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Date: Tue, July 5, 2011 6:52 am (answered 5 July 2011) Hi Terrance, Just going through some old files again and some quotes popped up which I thought you'd enjoy...
It is truly amazing the amount of lies, contradictions and absolute garbage that can be found in A.A. literature. Thanks Terrance,
Hello iamnotastatistic,
Thanks for the input. You make a bunch of good points there.
And I have to agree: Yes, the A.A. literature is unreal. I especially like the quote about
the benefits of murderous political dictatorships. I just coincidentally used it to answer another
letter,
above.
I can see this wacky vision of Bill Wilson and Adolf Hitler sitting around and comparing notes,
discussing the relative benefits of murderous political dictatorships in America and Germany...
Oh would it be fun to be a fly on the wall in that room.
Oh well, have a good day anyway.
== Orange
Date: Sat, July 2, 2011 6:01 pm (answered 5 July 2011) Hi Come along to any meeting I attend in Oregon! It's hilarious. I'm a 35yr (on 6th July) years member of AA and entered it, and remain, a cynic and an atheist! I find the ONLY reason to stay is that as various life crises have come upon me (far more in sobriety than when I drank) like divorce, the death of parents, the death of my son two yaers ago, there have been members who have been through the same thing, and coaxed me into sharing my anguish, grief anger whatever and saw me through it... Other than that much of the program is, as must be evident to any with a whit of intelligence, pure hogwash! Bill was a patronising so and so, who as an averred Christian had the temerity to pen 'we agnostics'.. today he would probably pen 'we gays' or 'we transgender anorexics' anything to get HIS view across with the spurious authority of his imprimateur? He also used science (when he 'knew but a little' to neatly scewer himself.. witness his electrons in his girder that go around in their rigid paths, showing the order in God's universe.. except of course they do no such thing.. they are bound by uncertainty and thus prove that there is NO absolute order and so (if one followed Bill's reasoning) no God? :-) I have questioned why as an ostensibly non-denominational organisation, we say the Christian 'Lord's Prayer' for instance? Any deviation from the Big Book is considered heresy... one must agree, say the slogans, express gratitude or shut up... they even deny it's a self-help group, which is patently exactly what it is? I now run a guerrilla campaign, using their own tactics against them. Having 35 years has to be worth something, and what it's good for is saying 'wait until you have been sober as long as I and then tell me your way of achieving it'. That always riles them (as if I cared, but apparently they do.) There's also the nonsensical 'time does not matter' which makes one wonder why they proudly collect annual tokens? The whole thing is a wonderful conflation of Catholic guilt, new age buzz-words and good old charismatic mind-control. Why do I still go? Well with their aversion (like all cults) to conversing with outsiders, one must subvert from within! lol Most religions have at their heart a mixture of mental problems, or a person with more than one: The obsessive compulsive (from whence flows the ritual, the superstition that any deviation from the 'rules' will lead to some disaster.) The schizotypical personality — who marches to a different drum, and engages in 'magical thinking' seeing meaning and purpose in coincidence and happenstance The temporal near-epileptic, who does not have full blown tonic-clonic seizures, but does experience 'aura' like that 'moment of clarity' that 'bright white light' of St Paul, or Moses' burning bush. Each appeals to the lonely, the gullible, the weak and the desperate.. and so a cult / religion / Glenn Beck is born! lol Doug A SD 6th July 1976 and still without a 'God of my understanding' 'higher 'power' or blind faith! :-)
Hi Doug,
Thanks for the letter, and I'm glad to hear that you are doing well. Especially congratulations
on keeping yourself sober and sane for 35 years. It sure beats the alternative, doesn't it?
You sound like another good candidate for the "Newcomers Rescue League", so welcome to the club.
And have a good day now.
