Date: Mon, October 18, 2010 6:13 am     (answered 27 October 2010)
From: "Captain Britain"
Subject: hi

Hi again terrence

ive written to you a couple of times before and have very much appreciated your replies. I went over the wire just over a year ago and am still doing well and staying sober. i love reading your site including the letters. they are a serene bunch those 12 steppers aint they? LOL.

i'm in the process of getting a smart meeting going in my town, so things are looking good here. i'm having a big book burning this weekend when i go hiking, so at least the book will at last serve a purpose — it makes good kindling. lol.

keep up the stalwart you are a hero to many and a voice of reason to me. thankyou from my heart. i'm starting a campaign called NO 212 to combat quack medicine.

peace bro
Captain britain.

Its often said by free thinkers that the best way to see faith is to shut the eye of reason
love the site orange i,m an atheist anarchist lol many thanks

Hello Captain,

Thanks for the letter and all of the compliments. I'm glad to hear that you are doing well. And starting a SMART meeting sounds like a good thing to do. And so is campaigning against officially-condoned quack medicine. I need to do more of that over here, too.

So have a good life now.

== Orange

*             orange@orange-papers.info        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     "When you come to a fork in the road, take it."
**        == Yogi Berra

Date: Mon, October 18, 2010 7:44 pm     (answered 27 October 2010)
From: "Barry Y."
Subject: yes, it's a paradox

bill's sex/love addiction made him so depressed. he was flawed, imperfect, obsessive, human.

i forget who said 'a man's intelligence is measured by how many contradictions he can withstand'

point being, the message, or 'ideal', can be carried by sinners as well as saints.

but why do remain anonymous after so much intense analysis on bill w? everybody knows about it now.

methinks thou doth protest too much.

barry y., member of a.a.

*Attachments:*
ALANO_SMALL_FOR_MAILING.jpeg
Size: 358 k
Type: image/jpg

(click on image for larger version)

Hello Barry,

Thanks for the letter. Alas, you sure are doing a lot of the Minimization and Denial tap dance. Rationalization, too.

Bill Wilson's "program for sobriety" is not "a paradox". It is a hoax and a fraud. A.A. does not work at all. The claim that "it's a paradox" is just another point where A.A. proves itself to be a cult. Claiming that the group has Magical, Mystical, Unexplainable Workings that defy logical explanation is a standard cult characteristic. See the description of A.A.'s "magical, paradoxical" illogical answer here.

It is simple and obvious: I don't want to get my religious or spiritual instruction from a man who was a compulsive liar, a thief, a con artist, a necromancer, a philanderer, and a sexual predator, on top of being a mentally-ill narcissist. To claim that you can "paradoxically" get holy teachings from such a man is delusional.

Your line about "a man's intelligence is measured by how many contradictions he can withstand" is a good example of a cult slogan that is designed to stop rational thought. Stop thinking: don't notice the obvious contradictions in the cult's teachings, and don't notice the obvious credibility gap between what the cult leader says, and what he does. Like proclaiming a life of spirituality, and demanding that other people stop being "selfish" and "egotistical", while stealing all of the money, women, and fame for himself, and lying about it. It is not "intelligent" to overlook such contradictions — it is stupid. Literally stupid. The word "stupid" means that someone is walking around in a stupor, not noticing what is happening. Deliberately refusing to see that the contradictions are important signs is stupid.

And once again, we have another Stepper complaining about me following the Eleventh Tradition of Alcoholics Anonymous, and practicing anonymity. Funny how anonymity is supposedly a holy virtue when A.A. members do it, but there is something wrong with anybody else doing it.

Actually, I broke my anonymity years ago, in response to the complaints of Steppers like you who accused me of "hiding behind anonymity". For the dozenth time, my birth name is Terrance Hodgins, and I live in Forest Grove, Oregon.

