|
Date: Sat, August 27, 2011 8:29 pm (answered 31 August 2011)
Date: Mon, August 29, 2011 2:50 pm (answered 31 August 2011) Well, Orange-here is their response. Not sure if they gave a "medical definition" of "disease", but they DID give a "Medical Library" one! Put this on the forum, and let the salvo's respond accordingly! :) John Begin forwarded message:
*Attachments:*
Date: Mon, August 29, 2011 2:56 pm (answered 31 August 2011) I think what BOTH of these "definitions" miss however, is the process of HOW an addictive chemical substance gets into the human body! NO addictive substance causes ANY "brain changes" without being INTRODUCED INTO THE BRAIN by the ingestor. Therefore, an "addict" using any drug would NOT be considered "diseased", but the brain would only BECOME "diseased" after "prolonged use" (which is??). So, given that, would a person who repeatedly ingests an addictive chemical into their bodies (resulting in that addictive chemical getting TO the brain!) be considered "diseased" since the brain is not ingesting the chemical by itself? Thank you for your response to this continuing inquiry, John P. McC., M-RAS, CSC
Hi again, John,
Yes, exactly. Heavy drinkers have numerous diseases, like cirrhosis of the liver,
renal failure, brain damage, Wernicke-Korsakoff Syndrome, and peripheral nerve damage,
but those are all caused by drinking too much alcohol.
What is this "alcoholism" disease that causes people to drink alcohol?
What supposedly makes alcoholics "powerless over alcohol"?
Similarly, what is the "disease" that causes normal people to smoke cigarettes until
they are addicted to nicotine?
And what "disease" causes normal people to shoot heroin until they are
addicted to it?
From: "John McC" I have been "voted OFF the AA cult-board"! LOL!
Hi John,
Congratulations! Remember Aldous Huxley's "Brave New World"?
As the two heroes of the story were being exiled to an island
for being trouble-makers who criticized the system and
revealed too many truths, the Director said,
"Don't take it so hard. Everybody who is anybody gets sent to an island."
Have a good day now.
== Orange
Date: Sun, August 28, 2011 7:55 pm (answered 31 August 2011) As opposed to reading a SHIT TON of crap about A-A? WHAT IS THE ALTERNATIVE? FUCK. JESUS. Jake S.
Hello Jake,
If you actually need "help", or a "support group"
to quit drinking too much alcohol — which most people don't —
there are many available, like SMART and SOS and Lifering and HAMS.
I just reprinted the list of organizations and addresses
here,
so I'll just point you to it.
Remember that 75% or 80% of all alcoholics who successfully quit drinking
actually quit drinking alone, on their own, without any treatment or support group or program.
Look here.
But if you must have some company, that's okay.
Oh, also, please read this for a lot of hints and techniques:
How did you get to where you are?
Good luck, and have a good day now.
== Orange
[ Link here = http://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters259.html#Jake_S2 ]
Date: Wed, August 31, 2011 2:24 pm (answered 2 September 2011) Hi Orange, Sorry for being such an A-Hole. As you can tell I was drunk at the time. I now am of lucid and sober mind and will go about your webpage in a much calmer fashion. Thank you for condensing the links for me, and once again I apologize for assaulting your mailbox like a jerk. Thank you, Jake
Hello Jake,
Thanks, and that's okay. I did a lot of dumb things when I was drunk too.
That's one of the reasons that I finally quit.
Have a good day, and good luck now.
== Orange
Date: Tue, August 30, 2011 8:46 am (answered 31 August 2011) Hello I'm about 1/4 through the Internet article an plan on digesting the entire thing in the next day or two. In the mean time, before I have the time to do the research, what is your main personal motive for the article? "The God concept"? Ive been around AA for 20 yrs and when I first got the program, it was a real miracle in that I'd drunk every day for almost 8 yrs and I was sober for 3 months. That for me is a miracle. I do wonder for all the time and energy spent doing at least a meeting a day and Big Book work, if there is an alternative? I think there are a lot of crazy people in the rms....sort of a dumping grown for mental misfits and I want to move beyond that. But, for me, there is no denying that AA works if you even call it brainwashing. But, I'm new to the program again and giving it a try doing it the AA way for the first time in my life. It's this simple: I have given real belief in God a chance and Ive seen some amazing coincidences this past few weeks and I'm grateful to whatever thing is at work to cause these coincidences in my favor. C
Hello C.,
Thanks for the letter and I wish you luck.