== Orange
[ Link here = http://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters247.html#ANONYMOUS ]
Date: Mon, July 4, 2011 6:56 am (answered 5 July 2011) I am beginning to understand what you mean concerning a vote to pass anything of importance. I don't have proof of these figures, but we have 93 delegates. The number of voting staff of GSO The AA grapevine and trustees is 41. That is a total of 134. The way I see it, the 41 votes is pretty much a solid block of votes with much the same interests: to keep things as they are now. It would take 88 delegates to vote in a block to pass anything, (virtually impossible). Now that the AA Grapevine and the General Service Office are on an equal level, created by inserting a simple comma between the two. They share the same concerns: their livelihood. The comma can be found on page S 72 of the 2008-2009 AA Service Manual. But you probably already know that. I only started this research about four years ago. You were a few years ahead of me. I have a meeting Mon-Fri. 7-8 AM. I started the meeting four years ago. We have eliminated the HIW reading. We have NO chanting, and do not "Hold Hands and Pray. We had 14 this morning, and collected $24. I am going to try to get the group to stop sending funds to any service structure. Concept #7 tells us we can do that if we are not satisfied with our "leaders". We have some members who come to our morning, out of work and just getting well. But when they go back to work, they will go to other meetings. Honestly, there are no AA or NA meetings in this area that I would recommend. They are basically some kind of chanting, strange religion, with many Big Book Thumpers and step crammers. Many are in and out of "relationships". I am considering looking for an alternative to these "off the wall" meetings. Maybe I will find something. Use this any way you like. I suspect that you will do that anyway. But I really do wish to remain ANONYMOUS.
Hello again, ANONYMOUS,
Thanks for the letter. All of that information is interesting.
And I didn't know about the comma on page 72, and cleverly changing the meaning of
a line that way. I don't know everything.
I also feel like I am still playing catch-up in trying to learn about all of the mechanations
at the A.A. headquarters, and how they rewrite the rules every so often.
Doesn't it resemble the pigs in George Orwell's Animal Farm? The pigs kept
sneakily editing the
rules that were painted on the barn wall, changing them to the pigs' advantage.
Have a good day now.
== Orange
[The next letter from ANONYMOUS is here.]
[The previous letter from Vernon is here.]
Date: Tue, July 5, 2011 9:45 pm (answered 7 July 2011) Well, I must say, you are an excellent provocateur with a whole arsenal of pat, well rehearsed rebuttals, perfect for any situation. Were you by any chance on a debate team at some point?
Hello again, Vernon,
No, I was never on a debating team. I learned about debating from trying to tell the truth
to Steppers.
My "arsenal" of what you call "pat, well
rehearsed rebuttals" are actually just facts. I collect facts like how some other people collect
postage stamps, because I want to know what the real truth is.
Rather than getting into an on-line pissing match in which you are already fully prepared and I am shooting from the hip, how about you delete any and all of my e-mails? You do not have my permission to post our private communications on your hate site. (I suppose you have a pat, prepared response for that too.) Have a good day, now or whenever you choose to.
Letters to the Orange Papers, or to "Orange", are not private communications, any more
than Letters To The Editor of a newspaper are private communications. They are very public
communications, and it is absurd to expect privacy when you send a letter to the editor.
Now when people write to me and start their letter by saying,
"PLEASE DON'T PUBLISH THIS LETTER", then
I respect that wish, and I do not publish the letters.
But it's a little bit much to demand that a series of letters be
deleted after I have gone to the trouble of answering all charges and claims and
accusations at length, and posted the letters on the web site, and then you responded with
more arguments, and no objections to the publication. Just because you lose a debate
isn't grounds for deletion.
And I do not conduct private offline debates by email.
Such debates would be a waste of time, and they would not
benefit or educate or inform or even entertain anybody else. ALL debates are public.
By the way, I still maintained your anonymity.
Have a good day now.
== Orange
[The next letter from Vernon is here.]
Date: Wed, July 6, 2011 10:12 am (answered 7 July 2011) Do you have a bio you can link to? I would like to know more about you. Chris B. Sober in aa for 11 years.
Hi Chris,
There isn't any one page that is "the bio". There are a bunch of pieces and things here and there.
The best link is this one:
How did you get to where you are?
That answer includes links to "who are you?" answers and personal history and other relevant things.
Have a good day now.
== Orange
Date: Fri, July 8, 2011 12:42 pm (answered 12 July 2011) Many thanks for this. Obviously aa is not to everyones taste and they are free to look elsewhere for answers. I have chosen to stay with them. You enjoy your day as well! Chris.
Hi again, Chris,
Good luck, and have a good day now.
