[ Link here = http://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters316.html#Avo ]

Hi Orange,

Notice the attached documents. These two letters were in the library archive online. Note that Bill W. is writing Dr. Bob about money. It's perfectly clear that he is using hundreds (thousands) of dollars that belong to the struggling Alcoholic Foundation for personal use like his mortgage, etc. He also suggest that Dr. Bob participate in the thievery as well.

Another interesting point is the discussion about Dr. Bob's "sickness" and Bill's suggestion that he get away from the AA groups and stay with him for a while. This was well before the cancer and I'm wonder if he wanted Bob to come dry out?

I thought that you could use this in your research. I think that this being in your possession would allow for more people to see it.

I hope you are well and enjoying retirement. Take care!

~Avo

Hi Orange,

There are a few juicy letters in the library archive. The one attached, for example, is from Bill W. to "Gerig". Notice how Bill thanks him for the "thoughtful gift" which appears to be acceptance of money for offering him/her a "happy recovery". The insidious thief also claims that it was a struggle to accept it.

My Best,
~Avo

Attached letters:

1. 1941_Letter_Bill_W._To_Dr._Bob.jpg
2. 1941_Letter_Bill_W._To_Dr._Bob_2.jpg
3. 1945_Bill_W._to_Gerig.jpg

Hello Avo,

Thank you very much. I love to get historical documents like that. They are undeniable evidence.

Like you said, the first letter is a real eye-opener:

The question we raise is this — why do you come to Bedford Hills for three days when you should come for three weeks or three months?

Now it is possible that Bill Wilson was just being friendly, and wanting Dr. Bob to stay for a long visit, but on the other hand, it sure does sound like a detoxing session, doesn't it?

The rest of the first letter, talking about how Bill Wilson made trips around the country to cajole new groups to "support the Vesey Street office", is revealing.

At the same time, Bill Wilson was taking a "swipe" at the back royalties that were owed to Dr. Bob, asking him to sign over $300 that Dr. Bob desperately needed, was outrageous. And sign it over to Lois? Why Lois? What kind of money laundering was that? Was Bill Wilson trying to cover up his chicanery?

And then Bill was planning to take another $500 out of the book receipts two months later, and Bill would get either $300 or $500 of it, depending on whether Dr. Bob had cashed his $200 check. So, either way, by late October, Dr. Bob got $500, and Bill Wilson got $1000. Bill Wilson sure did have his hand in the cookie jar, didn't he?

By the way, those were 1941 dollars. Multiply those numbers by 14 or 15 to get an idea of what that much money would be worth now. (One handy inflation calculator is http://www.westegg.com/inflation/.)

Of course, neither Bill Wilson nor Dr. Bob was entitled to a penny in royalties. The original agreement — the stock prospectus — said that Bill Wilson would get $1000 for writing the opening chapters of the Big Book, and the copyright would belong to The 100 Men Corporation, and the royalties would go to the Alcoholic Foundation.

But Bill managed to rearrange that to his own advantage, didn't he? — Like by stealing the copyright, and registering the book in his own name, claiming that he was the sole author, and that he owned a sole proprietorship publishing company called "Works Publishing". Which means that the copyright on the Big Book is invalid, and always has been.

Then Bill Wilson cut Dr. Bob in on the stolen money. Dr. Bob's daughter, Sue Smith Windows, said that Dr. Bob urged the other A.A. members not to make a fuss about Bill Wilson's dishonesty, "for the good of the fellowship." Oh yeh.

I also noticed that Bill Wilson mentioned the World-Telegram newspaper article twice, and had high hopes for it increasing the membership and sales of the Big Book. A program of "attraction, not promotion", huh? Yeh, right.

What is curious there is that Bill Wilson was hoping that his New York group would increase in size to that of Cleveland. What? Do you mean that Clarence Snyder over in Cleveland was a better A.A. recruiter than Bill Wilson? — The Clarence Snyder who was really one of the co-founders of Alcoholics Anonymous — and he even invented the "Alcoholics Anonymous" name — but he got none of the credit, and the A.A. headquarters staff even purged Clarence Snyder's story from the fourth edition of the Big Book because Snyder dared to criticize Saint Bill Wilson's financial dishonesty. Clarence Snyder is now an A.A. "non-person". Ah, Stalin-like rewrites of history. Isn't it wonderful?

