[ Link here = http://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters355.html#NoName ]

Date: Fri, May 24, 2013 1:01 pm       (answered 27 May 2013)
From: "NoName"
Subject: My experience with AA

Hi,

I just wanted to add my experience with AA. I started attending when I was just 16 years old. I had a lot of personal problems and hung around a bad crowd. I was doing drugs and drinking, I overdosed once on drugs and was in the hospital with alcohol poisoning at a young age. I was arrested numerous times due to my drinking, etc. You know the story. Anyway, after a 30 day court ordered treatment program, I began going to AA.

As soon as I began going, I was approached by numerous older men. I was very promiscuous at a young age due in part to abuse from my childhood. To make a long story short, I took these men up on their offers. I'm lucky I didn't catch any sort of disease. I left home at 17 to move in with one of them — a 50 year old man. He was a fairly popular AA guy and I looked up to him. He had turned his life around, quit drinking and seemed to "talk the talk". I was young, naive and desperately searching for a savior.

Shortly after I moved in with him, this man became verbally and physically abusive to me. The police were called by a neighbor who overheard my cries. Shortly there after, I became pregnant. At first, I planned on keeping the baby but partly due to family pressure and because of my own fears, I terminated the pregnancy. I've dealt with a lot of shame and guilt over this choice, but I never regret it.

Anyway, shortly before I turned 18, I started escorting — all the while attending AA meetings and financially supporting myself and my 51 year old boyfriend. It came to a point where I had enough of providing for the both of us and I kicked him out although continued to help him financially. Finally, at 18, I broke off all contact with this man. He had long since stopped going to AA. I stopped for a while too, but continued over the next few years. I was sober the entire time but living a life of shame, denial and abuse. There wasn't one meeting I went to where a man didn't try to hit on me afterwards. It got to the point where I put up a very hard front, giving dirty looks to any of the halfway house creeps who sat around the table staring at the women there.

I met many many people who seemed to be in desperate need of therapy and medical intervention. People who wouldn't take medication because they thought it would ruin their sobriety. Backstabbers who would smile at your face and then dish out the latest gossip once you left — I was guilty of that, too. So called "friends" who want nothing to do with you if you ever leave the program. I had a friend who dated a man from the program and he nearly killed her. She had to sit next to him once at a meeting afterwards. Nobody knew the "real" him because of the manipulation and persona he created. There are so many AA personas there that aren't real but made up to impress the others. And yes, I've also witnessed business owners recruiting newly sober people to work for them.

I don't really know where I'm going with this. The 51 year old man I moved in with died a few years later. He was found unconscious in a park; drinking again, he finally died from esophageal cancer. I was relieved I wouldn't see him anymore, to be honest. He told many people in AA about the abortion and attempted to further tarnish my reputation. I found a home group and made a lot of friends, nice genuine people. By the time I was 20, I was still going to AA and instead of falling for people's lies and abuse, I watched it happen around me. One young girl hung herself. She had been going to AA regularly and I remember her calling me for a ride to a meeting but I was unable to, I had to work. Not long after she committed suicide and I don't know what was going on in her life although I'm sure she dealt with her share of sexual propositions, too. Another guy hung himself a few years later. I just wish someone in AA or in their family could have helped them. So many times I went to AA depressed and broken and the meetings did nothing for me, the people ignored me and didn't seem to care... it was a lot of "politics" and fitting in with the long timers crowd.

I found a nice man a year or so ago and we became engaged. He has never been to AA and is a social drinker. My sponsor didn't think I was ready for a relationship even though I had been sober for 5 years, earning my university degree, working, etc. She stopped phoning me, we grew apart. I decided to have a drink one day over the holidays. Lo and behold, I stopped at one drink. I was an irresponsible, reckless teenager suffering from unresolved personal problems... I'm now a smart, competent, responsible woman. I've gone to therapy to resolve my personal issues. I find no problem with drinking occasionally and although I realize it's not the healthiest choice of refreshment, I can have just one and I have never been "drunk" since I quit drinking at 17. AA surrounded me with some great people but at an impressionable age, I was taken advantage of and used. I'm grateful for AA teaching me how to live sober but I really wish I had never fallen for so many lies.