== Orange
Date: Wed, July 6, 2011 12:17 pm (answered 7 July 2011) Orange, It's interesting to read some of the more benevolent accounts of AA from members who claim that they "NEVER see such things (13th Stepping, Sponsor Abuse, etc.) at THEIR meetings." In many of these people's accounts they have great, laid back sponsors who are like friends and are used primarily as sounding boards. Their meetings are comprised of reasonable nice people who want to get better and help others through their experience, strength, and hope. These folks are often the ones most likely to parrot the softer, friendlier slogans of AA ("We have no monopoly on recovery", "Take what you want and leave the rest", "There are no rules", "These are only suggestions"), sometimes even claim THEY are atheists or agnostics and have still found a way to make the program work for them. These are what I like to call "Rose Colored AAs" (we'll use "Rose" for short). Rose is often educated, has a good job, has basically a good if not perfect family, a nice home in the suburbs, will go to meetings in pleasant (often mainline Protestant) church basements in nice neighborhoods populated mostly people like themselves instead of clubhouses and treatment centers, didn't get into TOO much trouble with the law or with health consequences (though he/she will maximize their own story of struggle and bottom in their drunkalogue) and will often claim their bottom as a "spiritual" or "emotional" bottom as much as a physical one or one with tremendous outside consequences. Because of Rose's intelligence, sophistication, social skills, surroundings, and overall life skills he/she will instinctively know how to navigate away from dangerous, unstable, manipulative people and has enough outside support to not have to REALLY depend on AA by itself and will often have additional help in the form of psychological therapy, supportive families, and generally a good sense of self once they stop the destructive patterns. Basically they have an easier time succeeding simply because they have more to live for in the first place. While I know many AAs (including many who fit into the Rose profile) would vehemently object to the generalizations I've laid out, my own experience has suggestions that one's "success rate" has AT LEAST as much to do with "outside" influences as it does the degree to which one buys into AA. Rose thinks his/her experience is typical of the "real" AA and that all these horror stories are simply abominable exceptions that don't reflect the TRUE reality. Their AA is the one of "sober" picnics and parties, dances, conferences, friendly meetings mostly comprised of benevolent old-timers like themselves. They naturally "stick with the winners" because they are winners themselves already. They really don't get why anyone who doesn't agree with AA doesn't just leave since it maybe just "isn't for them". They assume AA has helped "millions" because they themselves see success stories all around them. My point is that if you have resources around you it will be easier to recover if for no other reason because you have more to work with. I like how Dr. Stanton Peele puts it,
"external factors... all have a tremendous impact on drinking and alcoholism. The idea that it doesn't bear any relation to your social class is wrong. In fact in the United States the higher your social class the more likely you are to drink but the less likely you are to have a drinking problem. So much information about people, their lives... has to be suppressed in order to shoehorn alcoholism into a disease category that it's totally unscientific and dysfunctional to try to do so." Or to put it more succinctly, here's a quote from the song "What It's Like" by Everlast, "You know where it ends, yo, it usually depends on where you start." Mike
Hello Mike,
Thanks for the letter. Your description of a certain sub-sect is so clear that it just has a ring
of truth to it. I can just see the sober picnics (and in fact, have seen a few).
Your description of the Rose-Colored A.A. member is a neat addition to a discussion that is going
on in the forum right now, about
"Alcoholics Anonymous member classification":
I'll add a link there to this letter.
Have a good day now.
== Orange
Date: Tue, July 5, 2011 2:14 am (answered 7 July 2011) just been reading your stuff?! Was thinking of booking into the priory, (england). take it you would advise no then??
Hello Gary,
I don't know anything about the "Priory" in England.
I had never heard of them before.
But I just did a Google search for it, and found what appears to
be their their web site:
I used the search box on the right-hand side of the page, and entered
"12-Step", and got five hits:
http://www.priorygroup.com/KeywordSearchResults.aspx?query=12-Step&page;=1
One entry claims that they have
The mention of CBT (cognitive behavioral therapy) and "brief intervention"
sounds good. But other entries say:
Another search result says:
I am very suspicious. Anybody who can keep a straight face while selling 12-Step cult religion
as a therapy or a treatment is a lying con artist and a quack. I mean, someone who can look you in the
eye and say, "It works, it really does," while selling superstition and cult religion
and quack medicine is simply not to be trusted.
I would definitely look for another facility, one that does not sell any 12-Step cult religion as a cure for
addiction problems.