Then Bill Wilson ended the letter by talking about Dr. Bob's health:

We wish you would tell us what there is to these reports we get about your health. I don't like them a bit. And if they are true why in heaven's name don't you come down here for a good long stay with us? We are pretty well insulated from the A.A. at Bedford Hills when we want to be. Opinion is unanimous out your way that you are going to get damn sick unless you let up. I beg of you Bob to drop that situation out there for as long as necessary.

Now that is very odd. It sounds like Bill Wilson was saying that A.A. activities were destroying Dr. Bob's health. How could that be? What is so damaging about going to A.A. meetings, or going to the hospital and recruiting new members? Why did Dr. Bob have to get away from "that situation"? What situation was that?

And notice how Bill Wilson said that he was "insulated from the A.A. at Bedford Hills". Oh really? The founder shuns A.A. meetings? What was the point of that? Why was that an advantage for Dr. Bob's health?

And how could living with Bill Wilson for a year improve Dr. Bob's health? What disease could Bill Wilson treat? After all, Dr. Bob was the doctor, not Bill Wilson. Strange, very strange.

The guess that maybe Dr. Bob was surreptitiously drinking, and Bill Wilson wanted to sober him up, again, is a reasonable one. What other, better, explanation is there? I cannot think of any other reason why living with Bill Wilson for three months or a year would improve Dr. Bob's health.

Yes, a very interesting letter. Thank you.

Now the second letter, to "Gerig": Yes, Bill Wilson was taking gifts and contributions. No doubt about it:

Every now and then someone sends me such a remembrance and each time I'm a little puzzled what to do with the funds. Money in connection with "AA" has always been a delicate subject.

Oh what a load of bull. Bill Wilson had no problem spending money on his expensive house in the country, or his Cadillac car, or his mistresses. "Gee, I'm puzzled about what to do with the funds. I'm so embarrassed to have so much money in my hands." Yeh, right.

By the way, "the farm that we have for AAs down here" was actually owned by Bill Wilson. So he was really suggesting donating $25 to his own property while making it sound like he was generously supporting a charity project for detoxing alcoholics.

Likewise, donating the money to "The Alcoholic Foundation" sounds unselfish, until you remember that "supporting Bill Wilson in the style to which he would like to become accustomed" was the biggest "office expense" of the Alcoholic Foundation.

Oh what a tangled web we weave when first we practice to deceive.

Thanks again for the documents. And have a good day now.

== Orange

*             orange@orange-papers.info        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     Many of the demons of the darkness pretend to be creatures of the light.
**     Some of them are so dishonest that they have even fooled themselves into
**     believing that they are creatures of the light, and on the side of what
**     is true and right.  You can discover what they really are by shining the
**     light of truth on them, and seeing if they immediately scurry into the
**     shadows like cockroaches.

May 11, 2012, Friday: The Fernhill Wetlands The Family of 6 The baby of the family is lower center. 5 of the Family of 6 The baby of the family is lower right. 5 of the Family of 6 The baby of the family is lower right. The Family of 6 The baby of the family is lower center. Hogging the Oats The gosling who is sitting down is sitting right on top of the pile of rolled oats. That's one way to hog the pile and save it for later. [More gosling photos below, here.]

[ Link here = http://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters316.html#Pamela_M ]

Date: Sun, July 8, 2012 7:11 pm     (answered 10 July 2012)
From: "Pamela McR."
Subject:

You have no idea what youare talking about. Get rid of your resentments and start working the steps. You are very sick

Hello Pamela,

Actually, I really like my resentments and I plan to keep them.

I have resentments against all kinds of creeps, like

1. Fake healers who foist quackery on sick people and lie to them about how well it works.
2. Phony holy men who lie to seekers in the name of God.
3. Sexual predators who exploit under-age girls.
4. Cult leaders who exploit and mislead people who are trying to improve their lives.
5. Politicians who lie us into unnecessary wars.
6. Wall Street criminals who make billions by stealing Grandma's house.
7. Corrupt Congressmen who give the national treasury to the Wall Street criminals.

== Orange

*             orange@orange-papers.info        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     Bill Wilson and Dr. Bob never got their thinking out of the
**     Middle Ages, and they seemed to resent anybody else who had.

[ Link here = http://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters316.html#A_White ]

Date: Mon, July 9, 2012 8:36 am     (answered 10 July 2012)
From: "A_White."
Subject: I feel for you...

