Date: Mon, October 26, 2009 6:54 am     (answered 27 November 2009)
From: "cracklin synapse"
Subject: AA

Orange:

I saved your site about six months ago and finally started reading a bit more today. I'm so glad I did. While I don't agree with some of your assertions regarding AA, because I don't believe there is sufficient justification for the generalizations, they are largely true.

My own experience bears that out. I don't operate in authority paradigms and have had to confine myself to the AA fringes. It's been many years and I've gone about half of them with minimal attendance at meetings. I do that to keep away from these unhealthy and counter-productive aspects of "the program," and the members that are "true believers." If I had to be a "part of" all that the majority of AA is, I couldn't have stayed sober six months. I did have the experience of binge drinking as a consequence of forced abstinence without any actually useful therapy. It is much like fundamentalism in that way. I imagine one of those televangelists, being all Godly for six months, then getting caught in a compromising situation with a prostitute, and making a big display of repentance. It's a control scenario in cults.

You mention Pacific Group and one other. That is more than a group. It's been a movement impacting AA everywhere. I think it's very dangerous, and the most illustrative example for most of your points, (at least the ones I've read so far).

Well, I didn't write to go on and on and I won't. You've done a great job collecting resources and documentation... with a very coherent, systematic and logically progressive presentation. You have a PhD in "what's fucked up about AA."

My own experience bears it out and I've been a member for 28 years... 22 sober now. I took their assertions of liberality, inclusiveness, egalitarianism, and "no pressure to conform," as gospel, and thrown it back at them for the entire time. I encourage irreverence, individuality and resources of support outside of AA. I covertly run interference when some wack job old timer is yarfing at some hapless court referee. That system of referring people from the courts is pure evil. It's unconstitutional and I don't believe it helps people all that much. Now around here, most of the people in AA got into AA that way and they are the system's biggest proponents. It has become entrenched. On the court side and industry side, it's all about the money and kick backs to legislators. On the AA side? I don't know... maybe they're selling Big Books.

On a personal note, my own sister had five years sober when she committed suicide in a most horrible way. I know that she didn't "believe in doctors," a long time before she went to AA or CODA or ACOA. Nevertheless, she was in denial, bipolar and delusional at the end. You would think that someone in her life, in her home group could have referred her appropriately. I was thousands of miles away, and we were never close. Still, the unspoken dogma that AA is a panacea for all of life's problems, still inclines "true believers" to put themselves into other people's lives, inappropriately and destructively.

Enough of a fan letter. You're cranky, obsessed, confrontative and smart; but passionate and sincere. I think you're also about 80% right. I'm saving your site for the wealth of information it provides and will be returning to read more in the weeks ahead.

Thanks for your work.

Dan

Hi Dan,

Thanks for the letter and the compliments.

I'm sorry to hear about your sister. It's sad that not one person in her group told her to see a doctor and get on some medications. They are so anti-medications. That is one of the biggest criticisms that I have of A.A. and its 12-Step brethren. They have killed a lot of people with their attitude of — "We know more than doctors; stop taking your meds; trust the 12 Steps to heal you."

Oh well, have a good day anyway.

== Orange

*             orange@orange-papers.info        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     Men grind and grind in the mill of a truism, and nothing
**     comes out but what was put in.  But the moment they desert
**     the tradition for a spontaneous thought, then poetry, wit,
**     hope, virtue, learning, anecdote, all flock to their aid.
**      ==  Ralph Waldo Emerson [1803—1882]
**          Literary Ethics [1838]

UPDATE: There is now an entire file of A.A. "No Medications" horror stories, here: A.A. "No Meds" Stories.

Date: Tue, October 27, 2009 11:22 am     (answered 27 November 2009)
From: Taerodmoon
Subject: wilson blog

What an angry, sad little fellow. My heart goes out to you. I hope you find rest

Hi Taero,

Don't worry about me. I'm doing just fine.

So you have a good day now.