Try asking for something that is based on CBT (cognitive behavioral
therapy), RBT (rational behavioral therapy), or REBT (rational emotive behavioral therapy),
or AVRT (addictive voice recognition therapy), or something like
that which is sane and scientific, with some kind of medical evidence
to back up the effectiveness of the treatment.
Good luck and have a good day now.
== Orange
Date: Thu, July 7, 2011 12:49 pm (answered 8 July 2011) Dude! Where the hell did you go to meetings at? The AA that you went to is not the one that I go to......I would NEVER tell or imply to anyone that AA is the only way or even the best way to get sober. Although it has worked for me....that does not mean its for everyone. I have used the spiritual principals in the steps to improve the quality of my life but that does not mean I blindly follow the sick and stop thinking for myself. Have you been to meetings all over the United States? All over the world? Every region? Every culture? Researched the diffferent generations AA has impacted for the good or the bad? If not, how can you state what AA is or is not?
sincerely,
Hello Lisa,
Thanks for the letter.
You may not tell people that A.A. is the only way, but plenty of other A.A. members do, including
Bill Wilson. I'm not sure whether you saw the previous letter that talked about that question,
but I just
covered the issue there.
(Click on that link.)
If you have already read that letter, then I ask, which of the quotes from A.A. literature do you dispute?
And isn't it the same Big Book the world over?
You can also read these two items that I mentioned there:
Again, which quotes from the A.A. literature are incorrect?
Lastly, why don't you go to an A.A. meeting and "share" the statement that you are going to leave
A.A. and follow a rational recovery kind of program like SMART or SOS or AVRT, and see what kind of
reaction you get? Will the other A.A. members congratulate you for following your heart and your
own intuition and wish you well, or will they tell you that you are making a fatal mistake and try to talk you out of it?
Try that experiment in several different A.A. meetings and see what happens.
Have a good day now.
== Orange
Date: Wed, July 6, 2011 2:39 pm (answered 8 July 2011) Hi! On your article about abusive "correctional" facilities, you mention the coroner who was so incompetant that he remarked that the testes and prostate gland of Donna Faye Reed were unremarkable, then state that those body parts are found on males, not females. I think the correct terms would be "biological females" and "biological males," and it should have been specified that Donna was a biological female. (That is, a person with a female gender-identity born into a female body.) A trans female might very well have an unremarkable prostate gland and testes.
Cheers,
Hello CS,
Sorry, but that is going too far for me. By definition — biological
and medical definition — a female is a creature that has
two X chromosomes, and as a result grows secondary sexual
characteristics like ovaries, a uterus, a vagina, and breasts. A male has an X and a Y chromosome,
and as a result grows secondary sexual characteristics like testicles, a prostate gland, and a penis.
Declaring oneself to be a different sex, and cross-dressing,
changes none of that. Even sex-change surgery will change only some of that.
No kind of surgery changes the chromosomes.
A competent coroner or pathologist should notice, in an autopsy, that the deceased has the
sex organs of the opposite sex from what the paperwork states should be there.
Have a good day now.
== Orange
Date: Thu, July 7, 2011 9:49 am (answered 9 July 2011) Hi, I was reading your website and I wanted to write to you so I hope this works. I have a son who has had addiction problems with alcohol, prescription meds (vicodin) and crack. The last time he went out on a crack binge, I told him that he had to go to rehab or leave my home. He went to rehab. I could not have contact with him for the first three weeks and then he could only have visitors if a family member went to their "Family Counseling" every week. I did not realize that their program was based on AA at the time. They do some cognitive behaviour therapy but it's mostly AA meetings. He wanted me to let him out saying "there must be a better way" but I refused to come pick him up to leave. I called back to speak with someone who worked there and she told me not to let him manipulate me like that. He IS very manipulative. So he wound up staying and I started going to their meetings which were basically the same thing as an AA meeting. Then I was allowed to visit him. The thing is, they DO treat them like children, as one woman said on your website. They take away cigarette privileges if they "misbehave", they have now taken away even their coffee....they said they were drinking too much of it. I even brought some in for the group but they wouldn't let them have it...the staff was drinking it. One guy from the office had the nerve to walk through the dining room during visiting hours carrying a large mug of coffee. All the guys were practically drooling. When they are outside, they can't smoke unless it's an official smoke break. He's been in there a little more than 60 days and has at least another 30 to go. He does seem to be better but I've been noticing that his conversations revolve around the 12 steps which he initially thought was a bunch of hooey. I myself didn't really have a problem with AA except for that "powerless" stuff. I personally think that we all have the power to do whatever we want, including not drinking but I thought well, maybe it will work for him. They do have an "us vs them" mentality in there and strongly dislike most of the staff. After I read your website, I started to become concerned. I expressed my concerns to some friends and they said that I should not interfere with his "treatment". They said that it might work for him where nothing else has, but I'm not so sure right now. He is already a wreck and my friends think I would make things worse for him if I rocked the boat right now. He attends AA meetings 6 days a week with a sponsor, one of the counselors tells him that he should not be taking Paxil, which he takes for severe anxiety, because it's "all in his head and he is causing his own anxiety". He has social phobia anxiety and gets sweaty palms and heart palpitations whenever he's in a group setting. He is working on Step 4 right now and one of the counselors yelled at him because he thinks he got to Step 4 too quickly and that he was just faking it....I'm not sure what to do, but I'm very concerned.
