Date: Fri, June 4, 2010 3:43 pm (answered 20 June 2010)
From: "Soussherpa"
Subject: Hi Orange
A PBS Show called 'History Detectives' did an episode called: Alcoholics Anonynous
letter. Here is a brief summary:
A man from Laurel, Maryland owns a mysterious letter that was written in 1942. It's
a tribute addressed to his grandmother on the occasion of his grandfather, Herbert
Wallace's death, acknowledging Wallace's support for the organization Alcoholics
Anonymous.
I only saw the last 5 minutes of it, and it was a puff piece. I guess I couldn't
expect an exposé on AA.
You might find somethin' in it though; Here is a link, It might have the whole
episode on the site (They're only like ten minutes long). Maybe you can find some of
things you wanna get.
Yes, I saw that episode when it first aired more than three years ago, and I taped it then.
I have been meaning to write up a criticism of it — another thing to do.
That episode was disgusting, so bad that I lost my taste
for the series "History Detectives".
Up until then, I thought that "History Detectives" was pretty good,
and that they actually cared about accurate history.
But that episode was so bad that it was a serious departure from the truth.
There was no attempt to be accurate or truthful.
They had Mel Barger ("Mel B.") on the show, breaking his anonymity and
telling a bunch of lies,
and Gwen was just gushing propaganda like "And A.A. is the best thing in the world
for alcoholics..."
I had to wonder if Gwen is another hidden member of A.A.
The Alcoholics Anonymous propaganda machine never rests.
The "History Detectives" never used their "detective skills"
to ask the important questions like,
"Does A.A. actually work to make alcoholics quit drinking?"
"What is the A.A. success rate?"
"What is the A.A. suicide rate?"
"What kind of a con artist was Bill Wilson?"
"How is Dr. Frank Buchman's pro-Nazi cult religion supposed to cure alcoholism?"
Now, if they want to do some real sleuthing, they can do another show to
discover the answer to the question,
"How did we allow a cult religion to dupe us into broadcasting their untrue propaganda?"
Oh well, have a good day anyway.
== Orange
* orange@orange-papers.info *
* AA and Recovery Cult Debunking *
* http://www.Orange-Papers.org/ *
** Don't compromise yourself.
** You are all you've got.
** == Janis Joplin (1943—1970), American singer
Date: Wed, June 2, 2010 4:07 pm (answered 20 June 2010)
From: "john b."
Subject: thanks.................the "real" AA
What a body of work, and very well organized and explained in detail. I have
recently reached a problem drinking crisis, and started back into AA after a 14 year
hiatus. I saw all the creepy, dysfunctional, and cult-like behavior that sent me
packing back in '96. Glad that someone has taken the time and effort to document and
discuss this as well as you did. I think that a paperback edition would sell very
well, and would be the first in line to buy one.
In my estimation, AA is almost as creepy and pathetic as the Catholic Church clergy
that I grew up with. Just glad that I didn't have to be molested by
either.........Sheesh! BTW, your You-Tube stuff is
great!
cheers, John
Hi John,
Thank you for the letter, and thanks for the compliments.
But there is one compliment that I cannot accept — the videos are not mine.
I've never done one video yet (and when I do, the first ones will be about cute
little goslings). Those videos are done by James and Mike and Blame DeNile.
* orange@orange-papers.info *
* AA and Recovery Cult Debunking *
* http://www.Orange-Papers.org/ *
** If only we'd stop trying to be happy,
** we could have a pretty good time.
** == Edith Wharton (1862—1937), American writer
Date: Wed, June 2, 2010 8:55 pm (answered 21 June 2010)
From: "W. David P." <w.david.porter {at} qpsu.net>
Subject: Publishing a Book
Hi Orange,
I've written to you before. I am in AA in Brisbane, Queensland,
Australia. I love your site. I am an atheist and I am not doing the
steps.
As long as there's a Third Tradition, I'll keep going to AA because
I need to be reminded what alcohol does to me. I can easily forget. If
I forget what alcohol does to me, I'll drink it. If I remember what it
does to me, no way will I drink it. You don't have to be insane to
forget, you just have to forget.
The real point of my letter is this: I know you've been asked many
times about writing a book. I appreciate the answers to this. But I
believe you've made a very important contribution to human knowledge
with your site. I'd love to see you rewrite this as a doctoral thesis.
I think you deserve it for the work you've done. The contribution to
society you have made needs to be formally recognised. I hope you
reconsider.
(please retain my email address. I'd love to hear from others in my
city who are also atheist)
Kind Regards,
W. David P.
Hello David,
Thanks for the letter, and thanks for the compliments. And hello, Australia.
My reaction to the book was, "Oh God! More work to do. I also have to get the forum working,
and get caught up on email,
and all that I want to do is retire and go down to the beach and play with cute little
goslings."
Hmmm, I'll have to think about it, and try to enhance some motivation.
A doctoral dissertation sounds tempting, considering that I dropped out of college at Berkeley
in the 'sixties, and never even got a B.A.
