Date: Sat, September 20, 2008 6:02 pm     (answered 5 Oct.)
From: JMG
Subject: Thank you...

You are doing such a great service in keeping AAers sober. Thank you so much.

And AA is also grateful in keeping you sober. After all, it's primary purpose is to carry its message to the alcoholic who still suffers.

JMG

Hi JMG,

Thanks for the note, but I'm not sure that I understand what you are saying. A.A. is not keeping me sober, so I don't know why it would be grateful about it.

Perhaps you meant it in a generic sense, that A.A. is grateful in keeping other people sober. --Which it unfortunately doesn't actually do.

And A.A.'s real primary purpose seems to be proselytizing and recruiting for a cult religion.

And you know, I don't claim to be keeping anybody sober, other than myself. I do not claim the sobriety of my readers. If they are sober, it is because they choose to be, by using their own intelligence and will power. I don't really have the power to get'em sober, or get'em drunk.

Oh well, have a good day anyway.

== Orange

*             orange@orange-papers.info        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**  Drinking makes such fools of people, and people are such
**  fools to begin with, that it's compounding a felony.
**          Robert Benchley (1889 - 1945)

Date: Sat, October 4, 2008 9:26 am     (answered 5 Oct.)
From: "jonathan n."
Subject: Thank you so much — this site changed my life.

Dear Orange,

I always loved alcohol. Even as a kid, I remember the smells of coconut rum and fresh beer. I started drinking early but responsibly. I discovered Scientology in my early 20's and they frowned on my drinking so I stopped for a few years. I left Scientology after discovering their manipulative ways and after I accidentally read their secret materials. I fell in love with drinking again. This time, however, I seemed to be trying to catch up on the lost years of not drinking in Scientology. I pretty soon was drinking enormous amounts of alcohol and it effected my physical and mental health as well as my social life. After 2 years of drinking relentlessly, a friend refered me to AA. I actually wanted to stop or at least moderate my drinking.

I should have known the minute I walked into the room. The format was different but the euphoric feeling of letting go and "sharing" was very similar to episodes I experienced in Scientology. Red lights and sirens in my mind screaming "MIND CONTROL" should have come on but they didn't. I was in AA for almost a year. The manipulation is subtle and all encompassing. I lost friends, distanced myself from family members who drank (almost everyone in my family drinks) and even restricted my social life to that of being at work and that of the rooms. I became desperately unhappy but didn't want to see my doctor as my Higher Power was now my doctor and besides, my doctor might perscribe antidepressants — a no no in many AA or NA groups.

I was so happy (at first shocked) to stumble across your website. It opened my eyes. The Truman Show was over! I wasn't powerless. I was the prisoner to alcohol but I failed to notice I held the key to my cell. I did a great deal of introspection and yo-yoing to and fro from the rooms. Eventually I let go. I haven't looked back! Some people in the rooms have refused to accept my absence (I did a lot of work for AA — setting up rooms, literature etc) & continue to call me, call by my house unannounced and even question some of my friends. I have warned AA that they are harrassing me but I'm told "each group is independant" so I have to inform every group in my city and area to leave me alone.

I have discovered that my love of alcohol is genetic. I have joined a gym and now do extreme sports like whiteriver rafting and skydiving. Doing these things gives me a thrill and works on my brain chemistry, giving me feelings of elation, satisfaction — substituting my need to drink vast amounts of alcohol. I still drink, sometimes more than I should, but I have discovered that it is not alcohol I crave but excitement, a thrill, a change in perception and a naughty need to push the limits. I have lost weight, got a proper 6-pack (not the canned kind) and am incredibly happy for the first time in years — almost a year after leaving AA.

I just want people to know that there are some scary similarities to the techniques Scientology uses and that of AA. Principly, Scientology relies on confessions (called auditing). In AA, its called 5th stepping (admiting to another). The effects at the time of confessionals can be euphoric but the sting in the tail is that once you have opened yourself up to someone so closely, you are vunerable and open to blackmail, coersion and deception. Sitting in boring meeting can produce a mind numbing effect — and with all those AA slogans bandied about — a mild form of hypnotism occurs. There is no question about it: AA is a cult. They might not take all your money, but they'll get your time, your social life and above all, your mind.

Thomas.

Hi Thomas,

Thank you very much for the letter. It's great. And thank you for the compliments.

I've been observing for some time now that there are disturbing similarities between Scientology and Alcoholics Anonymous, and your experiences confirm that.

I also believe that my alcoholism is genetic. My father had it before me, and his mother before him... And I don't know where it came from before that.

Fortunately, there is one very simple escape for us — just don't drink alcohol.

Have a good day, and a good life.

== Orange

*             orange@orange-papers.info        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *

**   Imagine a church so dangerous, you must sign a release
**   form before you can receive its "spiritual assistance."
**   This assistance might involve holding you against your
**   will for an indefinite period, isolating you from
**   friends and family, and denying you access to
**   appropriate medical care. You will of course be billed
**   for this treatment — assuming you survive it. If not,
**   the release form absolves your caretakers of all
**   responsibility for your suffering and death.
**
**   Welcome to the Church of Scientology.
**
**                 ==Dr. Dave Touretzky

Date: Fri, October 17, 2008 7:23 am     (answered 30 Oct.)
From: lizzy l.
Subject: The Cult

Dear A. Orange,

Thank-you so much for your research on AA. I was really relieved to discover that I am not the only person in the world that feels AA is a cult religion. I am still continuing to read the letters and your research regarding AA.