So that's my story... thanks for your website. :) Please don't publish my name or e-mail.

Hello NoName,

Thank you for the horror story. I'm glad to hear that you have gotten your life together and are doing well. I'm adding this story to the list of A.A. Horror Stories.

Honestly, I seriously doubt that A.A. taught you how to live sober. I'm sure that some good people encouraged you to stay sober, but you did the learning and the work and the staying sober. And you survived what A.A. did to you. It sounds like A.A. hurt you more than helped you.

Oh well, have a good day and a good life now.

== Orange

*             orange@orange-papers.info        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     Underage binge drinking occurs more frequently if child
**     maltreatment such as neglect, physical and sexual abuse
**     is experienced, U.S. researchers said.
**        ==  UPI, March 4, 2009

[The previous letter from Randaron is here.]

[ Link here = http://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters355.html#Randaron ]

Date: Wed, May 22, 2013 6:35 pm       (answered 27 May 2013)
From: "Randaron"
Subject: All psychiatric evaluations since before 1935 results could not get in alcoholics sober

It is plain to see that you are dead set against Alcoholics Anonymous, And anyone who might believe that it works. So it would certainly stand reason that Anybody with resentment too the tune of yours Should reevaluate his entire position in life. People Usually have researched information as to their choices I went to many a psychologist and psychiatrist and in the end I would have pulled the trigger rather than get sober 20 years ago when I stopped drinking. It was not Alcoholics Anonymous nor the people in it that got me sober. Nor was it by choice no one on this planet no one in the psychological field not even Dr carl jung can induce a spiritual experience into another human being. most psychologists will blindly follow the Ravings of a madman called Sigmund Freud it would also seem that drug addict cannot fix a normal human being simply by giving them more drugs and yes I do understand that some people have a chemical imbalance not all people psychiatrist in self is one that is exempt to any mental issues according to you and your kind. at no time in my life have I never seen a psychologist work in anybody's life. but I have seen people that psychologists destroyed I also know how many that committed suicide after visiting the psychologist many people because there only interest is money

Sent from my Motorola Smartphone on the Now Network from Sprint!

Hello again, Randy,

Your subject line doesn't make much sense. If you are trying to say that psychiatrists could not sober up alcoholics before 1935, that is wrong. That is just A.A. propaganda, just some more of Bill's Bull, where Bill Wilson falsely claimed that A.A. was better at sobering up alcoholics than the organizations that came before it. Wrong.

Bill Wilson also declared that A.A. was better at sobering up alcoholics than "doctors and priests and ministers and psychiatrists". That is also wrong, just an outright lie.

Bill and A.A. experienced massive failure to sober up alcoholics, and Bill lied and said that A.A. worked great. Bill even claimed that A.A. was "the miracle of the century", and "probably one of the greatest medical and spiritual developments of all time."

But occasionally, when it suited him, he told the opposite story and revealed the truth, like when he was bragging at Dr. Bob's memorial service about how hard he and Dr. Bob had to work to establish A.A.:

You have no conception these days of how much failure we had. You had to cull over hundreds of these drunks to get a handful to take the bait.
Bill Wilson, at the memorial service for Dr. Bob, Nov. 15, 1952; file available here.

Those sure are some sweeping generalizations. And all untrue.

Date: Wed, May 22, 2013 6:38 pm       (answered 27 May 2013)
From: "Randaron"
Subject: And by the way

One person might not be able to set stand for a per-capita but one man's article is not the opinion of a half the world one man's article is only his opinion of what his observance is anybody can muck the numbers and I'll bet you're 100 percent successful at it every thing you do but yet will you ever admit to harming another human being with her mental exploits

Sent from my Motorola Smartphone on the Now Network from Sprint!