My motive is just to get the truth out there: the truth, the whole truth, and nothing
but the truth. I think that sick people deserve and need to hear the truth.
It's only fair to tell them the truth, and for them to know what really works.
Your decision to return to A.A. after a relapse is the consequence of your first
decision that you didn't mention: You decided to really quit drinking, and to really
give it your whole effort.
You are now willing to change your life and your self.
Dr. Edgar H. Schein called that "unfreezing" the personality.
(Look here.)
Of course you will experience big changes when you decide to make big changes.
Really decide. Not just sort of decide to do something, but really decide.
The process is quite simple: You drink until you are dying, and then you decide
not to die that way, and you are willing to do whatever you have to do to keep from
dying that way. I went through the same process.
The difference with me is simply that I saw that A.A. was a fraud and a cult, and I quit drinking
by using my own intelligence and will power.
I wish you luck. And if you decide that you want to hang out with some less crazy people,
look here for a list of other groups and programs.
And if you want to read how I did it, read this:
How did you get to where you are?
Have a good day now.
== Orange
Date: Tue, August 30, 2011 9:41 pm (answered 1 September 2011) you want to dissect another organization too? here, check this site out, read it and flail away at them too... it's a good read... http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/przion1.htm I am pretty sure you are already a member of this organization anyways... have a nice day...
Hello Andrew,
Thank you for the link. I did not know that there were such rabid true believers
still promoting The Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion
as if it was a valid historical document. And to pass such racist propaganda
off as "Christian Bible" belief is unreal.
First off, no, I am not a member of that organization. In fact, we are philosophical enemies.
I have criticized The Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion before.
Look
here and
here.
The Protocols is a forgery that was created by the Russian Czar's secret police
— specifically, by two hack writers who worked for Ratchkovsky, who was
one of the leaders of the Ochrana, the Russian secret police — to
try to blame the Jews for Russia's troubles that were really caused by the Czar's incompetent
running of the country.
Ratchkovsky gave the forgery to the Czar, and claimed that it proved that the Jews
were the Czar's enemy. At first, the Czar was fooled by the deception, but he later learned the
truth, and ordered that the book be suppressed and not used. The Czar rightly said that
they could not promote spiritual things — Christianity — by such immoral means.
But copies of The Protocols survived, and have been causing troubles ever since.
The author of those web pages used really brain-damaged logic to try to pass The Protocols
off as genuine. I don't have the time to write a whole book about The Protocols,
and don't need to, as others have already done so.
But I do want to comment on three of his statements:
The first two sentences are almost true. Actually, Nilus was the second publisher.
The third sentence of that first quote is questionable — I had never before
heard that the Kerensky regime — the Russian revolutionaries who overthrew the Czar —
destroyed all copies of The Protocols. That may or not be true.
I shall have to check. I know that they didn't get all copies, because Alfred Rosenberg
took one copy from Russia to Germany, where it fell into the hands of the fledgeling Nazi party.
(Look here.)
The "successor" of Kerensky was of course Vladimir Illich Lenin. I also had not heard that
Lenin imposed a death penalty for possession of a copy of the book.
The last sentence of that quote is brain-damaged logic.
Even if Lenin did kill people for having a copy
of the book, that does not prove that the book is genuine. Lenin may well have suppressed
the book because it was created by the hated secret police of the Czar.
This is bullshit logic. "The Jews" have repeatedly answered
the accusations in The Protocols.
Even if they had not, that would not be PROOF that the charges are true.
The last sentence is pure racism and bigotry.
By the way, I'm not Jewish, and I refute and challenge the lies in The Protocols.
It isn't a matter of Jews versus non-Jews.