Oh, and I must thank you for that picture. It is highly revealing. I can't count how many times I've had Steppers tell me that Bill Wilson and Dr. Bob are irrelevant, and nobody follows them. When I criticize the crazy things that Bill Wilson wrote in the Big Book, and the unspiritual life that he led, some Stepper tells me that his group doesn't pay any attention to Bill Wilson, it doesn't matter, and they don't even read The Big Book. But here, we have the pictures of Bill Wilson and Dr. Bob painted on the side of the Alano clubhouse. Yes, Scientology is the cult of Lafayette Ronald Hubbard, the People's Temple is the cult of Rev. Jim Jones, the Hari Krishnas are the cult of A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada, the Unification Church is the cult of Rev. Sun Myung Moon, and Alcoholics Anonymous is the cult of William Griffith Wilson and Dr. Robert Holbrook Smith.

And isn't it cute how the cross and steeple are just above the A.A. clubhouse? They could almost be a part of the A.A. clubhouse, or they could be part of an unseen church behind the clubhouse. Either way, it visually establishes an association between A.A. and the cross. The artist was clever to do that. That ranks right up there with good Nazi and Communist propaganda art.

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             orange@orange-papers.info        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**  It is better to be alone than in bad company.

[The next letter from Barry Y. is here.]

Date: Mon, November 1, 2010 7:54 am     (answered 3 November 2010)
From: Long Island Bob O.
Subject: Alano Clubhouse

Mister T,

Thank you for all you do. The Alano Clubhouse drips with religion. The church steeple on the right, the angel on top of the building and the telephone pole on the left of the building make a trinity. Can that be a coincidence? What I like most is the telephone pole with two crossbars. I see that as a double cross which I find appropriate.

Thank you again,
Long Island Bob O.

Hi again, Bob,

Thanks for the thanks.

Yes, the more I look at that picture, the more I see that. I also notice that the statue on top of the Alano building is an angel, and the stairs into the Alano clubhouse are a path up into the light.

Yes, that is a carefully composed picture, just loaded with religious symbolism. But of course A.A. still isn't a religion, they say.

Have a good day.

== Orange

*             orange@orange-papers.info        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     "A tyrant must put on the appearance of uncommon
**     devotion to religion. Subjects are less apprehensive
**     of illegal treatment from a ruler whom they consider
**     god-fearing and pious. On the other hand, they do
**     less easily move against him, believing that he has
**     the gods on his side."
**        — Aristotle

Date: Tue, October 19, 2010 8:32 am     (answered 28 October 2010)
From: "Bobbi H."
Subject: Awakening

Thanks for your efforts to reveal truth. I have always wondered why I felt such a heavy pull to get away from AA. After 10 years of meetings and trying to stay sober ( I only have 6 mths ), I have finally found someone who thinks AA is not all its cracked up to be. I am catching a lot of negative feedback from my AA friends that I am not going to regular meetings anymore. It makes me sad they they are still asleep and don't relate to me. Oh well, wont be the first time Ive been the outsider!

Thank you,

Bobbi H
Valdosta, Georgia

Hi Bobby,

Thank you for the letter. I hope you are feeling better now.

Congratulations on your 6 months of sobriety. What is most important is that you have not given up, and are still fighting the good fight. That counts for a lot.

So may I point you to some of my raps about what has helped me, and other people, here?

Have a good day.

== Orange

*             orange@orange-papers.info        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     As I see it, every day you do one of two things:
**     build health or produce disease in yourself.
**          ==   Adelle Davis

Date: Tue, October 19, 2010 2:29 pm     (answered 29 October 2010)
From: "Gary J."
Subject: A Video

Willful ignorance is exactly what AA is all about:

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2010/10/19/platform-of-willful-ignorance/

Hi Gary,

Thanks for the link. That is good, really good, and funny as can be.

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             orange@orange-papers.info        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     "We, the people of the United States, despite our status
**     as one of the most technologically advanced nations on the
**     face of the earth, remain among the most ignorant about the
**     world we live in.  And yet we continue to hold forth that we
**     have some sort of divine right of intervention, where a nation
**     of some 300 million is self-empowered to dictate to billions
**     of others the terms in which we all coexist on the planet."
**       ==  Scott Ritter (the weapons inspector)

Date: Fri, October 1, 2010 11:13 pm     (answered 29 October 2010)
From: "iamnotastatistic"
Subject: AA and the Drivers License Reinstatement

Hi Orange — you said you liked these so here's one more..

