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Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2014 11:21:43 +1100 (answered 2 January 2015)
a.. "Can an alcoholic who is drinking himself to death say, "Frankly, I know I'm over-doing it, but I'm just not ready to stop, right now"? And that makes it okay for him to continue drinking?" Yes, they can also continue to drink and be drunk during meetings (as long as it's not problematic). You've written pages and pages of shit that is ill informed, I didn't bother reading much at all. Have you actually read the 12 steps? You won't ever get kicked out of AA for being drunk, nor will you for being high in NA. You missed the point didn't you? And I've only been to two meetings... Maybe you should go to one?
Hello Linda,
You have only been to two A.A. meetings and you think you know all about it?
Are you kidding?
With only two meetings under your belt, you are still at the love-bombing stage
where they are very nice to you and tell you all of the pleasant stories about
how tolerant A.A. is. and how your "Higher Power" can be anything, and you can
"Take what you want and leave the rest."
By the way, I've been to many A.A. meetings. Read the introduction to the web site:
I beg to differ with your ill-informed assumptions.
Some sponsors and some A.A. members may say that they are easy-going and
tolerant and don't care if you drink, but many are very dictatorial and
demand super-human perfection
from other members.
Not only will they shun and ostracize and put down someone who drinks (even just one or two drinks, one slip), but they also
insist that "sober" members not even take the medications that their doctor prescribed.
I have received many stories where people were told to give back all of their years of
sobriety coins for taking one drink or for taking legal doctor-prescribed medications.
For example, see these stories:
And yes, I've read the 12 Steps and the 12 "Traditions", and analyzed them here:
Have a good day now.
== Orange
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2014 00:19:06 -0500 (answered 2 January 2015) Hi I read your research on alcoholics anonymous and you are right bill wilson was a flake and is evil. Their is 3 symbols on the AA book and it is pagan and the third symbol is a santanic symbol. I learned alot from the article you wrote. Thanks.
Hello Aritheus,
Thanks for the note, and I totally agree about Bill Wilson.
Several years ago, I found a huge encyclopedic book of symbols in Goodwill, but
didn't buy it because I can't just buy everything that interests me. Now I regret
that decision. The book had at least a dozen circle-and-triangle occult symbols
listed, but I can't remember what they were.
But there is no doubt that the circle-and-triangle symbol has a long history in
the occult.
And the circle and pyramid with the eye on our dollar bill is one example of that.
Maybe I can find such a book in the library system. Now I'm curious about what
the roots of the A.A. symbols are.
Have a good day now.
== Orange
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2014 05:38:32 +0000 (UTC) (answered 2 January 2015)
rsvp.
Hello John,
Thanks for the praise, and the answer to your question about "who am I" is here:
Have a good day now.
== Orange
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2014 19:38:06 -0500 (answered 2 January 2014) Hello, and good evening. I am newly sober and feeling great. I have read a ton of books in the past two weeks (insomnia from lack of booze does that I suppose) and looked up numerous sources for living and remaining sober. I have read the Big Book and Smart along with other books on addiction from a medical stand point. I do NOT believe I am in any sense powerless, I believe I am a human who developed an addiction by using a substance to overcome a bad childhood. I have been to 2 AA meetings and recently (past 3 days) looked into online AA meetings. All of them were stupid to me. I am a person who grew up in abuse along with a fundamentalist Christian church (yes, serious mind fuck there) and all I can say is I ran as fast as I could. I heard SO many things that go back to the cult like church of my childhood, it honestly is scary. But one of the online forums I found is truly abhorrent and I have to say. I only visited for around 4 hours one night in this "AA chat room" yet left knowing that if I was a weaker human I certainly would have wanted to die. There is NOTHING out there saying to us as a society that these online meetings are just the same brow beating old timers who are so hated in f2f that they have to be assholes online just to get their feel of self satisfaction. But they are most likely killing and hurting a suffering alki. I urge you to please simply check this one out and sit and just watch and listen to the dogma and word beating that goes on to anyone that walks in proclaiming to be new to sobriety. It is so scary I ended up watching like a person watches a train hit a car. You just cannot help but watch. If you have more guts then I then I would dare you to ask practical questions (though I assure you it would be pointless, I learned that after 4 hours). Maybe something such as, why 90 in 90? Why a sponsor when that is not part of the big book? Here is the link and I am asking you to not print this. It will go against my wishes. But I just wonder if you can make any observations? http://www.aaonline.net/chatguests.php As a person who believes in researching ALL options before choosing anything in her life, I am truly astonished at what I have found out with regards to AA. I have ZERO tolerance for assholes trying to teach me to be perfect. I learned that 0 tolerance from the bible belt and all I can say to this online AA group is Bless theirs hearts (which if you know anything about us southern gals means simply : "Damn they are dumb!"
