind. People have lots of reasons for not drinking, at any particular time, a barman isn't going to automatically assume that you are a self-diagnosed alcoholic who is brainwashed by a repackaged 1930's cult religion. Most people don't care whether you drink or not. People who do care that you are a non-drinker, need to look at themselves first. I have a lot of regret and sadness about the missed opportunities for socialising that I have experienced, because of my fear and holier-than-thou attitude towards drinking and drinkers. I live in Ireland, the pub is a very big part of the social scene here,if you stay away from pubs, you miss out on a lot. I had more fun in one night out last night, than I did at 100 mind-numbing AA indoctrination sessions ("meetings"). There is a huge opportunity cost involved with AA membership. You miss out on so much, not just on the time that is wasted attending the same religious service for the umpteenth time. Fear of women is a big issue for me too. I was taught in AA that "under every skirt is a slip" and that getting involved with a woman before I had completed the 12 steps would very likely lead to a relapse and that putting a relationship with a woman before my commitment to AA would lead to unspecified but dire consequences. The fear that the 12-step way of life induces creates a very small world within which to live. Overcoming these fears is not easy and takes time.
Keep on rocking
Hello Tom,
Thanks for the letter, and congratulations on your sobriety, and your victories.
I remember the first time that I went into a bar after I had quit drinking. I had several months
of sobriety by then. I was just walking up the street,
and there was a restaurant that had outdoor speakers, and there was an incredibly beautiful song playing, sung in
Spanish by some woman whom I didn't recognize. So I walked in and asked one of the waitresses what that
music was. She was very nice about it, but explained that she would
have to go ask some guy as soon as she could
get a free minute from serving her customers. I waited. All around me, people were eating and drinking
at their tables. And there was the bar, with all of the bottles of liquor lined up in a gigantic display.
I saw it all. I felt a little apprehensive, but didn't do anything except wait. Finally, the waitress came
back and said that it was Lhasa de Sela. I went to the library and checked out a couple of her albums,
and it was worth the wait.
What I learned from that is that I also won't just flip out if I walk into a bar and see all of the bottles.
I am not powerless over alcohol, either.
I don't make a habit of hanging out in bars, but I won't instantly die if I walk into one.
About not drinking in the presence of drinkers, I have several favorite lines:
The interesting thing is that the times they are a'changin'.
Nowadays, lots of people think you are smart if you don't drink alcohol, not a weirdo.
It seems that the "smart drug" attitude
has kind of worn off on other people. Lots of people who don't even know what "smart drugs" really are
have still learned the idea that it's smart to not poison your brain with alcohol, which is, after all,
a pretty low-quality drug, when you come right down to it.
By the way, "smart drugs" aren't really drugs; they are
more like cocktails of vitamins and amino acids and other stuff like that.
I've never gotten into them myself, but I do take lots of vitamins regularly.
They help with the recovery. Especially get lots of B vitamins, which the brain needs for repairing itself
and growing some new brain cells.
About the socializing, I totally agree. I remember a Baptist preacher who was quite candid,
saying that somebody told him, "Reverend, I find more brotherly love in the bar on Saturday night than
in the church on Sunday morning."
Yep. And you don't have to deprive yourself of that. Just keep a grip on yourself, which you seem to
be doing quite well.
Personally, I can't enjoy the bar or pub scene, because when I see people drunk, it's just too painful to
watch. It brings back a lot of old memories, and old feelings that I'd rather not get into.
So I go do other things.
Have a good day now, and a good life.
== Orange
[ Link here = http://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters248.html#Tom_M2 ]
Date: Thu, July 14, 2011 11:33 am (answered 15 July 2011) Woohoo. I just found some more cult rubbish masquerading as effective treatment for serious conditions. Grow <http://www.grow.ie/>, which purports to be a World Community Mental Health Movement in Ireland, uses a variation on the twelve steps <http://www.grow.ie/steps.html>.
If you look toward the end of this webpage I also like the bit on the HSE webpage about depression medication, "They can improve your mood, help you to sleep and reduce anxiety and agitation. " I could just as easily say, with equal certainty, that "Listening to Brahms can improve your mood, help you to sleep and reduce anxiety and agitation." And I am not aware of any documented side-effects to listening to Brahms. And I am aware of lots of documented side-effects to taking anti-depressants. My latest reading is about anti-depressants, I have read two excellent books lately, The Emperors New Drugs by Irvine Kirsch and Manufacturing Depression by Gary Greenberg They have really helped me to learn more and think more clearly about my past history. The first book is also a huge help in understanding how important double-blinded, placebo-controlled, randomized clinical trials are when determining whether drugs really work.
