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Hello, I just wanted to say hello & thank you for your site. After nearly 30 years of drinking, in and out of AA, 2 outpatient and 4 inpatient rehabs, six months ago I finally realised that I'd better knock it off. So on 12 February of this year I stopped. Period. I made the decision not to consume any more alcohol. No steps, no "family of origin" therapy, no "inner child" work. none of that bullshit. Consuming alcohol was destroying me so I stopped. Congratulations! That is great. Welcome to the club. You may disagree, but I'm convinced that the vitamin regimen I put myself on has made the difference in my not having cravings. Basically what alcohol is is ROTTEN FOOD. Rotten grains, rotten potatoes, rotten grapes...all of that would've destroyed the health had I decided to continue my self-destructive path.
Oh, I don't disagree — I totally agree. Alcohol is a carbohydrate, and your
body uses it as food — albeit a very bad food that has no vitamins, no protein,
no nuthin'. It's just empty calories.
Worse yet, alcohol leeches all of the B vitamins out of your body,
so in that way it is actually a negative food — the more you eat, the hungrier
you are.
Personally, I am almost a vitamin freak. I take a lot of them, and I know that
they improve my health. I am still repairing my brain and growing new brain cells,
and the B vitamins help. They all help, so I take everything.
What I'm taking now is:
I take all of that morning and evening, so I'm getting double the dose.
A friend saw me gobbling down a big fistful of vitamins and mineral supplements,
and remarked that I must really have some bad medical conditions. I laughed and
told him that they were all vitamins and minerals — that there was only one
prescription drug in the whole mess, and that was just for heartburn. The rest was
to keep me from getting sick, and they work too.
Of course, you are much better off if you are eating good food — especially good fruits
and vegetables — to start with. But those vitamins are still great.
I can't recommend them enough. It is so much easier to stay clean and sober if
you are healthy and feel good. You don't have to get stoned to kill the pain.
And the vitamins really do make a difference in the long run. It's subtle but powerful.
— Meaning, it isn't like you get instantly "rocketed into the 4th dimension of existence"
just from taking some vitamins, but over the years, they really do make a difference.
Later on I'll send you a more detailed message, but I wanted to touch on what was discussed about Nichiren Shoshu back in Letters XXXI. I joined the Gakkai and received Gojukai (vows to uphold Nichiren Daishonin's Buddhism back in 1984. Yes, it is a cult in the worse sense of the word, and has only gotten worse since Nichiren Shoshu ordered Daisaku Ikeda to step down from his position in 1991. I stuck around for a few years until I wised up and left the Gakkai in 1996. I still practice Nichiren Shoshu Buddhism to-day. Our meetings are very low-key, none of that materialist frenzy you saw in earlier years. We talk more about spiritual well-being, WE DO NOT encourage people to chant for cars, money, mates, etc. Ah, interesting. Later I'll get into more detail. But for now thanks for being out there with the TRUTH.
As always,
Hi Tim,
Thanks for the letter. I look forwards to the next one.
And you have a good day now.
== Orange
[Tim's next letter is here.] 
[The story of Carmen continues here.]
Hello, again, I'm thinking that you used to appear on Addict-L from time to time.
Hello again, Mike,
Correct. In fact, I am still, to the best of my knowledge, subscribed to the list,
and have all of the messages piling up in a mailbox that is just for them.
But I haven't gotten in there and read the messages in a couple of years.
More work for a rainy day.
If so, you may have encountered the mentioned individual. He is a real shaker and mover in the European addictions treatment industry, and has been for quite some time. Anyhow, I just came across this today after reading his smug hostility directed at those critical of the step movement.
Enjoy. Thanks for the input. I'll have to learn more about him.
That's sad. There are so many "drug and alcohol experts" who turn out to
have a big problem. But I suppose that just comes with the territory. It's like
so many psychiatrists being nuts. The reason that many people go into such fields
is because they have the problem, and start off trying to learn how to
cure themselves, and then go into the business of curing others because they
think they know what they are doing.
But the problem of possible relapse is always there.
It is very curious that he was drinking in a shed so that his wife wouldn't
know that he was drinking.
Was he supposed to be "in recovery" and abstaining from drinking?