Speaking of "enhancing motivation", that is actually a phrase from
SMART.
The is one of
the goals of SMART training. When you were talking about remembering what alcohol does to
you, I was thinking, "Cost-Benefit Analysis". That is a technique that SMART teaches.
The idea is just to list both the benefits and bad results from drinking, and compare
the two lists, and ask, "What do I really want?"
There are examples of cost-benefit analyses
here and
here and
here.
I also like the slogan,
"Play the tape to the end."
You envision the situation like a movie on videotape, and you don't just look at the next few
hours and how much fun drinking may seem to be; you play the tape to the end and see
suffering and sickness and poverty and shame, and even death.
Works for me.
Have a good day now.
== Orange
* orange@orange-papers.info *
* AA and Recovery Cult Debunking *
* http://www.Orange-Papers.org/ *
** Life is what happens to you
** while you are making other plans.
** == Betty Talmadge (b. 1924), American meat broker
June 21, 2010:
Happy Summer Solstice, y'all.
Oh, and aren't you glad that you are not a member of the Solar Temple?
No need to commit suicide today.
May 18, 2009, Monday: Day 18, continued:
Canada Goose goslings
One gosling has a cheese puff, and the other one wants it — or at least some of it.
i think you will probably not learn much from this as it sounds very much
like stuff you are already aware of, but i thought you might be interested
anyway.
Hi John,
Thanks for the links. I'll have to check them out.
I like François Tremblay, I've read some of his stuff before.
Have a good day now.
== Orange
* orange@orange-papers.info *
* AA and Recovery Cult Debunking *
* http://www.Orange-Papers.org/ *
** One wonders what would happen in a society in which
** there were no rules to break.
** Doubtless everyone would quickly die of boredom.
** == Susan Howatch (b. 1940), British writer
Date: Thu, May 27, 2010 2:31 pm (answered 21 June 2010)
From: "Steve C."
Subject: AA comics !!!
Yes, and they also have Al-Anon comics, and drug comics, and all
kinds of stuff. And aren't those just some of the worst comics in the world?
Hmmmm, Daddy has "a disease", she says. So does she take him to the
hospital to get his "disease" fixed up? No, they go play in the park,
and leave him to rot. Al-Anon gives such good advice. Not!
Oh well, have a good day anyway.
== Orange
* orange@orange-papers.info *
* AA and Recovery Cult Debunking *
* http://www.Orange-Papers.org/ *
** I don't wait for moods. You accomplish nothing if you do that.
** Your mind must know it has got to get down to earth.
** == Pearl S. Buck (1892—1973), American writer
Date: Fri, May 28, 2010 10:57 am (answered 21 June 2010)
From: "adrian s."
Subject:
Hi Orange,
Thanks for putting together a very interesting website. Glad to know
I'm not the only one that thinks AA is a cult and based on lies. The
trouble is that a good lie always contains a grain of truth. When they
said if you don't have the first drink, you can't get drunk, that was
true. The rest was bullshit. Anyway, I wasted nine years in AA. Your
website has been very helpful in helping me to deprogram.
From the first time I heard How It Works I knew something wasn't right. I was
expecting a medical definition or something based on empirical research, not
religious indoctrination. I guess I was just too messed up to fit in anywhere else.
I'm a great believer in deductive reasoning. (It's much more reliable than the
paralogic I used to hear in AA.) Didn't Arthur Conan Doyle write 'When you eliminate
the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, is the truth' ?
It really used to piss me off when people made assertions that they couldn't back
up. I figured that if I really wanted to stay sober, I just had to avoid having the
first drink, but they wanted me to do all sorts of weird stuff. I set out to prove
that staying sober was solely dependent on not having the first drink, as a living
example by:
Refusing to get a sponsor
Refusing to do the 12 steps
Observing that I have enough power over alcohol to say no every time someone
offers me a drink and that learned helplessness does not teach people to be
responsible for their behaviour
Pointing out that pretending to believe in something that I really don't believe
in is an act of self delusion rather than the beginning of a restoration to sanity.
Psychiatrists call that magical thinking.
Pointing out that handing my will and my life over to the care of what I consider
to be a figment of other people's imagination is a further act of insanity.
Noting that self abasement does not lead to self esteem. Setting appropriate
boundaries, achieving goals and making good life choices does.
Suggesting that giving a higher power credit for me getting off my arse and doing
something about my life also stunts development of any sort of healthy self esteem.
Suggesting that as I generally wear the consequences of my decisions, it would be
more productive to actively think about the consequences of my behaviour and seek
qualified advice when necessary, rather than waiting for God or some other AA
do-gooder to give me unqualified, unsolicited advice.
Noting that if I ever start to hear God's voice or anyone else's talking to me
inside my head that I am in severe need of psychiatric care.
Listening to multiple hours of blatantly Satanic heavy metal every day. (The
urge to do this seems to have dissipated since I've left the foul taste of AA's
brand of spirituality behind me.)
Literally wiping my backside with well over 50 pages of AA's sacred big book,
(Mainly Chapter 3 and How It Works)
Literally burning the remaining pages of AA's big book.