All the best
Hi again, Tom,
Thanks for the input.
I didn't know about that quackery in Ireland. It doesn't surprise me though. The true believers never
rest in their campaign to spread their goofy religious beliefs far and wide.
They have convinced themselves that they are doing people a big favor, even saving the world,
by spreading the practices of Dr. Frank Buchman's cult religion everywhere.
They are of course crazy.
I have really mixed feelings about the use of tranquilizers.
I am not against tranquilizers or psychiatric medications. They really do help
some people to get through life, and are a good thing for them. But if somebody is just gobbling
tranquilizers as a simplistic solution to bad feelings, then that's just another addiction.
Obviously, some people simply substitute tranquilizers for alcohol, and don't change much else in
their lives, and don't get their lives straightened out. That isn't good.
A confounding factor is that some people cannot be fixed. Some people have such messed up brains
that they cannot survive in the real world without chemical help. In the bad old days, such
people were confined to mental institutions. Today, they can live free, with the help of medications.
I'm still quite opposed to doctors just handing out tranquilizers like chicken feed and over-medicating people.
If people can fix what's broken and live without tranquilizers, then I think they are better off.
But some people just can't, you know.
About the double-blind, placebo-controlled, randomized clinical trials:
Guess what kind of test A.A. has failed every time? Every time A.A. was fairly tested in a randomized
controlled study,
it failed to sober up the alcoholics.
To be nit-pickingly accurate, it is not possible to do a double-blind test of Alcoholics Anonymous.
A double-blind test requires that neither the patients nor the doctors know whether the patients
are getting the real medicine or a placebo. (Another doctor or pharmacist puts the pills in the
patients' pill bottles, and only he knows who is getting what, and he doesn't tell until the test
is over.)
The patients would have to all be blind and deaf to not know whether they were in an A.A. meeting.
And the placebo is another question. The best I ever heard of on the subject of placebos
was the Patty-Cake Treatment Program.
That's about the closest thing that I ever heard of to a placebo-controlled clinical test of A.A.
The way that I heard it, some university professor was noticing just how ineffective A.A.-based
treatment was, so he decided to test it. He divided some alcoholics into two groups. One group got A.A., and
the other group got meetings where they started the meeting by playing Patty-Cake. Then they spent the
rest of the hour talking about sports, news, celebrity gossip, or whatever the heck they wanted to talk about.
The results were that the patty-cake group got the same success rate as the A.A. group.
A friend commented that he thought the Patty-Cake program would produce real positive effects, because
it offered group identification, socializing, encouragement, and mutual trust.
The fact that they could get together and trust each other enough to play patty-cake indicated a lot
of openness and trust, he said. He might be right.
Oh well, have a good day.
== Orange
Date: Thu, July 14, 2011 8:08 am (answered 15 July 2011) Saying 12 step programs have a 90%-100% failure rate makes me think you have never researched anything regarding your claim with your own found information. Maybe the lay person will be convinced, but anyone with ACTUAL knowledge (unlike yourself) will see through your gimmick. As of September 2011, I will be clean 15 years because of NA. Hundreds, if not thousands, of people I know (far greater than your claimed 0%-5%), from NA and AA meetings, in several states, are still clean/sober. So, where are you getting this information from? If you want to make claims, back them up with actual statistics, not implied statistics. You will look more credible. These programs have saved many lives. I only hope that no one reads your farce and dies because they believed you, and decided not to go to a meeting.
Hello Christopher,
Thanks for the letter. I am not lying or writing a "gimmick".
I have done a lot of research on the subject, and backed up my statements with the reports
from real medical doctors who conducted the tests of A.A.-based treatment.
But 5% per year is the normal rate of spontaneous remission in alcoholics —
what Dr. Vaillant called "the natural history of alcoholism".
That's how many alcoholics recover on their own, without any "treatment"
or "support group". A.A. cannot claim the credit for those
recoveries, no matter whether they attend some A.A. meetings or not,
and Dr. Vaillant clearly said that. So 5 minus 5 equals zero, the real A.A. recovery rate.