And he was keeping a bottle of whiskey hidden in a shed, which sounds just like Dr. Bob's
Story in the Big Book, hiding alcohol wherever his wife wouldn't find it.
That behavior and the two drunk driving arrests indicate
someone with a real alcohol problem.
From the way you say "Rowdy Yates" attacks those who are critical
of the "Step movement" (which is not really a "movement"),
he sounds like he is a true believer in the 12 Steps and Alcoholics Anonymous.
But if "Rowdy Yates" actually practices the 12 Steps himself,
then his case is more evidence that the 12 Step program doesn't actually work.
And if he doesn't practice the 12 Steps himself, then why not? Why doesn't he
practice what he preaches?
Oh well, have a good day anyway.
== Orange
Date: Mon, August 24, 2009 6:59 pm (answered 7 September 2009) Hello, again, I don't know if you can watch Youtube vids yet, but this one is moving. Mike http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lCEabEs589s&feature=email
Okay, I finally saw it. Wow. That is heavy. It's one of the simplest but
most moving and most damning criticisms of A.A. that I've seen.
Definitely worth watching.
That old gentleman was complaining that A.A. had taken his stepson away
from him, saying that he was "enabling" the young man. Social isolation
is one of the standard cult characteristics, or rather, several:
I've had many A.A. members deny that A.A. practices social isolation
—
"Members are free to come and go as they choose. Nobody is holding a gun to their heads."
There may not be any guns, but there are death threats:
"He is enabling you. He will get you killed. Stay away from him."
But then denial is just another standard cult characteristic:
Personally, I never bought the "enabling" excuse. It seems that if anyone
is nice to an alcoholic, or helps him out, that is "enabling".
I don't think so.
This is enabling:
"Hey Joe, I just bought you three more cases of beer, and
three fifths of whiskey. Have a good day."
Date: Tue, August 25, 2009 12:13 pm (answered 9 September 2009) http://blogs.suntimes.com/ebert/2009/08/my_name_is_roger_and_im_an_alc.html Hey, Terry, I am getting all kinds of failure notices when I try to send the entire article. Hopefully, it is on the Suntimes end. Mike
Hi again, Mike,
Okay, I got it. Thanks for the tip. That's very interesting.
One of the most interesting lines was actually,
"The last thing I want to do is start an argument about A.A.."
He says that he was one of those people who quit drinking the instant they walked into
an A.A. meeting room. He says that he never took another drink after that first
A.A. meeting. Obviously, the 12 Steps and the A.A. program were not needed for
sobriety. All that Ebert needed was somebody to say, "We don't drink. Why don't you
quit too?" Ebert was already ready, eager, and willing to quit drinking when
he walked into his first A.A. meeting. All that he needed was the slightest push to get him to go
over to the sobriety side.
I was the same way. I had finally gotten so fed up with the suffering that all that
the doctor had to say was, "Quit drinking or die. Choose one." And that was it.
And now I'm just 6 weeks short of 9 years sober.
People like Ebert and I are the easy cases. The people who aren't ready, eager,
and willing to quit are the difficult problem. And A.A. doesn't work on them at all
well. Even Bill Wilson said so. See the signature.
About Ann Landers: It sounds like she was not actually a member of Alcoholics Anonymous.
If she were a real member, then she would not have needed to ask permission to
go into a closed meeting. I am still puzzled about why she would spend her entire
career promoting Alcoholics Anonymous. Maybe she was just hoodwinked.
Oh well, have a good day anyway.
== Orange
Thanks for your response to my mail about interventions. My recently sober friend has been reading your site and says it really helps to clarify and cut through the bs he had learned in AA. We were talking last weekend about how widespread AA propaganda is among people outside of AA circles. The term "recovering alcoholic" and the idea that sobriety requires more than just quitting the booze has taken root to the point that millions of people see it as a truism. When I express the opinion that abstinence equals sobriety people are often taken aback. Common sense tells us that if you stop ingesting a substance that is hurting you that that is an end in and of itself. AA has so muddied the waters with their 12 steps that people lose their common sense. Even people who have a decade or more of abstinence from booze will actually deny that they have achieved sobriety and refuse to take any credit for it anyway. Sometimes I just want to get a bumper sticker or shout from the roof top "abstinence IS sobriety." just to get others to think about that concept. The act of stopping drinking can be hard enough and then AA tells people it is 12 times more difficult and further it is a life long process. When I read the letter about someone being sent to AA as part of their court sentence I could not help thinking that this could be viewed not as some way to reform the person, but that going to AA is a form of punishment. Cruel and unusual punishment at that. Ron
Hi again, Ron,
Thanks for the letter. You make a bunch of good points. I couldn't agree
more. I don't want to just repeat everything that you said, so I won't.