Flagrantly spouting profanity, heresy and blasphemy from the floor of meetings.
Pointing out that no one ever got lung cancer from swearing too much.
Suggesting that smoking kills far more alcoholics than swearing and noting that
I quit successfully smoking 12 months before going to AA and ever hearing about the
12 steps. I used to suggest not having the first cigarette... but that was too
simple.
Pointing out that How it Works should really say 'Rarely have we seen a person
succeed'
Suggesting that if the omnipotent deity mentioned at the end of How It Works
has
failed to intervene in the plight of the six million Jews exterminated by the Nazis
or the starving children around the world that die every three seconds, He is very
unlikely to intervene in the plight of the average alcoholic.
And finally refusing to go to meetings anymore..... Day at at time, I haven't
been to a meeting in two years, nine months and 11 days, and I'm still sober, but
who's counting?
It reminds of that story about the emperor's new clothes..... There's just some
aspects about AA that make any rational person want to stand up and holler "it's
bullshit". Apparently,
Penn and Teller
did just that.
Strangely, members always used
to talk about how mentally unwell people were that didn't go to meetings, but AA has
the highest concentration of mentally unwell misfits I've seen anywhere.
In my time in AA I saw some of the most dishonest/parasitic/amoral/psychotic people
I've ever met stay sober and I've seen people that could recite the big book word
for word go out and get drunk..... I guess they missed the part about not having
the first drink.
I remember sitting in a meeting where they mentioned God 56 times in an hour, but
didn't mention not having the first drink. I was the last speaker so I posed the
rhetorical question 'If a minister mentioned alcohol 56 times in a sermon but didn't
mention God, would churchgoers begin to feel like they were in the wrong place?'.
People just didn't get. It was like the logical part of their brain was switched
off.... Needless to say they finished with the serenity prayer.
There's something disturbingly Orwellian about it. Have you read the book 1984?
Winston Smith is being interrogated and he's in such pain that he's willing to make
himself believe that the interrogator is holding up five fingers instead of four,
just so that the interrogation will end. I used to see a lot of that in AA. It was
like people were so desperate to belong that in the end they would prostitute their
mind and give in to the dogma just to be accepted.
I'm still a misfit. I still crave acceptance. I'm still wearing the consequences of
bad life choices I made when I was younger, but I'm so glad that I don't have cult
religion masquerading as self-help exacerbating my problems anymore. Having released
a couple of years of vitriol on AA, I suppose I should try to think of something
positive to end on.... Now that I think about it, I do remember an older member
suggesting two requirements for enjoying a sober life, both of which appear to be
true.... Don't Drink, Don't die.
Regards,
Adrian.
Hello Adrian,
Thanks for a great letter. That really nails it.
And yes, I've read 1984. In fact, I just used a quote from it as a signature
recently. Oh what the heck, I'll use it again. See below.
And yes, Penn and Teller did a really funny program that just shredded A.A.
Try these links:
* orange@orange-papers.info *
* AA and Recovery Cult Debunking *
* http://www.Orange-Papers.org/ *
**
** "Don't you see that the whole aim of Newspeak is to narrow the range
** of thought? Has it ever occurred to you, Winston, that by the year
** 2050, at the very latest, not a single human being will be alive who
** could understand such a conversation as we are having now? The whole
** climate of thought will be different. In fact, there will be no
** thought, as we understand it now. Orthodoxy means not thinking —
** not needing to think. Orthodoxy is unconsciousness."
** == George Orwell's 1984, Syme, pages 46-47
Date: Thu, May 27, 2010 6:58 pm (answered 22 June 2010)
From: "Linda C."
Subject: Orange You Glad I didnt say BANANNA?
I searched for U turn 4 Christ and your Paper #51 came up about They
resect NOONE?
ARE YOU AGAINST U TURN $ CHRIST?
I am on the fence THUS FAR THEY HAVE BEEN LIARS AND SCReY
They have been disrespectfull.
and abuseive.
THEY have abused and scared children as well as adults!
linda ann c.
Hello Linda,
Thanks for the letter. That was as little hard to understand.
I'm not sure what "paper #51" you are referring to.
But to proceed in general terms, I think you are objecting to how
A.A. respects no one. Yes, that is a problem. I think
Penn and Teller
said it best in their criticism of A.A.
— They said that "A.A. has absolutely no respect for alcoholics."
The web page that you will probably like the most is
The Heresy of the Twelve Steps.
There, I go down the list of ways in which the A.A. theology is incompatible with
Christianity.
Have a good day now.
== Orange
* orange@orange-papers.info *
* AA and Recovery Cult Debunking *
* http://www.Orange-Papers.org/ *
** Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one
** of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
** == Jesus Christ (Matthew 25:40)
Date: Sat, May 29, 2010 5:18 pm (answered 22 June 2010)
From: chiro
Subject: Your critique of Bill Wilsons Big Book
It is easier to destroy that to create.
Why not start your own version of recovery, write your own Big Book and call me in
70 years if you have even close to the following or success rate of Alcoholics
Anonymous around the world.