It sure is funny that all which you tout as true here is as pertinent to your own attack on AA. This publicized attack is littered with half truths and ignorance. and a heaping helping of hatred. The latter is as plain easy to see as is the Sun in a morning sky, or the stars on a clear night.

I've hated before. Hated people estabilishments and life inm tgeneral for decades. I'm quite doubtful I've ever hated anything as vehemently as you do AA. Maybe. No. I haven't. I've kept my resentments to myself.

Establishing a website dedicated to erode confidence in AA, and further, to place a bar in front of it, no. I've not hated anyone that much. Of that I'm sure, and I held one hatred for 43 years. I've even hated God! And told Him so!

Just as a 5 year old who wants something their parent (s) wont' or can't give them and they say in their own misery, "I hate you!" as the result. Do you think Mom & or Dad kicks them to the curb for voicing their anger? Or thereafter, sends them off to play outside and while they're gone, changes the locks on the doors? No. They forgive them for it as they are just children. I think God has a far greater capacity for love then do human beings.

I thought you should know of, or at least have a shot at seeing a different face of AA than the one you espouse so publicly and so incorrectly. That heading of your's from the Bigger Big Book, is exactly what you, yourself have accomplished with this web site. You have created an atrocity.

You've woven many of your own vipers around some selfserving half truths.

As you can always spot an alcoholic but are unable to tell (convince) them of most anything, so it goes with alcoholics. It's also why it is so important that ANY and EVERY alcoholic make that particular call of being an alcoholic, for themselves. Like you, they won't believe anyone else.

When a person is ordered to jump from a burning building onto a safety net as the only way to save their lives, and they do not, exactly whose fault is it then? Ultimately, accountability and responsibility is the individuals sole province. Placing blame thereafter is only a game for those who do not or can not be honest about the situation at hand.

The oddest part about that is this. the overwhelming majority of alkies already know if they are drunks or not. They merely refuse to admit it to themselves deep down. That's called acceptance. That.is the ONLY way a psychic change can begin to materialize within one's mind. It's that way with religion too. Everrything begins in the brain. All changes start there. No matter the scheme, theology, ideology, or conviction, all begin exactly the same way, in our thoughts.

Do I want to be a Prodestant, Pentacostal, Methodist, or Moslem? Unlike Judism, we have the choice as it isn't our birthright to be claimed by it/them.

As with this ludicrous effort you've spent enormous energy on, your errant disgraceful bent towards AA began in your own mind first. Via prejudices, fear, or merely the need to blame someone for something, that's how you gave this vengeful derogatory, and misleading tale of yours life. By having a deep seated resentment and then being it's tip of the spear.

Killing a person is easy enough to do. Killing an idea? Well, good luck with that one sport. It's sheer folly. Only dysfunctional or diminished prospects will align themselves with such wrongful edicts.

Hurt people hurt people. In their own disgust and maybe a good bit of self pity for motivation, they blindly jab and swing out trying to inflict as much hurt as they feel towards othere's or towards the crux of their own ire yet without any tangible relief coming back towards their own affairs. Peace will never be theirs.

It's revolting. Bashedly, shameful. Not to mention a huge waste of time and energy.

You have filter in a few out of context facts or simple details along the way and allow them to serve your purpose by adding falsehoods to accompany them. You've built a house of cards here and indeed may well be killing people along the way by so doing.

I'm alive today and sober these 13 years as the direct result of a loving God which in fact AA enabled me to reacquaint myself with. Which God you and I serve are easily different Gods, that is plain enough.

Someday you and I shall meet as all mankind will when we are judged for what we have wrought in our lives. I pray by then you will have foumnd your way and it will begin as with all things do, within your own mind. If you allow it to take root you very well may find acceptance and with the ability to accept, and a modicum of honesty, you might just find forgiveness. Live and let live is one tenant of AA. it's quite a good one too. One you haven't yet fitted into your quiver. Your arrows all possess the stench of rancor, anger, fear, and hatred, and the aroma of unforgiveness. That too is evident.

.but then isn't compassion and forgiveness spiritual tenants as well? Even religious ones? I didn't see where you quoted Bill W. as directing AA's towards implementing religious traits and tendencies into their own quiver for finding their way to God again. He did you know. Trust me, it's in the AA text book in black and white.