But I do want to comment on the statement that A.A. has spread some
mistaken ideas
("memes")
so far and wide that "normal" people accept them as truth,
as if they were really wisdom —
like the idea that you must "work a program", and do something
special in order to be "sober" — that just abstaining
from drinking alcohol, even for years, is not fully "sober".
(Whatever that word is really supposed to mean.)
I think that mistake has done a lot of harm, and confused a lot of people.
We even have doctors who should know better recommending membership in
a cult religion as a cure for addictive behavior, because those alcoholics
and addicts "need a program" and "spirituality is good for
some people".
Oh well, have a good day anyway.
== Orange
Orange- Film critic Roger Ebert (of Siskel and Ebert fame) just outed himself today as a 30 year member of AA. He also outed "Ann Landers" in his article (you were right about her being a hidden member of AA).
Check out the article in the Chicago Sun-Times Also of interest: Loran Archer (follow the links re: AA success rate, retention rate, and membership numbers). Incredible.
Hope you and Carmen are well.
Hi again, Jerry,
Yes, we were just talking about that a couple of letters back,
here.
That article really is something else. All praise to Saint Bill and
the Magic Coffee Pot.
The article by Loran Archer
is disgusting, too.
His statistics for the A.A. success rate are totally faked. He actually
has the gall to claim that 32% are still attending at 20 years.
But 32% of what are still attending? Certainly not 32% of the newcomers
to A.A.
Ah, it's 32% of those newcomers who, in his opinion, really tried
and worked a strong program and kept coming back for years
and years.
Loran Archer reveals his use of the propaganda technique of
Lying With Qualifiers
right at the beginning of the article:
THE CORRECT FIGURE IS A CLOSE TO 36% SUCCESS RATE, when measured in the
same way that the government would evaluate success in treating diabetes,
heart disease, or cancer.
But the question was,
"What is the A.A. dropout rate?",
or
"What is the A.A. failure rate?",
not
"What is the success rate of A.A.-based treatment, when measured
as if the FDA were testing a pill for cancer?"
That's quite a switcheroo.
So his whole article is flawed and deceptive as can be.
The trick is to disqualify all of the people who drop out. If we were
testing a medicine, we would not count the people who only took a few
pills and then dropped out of the test. They would not count either
for or against the medicine, no matter what their personal outcome,
because they didn't take the full course of treatment.
They didn't take the pills, so they can't be scored for or against
the medicine.
But with A.A., since it is a semi-voluntary cult religion, only those people
who become true believers keep coming back for years and years. So Loran
Archer is really trying to claim that A.A. works great IF AND ONLY IF
you become a committed member of the cult and keep coming back for years
and years.
And, actually, if the FDA were really testing a pill for cancer, they would
demand double-blind
randomized longitudinal controlled studies,
something that A.A. does not want to participate in, because
those tests have
always revealed that A.A. does not work.
Real controlled studies reveal that people who get no treatment do
as well, or even better, than people who get A.A.-based treatment.
By the way, something that doctors really do consider when prescribing
medicines is how well the patients tolerate the medicine. A medicine
that has such nasty side effects that the patients refuse to continue
taking it won't cure the patients. A.A. falls into that category.
A.A.'s bad side disgusts most people and drives them out.
And a medicine that makes the patients so hopeless and despondent
and depressed that they commit suicide is also no help.
But that is what A.A. does. We have often talked about
the A.A. suicide rate,
and I just received yet another letter
about suicides in A.A. that I will answer soon.
But according to Loran Archer's bad logic, those suicides
don't count against A.A. because those people didn't finish
the A.A. treatment.