Randy, that doesn't make much sense either. Apparently, you are trying to dismiss facts that you don't like by using the Escape via Relativism propaganda trick: "It's just one man's opinion."

Date: Thu, May 23, 2013 1:56 am       (answered 27 May 2013)
From: "Randaron"
Subject: How much do you charge to get people sober

What is your success rate how many people at the end of their lives left your name on there tombstone. why was the book Alcoholics Anonymous said to be one of the 80 books changed human history the bending twisting of thought it's not for an alchemist many of the people in your peoples profession think they can bend and twist thoughts in order to repair a simple lie when the lie most people tell themselves long before they get to a psychiatrist. if in fact people come to you wanted to get better then why would they need your help so either or you're saying that a person that wants to stop drinking can without AA and a person that wants to think properly can do so without the help of a psychiatrist

Sent from my Motorola Smartphone on the Now Network from Sprint!

Randy, I do not charge people money. And I do not ask that people put my name on their tombstone. I don't even ask that they die.

The fact that the A.A. Big Book has influenced the failing "recovery industry" is not a good thing. It's just like how TIME magazine grouped Bill Wilson in with Adolf Hitler as two of the 100 most influential men of the 20th century. Yes, they were influential. But not for the good.

You are rambling. What "lie they tell themselves before they get to the psychiatrist" are you talking about?

This is illogical:

"if in fact people come to you wanted to get better then why would they need your help so either or you're saying that a person that wants to stop drinking can without AA and a person that wants to think properly can do so without the help of a psychiatrist"

== Orange

*             orange@orange-papers.info        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     "A useful idea has turned into a religious movement —
**     and a hindrance to research, psychiatry, and to many
**     alcoholics who need a different kind of help."
**        ==  Dr. Arthur H. Cain, Alcoholics Anonymous: Cult or Cure?,
**      Harper's Magazine, February 1963.

[The next letter from Randaron is here.]

[ Link here = http://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters355.html#Craig_J ]

Date: Mon, May 27, 2013 8:43 am       (answered 29 May 2013)
From: "Craig J"
Subject:

Why spend so much time slamming A.A. imagine you really would have something to whine about if 2 million of us collectively returned to drinking, ....driving, doing crime, taking up state and federal resources because we could not take care of normal things. Try reading all the text...with an open mind. The reality is that the world is a better place because of us. What do you bring to the table? Are you just taking up space...always looking for differences...a waste of skin? I used to be. So, what see you gonna do?

Hello Craig,

I did read the Big Book with an open mind, and I also went to A.A. and N.A. meetings with an open mind, really looking for something that would help me to quit drinking and stay sober, and I learned that A.A. was a load of bullshit, just another harmful cult religion. There is a huge difference between having an open mind and being gullible.

No way will 2 million of you collectively return to drinking, because there are not 2 million sober A.A. members in the whole world. The majority of A.A. members are already drinking — actually, never quit — and they will drop out of A.A. soon, and they will be replaced with more coerced people from the courts and treatment centers who will also never quit drinking and soon drop out.

And no, the world is not a better place because of A.A. Read the list of A.A. Horror Stories to see what A.A. is really doing to people.

I do offer better alternatives to A.A. Read this: How did you get to where you are?

Lastly, the slogan about not looking for the differences is just another standard cult characteristic — "Stop Thinking" — don't see the contradictions. No thanks, I'll keep my thinking mind anyway.

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             orange@orange-papers.info        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     Keeping an open mind is a virtue,
**     but not so open that your brains fall out.
**       ==  James Oberg

[The next letter from Craig_J is here.]

May 19, 2013, Sunday: The Fernhill Wetlands Unknown bird A birdwatcher told me what her name was, and I promptly forgot it. A gosling Two goslings eating whole wheat bread A mother and two of her babies, eating whole wheat bread [More gosling photos below, here.]

[The previous letter from Jeff_F is here.]