Until then, youre just another Critic, and not a Creator...
FYI
Jesus is alive and has saved many a hopeless drunk. Who have you helped lately,
other than yourself?
Hello Chiro,
Thanks for the letter. I have, in fact, started my own program. It is called
"Do It Yourself Without Heretical Cult Religion".
(Actually, that isn't very original;
lots of other people have done it too.)
In addition, there are many other methods and groups that work better than A.A., and
I list and recommend them often.
Here is the list.
If you want to talk about Jesus, then you really must read the file:
The Heresy of the Twelve Steps.
You should be aware of the fact that A.A. theology is in direct conflict with
the teachings of Christianity. A.A. theology resembles Satan-worship more than it
resembles Christianity.
(Does
"G.O.D. = Group Of Drunks", or does
"G.O.D. = Good Orderly Direction",
or does "G.O.D. = Group Of Devils"?)
Have a good day now.
== Orange
* orange@orange-papers.info *
* AA and Recovery Cult Debunking *
* http://www.Orange-Papers.org/ *
** There are no more thorough prudes
** than those who have some little secret to hide.
** == George Sand (1804—1876), French writer
Date: Sat, May 29, 2010 6:29 pm (answered 22 June 2010)
From: "S"
Subject: Pacific Group
I read
your 9 items on the Pacific Group.
I am curious if you are still sober and living in Southern California.
I was wondering if you would like to speak at a function.
Steve
Hello Steve,
Yes, I am still sober, but I don't live in Southern California. The smog drove me out
of there in 1969, and I haven't lived there since.
I guess I wouldn't mind speaking at a function, but it would have to be closer.
And when it comes to the Pacific Group, I think that someone who was in it would be
a better choice.
Have a good day now.
== Orange
* orange@orange-papers.info *
* AA and Recovery Cult Debunking *
* http://www.Orange-Papers.org/ *
** "The power of accurate observation is frequently
** called cynicism by those who don't have it."
** == George Bernard Shaw (1856—1950)
Date: Sat, May 29, 2010 10:31 pm (answered 22 June 2010)
From: "ric g"
Subject: are you for or against AA?
are you for or against AA?
Hi Ric,
Is this a trick question, or are you joking, or have you just not read any of my
web site?
Well, the answer to your question is: I am opposed to quacks foisting
ineffective fake medicines and treatments
on sick people, and lying about their success rate.
That means that I am opposed to both Scientology and Alcoholics Anonymous, and
a bunch of other frauds and charlatons, too.
Have a good day now.
== Orange
* orange@orange-papers.info *
* AA and Recovery Cult Debunking *
* http://www.Orange-Papers.org/ *
** "Good judgement is usually the result of experience.
** And experience is frequently the result of bad judgement."
** == Anonymous, saying passed from Robert Lovert to
** Robert F. Kennedy during the Cuban Missile Crisis.
Date: Sun, May 30, 2010 7:05 am (answered 22 June 2010)
From: "Gary J."
Subject: Carrying the Message
After reading of
the bashing of SMART Recovery in a NY Daily News article
I began to
wonder if the steppers are getting worried about alternatives becoming more well
known. Up until now their line was that if a different approach works for some then
they accept it. However in many on line forums posts critical of AA get deleted or
it is implied that differing from AA endangers lives. It may be dawning on them that
when people go to a search engine to seek help with addictions that they find many
non 12 step resources. I predict that some steppers will become more frantic and
desperate to silence voices like SMART, SOS, and RR. because in an open discussion
where all sides get a hearing their approach comes to look rather dated and
ineffective. If they had there way the First Amendment would be replaced with the
words "no cross talk."
I recommend that people intervene in some of the open forums about sobriety that
exist on sites like tribe dot net and other social networks. Those forums get many
people who are looking for answers and if presented with alternatives to AA they
will listen. Those of us opposed to the AA cult need to carry the message.
Gary
Hi Gary,
Thanks for the letter, and I couldn't agree more.
I think that the Steppers are afraid of several things:
If people hear the truth about all of the various treatment modes, they may well
choose something besides "Twelve-Step Facilitation".
That can lead to unemployment for the A.A. members who work at the 12-Step "treatment
center". And that can lead to the loss of millions or billions of dollars for the
quacks who run the treatment centers.
A.A. members do not wish to hear that they wasted many years of their lives
in a stupid cult religion. That thought is unbearable for many.
They also can't stand the idea that they are just plain old wrong.
If everybody quits A.A., then the hard-core Steppers will be left alone to talk to
themselves. And they fear that without a "support group", they will die.
Besides, God will get mad if they don't make lots of newcomers
"Seek and Do the Will of God".
And some deluded Steppers actually believe their own crazy dogma about how
"A.A. is the only thing that works", so steering a sick person to a different treatment
program is supposedly sending him to his death.
If the groups don't have a stream of newcomers coming into the rooms, then who
will worship and admire the old-timers?
Who will listen to the bragging and pontificating of the old-timers?