On the other hand, I say that A.A. is most assuredly responsible
for driving many people to suicide. Any program that teaches that
you are powerless over alcohol, and can't control your drinking,
and you are such a vile sinner that you are hopelessly defective,
and all that you can do is surrender, is bound to have some bad
side effects.
In fact,
Bill Wilson taught the
A.A. recruiters
to deliberately make the new recruits and prospects feel hopeless:
And then, when those hopeless people decide that they would rather
commit suicide than go on living in A.A., they don't count
in Loran Archer's reckoning.
Oh, and when A.A. members tell the newcomers not to take their
doctor-prescribed medications, and then the newcomers die,
those unfortunate people don't count either.
And when girls are driven out of A.A. by
the old-timer rapists,
those girls don't count either. Heck, none of the A.A. disasters and failures
and drop-outs count in Loran Archer's mathematics.
That's how he gets an absurd sky-high success rate for Alcoholics
Anonymous. Just don't count the failures.
32% get 20 years? Oh yeh, right. And if you believe that, let me sell
you some prime development real estate in the Okeefenokee Swamp.
Oh well, have a good day anyway.
== Orange
P.S.: Also see
the list of A.A. suicide stories, here.
I would like to point out that the first point you make is about the section of Chapter 5 entitled "How it Works" is flawed logically. The quote that you cite specifically says "rarely have we seen a person fail who has thoroughly followed our path". Your argument is that AA is a sham because 90% of people fail in their recovery despite the claim in the citation (although, on an unrelated note, I believe that Terrence Gorsky would argue that it's closer to one-third). Your argument is flawed logically because the citation specifies that only people who fail to "thoroughly follow" the steps and suggestions will fail at recovery. It does not say that everyone who comes to an AA meeting will succeed. It also does not say that anyone who goes to AA meetings every day for the rest of their life will succeed. Simply going to meetings alone will not ensure a successful recovery. I was going to read your article, but that part put me off as to its refutability. Best regards, Ronny L.
Hello Ronny,
I've said many, many times that Bill's grandiose claim on page 58 of
the Big Book is an example of
Lying With Qualifiers.
Bill Wilson was not trying to convey accurate and honest information there; his
goal was to sell the new Alcoholics Anonymous book and make some money.
Bill fully intended to fool people with weasel words.
And today, the deception continues. I have never heard someone interrupt
the reading of the plastic-laminated scriptures at the start of an A.A.
meeting to explain to the newcomers that very few people ever succeed
at "thoroughly following our path".
Nobody will ever say that out loud, and tell the newcomers what really happens.
So it is deception, lying with qualifiers. It is also deception in
another sense: Implying that people who do
"thoroughly follow our path" will succeed at quitting drinking.
But there is no evidence to
support that belief either. Even the people who do Keep Coming Back
and Work The Steps eventually relapse and drop out.
Only one in a hundred beginners makes it for ten years, and only one in a thousand
makes it for twenty.
Furthermore, "thoroughly following our path" is undefined.
Just what did Bill Wilson mean when he said, "thoroughly follow our path"?
The only thing that "thoroughly following our path" can
really mean is quitting drinking. That is what is required to be
a good A.A. member who is "working a strong program"
and "thoroughly following our path".
So that makes Bill's declaration into this nonsense:
Oh well, have a good day anyway.
== Orange
Hi Orange, I just wanted to share an idea I used after I left AA. I had acquired 6 AA books in my 10 months and as they were given to me, I thought I should return them. I took the liberty of marking random pages with "orange@orange-papers.info" in red ink. I am hoping the next newcomer that is given them can read your site before they get indoctrinated! If everyone leaving AA was to do the same thing, we could get the truth out to those who are really vulnerable. Thanks, Chris
Hi Chris,
Thanks for the good wishes. Even better than the email address would be
the URL:
And maybe better than that would be telling the truth in tiny sound-bites,
like "The real retention rate is only 5%."
I thought of you donating the books to the local library, after adding
appropriate comments.
But I wonder if that would work. It seems like some libraries discard books
as soon as somebody writes in them. I can't remember having seen writing
in any of the books that I got from the local library.