== Orange

*             orange@orange-papers.info        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     An institution is the lengthened shadow of one man.
**        ==  Ralph Waldo Emerson [1803—1882] Self Reliance

Date: Tue, October 27, 2009 1:47 am     (answered 27 November 2009)
From: "joe b."
Subject:

Hey,

i just wanted to thank you for your insight! a month in the program i relapsed on the second step because the program had me thinking my consciousness was my higher power. my consciousness stopped telling me to do good deeds and start acting out of paranoia. i was confused about if it was god or just my own insight. i ruled this out and ended up drinking because i felt that relapse was necessary as a part of recovery that AA taught in a meeting.

A week later i had a debate with my sponsor about the first step and he immediately told me things like refrain from the debating society and your best of thoughts got you in here. further in the conversation he told me unless i admit that i am powerless to alcohol he cannot help me. Then he told me i should probably go out, drink, and figure it out on my own if i cannot be honest with myself.

that right there told me that AA is dangerous stuff. you saved me lots of time i could have wasted in confusion and utter frustration with contradicting teachings. AA is a virus and its old members claim anyone who has little time and disagrees is insane under any circumstance.

However, one thing i should note is that AA has provided me with confidence in public speaking and many sober friends who i can relate too. whenever i bring these papers up to my AA friends and they actually read what you have to say the experience is similar, they come out of the fog and untangle from the web of lies.

Take Care :)

Hello Joe,

Thanks for the letter. I hope you are doing well. It sounds like you have your head screwed on straight, so I think you will make it.

Have a good day and a good life.

== Orange

*             orange@orange-papers.info        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     The virtue in most request is conformity. Self-reliance
**     is its aversion. It loves not realities and creators,
**     but names and customs.
**        ==  Ralph Waldo Emerson [1803—1882] Self Reliance

Date: Tue, October 27, 2009 1:31 pm     (answered 27 November 2009)
From: "Lisa R."
Subject: My Sister in AA

You know I have read a lot of what you have posted and I can't agree any more. It is insane to tell someone like my sister who was bi-polar and suffering from so much, that she should

• 1. Stop taking all medications (she carried so much guilt because she wanted to continue to take her medication)

• 2. Conduct an inventory of herself (stir all those self-loathing feelings up — like feeling guilty for having an abortion didn't kill her already — now let's talk about how she killed the child that her sponsor (who is unable to have children) can't have — oh she's really going to understand)

• 3. Write down how everyone hurt you and you hurt them and how it affected you (seriously — how the hell was her sponsor a 24 your old travel agent with 1 year of sobriety qualified to discuss sexual abuse issues with my sister)

• 4. Tell her that her sobriety was more important than her family.

My sister died last month, I don't blame AA completely but I feel that they definitely contributed to her death. She struggled with her 4th and 5th step for 1 1/2 years before she completed them this July. These people don't have a freaking clue as to what people really need to stay sober. Yes having faith helps, but there is so much more that is needed. It is un-bearable to not have her here, and even worse, that she felt that this group was the "God" given answer to her problems.

Thank you for letting me tell her story. By the way — she died of an apparent cocaine overdose — we will have toxicology reports back in a few months.

What they sell is cult-like lies, and fantasy dreams of how someone is going to become and stay sober. What a lie!

-Please do not disclose my email address-

Lisa R.

Hello Lisa,

Thank you for the letter. I'm sorry to hear about your loss. It seems like there have been a lot lately.

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             orange@orange-papers.info        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     Things are in the saddle,
**     And ride mankind.
**       ==  Ralph Waldo Emerson [1803—1882] Ode Inscribed to W. H. Channing

Date: Wed, October 28, 2009 3:16 am     (answered 27 November 2009)
From: "mook c."
Subject: aa

Hey there,

I just read your blog about aa, I'm quite sceptical about it too which led me to your page. I have a few questions though:

What do you really think Bill is up to by starting this cult — what does he get out of it ? What does the cult get out of it?

Ive been to aa meetings — yeah theres the god thing — but in no way is it forced. In fact its seemed to me to be a bit difficult to get involved in aa — sure people are nice to you, but theres no forcing of opinions or pressure to join like any other group ive ever known. ANY group.

ive met some alocohilics/ drug addicts in my time and ive met recovered addicts that have been to na/ aa. The former have had shit lives and caused society major problems, the latter seem to be happy and making ammends.