A.A. members do not wish to be embarrassed by people laughing at their
superstitious nonsense. A.A. members do not want people to think that Steppers have
wasted years on stupid cult religion. And Steppers really don't want people to think
that Steppers are just promoting quack medicine.
I agree that posting to forums is a very good idea. We have to keep getting the
truth out there. The A.A. propaganda machine never sleeps, and never stops broadcasting
their misinformation and lies.
We have to counter that stream of falsehoods by telling the truth often.
Have a good day now.
== Orange
* orange@orange-papers.info *
* AA and Recovery Cult Debunking *
* http://www.Orange-Papers.org/ *
** All things are at odds when God sets a thinker loose on the planet.
** == Edith Hamilton
Date: Sun, May 30, 2010 9:33 am (answered 22 June 2010)
From: "Matt Mirmak"
Subject: Follow up on Minneapolis Foxhall AA group
Hi Orange:
Love your work and this exposure that you giving has inspired me to work harder on
my campaign to reform our nation's drug policy laws, including legalization of all
drugs and stopping judges from automatically referring people to AA.
A follow up to my story about the Foxhall AA group in Minneapolis which was a lot
like the Midtown AA group in Washington DC. I no longer attend AA meetings nor do
I wish to ever enter that room full of self loathing and self defeating
personalities again. What you website and people like Stanton Peele did for me was
realize that I am not powerless at all. I needed some self confidence to empower
myself to change my own behavior. While I still do not choose to drink, I give
credit to one person who made this possible. ME. I do believe in a God and that
he/she/whatever gave me a brain to deduce logic and make reasonable assumptions
about what is right and wrong. In other words, I have been given the power to set
my own destiny.
It's been three and half years since I set foot in a meeting and I feel like the
weight of self doubt and defeat has been lifted from me. Thank you for your web
site and the only thing I have to say is that you and others helped me realize that
life is not confined to meetings and repetitive drunkalogues. Why it took me 14
years to turn the corner I will never know. But as Satchel Paige once said "Don't
Look Back." And I intend to keep on walking living my own life indepedent of
anybody who wishes to impose their will on me for the purposes of enslavement.
Once again, thank you from the bottom of my heart.
I don't care if you use my real name. I fear no human being.
Matt Mirmak
P.S. I moved from Minneapolis 4 years ago and now life a happy family life in
Irvine, CA. Away from the AA freaks mind you. I tried to go to meetings here and
they sucked ass worse than the cult in Minneapolis.
Hi Matt,
Thank you for the letter, and congratulations on your new sanity and freedom.
And thanks for the thanks. I'm glad that you found something useful in my pages.
So have a good day now, and a good life.
== Orange
* orange@orange-papers.info *
* AA and Recovery Cult Debunking *
* http://www.Orange-Papers.org/ *
** I have always noticed that people will never
** laugh at anything that is not based on truth.
** == Will Rogers
Date: Tue, April 20, 2010 6:19 pm (answered 22 June 2010)
From: "Terri"
Subject: Hi Terry! Found some photos & Article
Hi Terry,
I hope this note finds you doing well. All is well here, very well in fact. After
three and a half years of putting myself back together, I am ready to begin job
hunting soon. Damn the economy, full speed ahead!
Please forgive me for this long space between making contact. News: I have located
one roll of prints that I took at Dr. Bob's house. However, there are more to be
found. I plan to work on photos for a couple of hours tonight. I will try and get
what I have so far in the mail to you soon. I will send an email when they are on
the way. Maybe I should also get verification of your address before I mail what I
have since it has been a while.
I thought this article in the NY Times today would be of interest to you. Several
interesting things here. The questions in the last paragraph got my attention! So
did the comment about people don't really care whether Bill W's spiritual awakening
was drug-induced or not!! Oh, so funny!
By the way, occassionally I speak with professionals who refer people to AA. I
always let them know that I quit. That brings up good discussion. Most seem very
puzzled by my candor. When they question me, I remind them that I was in the cult
for 4 decades (including childhood) and that I attended over 3,000 meetings. That
seems to get their attention! Oh, I never miss an opportunity to have some
fun....really though, my intent is to just make them question AA a little. I am very
respectful when I speak to others about my experience.
While writing this email, a peace came over me. I am truly appreciative of being
free from AA. I'll be sober for 28 years in May, free from AA for 3.5 years and
happier than I have been in a long long time. Thank you so much, Terry for Agent
Orange website. It was tremendously supportive after I made the break, gave me
needed facts, validated and reinforced my decision to just quit. That just might be
the best decision I ever made. Thanks also for accepting all my "stuff" (cult
literature). It made me feel very good to pass it on to you.
Cheers,
Terri
Hi again, Terri,
Thanks for the letter and compliments. I'm glad to hear that you are feeling good,
and healthy and sober. And cult-free.
And thanks for all of the A.A. swag.
And those photos will be interesting.
Have a good day, and a good life.