So if you donate books with writing to the your library, they may immediately
route them to the next junk sale. I'd check on that, and see what
your local library's policy is. (And then a more distinct possibility
is that the A.A. true believers will make the books disappear after
they have checked them out and seen what else is in them.)
Other activities to get the word out include letters to the editor of
your local newspaper, and articles for the same, and letters to your
politicians and other government officials,
complaining about quackery and cult religion being sold
as a cure for alcoholism and drug addiction.
By the way, how's the weather in Edmunton, Alberta, Canada? I recognized
your ISP — telus.net — because of previous contacts with people who
use the same ISP.
Have a good day.
== Orange
Just wondering if your site has ever gotten a letter from the "head honchos" at "AAWS" in New York City. Or are they too busy trying to "not promote" AA, by re-writing the literature that shows how AA can be "subliminally promoted" at Hospitals, Courts, jails, DUI Programs, and to every coercing authority imagineable? Besides the clueless, who write about how something in your site is "wrong" (in spite of the meticulous research!), are you hearing from any "authoritative" opposition sources? John McC., M-RAS, NACAC-I
Hi again John,
No, I've never gotten anything that was identified as "authoritative".
Apparently they consider me an "outside issue", and are trying
hard to ignore me.
The closest I've ever gotten is just people who work at treatment
centers, and "counselors" who have master's degrees in
social work, complaining that they don't like my writings.
Oh well, have a good day anyway.
== Orange
Hi, Thank you for your page on AA. Your page has taken away the mystique and in that, taken away its power that for me was based in fear. Turning away from AA was like turning away from God. I have been a fringe member for about 4 years now. I never have been able to become a true believer. I faulted myself for not being able to give myself over to this program. I wasn't sure if it was my better sense acting.
The clincher was the study results by Vaillant that showed only a 5% recovery rate (or effectively 0%). Although I had read this on your site a couple of years ago, it did not all come together for me until recently. I was really trying to move ahead in AA since I was not experiencing everything that I had been offered and started to read more. I was surprised to find a statement in Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions, "...every AA must hit bottom first" (p. 24). This program largely does not work, by Bill Wilson's own admission, until a person hits bottom. It's not often presented that way. This lines up nicely with the fact that as many people get sober with AA as do without it; it appears the same amount are hitting bottom in AA as those outside of AA. So, I am feeling a lot less worried about AA and have a good sense of clarity now. When I rejected any portion of it in the past, I always had to wrestle with the idea that somehow, I was just to blame for a bad attitude.
Thanks again,
Hi TM,
Thanks for the letter and the thanks, and I'm glad to hear that you are
doing well. Welcome to freedom.
I've been thinking about that "hitting bottom" line for a while now,
and I now reject it as yet another mistaken A.A. idea.
All that "hitting bottom" really means is that something bad happens,
something worse than whatever had happened before, and someone finally decides
to quit drinking, so that those bad alcohol-induced incidents won't happen
any more. Then, the worst bad thing that ever happened is called "the bottom".
I think it is just human nature to continue to drink as long as it
is fun, and to quit it when it becomes a painful nightmare.
So however miserable somebody got at the end, that is called
"hitting bottom".
Then they start grading bottoms, like "high-bottom drunk", and "low-bottom
drunk". Which just means that some people got into worse suffering
than others.
I reject the idea that you must "hit bottom" before you can quit drinking.
I think it's simply a truism that people don't quit drinking until
it become more pain than fun.
And unfortunately, the rabid A.A. enforcers take the "hitting bottom"
concept a step further, and deliberately
make people "hit bottom", by doing
things to increase their suffering, in hopes that the victims will
then join A.A. and quit drinking. Abuses that I've heard of include
calling the cops to get somebody busted, and
telling an alcoholic's boss to fire him
so that the alcoholic will "hit bottom",
and
telling a wife to divorce her alcoholic husband
so that he will get really depressed and "hit bottom".
Obviously, "helping alcoholics to hit bottom" can easily turn into
sadistic mistreatment of alcoholics. And the creeps who enjoy causing
trouble for alcoholics can even tell themselves that they are
doing it for the alcoholics' own good.
I think that the whole "hitting bottom" idea is another mistake
that needs to be discarded.
Have a good day.