There was never any forcefull preaching I found. What is wrong with this in your opinion ? What damage, in your opinion, does aa do? Are you trying to reach out to people with your page? If not what are we supposed to do? You've told us aa is no good — so now what for us ?

Im in no way an aa advocate — but i need something and i found some peace in one of these meetings recenty, not from god but from people — talking honestly and reaching out to other people, and for the first time I stopped thinking about myself and started thinking about others. This solved all my problems, at least for a while. I dont know where else I can get this feeling — and i dont want to cause myself or others in this world anymore pain.

Anyway thats my story, appreciate your feedback.

Thanks

Marc

Hello Marc,

Well, starting at the top, we have discussed what people get out of A.A., and why they keep coming back, several times, so let me point you to the lists.

• here
• here
• here

== Orange

*             orange@orange-papers.info        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     'If merely "feeling good" could decide, drunkenness
**     would be the supremely valid human experience.'
**       ==  William James (1842—1910), U.S. psychologist,
**           philosopher, in "The Varieties Of Religious
**           Experience", lecture 1, "Religion and Neurology" (1902)

Date: Wed, October 28, 2009 7:28 am     (answered 27 November 2009)
From: SherwoodE
Subject: aa sponsors

HI Orange,

Great site. So many of the AA sponsors are self appointed gurus like the emperor with no clothes, self-enamored in delusion. Keep up the good work giving people options for recovery from alcohol problems.

Sherwoode

Hi Sherwoode,

Thanks for the compliments, and you have a good day too now.

== Orange

*             orange@orange-papers.info        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**         Common sense is not so common.
**          ==  Voltaire (1694—1778)

Date: Tue, October 27, 2009 11:00 pm     (answered 27 November 2009)
From: "Al Z."
Subject: viewing some of your web postings.

What in the world is your problem with AA? If you don't like it...leave it. It'll still be there when/if you change your mind.

The people I know who attend meetings are neither Bill W nor Dr. Bob. Sadly they passed on years ago.

So why the anger? You might take a look at it.

Hello Al,

I left A.A. many years ago. Unfortunately, A.A. and the Stepper True Believers and the 12-Step Treament Centers are still foisting cult religion and quack medicine on sick people. That is why I write about them.

If A.A. would go away and leave the sick people alone, I'd leave it alone. But that isn't what A.A. is about. No way is A.A. going to stop participating in coercive recruiting and deceptive recruiting, and treatment centers charging many thousands of dollars for a 28-day introduction to 12-Step religion. That's how A.A. gets its new members.

Have a good day.

== Orange

*             orange@orange-papers.info        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     And the believers said, "If you want what we
**     have, and are willing to go to any length to
**     get it, then, here, drink this koolaid."

Date: Wed, October 28, 2009 7:38 pm     (answered 27 November 2009)
From: "Mike B."
Subject: Bill Wilson on Drugs

Hey, Terry,

In their attention to minutiae and pursuit of the obscure, someone over at historylovers asked the question "What was Bill Wilson taking when he spoke of "goofballs"? After much debate, discussion, and dissertation, this was posted.

In the end, interesting info. LSD and the belladonna cocktail weren't Bill's only ventures into the realm of the psychedelic.

Mike

Hi Mike,

Thanks for the note. The first thing that I noticed was how Bill Wilson was again declaring that all alcoholics are just as bad as him. That is The "Us Stupid Drunks" Conspiracy yet again.

Bill Wilson and A.A. said that they wanted to remove the stigma of alcoholism, but they actually constantly worked to make it worse. "Don't let the alcoholic have the bottle."

The lesson is, You can't trust an alcoholic. He will screw things up every time.

Oh well, have a good day anyway.

== Orange

*             orange@orange-papers.info        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     Hast thou named all the birds without a gun?
**     Loved the wood-rose, and left it on its stalk?
**       ==  Ralph Waldo Emerson [1803—1882] Forebearance

Date: Thu, October 29, 2009 9:41 am     (answered 27 November 2009)
From: "Andrew E."
Subject: Why do you hate AA do Much?

Why do you hate AA so much. Is your heart filled with that much hatred towards all? Please let me know.