When you try to claim that N.A. made you clean and sober, that is an example of the propaganda tricks
of Proof by Anecdote
and
Testimonials and Stories.
It's just the same as Tom Cruise claiming that Scientology fixed his mind and saved him from the
nasty Evil Galactic Overlord Xenu, while he jumps up and down on the couch, and says that Scientology
knows more about the human mind than all of the psychiatrists in the world.
Do you really believe that Tom Cruise's testimonials prove that Scientology is a wonderful organization
that has all of the answers to mental illness and drug addiction?
That's the problem with testimonials: they don't really prove anything other than the fact that the speaker
really likes his own church or cult or organization.
You are also Confusing Correlation and Causation. A bunch of people who
are sick and tired of being sick and tired from drugs and alcohol get together and talk, and a few
of them do actually quit their addictions, and stay quit, and then you assume that the cause was the talk meeting and maybe some
old cult religion practices from the nineteen-thirties. Not so.
The real cause of the recovery is that some people finally wise up and decide not to die that way.
They are not "powerless" over drugs or alcohol or "their addiction".
They can quit, and eventually, about half of them do.
Congratulations on your 15 years of clean and sober living. It is good that you used your
own intelligence to decide not to kill yourself with drugs and alcohol, and then you used your will power
and strength to quit and stay quit. The 12-Step quackery had nothing to do with it, and nobody did it for you.
Lastly, you asked me for statistics. Okay, I've showed you mine. Now can I see yours?
What is the real Narcotics Anonymous success rate? If we send 1000 drug addicts to N.A., how many of them
will be clean and sober a year later? Two years? Five years? Twenty years?
I have the numbers for Alcoholics Anonymous
here.)
Have a good day now.
== Orange
Date: Thu, July 14, 2011 6:24 am (answered 15 July 2011) "Hi Orange Hope alls well.. I noticed a few letters talk about the sinclair method.. I know you like research and I highly recommend the book... Its called The Cure For Alcoholism by Dr Roy Eskapa.. You have to buy it from ebay or amazon and its around £11 english pounds.. Its a very interesting read and offers real solutions to the problem of addiction but of course you see the age old question of why haven't we heard of this before.. Sinclair explains in his book which surprise surprise Money is the main factor.. This treatment could not only offer hope and save lifes but could totally transform the recovery industry once the word is out there fully.. I,m trying to get Drs or perscribers to look at it in my home town.. Take care orange and keep up the great work dude :D.. PS the best thing as well is that its developed by real science and real medicine and has passed over 70 clinical trials each boasting up to 80% success.. Thats gotta be summert to shout about.. Take care Now .... JAmie :D "
Hi Jamie,
Thanks for the note. I'll check that out.
Have a good day now.
== Orange
[ Link here = http://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters248.html#xx ]
Date: Fri, July 15, 2011 2:04 pm
Jamie wrote:
Date: Thu, July 14, 2011 10:51 pm (answered 16 July 2011) The sooner the better! We can all do our part by spreading the word about the horrors of the 12 step cult insanity, I sure do. I am very glad people like you keep pumping the message out, and no site does it better than yours. I still only get to your site every few months just to make sure it's still going because the day it isn't I will make sure it's mirrored. I am alcohol free and I never think about the vile brew at all anymore and haven't for years, nor do I think about "sobriety" either which is nothing but the even more destructive addiction to cult practices. Looking back, if I had to choose between a slow death by alcohol or the living hell of life immersed in the 12 steps I would happily choose the path to death through alcohol than the supposed "life" found in AA. Luckily, those aren't our only choices! We must continue to hammer into the numb skulls out there that they have options! Choose life!
Hello James,
Thanks for the letter and the compliments. And congratulations on your sobriety
You make a lot of good points. About the last one: it seems that some people really do decide to die rather
than stay sober by practicing the 12 Steps. Some people are that repulsed by the cult religion.
I think that was one of the things that Charles Bufe noticed in one of his books.
And of course Dr. George Vaillant also documented the fact that
A.A. actually raised the death rate in his patients.
Fortunately, as you said, we have a third choice: happy recovery, a life without either A.A. or alcohol.
So have a good day and a good life now.
Orange
Last updated 9 August 2013. |