For some answers about The Protocols, see these books:
This is standard conspiracy-theory fear-mongering. The "invisible boogey-man" will get you.
Be afraid. Be very afraid.
Ironically, just last night I was watching some NOVA programs on Public Television about
the rise of the human race, and how our brains grew larger over the millions of years
and our ability to think complex thoughts increased.
And we gained the ability to speak. (And tell lies.)
It is a tragedy for the most advanced species on the planet to waste so much of its brainpower
on lies.
And about the "Bible belief" of that web site: Jesus taught us to love our neighbors, not
to hate the Jews and Gays and Blacks, and ... whomever.
Oh well, have a good day now.
== Orange
[The next letter from Andrew_F is here.]
Date: Wed, August 31, 2011 12:37 am (answered 1 September 2011) Read through all your stuff as I had heard SOME of the controversy around AA as I had been in and out of "the program" for a while. Got sober again but decided after a week of meetings and seeing the same old BS that I'd at least bring up the 5% success rate, Bill W's womanizing and appropriation of AA funds, LSD use, etc... Oh boy. Never have I been interrupted in a meeting by MULTIPLE people all at once. It was as though the entire group was trying to shut me up as fast as they could. Not planning on going back unless it's to help others see there are other ways. Passing along this link. Might copy a few of the experiences so people can understand better what you're talking about when you're talking about Bill W's Bella Donna experience in the hospital. I don't think people, myself included, understand exactly how incredibly hallucinatory Bella Donna is. Reading through these experiences informed me about exactly how spun out Bill W must have been in that hospital bed... http://www.erowid.org/plants/belladonna/belladonna.shtml Thanks for the site. One of the few honest voices of dissent against a institution that has been accepted completely by our culture despite it's lack of success, sexual scandal, authority power-tripping, and all other sorts of messed up stuff that goes on in the halls. Interesting that the people most interested in shutting me up were the "wise old-timers" who happened to have a few sponsees around them. Wouldn't want the fresh sheep to learn about the wolves, no? ;) Keep up the good work.
Sincerely,
Hello David,
Thanks for the letter and the compliments.
Your experiences at the A.A. meeting are so revealing, aren't they?
If it's such a spiritual organization, why are they so opposed to
hearing true facts about Alcoholics Anonymous?
And how is it that they have rule against "cross-talk",
except if you say something about A.A. that the old-timers don't like,
in which case interrupting the speaker is quite okay?
The link to Erowid is interesting. Doesn't that extremely poisonous weed sound just like what
you want to take to see God?
There is more on belladonna here.
Have a good day now.
== Orange
Date: Wed, August 31, 2011 7:42 am (answered 1 September 2011) Hi Orange, First of all, I just love you and everything you say about AA. It didn't work for me. I hated the 12 step zombies and their narrow-minded religious cult. Anyway, I'll make this short and sweet. I've remained sober on my own since 2009. I started reading books by Dr. Stanton Peele, then others about non-12 step programs. I attended Woman For Sobriety for about a year and really liked their open discussion format. Recently, I got curious about Passages of Malibu and requested their book. Of course, I cannot afford their rehab, but I truly believe in the philosophy that you need to find the underlying cause of addiction and until you find that out, no 12-step program is going to help. I was forced to attend a 12-step rehab program and recently read their web site and testimonials page. One person praised the program and said they were having "meeting withdrawals" after not going for a few days. Well, that says it all, doesn't? AA/NA wants you to become brainwashed into their way of thinking, which is so antiquated. I don't want to replace one addiction for another, and that's what AA is. They preach the only way to stay sober is with them, and it isn't. Anyway, if you haven't read or heard of Passages of Malibu, check it out. A completely holistic approach to sobriety, which is for me.
Thanks, Vickie M.
Hello Vicki,
Thank you for the letter, and congratulations on your sobriety.
Yes, I know about Passages of Malibu. It is famous for being the spin-dry facility that
all of the movie stars go to. Very high-class, very luxurious, and very expensive.
I was reading their web site years ago and got a laugh out of the advertising that
told starlettes that they would not have to clean toilets as part of their recovery.