God bless you;

Drew (a 32 year sober Christian active in AA)

Hello Drew,

No, my heart is not filled with hatred for all. But I do have a resentment against criminals who foist quack medicine on sick people. Do you approve of that crime?

Since you claim to be a Christian, please read the file on The Heresy of the Twelve Steps, and then explain to me how you manage to ignore the gross contradictions and conflicts between Christian beliefs and Dr. Frank N. D. Buchman's cult religion practices and beliefs.

Have a good day.

== Orange

*             orange@orange-papers.info        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask
**     for bread, will he give him a stone?
**       ==  Jesus Christ, quoted in Matthew VII, 9

Date: Thu, October 29, 2009 2:50 pm     (answered 27 November 2009)
From: "Trudy N."
Subject: orange-papers

Dear Mr 'orange'-

I have recently stumbled onto your site while doing some research for an on-line class I am taking. Though I initially 'felt' your site a bit hostile toward the 12-step program, after reading a lot of the articles and doing a bit of thinking (yes some of us 12-steppers go beyond the cultic knee-jerk, and do think) I must first thank you for letting me see from where a lot of animosity toward the 12-step program stems. No — not from you, but from the humanistic mistakes of members, present and former, some much worse than others. And I do agree that there are some people and groups who are very small minded, legalistic, closed minded, etc. Yet there are some of us that have taken the original principals, as written, not necessarily as practised by the originators (who were only humans), and applyed them as best we know how. "Principles before personalities"

I congratulate you on your use of the SMART program to maintain your sobriety. In my studies I am finding several other mutual-help groups which have helped others stay clean and sober. Though they would not have worked for me early in my sobriety (I could have rationalized myself right back to the bottom of the scotch bottle), and I may not understand nor agree with their principles or methods, I do respect that there is not a 'universal cure', with one program fitting all. As we are in a rural area of the country, these other groups (SMART, WFS, MM) are not accessible to us, yet I will keep an open mind as I continue to read the literature and investigate the beliefs and workings of the other various programs. In the meantime, I also keep a close eye to the 12-step groups which my clients attend, as well as the individuals they choose to sponser them. If we (other counselors and myself) do not believe the sponser is appropritae (i.e. working an honest program, non-dictatorial, not letting the client think and do for themselves, etc) we suggest they find another. We also do not carbon copy pages from a Big Book or other 'propaganda' materials to 'indotrinate' our clients, though we do require they attend so many meetings each week, depending on the phase level at which they are. Therapy will not last forever, and we believe that a good outside mutual-help group is essential for continued sobriety and re-integration in a healthy manner.

I guess, after reading a lot of the 'hate mail' from those who propose to follow the 12-step precepts (especially "live and let live"), I just needed to put in my 2 cents and let you know that not all of us 12-steppers are closed minded or cultic. I have been in the 12-step program for over 20 years now, and it has worked for me. Thank you for your time and attention.

Sincerely,
Trudy N.

"Life is not about waiting for the storms to pass... it's about learning how to dance in the rain."
— Unknown

Hello Trudy,

Thank you for the letter. I am very aware of the fact that there are occasionally some very nice people who show up at A.A. meetings, and I have said so repeatedly. (Look here and here and here. Also see the Newcomer Rescue League, here.)

Unfortunately, the nice people do not offset the harm done by the sexual predators and the crazies and the fanatics, and the inherently unhealthy 12-Step program.

Nice people like you do not make up for A.A. super-groups that are cults of personality like Mike Q.'s 'Midtown Group', or Clancy I.'s Pacific Group. (More Pacific info here and here and here and here, and more Midtown stories here.)

This statement makes an incorrect assumption:

I congratulate you on your use of the SMART program to maintain your sobriety.

== Orange

*             orange@orange-papers.info        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     Can anybody remember when the times were not hard
**     and money not scarce?
**       ==  Ralph Waldo Emerson [1803—1882] Works and Days

2012.01.04: It's been over two years, and still no answer about the success rate of 12-Step-based treatment.

Date: Thu, October 29, 2009 1:22 pm
From: nrgtc
Subject:

Your anger is showing.