I wonder too if God keeps us accountable for those lives we destroy which we don't even know? Never have met? Haven't even seen personally? I hope for your sake He Does not.

your web site, if it isn't immediately killing folks, it sure isn't aiding their journey to find Him.

See that's the thing about hatred. People despise it when it is openly displayed, even if and when they themselves are filled with it. It's distasteful. Offputting. It smacks of evil doing. Consequently, the hateful devotee who casts the slings and arrows of abhorrence towards this or that, often gets despised and has the aroma of incredulity. That is of course to those with any degree of intelligence at all. The purveyor of mistruths & half truths IS SEEN AS LITTLE MORE THAN SOME IDIOT ON A HATE FILLED RANT!

I pray more and more see you for what you are. someone who is blinded by their own rage and or the possibility that whatever axe they have to grind with some path for recovery they could not abide, or were not willing to follow, is an axe of worthlessness, and self inflicted suffering. That it comes from a person who is quite incapable of forgiveness.

I'd not be so quick to be judging a program by it's fellowship. Not any more, that is. There is a difference, I've known people in church which I don't feel are living the doctrines and dogma they say they subscribe too. should I then discount and rail the Church itself? That would be ridiculous. Foolish. I'd be stupid to make a viable program or process so accountable.

There are a number of paths to God. AA is just one more. In fact, from one source of over 40 years of quality sobriety I've heard him say, "AA is all about God." The Co founder of AA, Dr Bob S. was quoted as saying "if you boil AA down to it's most basic components, it is all about Love, and Service."

AA has never failed anyone. but people, as people will, do fail AA. Do not look unfavorably upon any people, culture, race, religion, or politic because of the acts of a few or the one. To do this is to , exhibit one's own ignorance, and if evil lives anywhere on Earth, it lives in our ignorance and those things I know which simply are not so.

I'll say this and close, as you enjoy posting chapter and verse from the Bible, have you ever read or heard this verse? "

Our Father, Who art in Heaven, Hallowed be Thy name... forgive us our trespasses, "AS WE FORGIVE those who trespass aginst us.. "

I ask God for forgiveness, equal to the forgiveness I give to other people, places, and things for having harmed me. it's always going to be the people actually. Only they can do harm to me. Their program, their devotions, their Church, or their subscription to a suggested path for rehabilitation can not TOUCH me.

Aren't acts of vengeance God's own province? Always check the motive behind the motive friend, there always is one hiding back there. It takes fearlessness and honesty to find it however. I can disguise or ignore it altogether, but it ever remains the true one. This veil of your's is so easy to see, and how pitiful it really is. I feel sorry for you.

Find some Forgiveness, it's a bonafide step towards finding peace. If you do not, you seal your own fate with God. Isn't that what it's all about anyhow? Being free. Having peace & contentment. Helping others.

These are what AA has taught me thru the years as the right things to do.

If God speaks to us, it is in the language of the heart, and love is the only universal language that I know. Aren't we supposed to love our neighbor as ourself? Turn the other cheek? Forgive them as we want to be forgiven? Let it gho man. It's just wrong.

Be well,

A. White.

Hello A. White,

Thank you for the letter. Alas, what is missing from that letter is any actual facts like, "What is the real A.A. cure rate? How many lives does A.A. really save, as opposed to how many people does A.A. miseducate about alcohol abuse?"

That is what matters. Your opinion of my writings has absolutely nothing to do with the A.A. success rate. So how many live, and how many die in A.A.?

Then, to comment on just a few of your statements:

1. What you call "having hatred" is not necessarily a bad thing, just like how "having a resentment" against evil things is not necessarily bad.

2. "Placing a bar" before A.A. is not a bad thing, when you consider how many people A.A. harms with misinformation and cultish guilt induction.

3. This is one of the standard A.A. put-downs of alcoholics:

   "As you can always spot an alcoholic but are unable to tell (convince) them of most anything, so it goes with alcoholics."
   

   A.A. claims that it wants to "reduce the stigma of alcoholism", but they actually work to increase it by constantly harping on how bad alcoholics really are. See the file The "Us Stupid Drunks" Conspiracy for much more on that.

4. This is a dodge:

   When a person is ordered to jump from a burning building onto a safety net as the only way to save their lives, and they do not, exactly whose fault is it then? Ultimately, accountability and responsibility is the individuals sole province. Placing blame thereafter is only a game for those who do not or can not be honest about the situation at hand.