[ Link here = http://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters355.html#Jeff_F ]

Date: Sun, May 26, 2013 8:14 am       (answered 29 May 2013)
From: "Jeff F."
Subject: Attachment

I did have this PDF attached. Hope it gets through this time. It is a narrative that I wrote for an attorney interview, so he could better understand what these folks put me through. My counselor, Liz (Nurse Ratched) Beach represented herself as an LADC but the NH licensing agency tells me, that although she has a partial application in, she is not, nor has she ever been licensed in NH. She used her power to intimidate, abuse and ultimately hold me against my will in that 12 step holy house of horrors. I am counting down the days until I can depose that bitch. She has no idea the shit storm that is headed her way.

Thought you might enjoy the story.

Jeff in NH
Attachments:
Farnum_Narative.pdf
Size: 18 k
Type: application/pdf

Date: Sun, May 26, 2013 10:38 am       (answered 29 May 2013)
From: "Jeff F."
Subject: Rehab

They spent 52 days trying to unsuccessfully trying to convince me that there is a god. The fact that my counselor turns out to have misrepresented her professional credentials, suggests that perhaps there is, after all.

Your web site has been very helpful, especially in tracking down case law.

Jeff

Hello again, Jeff,

Yes, got the story this time. Thank you. That is quite a tale, and it sounds like you have a very good case. An unlicensed "LADC" foisting her favorite religion on people and further imprisoning them when they won't convert to her beliefs? Outrageous. And snitching you out to your parole officer for not sharing her religious beliefs is also defamation of character and slander, as well as false imprisonment.

Also, it seems like your parole officer is guilty of incompetence as well as false imprisonment and coercing you into a cult religion. He sentenced you to more imprisonment without even checking the credentials of the so-called "LADC" who was demanding that you be imprisoned longer, so that you would "get" her religion. Since when is it okay to sentence someone to more imprisonment on the say-so of a stranger who has no credentials and who is guilty of misrepresenting her qualifications?

The case of Inouye v. Kemna established that the INDIVIDUAL officials who coerce religion can be sued, not just their department. That means that the individual civil servants have to pay for their own lawyers, and pay the damages themselves. It's a very different thing from the state department being sued, and a state-paid lawyer handling the defense, and the state's insurance company paying the damages. The individual coercing bureaucrat is on the hook for everything.
For more details, look here and here.
And here: the Inouye v. Kemna case.
And here: the Inouye v. Kemna case.
And here: http://scholar.google.com/scholar_case?case=6773570865128492755&q;=504+F.3d+705&hl;=en&as;_sdt=2,6

Now that case occurred in a different Federal Circuit Court of Appeals, but it established a precedent.

Yes, please keep me informed about how this case is progressing. You know, this is all it takes to destroy the 12-Step empire. If enough people sue and win, the treatment centers will drop the coerced 12-Step religion faster than a hot potato. After all, they are only in it for the money.

Courts and parole officers will also drop their demands that people attend A.A. meetings when they find out how much it can cost them.

Then A.A. will shrivel up to nothing because coercive recruiting is the only thing that is keeping it going.

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             orange@orange-papers.info        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     He who does not punish evil commands it to be done.
**       == Leonardo daVinci

[ Link here = http://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters355.html#Steve_H ]

Date: Sat, May 25, 2013 6:10 pm       (answered 29 May 2013)
From: "Steven Hassan"
Subject: Latest list of media interviews of Steve Hassan re: Marathon Bombers and radicalization

NPR- Here and Now Sacha Pfeiffer filling in for Robin Young 4/26/13
http://hereandnow.wbur.org/2013/04/26/recruit-radicalize-hassan

PBS TV WGBH Greater Boston with Emily Rooney
http://www.wgbhnews.org/post/greater-boston-video-mind-control

CNN Erin Burnett OutFront Link 4/23/13k:
http://outfront.blogs.cnn.com/2013/04/23/officials-suspect-claims-they-were-self-radicalized-on-internet/