The attached file came from the Metro Detroit area of Michigan. It is an example of what the State requires its citizens to provide in order to even get a hearing to get a driving license reinstated following a DUI, etc. Note: The Michigan Secretary of State (S.O.S) is equivalent to other states Dept. of Motor Vehicles or Driver Licensing Authority.

— Interesting that one must attend some form of *"treatment"* 2-3 times per week!

Has the State proved that attending *"treatment"* 2-3 times per week for a period to be effective in preventing further DUIs? If so, please provide the data.

A brief survey of the district courts in Metro Detroit shows only one court which offers an alternative to AA. Therefore, the reality of driving license reinstatement for most of those people involves compulsory AA attendance.

— Appalling to note that it also requires the applicant to name specific people from their treatment group: indicating that somebody, willingly or unwillingly, must give up their anonymity in order for someone else to get their license back.

— Why must the State have notarized evidence from a fellow *"treatment"*receiver regarding their opinion of the evidence of the applicant's usage/non usage of alcohol? Surely if the other guy is also receiving *"treatment"* he may not have the most reliable observations. I would have thought that an M.D.s or psychiatrists opinion would be more accurate and reliable. People who are in AA will generally have no medical or scientific training or education — why is their lowly opinion valued so much by the courts?

— Why must a citizen prove to the state that he/she *"stays away from"*or *"doesn't really mix with"* drinkers. I'm pretty sure that there's something about freedom of assembly/association in the First Amendment of the U.S. Constitution.

— Why does a citizen have to take on an *"alcohol free way of living"*? I would have thought that all they had to do was guarantee that they wouldn't drive drunk again but apparently they have to change their whole way of life.

On the second page of the attached file there's a list of signs of alcohol usage and of life improvements. Also, it seems that it is encouraged to be a *"stronger performer at AA meetings"*!

Now my question again is: How is an alcoholic, who is also in treatment, and who probably has no medical or scientific training or education, supposed to interpret these signs accurately as signs of either *"alcohol usage"* or *"improvements"* versus depression, fatigue, bi-polar disorder, allergies, sinuses, bullying, lack of sleep, exercise, better nutrition, or any one of another million reasons?

Again, the State should probably leave the medical observations and diagnoses to the professionals rather than to AA members.

** Also, why does a Michigander need to be/have *"more humble / less ego"* to get back their driving license?

Finally, I think a good way to see off some of those unmannerly people from AA that write you so often would be: *"We avoid retaliation or argument." Big Book, 4th Ed., pg. 66.*,

iamnotastatistic

*Attachments:*
Michigan_SOS-DMV_License_Reinstatement_2009.pdf
Size: 213 k
Type: application/pdf

Hello again, iamnotastatistic,

Thanks for the document. That is very interesting. Quackery and incompetence everywhere.

Yes, it is outrageous to have another sick alcoholic passing judgement on a newcomer alcoholic, and submitting evidence to the court. And this uneducated, possibly insane, opinion gets "NOTARY CERTIFICATION"?

I also noticed that when you read the list of "signs of an alcoholic or drug addict" at the bottom of the page, that someone with chronic depression or bipolar disorder will get judged to be an alcoholic. The paper says "Select 3 to 4", and such sick and depressed people will easily exhibit 3 or 4:

1. Isolating from friends or family
2. Depression or mood swings
3. School changes, grades down...
4. Physical symptoms, unkempt appearance, looks less healthy
5. Don't care attitude
6. Money problems (too depressed to keep a job)

== Orange

*             orange@orange-papers.info        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     If alcoholism is really a disease, then A.A. sponsors are
**     guilty of practicing medicine without a license. They are
**     also guilty of treating a life-threatening illness without
**     having any medical education or training.  They have never
**     gone to medical school, and never done an internship or
**     residency, and yet they presume to be qualified to make
**     life-or-death decisions in the patients' treatment. That
**     is what you call quackery.