== Orange
* orange@orange-papers.info *
* AA and Recovery Cult Debunking *
* http://www.Orange-Papers.org/ *
** Those who corrupt the public mind are just as evil as
** those who steal from the public purse.
** == Adlai Stevenson, speech in Albuquerque, New Mexico, 1952
Date: Tue, June 8, 2010 2:47 am (answered 22 June 2010)
From: "Annette P."
Subject: Love it love it!!! LOVE IT!
Hi.
LOVE The Orange Papers.
Thank you so much for your work.
No time to waste. Reading.
Best Best BEST regards,
Annette.
( HUG )
Hi Annette,
Thanks for the good thoughts and the compliments.
Have a good day now.
== Orange
* orange@orange-papers.info *
* AA and Recovery Cult Debunking *
* http://www.Orange-Papers.org/ *
** He only earns his freedom and existence who daily conquers them anew.
** == Johann Wolfgang von Goethe, Faust, 1832
Date: Sat, June 5, 2010 8:03 pm (answered 22 June 2010)
From: "Sarah D."
Subject: A FRIENDLY hello from an AA gal
I do swear to you that I mean for this email to be completely friendly — I'm sure
that you get quite a few verbal assaults in your inbox from various members of AA,
and I don't think that's particularly fair to you.
First, a couple of things about me. I have been in AA for just over 11 months. I
was sent to rehab -> AA by the courts, as a condition for getting custody of my
children. At the time, I didn't really question it, I just kind of was doing
whatever I had to to make sure I got custody and not my mess of an ex. I am a
fairly smart girl though (I am a member of MENSA), and my rational mind often makes
me question the "how and why" of the program.
I was honestly wondering about your personal background — if you have personally had
any experiences with being a member of AA or have an addiction to something that you
had a tough time conquering.
I also am a copy editor, and as far as your AA-cult website goes, I have to give you
honest feedback in that while your arguments do make good, rational sense, they are
not very well cited. Obviously, the links work, but when you cite books, you are
supposed to list the page number. Many things do not list the page numbers so that
people are able to find this information to back up your arguments, and in a 500
page book, that can be kind of important. You will probably be able to make many
more people see at least the VALIDITY of your arguments if you have more clear and
valid citations for quotes and whatnot.
Other than that, keep up the good job of playing devil's advocate, good luck, and
I'll keep trying to rationally figure this addiction thing out on my end, maybe
without the help of AA.
Thanks for what you do, sincerely,
Sarah D.
Hello Sarah,
Thanks for the letter.
Well, starting at the top:
My personal history is that I am an old hippie who has taken most of the drugs
known to man, and I smoked tobacco for 30 years and drank too much alcohol for nearly 20.
And yes, I've been to A.A. and N.A. meetings.
The list of biographical items is
here.
About page numbers on quotes and footnotes, I honestly don't know what you are reading.
I always put page numbers on those quotes and footnotes. I can only remember two
or three citations in the whole web site where I was not able to supply the page number,
due to an error in taking notes.
Now there are usually no page numbers on the quotations that I use for signatures to
letters. That is just because I get those quotes from books of quotations that don't
tell the page numbers of the original source.
Please keep on thinking for yourself, and using your intelligence,
and asking,
"How the heck is this thing supposed to work?
God will grant my wishes because I confess what an unspiritual slob I am?
And exactly which church or religion teaches that?"
Have a good day.
== Orange
* orange@orange-papers.info *
* AA and Recovery Cult Debunking *
* http://www.Orange-Papers.org/ *
** No civil liberties battle is ever won — permanently.
** == Roger Baldwin, founder of the American Civil Liberties Union
Date: Sat, June 5, 2010 11:35 pm (answered 22 June 2010)
From: "Sally T."
Subject: aa
Hello
wow...interesting reading..could you please tell me in which countries you have
attended aa meetings in?????? they sound alot more interesting then what we have
here in New Zealand
thank
Sally T
good luck with your soberity
Hi Sally,
I attended A.A. and N.A. meetings in the U.S.A., in Oregon and New Mexico.
I'm sorry to hear that meetings in New Zealand are so boring. But then again,
the New Zealanders that I have met were always a nicer grade of people.
Maybe that has something to do with it.
Have a good day now.
== Orange
* orange@orange-papers.info *
* AA and Recovery Cult Debunking *
* http://www.Orange-Papers.org/ *
** America is the only nation in history which miraculously has gone from
** barbarism to degeneracy without the usual interval of civilization.
** == Georges Clemenceau, quoted in the Saturday Review, December 1, 1945
All I can say is WOW and you must have no clue as to what you are
talking about. The only reason I am sober today is that God gifted me the
program of AA.