We have talked about Passages before. Look here:
Have a good day now.
== Orange
Date: Tue, September 6, 2011 6:56 am
Orange,
Hi Vicki,
Date: Wed, August 31, 2011 11:10 am (answered 1 September 2011) I follow the 12 step path. I have a genuine appreciation for your — how should I put it — views on AA. Don't get me wrong, I find much of oranges information about AA taken out of context (which I am sure you guys are smart enough to know) to support its own agenda. But you are of real service to AA members — (real AA members — bet you don't know what I mean by that — we are secretive after all:) as you give us a view of the things we do badly and it enables us turn a critical eye on ourselves — where without you we (AA) would not. After all it's not really just AAWS is it? I mean when you consider the whole spectrum of AA impact on the world right? There are over 50 well organized national 12 programs and AA itself is in over 150 countries (and growing — 12 steps it seems aren't going the way of the Washingtonians). So groups like yours are important to AA — weather anyone in AA admits it to you or are not! You keep us faithful to the path (thought you would appreciate me using religious undertone)? God bless (or High power be with you, or may the sun light of the spirit keep you) ok — just a little fun?. Carlston
Hello Carlston,
Thank you for the letter and the compliments.
I think your core point is:
"I mean when you consider the whole spectrum of AA impact on the world right?"
Considering what A.A. really does is the whole point of my web site.
And what A.A. does is not good. A.A. kills more people than it saves.
A.A. tells people that they are powerless over alcohol, which becomes a self-fulfilling
prediction, and causes people to relapse worse, and even die.
A.A. tells people not to take their doctor-prescribed medications, which causes more
deaths.
Then A.A. spreads completely untrue ideas about alcoholics and alcohol addiction,
which causes more problems.
I just covered this subject again recently, so I'll point you to the rest of the list
of evidence of A.A. failure
here.
Your final argument was totally false:
"There are over 50 well organized national 12 programs and AA itself is in over 150
countries (and growing — 12 steps it seems aren't going the way of the
Washingtonians)."
That propaganda trick is called
Appeal to Numbers (Argumentum ad Numerum),
and it's bad logic. Having lots of groups and visitors doesn't mean that they are sober,
or that the 12-Step routine actually works to cure anything.
Scientology has lot of groups and offices in cities around the world too, and Scientology
is nothing but a fraud.
Scientology has lots of front groups and auxiliary organizations too.
Scientology even has a "never-fails" cure for alcoholism and drug addiction called Narconon.
Look here.
Do those front groups prove that Tom Cruise is right when he jumps up and down
on the couch and declares that Scientology knows more about the human mind
than all of the psychiatrists in the world?
And the truth is, A.A. is shrinking.
So yes, A.A. is actually going the way of the Washingtonians.
Alcoholics Anonymous is a dying dinosaur.
We just discussed the A.A. membership numbers a little while ago, too,
here.
Have a good day now.
== Orange
[The next letter from Carlston_F is here.]
[ Link here = http://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters259.html#Jake_S2 ]
Date: Wed, August 31, 2011 3:06 pm (answered 2 September 2011) If you are interested in speaking with or communicating with two historians regarding WWII and Hitler you can contact the following two women. I suspect you may have heard of them but if not please check them out. The correct translated version of Mein Kampf was done by James Murphy. The problem with ones (mostly Zionist Jews) that make Hitler to be the creator of the Big Lie and everything he allegedly did is they were done to demonize Hitler. America needs an enemy for Americans to hate, for those in power to wage war. The same goes for the western world.
Hello Jake,
The main thrust of my web site is about alcoholism and addiction and recovery and
Alcoholics Anonymous and other cults, especially recovery cults.
Getting into translations of Mein Kampf is getting a little far afield.
Again, so much of translation is like writing poetry. There may be several
different ways to say something, and all can be correct, and it's just a matter of
style and taste which way to write a translation.
It isn't a matter of incorrect translations.
And again, "the Zionist Jews" do not need to demonize Adolf Hitler. Adolf Hitler did that
himself. He and Joseph Stalin were the two biggest mass murderers in the history of the world.