Date: Fri, October 1, 2010 1:46 am     (answred 29 October 2010)
From: "Katie M."
Subject: Fw: Please forward on

You are going to LOVE this! Consider it an early Christmas present and enjoy!!

~ Katie

PS — I am doing MUCH, MUCH better than my first email. I have happily left AA along with all of their fear and I am quite happily living a full and happy life. Oh and I am still sober. Imagine that! Turns out sobriety really is as simple as not getting drunk. All this time I thought it required a sponsor telling me what to think, endless meetings and surrounding myself with people who called themselves sick. What a relief to find out that wasn't true. I owe you a huge thank-you.

Hello Katie,

I'm glad to hear that you are doing well. Congratulations.

Thank you for the documents. Now those are informative.

The first document, the letter from Nebraska, is funny:
"We don't need another pamphlet about atheists or agnostics."
"The proposed pamphlet or questionnaire is not conducive to unity."
"We never apologize for God."
But atheists and agnostics are still welcome, of course, even if they don't believe what the majority believes (just as long as they don't mess with "A.A. unity").

And "I simply had to believe in a Spirit of the Universe, who knew neither time nor limitation." — Except that the Spirit was apparently incapable of caring about alcoholics before 1935.

(I mean, why didn't God have Jesus establish A.A. back in the Biblical days, and save people from 2000 years of alcoholism?)

The second document, the Minority Report, is very revealing: 'We have gone from "Rarely have we seen a person fail" to "Seldom do we see a person recover."'
But of course there was never really a day when A.A. worked great, and most members recovered. That was just Bill Wilson's grandiose bragging in the Big Book. No truth to it.

So many of the A.A. dissidents are arguing from a position of claiming that A.A. has gone downhill from the "good old days", and things will be great if we go back to how they did it in the past. Some even want a return to the Oxford Group. (As if saluting Adolf Hitler was so spiritual.)

Thanks again for the documents, and have a good day.

== Orange

*             orange@orange-papers.info        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**  "You have no conception these days of how much failure we had.
**  You had to cull over hundreds of these drunks to get a handful
**  to take the bait."
**  Bill Wilson describing early recruiting efforts for Alcoholics Anonymous,
**  at the memorial service for Dr. Bob, Nov. 15, 1952; file available here.

May 20, 2009, Wednesday: Day 20, continued: Goslings at the waterline, poking around for something to munch

[More gosling photos below, here.]

NEWS FLASH: 1 November 2010:

The Washington Post is carrying an AP news story that comes from London: Alcohol is the most dangerous drug.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/10/31/AR2010103103887.html

Study: Alcohol more lethal than heroin, cocaine

By MARIA CHENG

The Associated Press
Sunday, October 31, 2010; 8:08 PM

LONDON — Alcohol is more dangerous than illegal drugs like heroin and crack cocaine, according to a new study.

British experts evaluated substances including alcohol, cocaine, heroin, ecstasy and marijuana, ranking them based on how destructive they are to the individual who takes them and to society as a whole.

Researchers analyzed how addictive a drug is and how it harms the human body, in addition to other criteria like environmental damage caused by the drug, its role in breaking up families and its economic costs, such as health care, social services, and prison.

Heroin, crack cocaine and methamphetamine, or crystal meth, were the most lethal to individuals. When considering their wider social effects, alcohol, heroin and crack cocaine were the deadliest. But overall, alcohol outranked all other substances, followed by heroin and crack cocaine. Marijuana, ecstasy and LSD scored far lower.

The study was paid for by Britain's Centre for Crime and Justice Studies and was published online Monday in the medical journal, Lancet.