Thanks,
Hello Pat,
Thank you for the letter and the question.
You know, I really hesitate to give out advice in situations like this.
We will always be left with the "what if" questions no matter what you do:
Still, I think there are some things that are pretty obvious:
The 12-Step religion is not a cure for such problems. Practicing the Steps just
makes such people worse off.
Like I said, I really hate to give out advice in such situations, because I cannot predict
the future, but if it was my son, I'd get him out of there.
I would not trust sadistic slogan-slingers and cult religion members with my son's life.
If he really needs to be confined to a treatment center, I'd find something that does not
involve torture, cult religion, and crazy sadistic staff members. There must be some good
residential treatment centers somewhere.
Then again, does he really need to be confined? Maybe he needs a psychiatric medicine stronger
than Paxil. I'm not a doctor, so I can't say, but if it were my son, I'd get him to a better
doctor, somebody who is really good at treating such anxiety disorders.
Try several doctors until you get one who has the right answer.
It's just too easy for a doctor to simply prescribe Paxil for a multitude of problems, and it seems that the
Paxil isn't helping enough, so I'd try to get something else that works better.
I'd also get him to some SMART meetings. Or SOS, or Lifering, or HAMS, or anything like that.
Being surrounded by some relatively sane, non-cultish, recovering people can be a positive influence.
This link will lead you to a list of
such organizations, and also a list of letters about what has helped other people.
Good luck, and have a good day now.
== Orange
From: "Robert S"
I may need to re-read that but do you consider that 1,000 coins might not entirely represent 1,000 newcomers who drop out, but also a number of people relapsing and constantly picking up additional 24-hour coins who might or might not ever make it to < 1 year milestones?
We could be talking about 200 unique members here, some of whom may drop out due to disgust or a return to alcoholism... and some of whom have just collected an awful lot of "desire chips" without it really "working" in spite of "coming back" ?
Hello Robert,
Yes, I've considered it, and we have talked about that several times,
including
here.
First off, I said that the dropout rate shown by the coins (or "chips" or "medallions") given
out is not scientifically established or 100% accurate, but it is a good indicator of what
is happening.
I know that many people collect multiple 1-Day coins. They relapse two or three times or more
times, and each time they come back, they get another 1-day coin. But at the other end,
oldtimers who are collecting the 10-year or 20-year coins pick up multiple coins because
they just love to hear the crowd cheering and applauding for them. One very revealing
peculiarity of the numbers of coins given out is that the number of coins given out
steadily declines from 2 to 9 years, and then suddenly spikes back up at the 10-year point,
and then continues to decline after 10 years.
(Look here.)
The A.A. groups actually give out more 10-year coins than 8- or 9-year coins. Mathematically,
that is an impossibility if everybody is just dutifully collecting one coin as it comes due.
A correspondent wrote in and advised me that what I was noticing was the people who drive
all over town, from meeting to meeting, to collect another 10-year coin and hear the crowd
cheering and applauding for them again and again.
As I explained in that previous letter,
one single 20-year old-timer picking up a second coin will offset 1000 newcomers picking up a second
1-Day coin. Do you understand how that math works? The ratio of a thousand to one for the newcomers versus
the 20-year oldtimers will not change. And if a 20-year oldtimer picks up two extra coins, he offsets
2000 newcomers getting a second coin. And so on.