This
(http://www.orange-papers.info/orange-secrets.html)
is the most
ridicules thing I have read in FOREVER!! No wonder why some people think
badly of AA. From what I have seen...my own personal experience.* THE ONLY
PEOPLE THAT FAIL HERE* in the rooms of AA, are the ones who are incapable of
being honest with THEMSELVES.... or they just haven't figure it out. Alcohol
is poison to an alcoholic. This is the most important part of the
book...... "*Rarely* have we seen a person fail who has thoroughly followed
our path. Those who do not recover are people *who cannot or will not
completely* give themselves to this simple program, usually men and women
who are constitutionally incapable of being honest with themselves. There
are such unfortunates. They are not at fault; they seem to have been born
that way. They are naturally incapable of grasping and developing a manner
of living which demands rigorous honesty. Their chances are less than
average. There are those, too, who suffer from grave emotional and mental
disorders, but many of them do recover if they have the capacity to be
honest." PERIOD in the nutshell..... it is pure laziness and an inability to
get honest and a fear of what one will find when the alcohol is no longer
there to mask who we really are as alcoholics that keeps most from doing the
work that is needed to be done to stay sober.
Quitting drinking is NOT about the alcohol for an alcoholic..... anybody can
quit...but can you stay quit? This is the key. And no my friend this is not
about "willpower". That is the whole point of being an alcoholic, the
willpower is no longer there AT ALL.
The only people who will understand this point are alcoholics. NO man or
woman who does not suffer from this disease can ever understand the true
meaning of being an alcoholic, ever. That is why that us alcoholics must
stick together. I became saddened to read this and wonder how many
alcoholics have died after reading this.
Hello Kristin,
Thanks for the letter.
Well, you certainly are spouting the party line, aren't you?
"From what I have seen...my own personal experience.* THE ONLY
PEOPLE THAT FAIL HERE* in the rooms of AA, are the ones who are incapable of
being honest with THEMSELVES...."
And exactly how did you determine that the drinkers were not being honest with themselves,
and the sober people were? I mean, I might be able to believe that you were able to
tell when people were being dishonest with you, but "being dishonest with themselves"?
How did you get into their heads and listen in?
Did you conduct some kind of formal poll or survey to see how many people
— and which people — were being honest with themselves?
"Alcohol is poison to an alcoholic. This is the most important part of the book......"
Now I agree that alcohol is poisonous. Actually, it is poisonous to everybody, not just alcoholics.
It is great for killing germs, too. Alcoholics are not a separate species of human.
And the Big Book says a whole lot more than that.
"*Rarely* have we seen a person fail who has thoroughly followed
our path. Those who do not recover are people *who cannot or will not
completely* give themselves to this simple program, usually men and women
who are constitutionally incapable of being honest with themselves. There
are such unfortunates. They are not at fault; they seem to have been born
that way. They are naturally incapable of grasping and developing a manner
of living which demands rigorous honesty. Their chances are less than
average. There are those, too, who suffer from grave emotional and mental
disorders, but many of them do recover if they have the capacity to be
honest."
"it is pure laziness and an inability to
get honest and a fear of what one will find when the alcohol is no longer
there to mask who we really are as alcoholics that keeps most from doing the
work that is needed to be done to stay sober."
That is pure cult dogma — just blaming the individual people when A.A.'s "Program"
fails.
So please prove that statement. What study or poll or psychoanalysis found that alcoholics
who don't quit drinking in A.A. are "lazy, dishonest, and afraid"?
I mean really, where is that documented? Where did you get that?
Or are you just regurgitating the standard A.A. slogans and holy scriptures?
"Quitting drinking is NOT about the alcohol for an alcoholic..... anybody can
quit...but can you stay quit? This is the key."
That is more double-talk. If they don't stay quit, then they didn't really quit, did they?
Quitting for a week or a month isn't really quitting.
It's just like quitting smoking. If you only quit for a few weeks or a few months, then
you didn't really quit smoking, did you?
Personally, I have 9 1/2 years of sobriety now — that is, 9 1/2 years
free from any and all alcohol, drugs, or cigarettes. And I did it without
joining a screwy dishonest organization.
"The only people who will understand this point are alcoholics. NO man or
woman who does not suffer from this disease can ever understand the true
meaning of being an alcoholic, ever."
Thank you for that final note. That really puts the frosting on the cake.
That is one of the key characteristics of a cult. It is even listed in the
Cult Test:
And since I am an alcoholic, I guess that means that I do understand, right?
Have a good day.
== Orange
* orange@orange-papers.info *
* AA and Recovery Cult Debunking *
* http://www.Orange-Papers.org/ *
** "It's easy to quit smoking. I've done it hundreds of times."
** == Mark Twain (American Humorist, Writer and Lecturer. 1835—1910)
From: "Kristin McN."
Subject: Re: Your AA bashing.... http://www.orange-papers.info/orange-secrets.html
Date: Fri, June 25, 2010 5:49 pm
Thank you for taking the time to respond. Hope your having a great day. :)
~Kristin
Date: Sun, June 6, 2010 11:57 am (answered 22 June 2010)
From: "John OM."
Subject: What's Not Good About A.A.
I honestly cannot believe you took as much time as it must have taken to
write that ridiculous dribble.
You are obviously a bright individual. Use it for the benefit of those who
need it. Don't waste it.
Hello John,
So alcoholics aren't worth the bother? I shouldn't work so hard to tell the truth to
alcoholics? So who is worth the bother?
Oh well, have a good day anyway.