I am married to an AA fanatic and we are having problems directly related to AA. The problems range from my husband spending too much time at meetings, to his feelings of superiority and his association with complete weirdos in "the program."

My question is, have you heard from many wives or husbands with the same issues? Maybe there should be a support group for people in my situation and I'm not talking about Al-Anon.

Another question is, have any AA meetings been abolished anywhere in the world? Do you think the truth about AA will ever come out universally? Will you ever put your research in print? I would loveeeeee to put it on my coffee table.

Enough questions, thanks again.....I'll continue reading and I'm happy to discover I'm not a freakin nut!

Liz L. in Maryland

Hello Liz,

Thanks for the letter and the compliments.

Unfortunately, your problem is quite common. I've heard the same story many times. I'm reminded of a SMART meeting that I was at where two women came in and explained that they were not alcoholics — their husbands were — but was it okay for them to stay anyway?

We said, "Sure, no problem."

Then they told their stories. They could tolerate their husbands' drinking. It wasn't pleasant, but the situation was tolerable. But when the husbands quit drinking and joined Alcoholics Anonymous and turned into obsessive true believers in A.A. — guys whose whole lives were A.A. — the women had to divorce them. Their A.A. behavior was just too much.

The founder of A.A., Bill Wilson himself, actually bragged about this in one of his books:

After the husband joins A.A., the wife may become discontented, even highly resentful that Alcoholics Anonymous has done the very thing that all her years of devotion had failed to do. Her husband may become so wrapped up in A.A. and his new friends that he is inconsiderately away from home more than when he drank. Seeing her unhappiness, he recommends A.A.'s Twelve Steps and tries to teach her how to live.
Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions, William G. Wilson, page 118.

== Orange

*             orange@orange-papers.info        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**  Life is like box of chocolates: one bad cliché after another.

Date: Mon, October 20, 2008 11:03 pm     (answered 30 Oct.)
From: Brian T.
Subject: The Funny Spirituality of Bill Wilson and A.A.

Well if you did your homework about the Big Book of Alcoholics Anonymous you would have read the quote "contempt prior to investigation" which is what you did in this entire article.

It's really sad that this is your perspective and I am sorry you feel this way. I suppose I would feel angry as well if I looked at what he wrote in the aspect you painted.

You wrote "In the "Big Book", Alcoholics Anonymous, in the chapter "The Family Afterward", on page 135 (3rd and 4th editions), we read"....

Just so you know... the first 164 pages have never changed unless it refers the statistics or the forwards. "The Family Afterward" is on the same page in any edition not just the 3rd and 4th. This also means that all the dangers of smoking were not even known in 1939. This is just one point, and trust me there is a much bigger picture here that you completely missed.

Thanks.
Sincerely,
A sober member of Alcoholics Anonymous

Hello Brian,

You overlook the simple truth that much was known about the harmful effects of tobacco back in 1939.

It's true that the Surgeon General had not gone on television yet, and declared that cigarette smoking caused lung cancer, but much was known about the bad health effects of tobacco, and way before 1939. Heck, even Mark Twain wrote many jokes about how his doctor ordered him to quit smoking.

Bill Wilson's wife Lois knew about the bad side of tobacco, so she was nagging Bill to quit smoking himself to death, as Bill described in that Big Book story.

Besides all of that, you are overlooking the most important source of information of all: God. (That's the "much bigger picture here that you completely missed".) God knew about the health damage from tobacco. God already knew about what tobacco does to people. God didn't have to wait for the U.S. Surgeon General to tell Him about tobacco.

Bill Wilson often bragged about how years of practicing the 12 Steps put the oldtimers in "conscious contact with God". And of course Bill implied that he was one of those oh-so-spiritual people.

That is A.A. Step 11:

11. Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God as we understood Him, praying only for knowledge of His will for us and the power to carry that out.

== Orange

*             orange@orange-papers.info        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *

**  As an example to others, and not that I care for moderation myself,
**  it has always been my rule never to smoke when asleep, and never to
**  refrain from smoking when awake.
**    == Mark Twain, 70th birthday speech


**  Giving up smoking is the easiest thing in the world. I know because
**  I've done it thousands of times.
**    ==  Mark Twain 

**  ...when they used to tell me I would shorten my life ten years by smoking,
**  they little knew the devotee they were wasting their puerile word upon
**  — they little knew how trivial and valueless I would regard a decade
**  that had no smoking in it!
**  ==  Mark Twain, in a letter to Joseph Twichell, 19 Dec 1870

**  [Mark Twain, when he was sick:]  So I can stand but little fatigue
**  and am not downstairs much. I was warned to stop smoking, which I
**  did, for two or three days, but it 'was too lonesome, and I have
**  resumed — in a modified way — 4 smokes a day instead of 40. This
**  will have a good effect. On the bank balance.
**    ==  Mark Twain, MEMORIES OF MARK TWAIN IN BERMUDA, CHAPTER XIII, June 1909.