Date: Sat, October 31, 2009 9:49 pm     (answered 27 November 2009)
From: "nate p."
Subject: Orange Papers

The nail has been hit on the AA head.

Fantastic — I am speechless. Excellent!

Bravo!

Hail!

Hi Nate,

Thanks for all of the compliments. You have a good day too.

== Orange

*             orange@orange-papers.info        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     The true test of civilization is, not the census,
**     nor the size of the cities, nor the crops —
**     no, but the kind of man the country turns out.
**       ==  Ralph Waldo Emerson [1803—1882] Civilization

May 17, 2009, Sunday: Day 17 The "Family of 9", doing their convoy thing again

[The story of Carmen continues here.]

Date: Sun, November 1, 2009 4:34 am     (answered 28 November 2009)
From: "john o."
Subject: Jesus Christ

Orange,

Thank you for your site.

How do you and Jesus Christ relate to each other?

— John

Hello John,

Thanks for the letter. And the answer is, "Just fine. We could sit down together at dinner and have a good old time."

As I have said many times, I am not an atheist. I am simply opposed to lying evil cult religions that hurt people, things like Scientology, the Moonies, and Alcoholics Anonymous.

Have a good day.

== Orange

*             orange@orange-papers.info        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**      The tree is known by his fruit.
**        ==  Jesus Christ, quoted in Matthew XII, 33

Date: Sun, November 1, 2009 11:01 am     (answered 28 November 2009)
From: "peter t."
Subject: Hello

Dear Orange:

you are doing to me what you claim AA does to everyone else — fill me with folly and fear.

Sure. I agree with you. I have thought those things about AA for many years. I have been real real slow at getting deeply involved with AA. I have a lot of trouble staying sober even though I want to stay sober. but treatment centers (all of them) point to AA. There are no other alternatives. I used to be able to quit alone, but lately I have been less successful at staying sober. Where else do I go? What else do I do? I dont have any answers. AA really doesn't have any answers. I'm still basically atheist, as I always have been. I guess I/m totally fucked? Cant stay sober. Cant do AA. There's nothing else....... There is no cure?

Those higher up the ladder quit more easily...My drinking and drugging did get worse. It used to be much easier to just stop.

WHAT DO U RECOMMEND? Tell me. Just stop? Unless I talk to someone about how I feel, I usually bottle it up and explode back to drinking. Treatment does not work... AA does not work... what works?

Hello Peter,

Well, I sure don't want to make you feel like nothing works. Something does work, actually, several things work.

The first and most important thing that works is You. You are not insane or powerless over alcohol. You can use your own native intelligence and will power to improve your life. (That is in fact the one "article of faith" in SMART.)

We have talked many times about what works, and what helps. Here are three links to some raps about helpful things and lists of links to more things:

1. here
2. here
3. here

== Orange

*             orange@orange-papers.info        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
** Often a non-Christian knows something about the earth,
** the heavens, and the other parts of the world, about the
** motions and orbits of the stars and even their sizes and
** distances,...  and this knowledge he holds with certainty
** from reason and experience.  It is thus offensive and
** disgraceful for an unbeliever to hear a Christian talk
** nonsense about such things, claiming that what he is
** saying is based in Scripture.  We should do all that we
** can to avoid such an embarrassing situation, which people
** see as ignorance in the Christian and laugh to scorn.
**    ==  St. Augustine, De Genesi ad litteram libri duodecim

Date: Mon, November 2, 2009 4:53 am     (answered 28 November 2009)
From: "KC"
Subject: thank you very much I have needed to read your stuff.

You know I REALLY appreciate your efforts with the orange papers. None of this AA stuff has made me sober...thought i keep working it. I still go but I am mostly quiet. I am 8 yrs in the program with 8 weeks of "AA sobriety" mostly because I started taking Wellbutrin, and listening to my DOCTOR and reading your papers. I wish there was a rational recovery in my area and wished I had stumbled upon your stuff thanks again for your help!