   You are assuming that A.A. is not foisting quackery on sick people. The net that firemen hold out is a real help. The cult religion that A.A. members hold out is something completely different. A.A. does not offer a safety net; it offers Dr. Frank Buchman's old pro-Nazi cult religion from the nineteen-thirties.

   Of course sobriety is ultimately an individual person's choice — especially since the A.A. teachings about being "powerless over alcohol" are untrue. That is why A.A. does not deserve the credit for the few people who chose to quit drinking while attending A.A. meetings. The individual people do it themselves.

5. This is another A.A. stereotype of "the alcoholic":

   The oddest part about that is this. the overwhelming majority of alkies already know if they are drunks or not. They merely refuse to admit it to themselves deep down.

   Again, A.A. is saying that alcoholics are dishonest and unrealistic. That is not necessarily true. Alcoholics are not all alike. I, for instance, knew I was an alcoholic and said so. I was not "in denial". I just drank too much to kill the pain from how sick I was.

6. RE:

   You have filter in a few out of context facts or simple details along the way

   We have discussed that again and again. And again here, just recently. Quoting things in the Big Book or other "council-approved" literature is not "quoting out of context".

   To quote out of context is taking just bits and pieces of something in a manner that changes the meaning of the words. I am very careful not to do that. At times, I quote whole paragraphs or even whole pages so that there is no confusion about what the text is saying.

   Trying to reject all quotes that you don't like by claiming that they are "taken out of context" is just another propaganda trick. Politicians use that one every time they get caught in a lie or a flip-flop.

7. RE:

   I'm alive today and sober these 13 years as the direct result of a loving God which in fact AA enabled me to reacquaint myself with. Which God you and I serve are easily different Gods, that is plain enough.

   So you think that the A.A. God is waiting on you hand and foot and saving your life while he ignores millions of sick and starving children on the other side of the planet? Can you explain how you rate so highly in God's list of priorities?

8. Live and let live is one tenant of AA. it's quite a good one too.

   Yes, and how about not foisting lies and quackery on sick people? How about really helping them to get better? How about giving them something better than cult religion, so that they can really live? A.A. does not do that.

9. RE:

   I didn't see where you quoted Bill W. as directing AA's towards implementing religious traits and tendencies into their own quiver for finding their way to God again.

   Bill Wilson said all kinds of things. He was on both sides of most all important issues. On the one hand he said that you had to "find God", and on the other hand he said that you did not have to believe in God. And I quoted all of it.

   Remember that we deal with alcohol — cunning, baffling, powerful! Without help it is too much for us. But there is One who has all power — that One is God. May you find Him now!
   The Big Book, 3rd Edition, William G. Wilson, Into Action, pages 58-59.

   Once more: The alcoholic at certain times has no effective mental defense against the first drink. Except in a few rare cases, neither he nor any other human being can provide such a defense. His defense must come from a Higher Power.
   The Big Book, 3rd Edition, Chapter 3, More About Alcoholism, page 43.

   When we became alcoholics, crushed by a self-imposed crisis we could not postpone or evade, we had to fearlessly face the proposition that either God is everything or else He is nothing. God either is, or He isn't. What was our choice to be?
   The Big Book, 3rd Edition, William G. Wilson, We Agnostics, Page 53.

   But then Bill also wrote:

   Alcoholics Anonymous does not demand that you believe anything. All of its Twelve Steps are but suggestions.
   Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions, William G. Wilson, page 26.

   And you know that I quoted all of that stuff. You complained about me "taking it out of context".

   There are several bait-and-switch tricks involved in Bill Wilson's promotion of his religion:

   1. Shifting objectives: First the goal is to quit drinking, and then the goal is to "acquire faith" and "come to believe" in Bill Wilson's religion.

   2. First, A.A. tells you that "A.A. requires no beliefs," but then you have to believe everything they tell you, and have blind faith in the proclamations of Bill Wilson.

   3. First, prospective new members are offered a tolerant, open-minded "spiritual" program, but then they get narrow-minded demands for belief in Bill Wilson's teachings.

   4. First, you can keep your own religion, and then you can't.

   5. First, A.A. is completely compatible with Christianity, then it isn't.

   6. First it's "Surrender to God" and then it's "surrender to some A.A. members".

   7. First, it's "any God as you understand Him", and then it's "You don't understand God. You are 'confused' and 'prejudiced'."