Date: Wed, September 29, 2010 8:12 pm     (answered 3 November 2010)
From: "michael h."
Subject: hello

i had a few questions , ive studied a lot on this subject, i and a recovering addict, in na, my father was 43 yeas sober. and i never had any good feeling for aa

i call addiction a disease for lack of a better term, i do not beleive in cocanism, or herionism, or speedism or alcohoalism i think the whole dna thing regarding alcoholism is a joke

i am of the school of — its not the dugs that make us addicts but rather why we used them

i beleive all the things we ever needed to recover from substance abuse , we learned in kindergarden

and that is spiritual principles, or invisiable principles, which are like uncountable nouns

acceptance, kindness , humility, honesty, openmindedness , compassion willinness, are all spiritual principles that mature people live and practice, they are all truth, or love, that is why they complament each other and are never in conflict, they are all decisions , they are all slices from the same cake

if you practice one spiritua; principle you practice them all,

im not religious, i beleive and anonymous diety for lack of a better term
honesty is the antidote to our self scentered thinking

i beleive sanity in the steps is maturity,
i beleive the power of example is how we got here along with imaturity

the imature are powerles over our example.
the message is grow up or die and we carry it by example

and imaturity is insanity

i have sleep now
hope to talk later

michael j h. 3rd 25 years clean

Hello Michael,

Thanks for the letter, and congratulations on your 25 years clean. I quite agree that recovery is helped by things like "acceptance, kindness, humility, honesty, openmindedness, compassion and willingness". It also helps if people are realistic about the damage that drugs and alcohol causes, and the immense cost in the lives of addicts.

Of course, just telling people to grow up and become spiritual doesn't seem to do them much good, so I'm always looking for something more.

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             orange@orange-papers.info        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     "The thing that is really hard,
**     and really amazing,
**     is giving up on being perfect
**     and beginning the work of becoming yourself."
**        —  Anna Quindlen, novelist

Date: Tue, September 28, 2010 10:22 pm     (answered 3 November 2010)
From: "John McC."
Subject: Yahoo! News Story — 12-step manuscript rare glimpse into early AA — Yahoo! News

Add this to your site (with appropriate analysis! ;)

12-step manuscript rare glimpse into early AA — Yahoo! News

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_fea_lifestyles_aa_s_big_book

Hi John,

Thanks for the link. Yes, that is an interesting article, isn't it? Nothing like tailoring your propaganda to the tastes of your victims.

Well, to pick out some highlights:

12-step manuscript rare glimpse into early AA

AP
By LEANNE ITALIE, Associated Press Writer — Tue Sep 28, 4:21 pm ET

== Orange

*             orange@orange-papers.info        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**  Perhaps we are right to think that the dead are gone forever,
**  locked away somewhere that makes communication with us impossible.
**  Or perhaps that isn't what has happened.
**  My Name Is Bill: Bill Wilson — His Life And The Creation Of Alcoholics Anonymous, Susan Cheever, page 204.

Date: Mon, September 27, 2010 7:01 am     (answered 28 September 2010)
From: "Facebook"
Subject: Christopher M. shared a link on your Wall...

Thought you might like this

http://www.facebook.com/l/79d53;www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/09/23/aa-cofounder-scaled-back-_n_737157.html

AA Co-Founder Scaled Back References To God In Training Manual

By Whitney JonesReligion News Service (RNS)

The basic text used for Alcoholics Anonymous programs, known as "The Big Book," initially used stronger religious language but was reduced to appeal to a wider audience, The Washington Post is reporting.

What it tells me is that they have been hiding the truth about A.A. from the very beginning.
Have a good day.
== Orange

Date: Wed, September 29, 2010 1:32 pm
From: "Facebook"
Subject: Christopher M. commented on his link.

Christopher wrote:
"Exactly my thoughts! You too!"

[Previous letter from Researcher1839 is here.]

Date: Tue, October 19, 2010 7:23 pm     (answered 5 November 2010)
From: "Researcher1839"
Subject: Re: Stepper Way of Life

Hi. Thanks for the heads up. I went into the letters section and read your comments.

During the summer I visited Emerald Lake (which is a State Park in Vermont) to go canoeing. I had often seen it from the road (7A) but hadn't had the time to visit.

Then at your site, The Orange Papers, I found out that William Griffith Wilson had lived at nearby East Dorset, and had proposed to Lois at Emerald lake (!, who'd o thunk?). It looks like the local library is fitted out as a shrine to Stepism, and Wilson's granddad's house is now a combo B&B and "retreat" center (probably for 4th and 5th Step work LOL). When I get the chance I'm going to go up and see the library.