CNN Erin Burnett OutFront Link 4/24/13:
http://outfront.blogs.cnn.com/2013/04/24/question-of-influence-report-says-younger-tsarnaev-siblings-adored-older-brother/

Wall Street Journal Live
http://live.wsj.com/video/was-dzhokhar-tsarnaev-brainwashed/2AD32D6E-D689-464E-86A4-E912D1B73B8D.html#!2AD32D6E-D689-464E-86A4-E912D1B73B8D

NECN interview 4/25/13
http://www.necn.com/04/25/13/Radicalism-and-mind-control/landing_features.html?blockID=838993&feedID

FOX 25 Morning Segment link:
http://www.myfoxboston.com/video?clipId=8802177&topVideoCatNo=238258&autoStart=true

Radio interview with Lisa Evers 4/28/13
http://www.hot97.com/lisa-evers-street-soldiers/2013/04/28/the-terrorists-next-door

Ted Corless Radio 4/28/13
http://www.970wfla.com/cc-common/podcast/single_page.html?podcast=Newsmunchies&selected_podcast=4-28-13_News_Munchies_1367171217_5950.mp3

My latest book, Freedom of Mind: Helping Loved Ones Leave Controlling People, Cults and Beliefs is available on Amazon.com and other online booksellers as paperback and e-book
http://freedomofmind.com/Media/bookFreedom.php

Steven Alan Hassan M.Ed. LMHC, NCC
Freedom of Mind Resource Center Inc.
716 Beacon St. #590443
Newton MA. 02459
U.S.A.

http://www.freedomofmind.com

Twitter: http://twitter.com/cultexpert

Facebook: http://freedomofmind.com/facebook

Linkedin: http://www.linkedin.com/in/stevenhassan

"I know but one freedom & that is the freedom of the mind" Antoine de Saint-Exupéry

Hello again, Steve,

Okay, I'll post this and let people know.

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             orange@orange-papers.info        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     Since mind control depends on creating a new identity within
**     the individual, cult doctrine always requires that a person
**     distrust his own self.
**    ==  Combatting Cult Mind Control, Steven Hassan, 1988, page 79.
**    And that describes Alcoholics Anonymous exactly.

May 19, 2013, Sunday: The Fernhill Wetlands The Family of 7 Two Goslings eating rolled oats Cackling Geese There are still some of these guys hanging out here. They don't seem to be eager to fly back to Alaska just yet. Cackling Geese [The story of the goslings continues here.]

[ Link here = http://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters355.html#Keith_G ]

Date: Wed, May 29, 2013 6:39 am       (answered 1 June 2013)
From: "Keith G"
Subject: Wow

What a waste of energy. Your blasting of AA is not unique I have seen many take irrational and hateful stands and paint a picture that wasn't based on facts but appeared more to be a large emotionally charged rant.

I could point by point destroy your entire stance. But I won't waste my time. You seem to be convinced your are absolutely correct and there is no chance that there is any openness to another point of view.

I have never in 20 years had ANYONE try to convince me to join a religious body or tell me what "God" is. AA really has no desire to have anyone become a member that doesn't want to be. It is NOT promoted. Bill Wilson made clear he didn't have all the answers and that AA was not for everyone. He states "We only know a little" The whole of AA is an offer not a demand.

As to accusation that it is a "haven" for freaks AA is not perfect, there are a few (a very few) loose cannons that do not follow through with the steps. There are humans in AA as anywhere else. Look around you'll find them everywhere. Sick behaviors are not unique to AA.

I used to attend meetings with a certain antipathy, I enjoyed the company and discussions but did not care for the use of the word God. I was finally beaten up enough to lay my guns down and quit fighting the God word as alcohol beat me down badly once again. No one told me I had to believe in a certain way. I know letting go of old concepts of how the world ought to be and how others ought to treat me and following the directions in AA saved my life. I am not Christian nor do I practice any organized religion. HOWEVER something shifted in me that I cannot account for. God? Physic change? who knows but I know for a fact it wasn't I that did it on my intellect

Keith G.