   8. First, declarations of Religious Freedom, and then demands for Religious Conformity.

   9. First, a loosely-defined "Higher Power", and then an explicitly-defined "God".

   10. Redefine God. First you get one God, then you get a different God.

10. RE:

    I wonder too if God keeps us accountable for those lives we destroy which we don't even know? Never have met? Haven't even seen personally? I hope for your sake He Does not.
    

    I would like to think that there was some karmic justice somewhere in this cosmos. In that case, A.A. has hell to pay for all of the people that they have harmed with Frank Buchman's cult dogma.

11. RE:

    your web site, if it isn't immediately killing folks, it sure isn't aiding their journey to find Him.
    

    Actually, I've gotten a lot of letters from people who say that my web site did help them.

    Admittedly, they usually say that their goal was to save their own lives by getting clean and sober. They were not looking for a "journey to find Him." Again, that is the A.A. bait-and-switch trick:
    Shifting objectives: First the goal is to quit drinking, and then the goal is to "acquire faith" and "come to believe" in Bill Wilson's religion.

12. RE:

    I'd not be so quick to be judging a program by it's fellowship. Not any more, that is. There is a difference,
    

    That is the standard A.A. trick of "the real A.A.". When I point out the faults of the A.A. program or organization, they argue, "That isn't the real A.A. The real A.A. is something else."

    • First, the real A.A. is what Bill Wilson and Dr. Bob created. They are considered the Saints of A.A., and their teachings are allegedly The Message From God. A.A. members reverently read As Bill Sees It out loud at meetings.

    • But then, when you point out what sick insane men Bill Wilson and Dr. Bob really were, the A.A. promoters claim that the A.A. program is the 12 Steps and the Big Book.

    • When you point out what insane Buchmanite nonsense is in the Book, and how the 12 Steps are really just the cult practices of Dr. Frank Buchman, then the "real A.A." is The Fellowship.

    • When you point out how many con artists, psychopaths, and rapists make up the Fellowship, they claim that the real A.A. is the corporation whose headquarters is in the Interchurch Center in New York City.

    • Then, when you point out what crimes that corporation has been committing lately, the A.A. true believers insist that the real A.A. is the teachings of Bill Wilson and Dr. Bob.

    Baloney. It's all really A.A.

    Now you are arguing that the "real A.A." is "the program", not the creeps who make up "the fellowship".
    • Well, when a young woman goes to A.A. and has a criminal trying to get into her pants, rather than help her to live clean and sober, that is the real A.A. for her.

    • And when a crazy sponsor tells a sick person not to take his doctor-prescribed medications and a psychotic breakdown results, that is the real A.A. for him.

    • And when people get fed cult religion rather than any real help in quitting addictions, that is the real A.A. for them.

13. Then there is this:

    There are a number of paths to God. AA is just one more. In fact, from one source of over 40 years of quality sobriety I've heard him say, "AA is all about God." The Co founder of AA, Dr Bob S. was quoted as saying "if you boil AA down to it's most basic components, it is all about Love, and Service."
    

    There are two things wrong with that. First off, A.A. was supposed to be a quit-drinking program, not a religion. It's that bait-and-switch trick again.

    Secondly, A.A. is not a path to God. More like a path to Satan. A.A. resembles selling your soul to the Devil in trade for sobriety, what with promising to deceive the newcomers to get them to join, and constantly parroting lies, and claiming that you can worship any Golden Calf or stone idol or "group of drunks" as your "Higher Power".

    A.A. is grossly heretical and unChristian. I wrote a whole file on that: The Heresy of the Twelve Steps.

14. This slogan is so grossly unrealistic that it is delusional:

    AA has never failed anyone. but people, as people will, do fail AA.
    

    Thanks for the proof that A.A. really is a cult.

15. About this line:

    Our Father, Who art in Heaven, Hallowed be Thy name... forgive us our trespasses, "AS WE FORGIVE those who trespass aginst us.. "
    

    What do you do about a criminal who won't quit committing his crimes and hurting people? Do you just "forgive him" and let him keep on doing it, year after year after year after year?

    Well, A.A. won't quit hurting and deceiving people.