My view has changed on most, maybe all of our history, because of men and women who have and continue to write the unpopular. 911 and the demonization (to the point where he was hated) of Saddam Hussein beginning with the horrific hearing Congressman Tom Lantos held. The testimony of that young woman who claimed Saddam was taking babies out of incubators turned out to be false; she was the daughter of Kuwait's Ambassador. I agree that Saddam Hussein was demonized before the invasion of Iraq. And the story of throwing Kuwaiti babies out of incubators was a fabricated lie, and it indeed was told by the daughter of the Kuwaiti Ambassador. Other events such as the USS Liberty, the Gulf of Tonkin incident, and the disputed did FDR or did FDR not know about the broken Japanese code in regards to the attack on Pearl Harbor
Again, mostly true. Maybe all true. The Gulf of Tonkin incident that was used to
justify the escalation of the War in Vietnam was really one U.S. Navy ship stupidly firing on another.
I have my doubts about the story of FDR and the Japanese
code. The way I read history, the U.S. military did not break the Japanese code until
just before the battle of Midway Island.
(Which was why the U.S. won that battle.)
Deanna Spingola has a show, Spingola Speaks, on Republic Broadcasting Network — Monday — Friday 12:00 NOON — 2:00 PM CST — http://republicbroadcasting.org/deanna@spingola.com Carolyn Yeager — has a show, Heretics Hour, on Voice of Reason Radio — Mondays 9pm EST — http://reasonradionetwork.com/programs/the-heretics%E2%80%99-hour
Okay, I'll check them out when I can.
Have a good day now.
== Orange
[ Link here = http://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters259.html#SJL2 ]
From: "SJ L." This website http://truthandliberty.com/Quotes_on_Controlling.html gives quotes, which need to be researched, and one by Hitler has no source and no year; "The bigger the lie, the more inclined people will be to believe it" — Adolf Hitler
That actually sounds like an alternate translation, or paraphrasing, of
Again, I need the full German text of Mein Kampf.
Does somebody have an underground copy?
When I inserted the google search of the first part of the quote I questioned, it was to show you that it did not produce any results from Hitler.org, which uses the Murphy translation. In 1942 they stopped printing Murphy's english version of Mein Kampf. Yes, finding things with literal searches can be a real pain when there are several different translations of the same book. Not even Google is good at finding alternate wording with the same meaning. Sometimes they do it, but not consistently well. Another quote when searched all the websites cite the same site as the soure. When you look at this website http://quotes.liberty-tree.ca/quote_blog/Adolf.Hitler.Quote.EE50 they claim the quote was from Mein Kampf 14th edition in 1935. I searched for that and all I could find were mentions of this edition and amazingly many sites list the website above Hitler wrote two volumes, one in 1925 and the second volume in 1926. "Through clever and constant application of propaganda, people can be made to see paradise as hell, and also the other way around, to consider the most wretched sort of life as paradise." — Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf Another quote (some say terror instead of terrorism) produced no sources and no year it was made, which should make that quote suspect. All I am saying is we have been lied to time and time again and these lies have dire consequences; War! Ummm, listing quotes without years or sources is not lying. I have many books of quotes that I use for the signatures at the ends of letters, and almost none of them give sources or years. "Terrorism is the best political weapon for nothing drives people harder than a fear of sudden death. Now, they don't even try to hide their lies. Obama made so many egregious promises/lies about ending the war, transparent government, closing Guantanamo, on and on and on, but he never intended on following through. SJ L.
I am also disappointed in President Obama's failure to deliver on his campaign promises.
Considering the fact that the Republicans are blocking everything he is trying to do,
and won't allow anything through the House of Representatives, and filibuster in the Senate,
I don't think there is much grounds for the accusation that he "never intended" to
follow through. More like that he just isn't a good fighter.
And he has too many advisors who are too close to Wall Street.
Have a good day now.
== Orange
Date: Wed, August 31, 2011 3:27 pm (answered 2 September 2011) Either you're a drunk or a therapist, or maybe a drunken therapist but you are definitely full of shit.