You're so right. Everything this man ever touched has become cultic, hagiographical, and ritualistic — as if he had a direct line and now through "apostolic succession" the current bigwigs of Stepism have the direct line. Perhaps East Dorset will become a place of pilgrimage or a shrine of miracles.

Thank you and keep up the good work
Researcher1839

Hi again, Researcher,

You are probably right — they will make that place into a shrine. Already, Dr. Bob's house in Akron is a shrine, and Bill Wilson's house "Stepping Stones" is a shrine. And every year, on "Founders' Day", the faithful make the pilgrimage to Akron, and worship Dr. Bob's coffee pot.

And you are right about the "Apostolic Succession" too. I am reminded of the Penn & Teller show about A.A., where the actor Gary Bussy declared, "The 12-Step Program was handed down from God to Bill Wilson, and from Bill Wilson to the rest of us." They really do believe that Bill Wilson had a direct hot-line to God, starting with Bill Wilson's belladonna hallucination in Charlie Towns' Hospital in December of 1934.

I wonder how many other religions and shrines got started the same way. The Sufis say, "A lot of them."

== Orange

*             orange@orange-papers.info        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     A donkey with a load of holy books is still a donkey.
**       ==  Traditional Sufi Saying

Date: Tue, October 19, 2010 7:55 pm     (answered 5 November 2010)
From: Rusty U.
Subject: Re: MIKE P of LAS VEGAS

THANKS TERRY, AND THANKS FOR YOUR WORK, THOSE GUYS WERE EVERYTHING YOU WRITE ABOUT AND MY HOME GROUP IN PALM DESERT PLAYS HOST TO A COUPLE OF VANS FROM BETTY FORD CENTER. THEY DONT LIKE ME TELLING THEM THAT THEY DO NOT HAVE A DISEASE. RELAPSE IS NOT PART OF RECOVERY AND YOUR GENE POOL DOES NOT PLAY A PART. GENES MAKE PROTEINS NOT BEHAVIORS. I CANT BELIEVE THAT PEOPLE GET SUCKED INTO THE REHAB MACHINE.

WE MOVED HERE IN 2004 AND JOHN HYDE MURDERED FIVE PEOPLE IN ONE DAY IN 2005 AND HE WAS GOING TO AA MEETINGS BUT WAS OFF HIS MEDS. HE WAS DIAGNOSED AS A PARANOID SCHIZIPHRENIC AND GOT SENT TO THE LOONY BIN FOR LIFE. HE WAS PROFILED ON 48 HOURS, MAYBE SOME GURU TOLD HIM TO GET OFF HIS MEDS.

MY BIG THING IS TO SAY TO THE RELAPSERS, WHAT IF YOU KILL MY WIFE AND DAUGHTER, WHAT AM I SUPPOSED TO DO GIVE YOU A BIG HUG AND WELCOME YOU BACK TO THE FLOCK, I WAS IN RELAPSE FOR 25 YEARS.

KEEP UP YOUR GREAT WORK IN EXPOSING AA FOR WHAT IT IS AND WHAT IT ISN`T. OUR COUNTRY NEEDS TO BE DEPROGRAMMED BUT IT IS ALL ABOUT MONEY.

RUSTY

Hi Rusty,

Thanks for the letter. That's interesting. I'd like to hear more about the Betty Ford Clinic.

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             orange@orange-papers.info        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     The virtue in most request is conformity. Self-reliance
**     is its aversion. It loves not realities and creators,
**     but names and customs.
**        ==  Ralph Waldo Emerson [1803—1882] Self Reliance

[The previous letter from Kevin is here.]