Hello Becca,
Thank you for the letter and the tip. And congratulations on your sobriety.
It does feel good, doesn't it? And congratulations on keeping your head screwed on
straight and your mind working.
I can easily believe what you are saying. Some of
those "clean and sober" forums are stoned crazy. They are nothing more than
advertisements and recruiting stations
for their favorite 12-Step cult religion, and places where they can
recite the "wonderful teachings" of their "holy prophet" St. Bill Wilson.
Those people sure do love to be parrots, don't they?
I'll see if I can get in there and take a look. But alas, my online time is very limited.
I don't have an Internet connection at my house, so I go to the library to get online.
As it is, I don't have enough online time to read my own forum.
Worse yet, I'm being shoved out of my house and have to spend the next month packing and
sorting and cleaning, so I won't have much time or energy for anything else.
But I'll see what I can see.
Have a good day now.
== Orange
Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2014 07:30:21 -0800 (answered 3 January 2015) I actually feel guilty for having negative feelings towards the one thing that is helping my sister stay sober. I can't even share them with her cause it might sound like I want her to drink again. The thing is since she started AA she is a different person; almost robotic. It seems as if she looks to the big book for every emotional situation. Like she can't interact with people without being an AA rep. Her apologies sound empty because "they are children of God and bow to no one". I could swear she's chanting in her head "be considerate of others as long as it doesn't harm you". I'm wary of asking questions because she becomes annoyed by my lack of understanding. This AA thing does seem like a cult. It's just weird. I can't recognize my best friend and it's sad.
Hello Tshidi,
Thank you for the letter.
I'm sorry to hear about your troubles. I hear that story often.
The problem that you are having begins with the
phrase "the one thing that is helping my sister stay sober."
No, no, no. That is the
Big Lie
of A.A. They claim that they are
saving millions, or helping millions,
but their actual cure rate is zero.
The A.A. 12-Step program produces a zero-percent improvement in the recovery
rate of alcoholics.
All that A.A. does is steal the credit from people who cure themselves.
And alcoholics do cure themselves. Every year, about 5% of the alcoholics get sick
and tired of being so sick and tired, and they just quit drinking.
(More on that here.)
They often also go to A.A. to see if it has help to offer, and A.A. sets to work convincing
the sober person that she quit because of the A.A. program, which isn't true at all.
The rest of the description of your sister and the problems with her personality
changes are typical cult fare. Yes, that is exactly what cults do to people,
and that's why I am opposed to cults. They destroy people.
Now, how to help your sister?
Expect to encounter the Dumbo problem. That is, Dumbo just "knew" that
the Magic Flying Feather that the Crow gave him made him able to fly, and he could
not fly without that magic feather. Until he learned that he could.
Your sister is convinced that she cannot stay sober without A.A., and
that A.A. makes it possible for her to stay sober.
Same problem.
Nevertheless, not going to A.A. does not equal returning to drinking.
There is also
Combatting Cult Mind Control.
Both are good. Both will give you a bunch
of ideas about how to deal with a cult, and how to get a loved one out of a cult.
Steve has also assembled that material into an e-Book. I don't know if it is released yet.
I've been reading a preliminary copy that he sent me, and it's good.
So you might find that. If not, those two books will tell you a lot.
They cover the same material.
Good luck, and have a good day now.
== Orange
Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2014 12:20:48 -0700 (answered 3 January 2015.) First of all let me thank you so much for your site. What an incredible and accurate resource you have gathered here! You deserve an award.
However, I have to disagree with you that counting time sober is a good thing. My point being that I've just never viewed this as a "good thing." I thank you so much for your efforts, Orange, I have been struggling with addiction for 30 years and wasted so much time with this "treatment". I have enough chips to start casino and enough key tags to start a car dealership. My failures — always my fault for not working the program right, an pretty impossible task for a true atheist. I've finally found help for my PTSD problem which I'm sure now is the driving force of my substance abuse. I just wish I would have found your sight so much sooner. Respectfully' Em
Hello Em,
Thanks for the letter and the viewpoint. And thanks for all of the compliments.
And I'm especially glad to hear that you got a diagnosis of PTSD as your
real underlying problem, rather than "alcoholism".
We were talking about that recently.
Renee and Mary wrote great letters about how once a patient is diagnosed
with "alcoholism" or "alcohol abuse",
then all investigation stops. Doctors or counselors often assume that all
observed mental problems are caused by the alcohol, rather than that the problem
with alcohol is caused by an earlier underlying condition. Mary said,
"After one starts drinking the diagnosis of alcoholism comes before anything else."