Hello Keith,

Well, you started off with the standard A.A. ad hominem attack — attack the messenger, rather than the message. You offer no facts to support your attack, rather you claim that you can't be bothered with refuting my information.

If you really can refute my statements point by point, please do. Let's get the truth out on the table for all to see. Find something that I said that you don't like, and prove it false. Of course, your supporting evidence and information must be better than mine.

1. Your claim that no one tried to convert you to their religion does not invalidate all of the horror stories that I have received where sponsors did just that to their sponsees.

2. You wrote:

   AA really has no desire to have anyone become a member that doesn't want to be.
   

   Baloney. See the official A.A. document about "cooperating" with the courts in getting more people sentenced to A.A.:
   http://www.aa.org/en_pdfs/mg-05_coopwithcourt.pdf

   Almost two-thirds of the new A.A. members are forced, sentenced, pressured, cajoled, or blackmailed into attending A.A. meetings. Look here: The previous two A.A. triennial surveys have revealed how many unwilling victims were coerced into A.A.

3. It is NOT promoted.
   

   Untrue.

   • Ever heard of the Hallmark made-for-TV movies like "My Name is Bill W." and the recent glorification of Lois Wilson, "When Love Is Not Enough", which were some real fairy tales that had little to do with the truth?

   • Ever seen the commericials on late-night TV?
     

   • All the plugs in TV shows and movies?
     Cagney and Lacy, Hill Street Blues, ER, Dr. Phil, Dr. Drew, The West Wing, The History Detectives...

   • And then 28 Days, Clean and Sober, The Days of Wine and Roses... Look here for longer descriptions of some of those things.
     

   • Haven't you seen the magazine and newspaper articles promoting A.A.?
     Try reading these:
     • A.A.-Booster Pseudo-Science: Spirituality: The key to recovery from alcoholism
       
     • More A.A.-Booster Pseudo-Science: The Spiritual Dimension of Healing
     • More Big Lies — A.A. Propaganda As Usual
     • More A.A.-Booster Propaganda: the book Cults: Faith, Healing, and Coercion, by Marc Galanter
     • Five more fake-science AA-booster papers
     • Dr. Harry Tiebout: The First Fascist Mad Scientist of A.A.
     • Answer to a George Vaillant Speech

   • The promotion is non-stop. A.A. has quite a propaganda machine.
     

4. Bill Wilson made clear he didn't have all the answers and that AA was not for everyone. He states "We only know a little" The whole of AA is an offer not a demand.
   

   Also untrue. Bill Wilson talked out of both sides of his mouth on many issues, including that one. He also declared that A.A. was the only way, and that A.A. knew more than doctors or psychiatrists or ministers or priests. Then it turned into "Work the Steps or Die!"

   First, in order to sound reasonable to prospects, Bill wrote:

   Our book is meant to be suggestive only. We realize we know only a little.
   The Big Book, 3rd Edition, William G. Wilson, A Vision For You, page 164.

   Perhaps you are not quite in sympathy with the approach we suggest. By no means do we offer it as the last word on this subject...
   The Big Book, 3rd edition, William G. Wilson, page 144.

   It would be a product of false pride to claim that A.A. is a cure-all, even for alcoholism.
   As Bill Sees It, quotes from William G. Wilson, published by A.A.W.S., page 285.

   But then Bill wrote:

   Any willing newcomer feels sure A.A. is the only safe harbor for the foundering vessel he has become.
   Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions, William G. Wilson, page 35.

   For most cases, there is virtually no other solution.
   The Big Book, 3rd Edition, William G. Wilson, page 43.

   ... you may be suffering from an illness which only a spiritual experience will conquer.     ...
   At first some of us tried to avoid the issue, hoping against hope we were not true alcoholics. But after a while we had to face the fact that we must find a spiritual basis of life — or else.
   The Big Book, 3rd Edition, William G. Wilson, page 44.