Hello Bob,
Thank you for a good demonstration of the standard cult characteristic
"Personal attacks on critics".
You have not provided any facts, just attacks.
I find it interesting that you attack therapists. That is odd, considering how many
so-called "therapists" and "counselors" send patients to Alcoholics Anonymous.
What do you have against therapists?
Now do you have any facts? Would you care to tell us
what the real A.A. cure rate is?
How about
the A.A. drop-out rate?
Or
the A.A. divorce rate,
or
the A.A. suicide rate?
How about
the A.A. 13th-Stepping rate?
Oh well, have a good day anyway.
== Orange
Date: Wed, August 31, 2011 3:42 pm (answered 2 September 2011) A few years ago the Picower Institute for Learning and Memory at MIT presented a symposium, "On Addiction," in its Open Mind Series. FYI here's the video. http://web.mit.edu/picower/events/openmindseries.html Some of it is heavy going — we're in a classroom, after all, and there are some heavy-hitting pros doing the talking — but I can assure you it's worth sticking with. I learned an awful lot about the brain. Observe that nobody's wasting any time wrangling over the word disease, whether inside or outside quotation marks, or capitalized or not capitalized, or whatever. They had better things to do. Here's the gist of it, extracted from the notes I took.
For me, anyway, this helps explain why — as the folk wisdom of recovery puts it — you can't turn a pickle back into a cucumber. Our brains have been hijacked. And the road maps have been falsified. Go on, supply your own metaphors. Pro forma, I suppose, there had to be one token enlightened layperson on board, and who should this be but ... William C. Moyers, Vice President, External Affairs, Hazelden. What a putz! You can sense the people around him squirming in embarrassment.
Best
Hi again, Richard,
Thanks for the tip. I'll have to go check that out.
I really feel sorry for Bill Moyers (the elder). He has spent his life trying to
get the truth to the American people, and
his son turned into a professional liar
for a bunch of cult-religion quacks. It just ain't fair.
Oh well, have a good day.
== Orange
Date: Wed, August 31, 2011 6:14 pm (answered 2 September 2011) Read some of your stuff online. Interesting. I imagine that if Christianity had started during a time when there were avenues of communication such as the internet there would have been more people critical of it. I agree with you that AA is a religion, but I think the 12 steps are actually effective at bringing people to an awakening, or experience, of the power within themselves that allows them avoid addictive substances and processes and to have meaningful lives. I have been given the gift of sobriety for over 23 years now, and I am a PhD candidate doing research on the twelve steps as an ethic of liberation. Hope you are well. Patrick
Hi Patrick,
Thanks for the letter. And congratulations on your sobriety.
Yes, Christianity probably might have a harder time getting started today.
Then again, considering the immense numbers of true believers around here,
who have no interest in facts or true information,
primitive Christianity might have done just fine.
Saul of Tarsus became the leader of the early Christian church by having an
epileptic fit and falling off of his horse and hitting his head and seeing God.
And 2000 years later, Bill Wilson became the leader of a world-wide religion by
getting dosed with belladonna and seeing God.
Not much has changed.
But that is really irrelevant, you know. The core point is that A.A and its 12 Steps
are not effective cures for anything.
And they are not empowering, just the opposite.
In properly-controlled medical tests, A.A. has been proven to be very harmful — worse than no treatment or help.
But 5% per year is the normal rate of spontaneous remission in alcoholics —
what Dr. Vaillant called "the natural history of alcoholism".
That's how many alcoholics recover on their own, without any "treatment"
or "support group". A.A. cannot claim the credit for those
recoveries, no matter whether they attend some A.A. meetings or not,
and Dr. Vaillant clearly said that. So 5 minus 5 equals zero, the real A.A. recovery rate.
The 12 Steps are simply not a cure. The 12 Steps are Dr. Frank Buchman's cult religion
practices for converting and indoctrinating new recruits. They are brainwashing techniques.
While you are studying and collecting information for your Ph.D., please read this short web page:
Cult Info.
Also read
the Cult Test, which is much longer.
Have a good day now.
== Orange
Last updated 20 January 2012. |