Now lets consider the worst-case possibility. Taking your number, let's assume that instead of
1000 people dutifully picking up their one-day coins, we have only 200 who average picking up
5 1-day coins each. And lets ignore the oldtimers picking up multiple coins.
You know, that will hardly change the numbers at all. Instead of only one in a thousand
people making it for 20 years, we will have 5 oldtimers making it for 20 years. Only 5 out
of a thousand. That leaves A.A. still being a total failure that doesn't sober up people
for the long run.
Another thing to notice is the other declines. We know that many beginners pick up multiple one-day
coins, but how many people have you ever heard of who pick up multiple 1-, 2-, or 3-year coins?
Or 5-year coins? I honestly have never heard of anyone who repeatedly got 5-year coins, and then relapsed
and started over with the 1-day coins, and then got up to five years, and then relapsed again, and
started over again, and again, and again.
The decline in numbers of coins still continues, steadily, in all year brackets.
The number of 5-year coins given out was 16.29 per thousand,
but the number of 11-year coins given out was 7.58 per thousand — less than half.
So it would appear that A.A. is not even keeping the oldtimers sober.
More than half of the 5-year guys are gone by 11 years. And most all of them are gone by 21 years.
The number of 21-year coins given out was miniscule: only 0.76 per thousand 1-day coins. So the 5-year
rate of
16 per thousand declined to less than one oldtimer per thousand newcomers by 21 years.
Completely ignoring the newcomers for the moment, we still see that A.A. loses 95% of their sober members
from 5 to 21 years. And they lose more than 99.5% of the 1-year success stories by 21 years.
The 12 Step program just doesn't work to keep people sober.
All that A.A. does is suppress the desire to drink, and also suppress and bottle up anger and frustration (because you
can't have a "resentment"), until people explode in a drinking binge. A.A. is very unhealthy
psychotherapy, and it is even counter-productive, meaning, worse than no therapy or treatment at all.
Another reader just sent in
an article from the
International Journal of Mental Health and Addiction that found
that A.A. was not only a failure, but counter-productive.
(Check it out.)
The so-called "studies" that found A.A. to be a success were flawed, fraudulent, invalid, and faked.
(There is plenty of good money to be made by selling an old cult religion to the suckers.)
The small details of the mathematical analysis of the coins given out might be a little inaccurate,
but the big picture is undeniable: A.A. is not getting the alcoholics sober, or keeping them sober.
Have a good day now.
== Orange
Date: Sun, July 10, 2011 2:13 pm (answered 11 July 2011) Thought you might be interested in this attached paper. The citation is: International Journal of Mental Health and Addiction. 2008. (6) 568-576. Keep up the great work. *Attachments:*
IJMA 2 (APA) in press.doc
[Also see updated version of the document, here:
Hello Clark,
Thank you for the information. That is great, and I would never have found that myself.
12-Step Treatment for Alcohol and Substance Abuse Revisited: Best Available Evidence Suggests Lack of Effectiveness or Harm The essence of that paper is: The previous so-called "studies" that declared that A.A. worked great, and much better than CBT (Cognitive Behavioral Therapy) at a Veteran's Administration center were flawed, fraudulent, and (dare I say it?) downright faked. And guess who did that faked V.A. study? The notorious Humphreys-Moos team of professional A.A. propagandists. The names of the authors of this paper were not given, so I can only assume that the editors of the International Journal of Mental Health and Addiction must have written this paper. If so, this is big news. The Journal authors found that the previous studies that claimed that A.A. worked great were invalid for all of the following reasons:
The authors concluded that A.A. was worse than no treatment, and that, on the principle of "do no harm", health care professionals should not send people to A.A.:
The corrected outcome results (likely 0 to 15 percent remission for substance abuse) support the conclusion that the type of realistic community 12-Step based intervention described is at best ineffective and likely less beneficial than no treatment. I hope this gets published far and wide. Have a good day now. == Orange
Date: Tue, July 12, 2011 7:39 am (answered 12 July 2011) Clark gave you a preliminary copy. I believe this is what was actually published: http://www.directionsact.com/pdf/drug_news/Miller_J_2008.pdf
Hello Mona Lisa,
Thank you very much. Now that is more complete, and we have the author's name.
Local copy here:
Have a good day.
== Orange
Last updated 19 January 2013. |