== Orange
Hi Orange, I originally had a few bad gambling experiences but was told by professional counselors and doctors to go to AA since I lived in a small town and there was no GA. I had no drinking problem or drug problem but went to try and help with my gambling addiction. Not only did this not help me, but my gambling addiction got way worse because gambling was totally accepted at AA. AA members acted like I was an idiot when I said I was only a compulsive gambler. I finally started saying I was an alcoholic so I could fit in. I really became an Alcoholic due to going so much and then trying the things real alcoholics said they did to become an alcoholic. Later I got into hard drugs and started stealing. I at this point been going in and out of AA for over 5 years. I quit going for almost a year and I noticed my life was getting back on track until I got a call from a prior sponsor who told me I should go back to AA. I ended up meeting a girl at AA who went back out and I decided to also. This basically turned my life to the point of where I lost my job, spent more money than I could pay back so my rebuilt credit went back to bad credit, then got into criminal trouble. She would only stay with me if I went back to AA. We broke up after I refused to go to AA anymore. She then filed a harassment order against me and started going back to AA only a couple of months after we broke up when she had not been going for over a year. I started to go back again after the breakup and she threatened to go to the Judge and call the cops to get me arrested. AA people told me she couldn't do that but my lawyer said she could. Certain AA members said I was being selfish being there and should only go to the meetings she was not at. I then got so upset I started drinking more than ever before and quit going to AA meetings all together. I now only go to NA meetings. I feel if I had not gone back to AA a year ago I would be in a better place now. I live in too much guilt even having one drink due to AA and that joining the golf club would reap more benefits for my well being at this point. At this point because my average day is very miserable compared to even before I ever even went to AA the very first time. — Jason
Hello Jason,
Thank you for a moving letter. I'm sorry to hear about all of your suffering.
Again, your story shows that
A.A. and the 12 Steps are not good treatment for everything under the sun.
In fact, they are rather poisonous snake oil.
I guess that you live in an area where you can't get to a SMART meeting.
But you might still enjoy some online meetings. May I suggest any of
the following? Their flavors will vary; pick what you like.
Have a good day.
== Orange
Hey Orange! Just went on to look up some info on AA archives and stumbled on your raves. You sound pretty peeved and down on AA. Which is fine. My question is what, besides reams of criticism, are you bringing to the table regarding a huge booze/drug problem? AA, cult or no cult, with all it's success, is only scraping the surface. You're obviously motivated and you MUST have reached the bottom of the dirt by now. We had a fair idea we'd get sprung eventually and you've got us. Yes we are a cult of narcissistic self will run riot ego maniacs with inferiority complexes. Resentful rat bags. I'm just glad some of us are sober. How much trouble would a few million of us be running around drunk? Terrorism! You may have missed those bits where we admit that we're not saints, Orange. In fact Bill called us a collection of failures. Other big news; Bill's dead. So is Dr Bob. Time to stop kicking the corpses. What they left is a functioning, if limited, solution to the scourge of alcoholism. Thousands of us (alcoholics) die everyday or live in pain and misery and cause pain and misery to everyone we come in contact with. Any solution which can alleviate that, cult or no cult, has my blessing. The proof is in the pudding brother. You know perfectly what we're doing wrong so you're the perfect one to get out there and do it right. All hands on deck Put it on the table brother, you're needed brother! Andy Sydney
Hello Andy,
Disregarding your sarcasm, there is plenty of information on the web site
about how to successfully quit drinking and stay sober.
Here is a list.
Yes, Bill and Bob are dead. But the evil that they have done lives on.
I am still constantly receiving letters from people who have been
harmed by Bill's hoax.
Try these two that I just answered:
TM and
Jason.
Have a good day.
== Orange
Please link to your site!
Okay, John,
Got it. It's good to see alternatives to 12-Step coercion.
Have a good day now.