   "Or else", indeed.

   And Bill Wilson put this self-congratulatory lunatic babbling in the Big Book:

   Here was a book that said that I could do something that all these doctors and priests and ministers and psychiatrists that I'd been going to for years couldn't do!
   The Big Book, 3rd Edition, page 473.
   

   Finally, Bill Wilson wrote that you must do all of Bill Wilson's Twelve Steps all of the time, or else you are "signing your own death warrant".

   Unless each A.A. member follows to the best of his ability our suggested [Bill Wilson's required] Twelve Steps to recovery, he almost certainly signs his own death warrant. His drunkenness and dissolution are not penalties inflicted by people in authority; they result from his personal disobedience to spiritual principles [Bill Wilson's cult religion practices].
   Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions, William G. Wilson, page 174.

   There is much more of that listed under this bait-and-switch trick: First, Bill Wilson declared that Alcoholics Anonymous was only one of many ways to achieve sobriety, then he declared that it was The Only Way.

5. About A.A. being "a haven for freaks", actually, I never said that. You did. What I said was that there are a lot of mentally-ill people who should be seeing a psychiatrist, and there are a lot of criminals whom the judge or parole officer sentenced to A.A. meetings. And there are sexual predators who like the supply of fresh meat that A.A. meetings provide. And there are narcissistic people who like lording it over the new sponsees. And there are the con artists who find cloudy-headed newly-detoxed people to be easy victims.

6. Then you repeated the standard A.A. slogan about "letting go of old concepts of how the world ought to be..." What old concepts? Like the concepts that people should not lie or steal or rape or kill or exploit others? Those old concepts? Are you getting rid of them?

   So what old concepts are you getting rid of? Please be very specific.

7. Lastly, "what shifted in you" was your mind. The A.A. brainwashing took effect after a while, and you started repeating the A.A. slogans in an unthinking manner.

== Orange

*             orange@orange-papers.info        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     Time's glory is to calm contending kings,
**     To unmask falsehood, and bring truth to light.
**       ==  William Shakespeare  (1564—1616), The Rape of Lucrece, Line 939

[The next letter from Keith_G is here.]

May 27, 2013, Monday, Memorial Day: The Fernhill Wetlands 3 of the Family of 4, eating bread. One of the goslings wasn't missing. (You can see the tip of the tail of the 4th one on the left edge of the picture.) I just had a telephoto lens on the camera, which had such a narrow field of vision that I couldn't get all four babies in the picture at the same time. 2 of the Family of 4, wanting more bread. 3 of the Family of 4. The almost-black mongrel duck. He is also one of my regulars. He comes running for munchies when he sees me. [The story of the goslings continues here.]

[ Link here = http://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters355.html#Monica_R ]

Date: Wed, May 29, 2013 10:09 am       (answered 2 June 2013)
From: "Monica R."
Subject: Reviewing AA on Yelp

http://www.yelp.com/biz/alcoholics-anonymous-los-angeles

please review AA on yelp if you want and lets get the word out!

Thanks
Monica

Ah, what a good idea. And if I'm not mistaken, that is near the headquarters of Clancy Imusland, the new A.A. cult leader.

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             orange@orange-papers.info        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     "Alcohol Abuse doesn't need people like you besmirching its reputation."
**       ==  Randy Rhodes, spoofing a Congressman who went after young boys
**           and then blamed it on alcohol — a comedy routine on the
**           Randy Rhodes Show.

[The previous letter from Randaron is here.]

Well I care. I know that Buddhists and Hindus say that on the highest level of reality there is only the pure Void, crystaline undisturbed Consciousness, so nothing can really be destroyed, and there is nothing to get uptight about, but down here on this level we are supposed to work to make things better. Down here on this level we are supposed to care.

Baba Ram Dass made the statement in his book about "How Can I Be Of Service" that you cannot give it all up until you have it all together.

Have a good day now.