See these letters:
I have to agree with you mostly, about counting sober time, but
with a little reservation. I totally agree that the way that A.A. counts
sober time is bad because it sets up a status system where the old-timers
are the "honored elders" who get to dominate the rap with their crazy beliefs
and their parrotting of dogma, and their opinions are by and large unquestionable,
just because they have so much "Time".
Alas, a fool with 10 years of absolute sobriety is still a fool.
And yes, after someone loses all of their sober time (by taking a single drink),
it is very embarrassing to
have to go back to A.A. and accept another 1-day coin in front of everybody.
That is so embarrassing to some people that they just don't go back to A.A., ever.
Others may wait years before going back.
Also, counting time does nothing for people who just "get a grip" and take control
of their drinking, and cut down to moderate, controlled drinking. That is a great
accomplishment too — a lifesaver, in fact — but the A.A. way of
counting time says that they are not "sober".
And of course about half of all of the alcoholics who stop self-destructive drinking
do it by cutting down to moderate, controlled drinking, and the other half do
it by total abstinence.
A RAND Corporation
study established that.
SMART does not count time. People do not introduce themselves by saying,
"My name is Joe, and I'm an alcoholic who by the grace of God and A.A. hasn't taken
a drink in 10 years." No, there is none of that.
Which means that someone who just slipped can return to SMART immediately, and nobody
is probing and snooping and asking how many years, months, or days of sobriety he has.
And that is a good thing.
That said, I still count my own personal time. For me it's a point of pride to
have so many years without a drink or a cigarette or a hit of dope.
(And they all matter.)
When Steppers start bragging about their years of sobriety, I can brag right back.
When they claim that nobody can make it without A.A., I happily offer myself as
evidence to the contrary.
Of course I don't go to meetings and brag about my years. In fact, I don't go to
meetings at all.
Nevertheless, to be completely honest about it, there were a few times when I was tempted
to take a drink, but I thought, "If I take a drink, I will lose all of my 'sober time'
(by A.A. standards)
and won't be able to honestly argue years of sobriety with Steppers,"
and that alone was enough to keep me from taking the first drink.
So counting years can have a positive side too.
I also notice that accumulated sober time does mean something. It may not necessarily
mean what A.A. ascribes to it, but it does mean something.
In a recent letter,
someone who had been to two A.A. meetings was lecturing me and telling me that I
didn't know anything about it (and she did).
Time invested in something does count for something.
But of course we should be careful what we invest our time in.
"A year spent making mud pies is just a year wasted — you still don't
have any pies to eat." — Me.
So my plan is to count my personal sober time in private, but to not make it the end-all
and be-all.
Have a good day now.
== Orange
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2014 06:13:39 -0500 (answered 5 January 2015) May The Lord keep you in His Light. I personally do not understand your exhaustive campaign against AA. If I was obsessed with defending AA I could EASILY dismantle close to every argument you have made if not all. However the proof of its success lies in its obvious success, if it didn't provide a great joy for many it would never have come this far. It's structure has been praised by many who disliked even hated the "God" issue. One example being Charles Bufe. There has been AA critics since AA began, they are long since dead and the fellowship although not perfect is alive and well. I would hope you would turn your focus towards a more helpful bent. You are so prejudiced against AA that no new light could shine in, I don't think as a whole you could admit it has given a new sense of direction and belonging to countless people. There really are no other alternatives for those who are alcoholics who have become hopeless if so they certainty are not readily available. Peace my friend
Keith G.
Hello Keith,
Thank you for the letter and the sentiments.
Alas, you are grossly misinformed.
Wrong. Charles Bufe was mild in his criticism of A.A. in the first edition of his book, "A.A. Cult or Cure?", but then he
got a firestorm of attacks from the A.A. cult for his mild criticism, and a Stepper burned down his garage where he stored his
files on A.A., including
the infamous comments on the Triennial Surveys.
So in his second edition, Bufe didn't pull his punches and he called A.A. a cult.
Also look at this:
See:
http://www.behaviortherapy.com/whatworks.htm
Brief intervention is number one, and A.A. is number 38.
Also see:
We discussed that information at length several times, like here:
You have good day, Keith.
== Orange
[The next letter from Keith_G is here.]
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2014 11:15:49 -0500 (answered 5 January 2015.) Orange, Many members give their old coins to other members on their anniversary. My last 10 coins have all been "used". I have also given away many of my old coins. I still have a few, but for the most part they have been recycled.
Hello John,
Thanks for the letter.