Date: Tue, October 19, 2010 7:57 pm     (answered 5 November 2010)
From: "kevin g."
Subject: Re:

thanks for your reply.. I guess you missed my point. I agree with you 1000% about Buchman. read that again, I agree with you 1000% about Franky boy. What I do know is that Sam split from the Oxford group. That is a fact. Obviously the reasons he was attracted to him changed and he didn't want to be around it anymore. I wasn't alive when all of this took place so I cannot and will never know what was in the heart of him. All I know is that because of his work many people with all sorts of issues can practice the 12 step principles which evolved out of the 4 absolutes etc.. (whether one agrees with it or not) and if one says nobody turned their life around because of those steps I guess they believed the holocaust never happened also.

Hello again, Kevin,

I don't think I missed the point. Yes, Rev. Sam Shoemaker quit Frank Buchman's organization, finally, but only after spending 20 years serving Frank Buchman and promoting Buchman's heretical occult religion, and telling lies for Frank Buchman.

There is nothing wonderful about people practicing Bill Wilson's 12 Steps, which are Bill's rewrite of Frank Buchman's cult practices. The evidence is that the 12 Steps harm people.

Your reference to the holocaust is very bad, broken logic. You think that I should just accept testimonials as evidence, which is yet another standard propaganda trick, and if I won't, then it is like denying the holocaust? No, the holocaust is real well-documented history, with plenty of photographs of the stacks of dead bodies. A few nutcases raving that a cult religion really made them very happy is evidence of insanity, nothing more. It's the same thing as Tom Cruise jumping up and down on the couch and proclaiming that Scientology knows more about the human mind than all of the psychiatrists in the world. Are you ready to believe Tom Cruise's testimonials and claims that Scientology is the only real working cure for drug and alcohol problems?

Also have you ever believed in something with all your heart only to find out that you missed the point. I know I have on more than one occassion.(I am human so it makes sense that I have and will make mistakes. God save those who are perfect.. I have learned that we need to be careful and investigate everything we dable in or else we pay the price. As I believe you do too.

You mean have I ever made a mistake, or thought a wrong thought, only to later learn the truth? Of course. That is called "being human".

I have to admit you made me smile and laugh with your line about Deligitimize Criticism and Rebuttal in Advance. It is obvious you are a lot more educated than me. I didn't even know they had a name for what I said. But to answer you confusion.. You contrdict yourself and don't even see it.So when I said "please don't ask me about how i came to that conclusion." I figured you spent so much time getting all the facts that you would at least spend time to see where you contradicted yourself.. Seriously... that is not an attack that is just what I really believed.. Even Carl Sagan would agree with me on that one remember "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof."

That is muddled thinking. How do I supposedly contradict myself?

And yes, Carl Sagan was right when he said that "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence." To claim that something good comes from practicing Frank Buchman's cult religion is an outrageous extraordinary claim. So where is your strong evidence?

Also Bill W. gave most of the credit to Sam not Frank. He to parted ways with with Frank .. a point you seem to conveniently not address

Bill Wilson invoked the name of Sam Shoemaker repeatedly because he did not want to even mention Frank Buchman's name, because the public hated Frank Buchman for his support for Adolf Hitler, and praise of the Nazis, and helping draft-dodgers to avoid having to fight against Hitler. So Bill Wilson did not mention Frank Buchman at all when talking about the Oxford Group, like this:

"Early AA got it's ideas of self-examination, acknowledgement of character defects, restitution for harm done, and working with others straight from the Oxford Groups and directly from Sam Shoemaker, their former leader in America, and nowhere else."
Alcoholics Anonymous Comes Of Age, William G. Wilson, page 39.

I also mentioned Bill Wilson leaving the Oxford Group. Specifically, they kicked Bill out for refusing to follow orders.

just to let you know I doubt his white light experience, but it doesn't mean he didn't believe he had it. I am not one to believe wild claims like Paul in the Bible falling off his horse.

As a matter of fact, I have read the bible but have to say I don't think it is infallable, but it doesn't mean there isn't wisdom in that book. The Tao Te Ching, The Bhagavad Gita, The Dhamapada. All are books on wisdom that people in our age still don't seem to grasp.

Dr. Bob and his group in Akron Ohio, used Oxford Group principles but they also were very devoted to reading the scriptures daily

There were no "Oxford Group principles", just cult practices and slogans. Their real principles were things like, "Lie and decieve to get more members and money."