== Orange
* orange@orange-papers.info *
* AA and Recovery Cult Debunking *
* http://www.Orange-Papers.org/ *
** Where your treasure is
** there will your heart be also
** == Luke, XII, 34
Date: Tue, June 8, 2010 6:30 pm (answered 22 June 2010)
From: "Russell"
Subject: For a change, (I hope) A simple question
Hi Agent Orange.
I've seen a lot of your corespodance with people who want to argue over
facts & figures. This does not interest me after I've heard both sides of an
argument stated.
I'm genuinely much more interested to ask you simply why you have spent such
a huge amount of your time and effort to put this site together? What
motivation is so strong in you to get this painstakingly detalied info
online?
Hello Russell,
My mother told me that "If it's worth doing, it's worth doing right."
Have a good day.
== Orange
* orange@orange-papers.info *
* AA and Recovery Cult Debunking *
* http://www.Orange-Papers.org/ *
** Blessed is he who has found his work;
** let him ask no other blessedness.
** == Carlyle, Past and Present
[The following three letters arrived at the same time, before I answered one,
so it is not a back-and-forth conversation.]
From: "Dale L. D."
Subject:
Date: Tue, June 8, 2010 6:45 pm (answered 22 June 2010)
This must have taken a long time to write.. Wow.
Hello Dale,
Yes, I've been at it for 9 years now.
Date: Tue, June 8, 2010 6:47 pm (answered 22 June 2010)
From: "Dale L. D."
Subject: RE:
Your AA scorecard as to whether it is a cult, that is, must have taken a
long time to write. I wonder how, e.g., Christianity would compare against
your tome/checklist. What a constructive endeavor.
Hello Dale,
Yes, it took a long time, and a lot of work.
There is no one sect called "Christianity" that we can score on that test.
There are huge differences between the Baptists, the Episcopalians, the Catholics,
and the Mormons. And all of the other various sects. We would have to test them
individually.
Here in Portland there is a fundamentalist sect of people who call themselves
"Christians" — "The Church of the Followers of Christ" —
and who do not believe in doctors and medicine. They only believe in prayer.
When a child gets sick, they pray over the child, and if the child dies, he dies.
Every couple of years, they kill another child.
Just recently, the parents of a dead child were tried for
manslaughter, and convicted. The father got two years in prison. The mother got off
with probation so that she could care for the surviving children.
Now I think that particular sect of so-called "Christianity"
will pass the Cult Test easily.
Date: Tue, June 8, 2010 7:27 pm (answered 22 June 2010)
From: "Dale L. D."
Subject: i thought the 12 steps
Were a "suggested" program of recovery. Ironically, I think "suggested"
which according to you as it is in the first 136 pages of the Big Book and
therefore would be Bill Wilson's word has been re-defined (one of your
criticisms of Wilson) in your diatribe to somehow mean "mandatory."
By all means, if you have a way to sobriety that works for you please
follow it, and good luck, if sobriety is what you desire. But your
relentless criticism of a program, whatever the effective rate, whatever the
warts in its original leaders — which turned the organization over to others
well over 50 years ago — that has in fact worked for thousands is
unfortunate. I have read the book Sober for Good, which discusses long term
sobriety and the many different ways folks have arrived there. Sober for
Good makes clear: AA has been proven effective for some, and at its core, at
least according to the book, is one of many ways long-term abstainers have
succeeded.
You think that quack medicine should not be "relentlessly criticized"?
Should we not criticize Scientology for selling quack psychotherapy?
You do know, don't you, that Scientology claims to have a never-fails "cure"
for drug and alcohol problems in NARCONON?
In fact, Scientology will tell you that A.A. does not work; only Scientology works.
So, should we just remain silent while Tom Cruise goes on TV and claims that Scientology
knows more about the human mind than all of the psychiatrists in the world?
And now you are just sinking to claiming that quack medicine really works great.
A.A. has not "been proven effective for some". Having some fool yammer about how
he drank the koolaid and was instantly cured is not "proof" that a medicine
actually works to heal sick people.
Just a few letters back, we were discussing how you do proper clinical tests of
medicines and treatments.
Look here.
I have read the book "Sober For Good", and it is listed in the bibliography,
here.
It is not "proof" of anything. It is merely a collection of anecdotes.
All that the book proves is that some people say that they have not had a drink
in years, and it
did not matter much what organization they were hanging out with when they quit.
The author did not do any tests to determine the actual efficacy of any method
of treating alcohol abuse.
Have a good day.
== Orange
* orange@orange-papers.info *
* AA and Recovery Cult Debunking *
* http://www.Orange-Papers.org/ *
** Ah, what a dusty answer gets the soul
** When hot for certainties in this our life!
** == George Meredith, Modern Love
Date: Wed, June 23, 2010 8:30 pm (Posted 2 July 2010)
From: "Dale L. D."
Subject: RE: i thought the 12 steps
You are possibly one of the most fucked up, hateful assholes I have ever
come across.
I try to avoid hateful. Have fun tying yourself up in knots the rest of
your life.