16. Aren't acts of vengeance God's own province?
    

    Who is talking about vengeance? Do you see me sending out assassination squads to kill A.A. leaders?

    Telling the truth about what some frauds and con artists are doing is not "vengeance".

17. Find some Forgiveness, it's a bonafide step towards finding peace. If you do not, you seal your own fate with God. Isn't that what it's all about anyhow? Being free. Having peace & contentment. Helping others.
    

    What you really mean is, "Please quit telling the truth about Alcoholics Anonymous. Please just be quiet and go away and let us continue to deceive people."

    I really like the little threat and fear-mongering in there: "God will get mad at you for criticizing Alcoholics Anonymous and not forgiving them for hurting sick people. You are sealing your own fate."
    Do you stick pins in voodoo dolls when you put curses on people like that?

18. RE:

    If God speaks to us, it is in the language of the heart, and love is the only universal language that I know. Aren't we supposed to love our neighbor as ourself? Turn the other cheek? Forgive them as we want to be forgiven? Let it gho man. It's just wrong.
    

    Didn't God ever speak to you and order you not to lie? Aren't you supposed to tell the real truth about alcoholism, recovery, and Alcoholics Anonymous?

    Continuing to foist Dr. Frank Buchman's old cult religion on sick people is just wrong.

== Orange

*             orange@orange-papers.info        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     Some people want to know the truth, and some
**     people want their favorite beliefs reaffirmed.

May 11, 2012, Friday: The Fernhill Wetlands Sitting on the Oats 4 of the Family of 6 The baby of the family is upper center. Two Drakes These two guys are hybrids or mongrels, whichever word you prefer. They are a mixture of wild Mallard and domestic breeds. The Family of 6, running to get some more munchies The Family of 6, running to get some more munchies The baby of the family is lower center. [The story of the goslings continues here.]

[ Link here = http://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters316.html#Daryl ]

Date: Mon, July 9, 2012 5:47 pm     (answered 11 July 2012)
From: "Daryl"
Subject: Bwahaha!!

Sent from my iPhone

Sooo..., I actually clicked your link to see the lies of AA, but, due to the retarded format I gave up.

You claimed to have a specific number of lies, quote the lie, then reveal it's truth.......was that too difficult for you to do?

Hello Daryl,

I don't know what link you clicked on — you didn't say, and I'm not psychic. When you are complaining about a link, it helps if you say what the link is.

For the lies of A.A., the link is very simple:

== Orange

*             orange@orange-papers.info        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     "A lie gets halfway around the world before the
**     truth has a chance to get its pants on."
**         == Sir Winston Churchill (1874—1965)

[ Link here = http://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters316.html#Tom_M ]

Date: Tue, July 10, 2012 2:15 am     (answered 11 July 2012)
From: "Tom M."
Subject:

Would it be accurate to describe Al-Anon, NA, AA, ACOA, AlAteen etc. as different franchises of the same 12-step cult religion, targeted at different demographic groups?

Tom,
Ireland

Hi again, Tom,

Hmmm. Interesting question. I guess it depends on what we mean by "franchise". Legally, most franchises are licensed by the parent corporation, and the franchisee must obey certain rules and conform to a certain style to "preserve the brand". McDonalds burger joints, for example, must all look exactly alike and all serve the same things, even though they are actually owned by different people.

That does sound like the various 12-step groups, except that they are not licensed by the parent corporation Alcoholics Anonymous. Legally, they are all different corporations that subscribe to and promote the same 12-Step religion. (Except for Alateen, which is owned by Al-Anon.)

Even though they are legally separate corporations, there is obviously a tacit agreement among them that they will all sell the same 12-Step "spirituality", and they won't change the religious dogma in any way.

That makes them more like franchisees than like independent churches. I am often reminded of the myriad Protestant churches who all sell their own flavor of Protestant Christianity, which often differs from the neighboring Protestant church's flavor by only one tiny little bit of dogma, like whether they sprinkle or dunk during baptism, or use real wine or grape juice for communion. In that sense, the various 12-Step organizations are closer to franchises than to independent churches. The 12-Step franchisees are not allowed to make up their own theology, not even a little bit. They all look to Fearless Leader in the Interchurch Building in New York City for their inspiration and the official party line.

Interesting question. My answer is, "I'm going to go feed the geese."