My question, after reading some of your site and reading the Francis Hartigan book, I was wondering in your opinion, do you think Bill's "depressions" were just guilt or do you think he was a chronic relapser as well. I keep getting this feeling through reading "biographies" and papers/net stuff that he was relapsing. The people around him prop'ed him up. I mean the reason this begs the question is the financial stuff. That's a lot of money to be in gray areas. Therefore it begs the question... was it booze money? I mean i "know" this feeling of needing "re-conversion" which Hartigan wrote about Bill's questing for after the "hot-flash"

This i have "looked" for too because I can't stay sober for long term. Though it is not really that big of a deal now that I am taking wellbutrin — it has made my drinking less serious though I am not able to get the old buzz going... i drink for a few hours instead of major binges. But i have these episodes of depression only after drinking, mostly cause of what I now believe in the brainwashing effect of the AA cult. I don't really buy into the depressions so much now that I read your papers. Maybe I am a normal drinker with a head full of AA shit.

I will report back if i don't die an "alcoholic death," LoL

KC

Hello KC,

Thanks for the letter and the compliments, and a great question.

Unfortunately, there is no documented answer, so all that I can do is some guesswork, drawing inferences from what little information is available.

I have repeatedly been told that Bill Wilson relapsed often. One old veteran who had been in and out of A.A. for 30 years said, "Heck, one of them [the Founders] was relapsing all of the time."

A correspondent wrote,

in case you didn't know, throughout his life, bill wilson was never sober for more than a year. when he died, he had less than a year's sobriety.
it is a subject that is forbidden in a.a.

== Orange

*             orange@orange-papers.info        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     There will be future historical revelations about Bill's character
**    and behavior in recovery that will be interpreted, by some,
**    as direct attacks on the very foundation of AA.
**      ==  Bill W., My First 40 Years, "William G. Wilson"
**              (posthumously ghost-written by Hazelden staff), Hazelden, page 170.

Date: Mon, November 2, 2009 11:29 am     (answered November 2, 2009)
From: "gloria"
Subject: Thank you

Dear Orange

Thank you so much for all your hard work

Please know that it has helped me

blessings,
gloria

Hi Gloria,

Thanks for the thanks, and I trust that you are doing well.

So have a good day.

== Orange

*             orange@orange-papers.info        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
** "Now I know what it's like to be high on life.
** It isn't as good, but my driving has improved."
**   ==  Nina, on "Just Shoot Me", 13 Jan 2006.

Date: Mon, November 2, 2009 1:14 pm     (answered 28 November 2009)
From: "KC"
Subject: Further Bill W agreed in the Lois Secretaries Book Bill W

Some place in it Bill says that the social environment is the cause of addiction... or something to that effect.

KC

Hi again, KC,

I'll have to check on that. It wouldn't surprise me. At various times, Bill Wilson said that a zillion different things caused alcoholism, ranging from selfishness and unconfessed sins, to nagging wives. See the list here.

Date: Wed, November 4, 2009 7:45 am     (answered 28 November 2009)
From: "KC"
Subject: von Arx...

Didn't Bill W work for marine midland? he tried to selling marine supplies or something like that while newly sober.

I'm not sure about that. What I recall about Marine Midland is that the banker Wallace C. von Arx worked there.

Documents about the financial history of A.A. show that Mr. von Arx was an early financial supporter of the Big Book project. He was probably also an early member of A.A. That means that Bill Wilson and Wallace C. von Arx certainly knew each other, and it is possible that Mr. von Arx gave Bill Wilson a job for a while.

I'll have to check further to see if there are any other references or factoids to be found.

Date: Wed, November 4, 2009 8:35 am     (answered 28 November 2009)
From: "KC"
Subject: WTF!

Fuck dude, this part makes me sick to my stomach. I'd been in this nutcase's care for the past six- eight years and bought it...fuck. It is so fn obvious now. I know all this stuff I've read everything but this site. Now it comes to me. Thank you again.

KC

KC

Yeh, somehow I don't think I would go to Bill Wilson for advice on mental health issues. (Or for spirituality, or for sobriety, or ...)

Oh well, have a good day anyway.

== Orange

*             orange@orange-papers.info        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**    By necessity, by proclivity, and by delight, we all quote.
**      ==  Ralph Waldo Emerson [1803—1882]
**          Letters and Social Aims. Quotation and Originality

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Last updated 14 February 2015.
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