The fact that a few people recycle their coins doesn't affect the numbers that much. We are looking at a sky-high
A.A. failure rate. Barely one percent make it for 10 years, and less than one in a thousand makes it for 20 years.
That isn't caused by reusing coins.
Also, you are ignoring the fact that some people pick up multiple 10-year and 20-year coins. They drive all over town,
from one meeting to another, picking up another coin so that they can hear the group cheering for them again and again.
Those "double-dippers" cancel out the people who recycle coins.
Even if AA only had a 1% success rate or heck a .01% success rate, for those that succeed in AA, it is 100%. That is just another A.A. slogan. For those people killed by A.A. abuse, like telling people not to take their medications, the A.A. death rate is also 100%. And for people like Robin Williams, who was driven to suicide by the A.A. true believers at Hazelden pushing the guilt-inducing Fourth and Fifth Steps, the A.A. death rate is also 100%. Personally, I feel that AA's success rate is proportional to the amount of effort one puts into it. I also feel that many people arrive to AA that are not they type of alcoholic that requires a spiritual awakening to recover. There are many other places to get sober, AA is not the only way, but for that 1% (or .01%) it works.
Again, that is
minization and denial,
and
assuming a cause-and-effect relationship where none exists.
If someone quits drinking while attending a few A.A. meetings, you say that he proves that A.A. works.
If someone doesn't quit drinking while attending A.A. meetings, you don't say that he proves that A.A. doesn't work,
you say that he didn't work the program right. That is bull. That is also called
Demand an Uneven Burden of Proof.
I don't think the government should sentence people to AA attendence and I feel that skews the numbers a bit also. From my own experience sponsoring people and with forming friendships, more than half are able to change enough to not drink and drug long term. For how long? Who knows. I guess as long as staying sober is important to them.
I agree that the government should never sentence people to A.A. meetings, or to any other religion, either.
Your own experience sponsoring people is such a tiny sample that it doesn't prove anything.
What about the million other people who aren't helped by A.A.?
If you think that A.A. is beneficial, please answer this one simple question:
The fact that AA even helps alcoholics not take a drink for 30 days is a miracle. A year without a drink for many seems like forever. No it is not a miracle. Jeez Loise! Talk about religious nonsense. A miracle is where someone uses spiritual powers to do something that is physically impossible, like raising someone from the dead, or turning a couple of fish and loaves of bread into enough food to feed 5000 people, or healing the blind by smearing mud in their eyes. Abstaining from drinking for 30 days is just 30 days of abstention, not a miracle. Not even 10 years of sobriety is a miracle. It happens all of the time when people get sick and tired of being sick and tired and just quit drinking. And they do it without A.A. Thanks again, John
You have good day too, John.
== Orange
[The next letter from John_L is here.]
Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2014 14:01:28 -0800 (answered 5 January 2015.) Hello Orange. I hope all is well with you on this fine day. I've read much of your writing and am grateful for your tremendous output. At one point I read about how you determined what type of alcoholic you were and that you were one who just could not drink ever, no matter what. There were two or three other types... Could you please help my find this on your site? I am technologically challenged and have only rudimentary search skills.
Thanks again.
Hello John,
Thanks for the question. Now I never exactly categorized alcoholics into two or three distinct types, but
I did talk about how way back in the nineteen-seventies, the famous government think tank called The Rand Corporation
did a study of alcoholism
that found that half of the alcoholics who successfully stopped self-destructive drinking did it by
total abstinence, and the other half did it by tapering off into moderate controlled drinking.
And I said that I had learned the hard way that I was one of the people who should just never drink, not even a little bit,
because once I start down that slippery slope, things get bad. But I can totally abstain for many years without
difficulty.
One such letter is here:
And then, when it comes to categorizing alcoholics, I know that it matters a lot what their underlying problem is.
It is entirely possible that the majority of people who get diagnosed
as "alcoholics" — or more correctly, as cases of Alcohol Abuse
or Alcohol Dependency — are really suffering from something else like
Obviously, those people will appear to be very different kinds of "alcoholics", and they will behave differently.
What they really are is very different kinds of illnesses. Excessive consumption
of drugs and alcohol are just signs of the underlying disorder.
Have a good day now.
== Orange
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2014 17:55:38 -0800 (answered 5 January 2015.) im a fan of your site have been for many months. im also a fan of a site called gnosticmedia.com . id like to see you on his podcast. he does a lot in terms of critical thinking, cults, cia brainwashing etc etc. anyway keep up the work P.S.: https://webbrain.com/brainpage/brain/6FBA86B0-0C57-9FCA-5CF9-D742DA541AAA#-4743 this is a link to some of his stuff
Hello Osix,
Thank you for the suggestion. I'll have to check that out. That sounds very interesting.