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             orange@orange-papers.info        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**    The instinctive need to be the member of a closely knit group
**    fighting for common ideals may grow so strong that it becomes
**    inessential what these ideals are.
**       ==  Konrad Lorenz

[ Link here = http://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters316.html#Fred_C ]

Date: Fri, July 13, 2012 10:58 am     (answered 14 July 2012)
From: "Fred C."
Subject: Request for Assistance

Orange,

I was directed to your site through a Google search. I think I could spend a year reviewing what you have posted and not scratch the surface and all of the topics I scanned were of interest to me.

The reason I am writing, however, is to ask that you remove a document from your site.

The search query that led me to your site was a friends first and last name and it pulled up minutes from Area 33s June 19, 2011 Assembly. These minutes included first and last names, phone numbers and addresses and clearly identifies the people listed as members of Alcoholics Anonymous. This is in opposition of our traditions regarding anonymity.

Your assistance will be greatly appreciated. Thank you,
--
Fred C.
Delegate, Panel 61
Area 33, Southeast Michigan

A33_Minutes_2011-06.pdf

Hello Fred,

Actually, it is not an issue of "anonymity". If A.A. really practiced anonymity, there would be no last names in the document. Rather, what you are really practicing is merely secrecy, where you don't want outsiders to know names, or know who is doing what.

A.A. gave up on anonymity a long time ago. We all know the full names of lots of A.A. members ranging from Mel Gibson to Tara Conner to Aaron Sorkin to Gary Busey to Martin Sheen.

And we all know when Mel Gibson or Tara Conner or Lindsay Lohan is going back into rehab again.

And then there are the sub-cult leaders like Mike Quinones and Clancy Imusland.

And then there are famous A.A. authors like Mel Barger going on TV on The History Detectives, using his full name while he spouted A.A. mythology and misinformation.

The A.A. "tradition of anonymity" is not a tradition at all. It's just a policy of partial secrecy.

I would edit out the last names in that document if I could, just to be nice. Unfortunately, it is in PDF format and no editor that I have can edit it.

That document is too important and revealing to delete. What makes that document so important is the issue of crazy fantical dogmatic oldtimers telling sick people in treatment centers to not follow their doctors' orders, and to not take their medications. That is beyond outrageous.

TREATMENT: Neal K.: The Committee meets quarterly at Sylvan Lake Lutheran Church in West Bloomfield, 2399 Figa. The Committee has received a few complaints, from various Treatment Facilities. The panels going in for the Bridging the Gap Program have been giving advice to patients, in contradiction with what their attending physician has recommended. These problems were addressed and the coordinators for the facility were contacted and advised of the situation. The Committee decided to send a letter to all facilities participating in the Bridging the Gap Program stating that if problems arise, to contact the Corrections Committee.

== Orange

*             orange@orange-papers.info        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     Man is subject to innumerable pains and sorrows by the very condition
**     of humanity, and yet, as if nature had not sown evils enough in life,
**     we are continually adding grief to grief and aggravating the common
**     calamity by our cruel treatment of one another.
**        ==  Joseph Addison (1672—1719), English essayist, critic, poet

May 11, 2012, Friday: The Fernhill Wetlands Two of the Family of 6. The new baby is on the right. Two of the Family of 6. This little guy is asking for more munchies. The Little One picking out a shady, sheltered spot to sit down and take a nap. The Little One, resting. BLOG NOTE: Sunday, 2012.07.15: The Redwing Blackbird was outrageous today. I have regular feeding spots where I put out rolled oats for the birds. I put out piles of oats in the same places day after day because the birds learn where those places are, and know where to go to find food. There is one spot on the eastern pond where the Redwing Blackbirds have learned the spot and actually fly to me when I arrive. They know me and my routine, and they know why I'm there, so they sit in the nearby tree or bushes and squawk while I dole out the oats. Well today, one little guy had to nerve to demand that I leave as soon as I had put out a pile of oats. He actually flew around me squawking and complaining. He was happy with me putting out the oats, but as soon as I had, he wanted me gone so that he could eat in peace. I tried to get a picture of him when he landed on the ground just a dozen feet from me, but he jumped behind weeds and hid whenever I pointed a camera at him. How's that for gratitude? I feed him, and he won't even pose for a picture. He just demands that I leave. "Munchies, yes. Photographers, no. Go away." [The story of the goslings continues here.]

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Last updated 17 July 2013.
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