The James Club daily reading of 1st Corinth 13 the Book of James and the Sermon on the Mount.. also the more one studies the history they see that

I don't see you mentioning this anywhere in your paper. And maybe you weren't supposed to, I don't know.

That doesn't make any sense. What are you talking about? I have certainly mentioned that Dr. Bob was a religious nutcase who used the Bible a lot. See a previous correspondence about that and the Book of James, here and here and here.

I guess that is really why I had issue with your very well written work.

You don't have all the facts.. I can honestly say I agree with a lot of what you have found to be B.S. with Frank B. and maybe you might even have some dirt on Sam,Bill, and all the rest. You probably could find dirt on every single human being in the world.. But as a great man once said, "Let him who has not sinned throw the first stone."

What facts don't I have? You have not brought any new facts to the table.

And your line about not throwing the first stone is out of place here. Jesus said "Don't kill the woman with stones." He never said, "Don't tell the truth, and don't criticize the evil people." Remember that Jesus was very busy with that whip when he found a den of thieves in the Temple. Jesus didn't throw stones, but he swung a mean whip.

I ask you one question. Have you any faults have you never done wrong.

If your answer is no please don't respond to my email. if your answer is yes, then I would enjoy to further my countenance with you as you seem to be on the ball, a lot more than me, and I know the best way to improve myself is to surround myself with those who are smatter than me.

Of course I have faults and have done wrong. I am human, after all.

But my faults do not make it okay for a gang of thieves to foist a $20 billion fraud on sick people, selling cult religion as a cure for alcohol addiction.

Kevin.R G.

Have a good day, Kevin.

== Orange

*             orange@orange-papers.info        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**    Carl Sagan's rule: "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence."
**    The far-fetched claims of Bill Wilson that Frank Buchman's cult religion
**    could cure alcoholism have not been backed up by even a little ordinary
**    evidence, never mind some extraordinary evidence.

[The next letter from Kevin is here.]

May 20, 2009, Wednesday: Day 20, continued: Canada Goose Gosling I'm not sure which family this youngster is part of.

[The story of Carmen continues here.]

[The previous letter from Myra is here.]

Date: Tue, October 19, 2010 9:45 pm     (answered 5 November 2010)
From: myra
Subject: Re: Agent Orange

Thank you for finally responding to me, I had to go over and over this to figure it out. I got it now . I quit alcohol 205 days ago. I was in AA the first four months, not because I wanted to, I thought I had too. I am glad I am a strong-willed woman. I never wanted to go the AA route if I quit drinking, it was the first thing I ever said almost two years ago. After three months I really was wanting out and a sponsor and her husband that were like robots, saying the same thing repeated all the time. Even staring into their faces seemed robotic.

She has been in the program 25 years and her husband 26 years. I go and get my 4 month chip and her husband gets his 2nd month. After 26 years I would say he doesn't even get the 1st step and should try something different. She basically fed me to the wolves when I was asserting myself about this program, and when I brought up Orange Papers and sent her the website, needless to say that was the end..... she dumped me without even talking to me about it. She was my only ride out here in the woods to meetings as I have too many medical problems to drive. Its been 3 months now without AA and I am happy.

One other thing, I sent you that info because my friend didn't get it, when I told her about you, hell I dont really get it but I believed you when I stumbled upon your website a couple of years ago, and you are the reason for my anti AA................. thank you for enlightening newbies like me. I have unsubscribed to all AA groups, my big book is back to the only one I believe and that is the bible. Again. Thanks.

Myra

Hello Myra,

Thanks for the response, and the compliments. I'm glad to hear that you are doing well.

Sorry about the slowness of the responses — I'm usually backlogged on answering email, and am again.

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             orange@orange-papers.info        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**    A flawed idea that AA is built upon:  The idea that a deeply flawed person
**    will cure another deeply flawed person.  A dynamic fraught with peril.
**    == Anonymous

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Last updated 25 August 2013.
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