Have a good day now.
== Orange
Earlier, I said that I would give a book report on this old book when I had a chance to read it. Well, I'm far from
done with it, but I'm finding a bunch of relevant stuff:
Strong Drink; The Curse And the Cure T. S. Arthur
This book shows that Bill Wilson had nothing original when he copied the theology and meetings of the Oxford Group as a "solution to alcoholism". T. S. Arthur had already described the whole A.A. "program" in 1877, even including the women's auxiliary Al-Anon, and the fact that membership was open to all who wished to quit drinking, and one or two meetings per week that include testimonials from the reformed drunkards, and God will help you to quit drinking. Bill Wilson liked to describe Alcoholics Anonymous as "probably one of the greatest medical and spiritual developments of all time", and "the miracle of the century", but he didn't bother to mention the fact that his "program" was really created by other people in the previous century. Bill Wilson insisted that all other A.A. members besides himself, especially celebrities, must remain anonymous because:
"It would be harmful if the Fellowship promoted itself by publicizing, through the media of radio and TV, the sobriety of well-known public personalities who became members of AA. If these personalities happened to have slips, outsiders would think our movement is not strong and they might question the veracity of the miracle of the century." The miracle of the century? Which century? Today, A.A. tries to rewrite history and claim that it is completely different from the many temperance societies that came before it. And they try to claim that A.A. is somehow much better than its predecessors. No way. A.A. is merely more cultish and better at growing like a cancer.
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2014 16:43:03 +0000 (UTC) (answered 6 January 2015.) If alcoholism were a contagious disease, the rooms of AA would be where you catch it.
Hi Jeff,
So true. In fact, it might be truer than you thought. Some critics of A.A. have noticed that people don't develop all
of the signs and symptoms of "alcoholism" until they have spent some time in the A.A. rooms and gotten indoctrinated
with all of the A.A. beliefs like "powerlessness" over alcohol.
Only then do they develop the full-blown syndrome of abstain, relapse, return to meetings, stay sober for a while until
the pressure builds up, and then explode in a big binge and relapse again, etc.,
and repeat the cycle endlessly.
Teaching people that they are powerless over alcohol makes them act like it, and
increases the rate of binge drinking.
At least we don't have that problem.
Have a good day now.
== Orange
[ Link here =
http://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters422.html#Michael_L ]
Dec 27, 2014, 4:27 PM (answered 6 January 2015.) Thanks for the reply- I may want to use this and the letter from Dr Rico in a blogpost on DisruptedPhysician.com One item that caught my eye was your advice to Dr. Rico suggesting that he contact the ACLU. Although good advice the ACLU has unfortunately turned a deaf ear to doctors over the past 8 years. I have heard of multiple cases across the country (Oregon, Washington, NC, Florida and others). These doctors reported clear Establishment Clause violations but where denied any sort of assistance and told to hire a private attorney (which is pretty difficult when you have been rendered financially destitute by the very same individuals who are violating the 1st Amendment). I have now heard from three individuals in other states that they have been told "Doctors are my a priority." Apparently the ACLU cannot see the Forrest for the trees and that the scaffold that has been erected to hang doctors is merely a few public policy statements away from everyone else. The FSPHP is now throttling Pilots — they are also apparently not a priority! Next will be teachers, then students and so on. When does it become a priority? In my case I contacted the ACLU a couple years ago with 4 Establishment Clause violations. They can all be seen here: Their response has been to patently ignore me. I will forward you the emails I have sent the ACLU and their scant response under separate cover. I am unsure where the barriers to what you and I know to be truth are and what to do to address them. My 4 Establishment Clause Violations ( which are egregious if you look at them- particularly in light of the fact that my state mandates AA was based on a proven falsified test and the State's own evaluator deemed me to have never had a problem with alcohol addiction, abuse or even use) have still not been corrected. It would be so easy for the ACLU to step in but unfortunately when they do it is going to be too late. And when this happens I think it is important that we be able to show who knew what and when — including those who could have done something about it but didn't. Sincerely, Michael L. Sent from my iPhone
Hello again, Michael,
Thanks for the reply, and I couldn't agree more. It's a shame that the ACLU has a blind spot when
it comes to shoving crazy cult religion "treatment" on doctors.
I feel like that will not end well. The ACLU stands to lose a huge amount of credibility if they
will only defend the rights of prisoners, but not doctors.
Does the ACLU exist only to brighten up the days of criminals?
And get criminals big cash settlements for coerced A.A. meetings?
Inquiring minds want to know.
Good luck now, and have a good day.
== Orange
Last updated 15 January 2015. |