== Orange
Hey Mr./Ms. Orange, I'm am totally sincere when I state to you that I'm quite sorry to see your still as sick and as obsessed as you were when I last wrote you a few years back. I've never experienced or ran into anyone who is so obsessed with wasting their time and dwelling on the negative. I still cannot understand why any God of anyone's understanding could punish someone so severely? You probably could find, and deal with it if you were to take even a fraction of the time dealing with your own inventory as you do with A.A.'s. All you have to really do is be "willing to believe" and take your own inventories. I know you profess "to be happy and spend your days on the beach." Your writings that to contradict that lie. Your as sad as an example of a life as I think one could encounter. Everything I have read that you have wrote on your site is truly delusional and distorted by your saprogenic mind. You believe most of it to be fact. I have read many of the books you use partial quotes from. I must admit you are great at distortion and total dis-orientation. Funny how one can see only the distant negative in everything about one organization. I loved it when you quoted "Rarely have we seen a person fail who has thoroughly followed our path" as something to mislead others. Reckon your one of the many who did not heed this truth. Examples to your fantasies are available in every A.A. meeting that meets on a regular basis. It is shared about by sincere and recovering people who have truly found a way of living that is truly better then they have ever experienced. Like myself, that have tried the non-thorough and half-measure style of A.A. as described in Chapter 5 of the "Big Book." Rich and poor, all colors, all denominations, all without a need to lie to others or themselves. I hope you can find your own way to learn how to be honest with yourself since you are so close-minded to any proven method. You could have what millions of others have so freely received. I am forced by your rants, raves and rages to believe that you are one of the rare individuals who are born with the character defect of being constitutionally incapable of being honest with yourself. That is where honesty starts. It does not appear that you will ever find this truth. I have copied the below from you site with hope you just might recognize how sick you are. It is typical of your replies. Everything this fellow has written is wrong as is everything about A.A. Everything, Everything, Everything. If you were the intellectual you profess to be, you would without fail recognize that right or wrong is never absolute. FYI, A.A has never published anything about a "success rate" since the first three groups in Akron, Cleveland and NewYork. It is impossible to take any survey that accurately states the success or non-success rate of any addiction or recovery. I'll let you try to figure-out why. My guess is you will give a totally distorted answer that will, in fact, be humanly impossible. I hope you find a Power Greater then yourself that can restore you to sanity. If you do, you days will be filled with all the happiness you deny yourself. The one thing that your writings relay is that you are truly powerless over life. Unfortunatly your negative obsession with A.A. is at the top of the list. Thus your site is one of the best attractions A.A. can have for future members seeking a solution. Hope you have a great day by finding that Power. Your life does not have to be based on hate. You cannot do it alone. You don't have to feel what you do. Sincerely and with prayer for your change, Mike P. PS I gotta believe Bill Wilson feels great sorrow for your predicament. I know he's a praying for you.
[Then he quoted the entire letter from Jeremy on Tue, August 1, 2006, and my answer, here.] — Your distorted perception and delusion is very evident it this statement. With all my heart and soul I sincerely wish I could help you. It appears obvious that your life is as close to totally wasted as a life could be. Again, there is hope for you if you do find that "Power Greater then Yourself." That power would be a "God of your understanding. "Oh well, have a good day anyway." — I gotta believe that for a hateful guy like yourself, this statement is totally hypocritical. Mr./Ms. Orange, if you ever do want to have a joyous, happy and free life, please do not hesitate to contact me. If you have the ability to be Honest with yourself, open-minded and willing, I can, without doubt, help you to do so.
Hello Mike,
Good morning to you too. I notice that you still have avoided speaking
about any of the important stuff, like the actual A.A. recovery rate,
or the A.A. suicide rate. You just waved your hands in the air and
cried that "it's all wrong", and then declared that I must be insane
and unspiritual.
While you are being such a true believer and insisting that I'm
wrong about everything, why don't you enlighten us with just three
bits of Truth:
(HINT: the answers are here.
(Check out a member of the A.A. Board of Trustees for that:
Prof. Dr. George E. Vaillant,
here.)
And of course A.A. has published Bill Wilson's statements about
the A.A. success rate, many times over, blatant lies like:
Wherever or whatever Bill Wilson is at this point, I doubt that he is
praying for me. He is far more likely to be worrying
about his own fate for lying to sick people,
and deceiving people in the name of God.
Oh well, have a good day anyway. I'm going to. It's Sunday morning,
the Grateful Dead are on the radio, the sun is shining,
and I have bread to take to my little feathered friends whom you think
I don't enjoy.
== Orange
Last updated 21 November 2014. |