From: "John C."
Subject: interesting but boring
Date: Tue, October 21, 2008 4:51 pm     (answered 30 Oct.)

What did your mother do to you? or was it your father?

Hi John,

My parents taught me to respect the truth, and to be rigorously truthful. So that kind of rules out Alcoholics Anonymous, now doesn't it?

Oh well, have a good day anyway.

== Orange

*             orange@orange-papers.info        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**  The greatest of mankind's criminals are those who delude themselves
**  into thinking they have done 'the right thing.'
**     ==  Rayna Butler

Date: Thu, October 23, 2008 5:37 pm     (answered 30 Oct.)
From: "(name withheld)"
Subject: hi.

ta, very much for your site. i stumbled across it last year, after desperately trying to find an alternative to aa. when i found your site, i had already stopped going to aa, knowing that it was damaging, keeping me stuck and very unhappy. i dont know about anyone else, but after spending nearly eight years of my life in there, with all these thoughts and questions i had about aa, which people in meetings, wouldn't and couldn't answer sensibly, the relief i felt, after i started reading was enormous. because at that time the fear and paranoia i had, especially about my decision to leave aa, was overwhelming.

please believe me, your site was a great comfort to me. i remember thinking at last, an actual voice of reason. all the things i had been trying to articulate myself, but had been told by my fellow members for years that i was rebellious, resistant, not grateful enough, my ongoing depression, which i may add people were sympathetic to at first, but over the years, and this is standard aa, that empathy runs out, and to be told countless times when i was on my knees that it was because i had not fully let god into my heart, i had not dealt with my past, more inventory, etc. i am sure you get the drift.

the relief i now feel to actually not go to meetings anymore is wonderful. i shudder at the thought of ever stepping through those so called magical doors again. what was also good at the time, was my friend, another aa member was also feeling the same, and had done the same as myself. he also read your site, and would say lol, i have been saying that for years.

i feel like touching on so much that you have said about aa. but your ultimate message is yes, aa is dangerous. you are absolutely right, yes we are dealing with people, who have suffered many terrible kinds of abuse, mental disorders, acts of violence, rape, incest, murder and as you say, this aa, is not a place for quack, pap, nonsense, led by people who are absolutely in no way qualified or have any business to be even thinking about trying to be dealing with such complex, life and death matters. its downright dangerous and fills me with anger that they go on and on, through the years, unquestioned and unexamined. if it was any other medical condition, it would have been shut down years ago. its like a fake doctor, sitting in some practise, with a forged medical licence. it really should be investigated. i have seen first hand and know many people, including myself, who while very vulnreable, have literally placed our lives in the hand of these people, and the twelve steps, to not only become more sicker, drink more, end up in mental institutions, with terrible breakdowns and suicides, because of what aa promates as "good for your so-called health".

i had noticed many years ago, that a lot of people, who were, so-called long term members, were all still struggling, depressed or wearing the mask of aas happy, contented and sober badge, but were really still in terrible amounts of pain. i thought many times, no one really seems to get better in here, and the contradiction of well if you were one of the contented sober folks, then they had not really been true alcoholics in the first place. there is such a lack of anything other than aa. its promoted everywhere and unfortunately has become synomous with sobriety. i live in scotland, so it was very interesting to read the way aa has infiltrated american society, from your court and prison systems, doctors, hospitals and rehabs. it has not taken root as much as that in britain, and i hope it never does. i forgot to mention churches as well.

your site is fantastic. its well written and researched, refreshing and very funny. your sense of humour had me laughing out loud. the chapters on deprograming your mind and the lizard brain monster are clear and insightful. just good, no nonsense, mumbo jumbo. but what i have found most interesting is your letters page. it just reinforces to me, from the letters you get from people still in aa, that it does not work, does not make any sense, now i am away from meetings that is becoming clearer by the day.

thanks again.

thanks for reinforcing that you can be happy without aa and that your site will go on and on helping the many confused and unhappy people in aa, who go around asking and raising these questions and please believe i know many, when they read your site, they will also realise that they are not insane, lowlife human beings, who will have to endure a life squeezed out of them by aa.

ta. its great. keep up the good work.

please omit my name etc.

Hello (name omitted),

Thanks for the letter and all of the compliments. I'm really happy to hear that you have benefitted in some way from my web site.

And you have a good day, and a good life.

== Orange

*             orange@orange-papers.info        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**  If stupidity got us into this mess, why can't it get us out?

And here's another pair of gosling pictures for you:
May 20, 2008: Still in the park; it's now day three.

This is the next day from the previous pictures. Ka'ge is zonked out, taking a nap, and one of his friends is sitting watching the goslings while the goslings work on a slice of whole wheat bread.

Here, the goslings are giving me funny looks while I take pictures of them.

[The story of the goslings continues here.]

Date: Wed, October 15, 2008 4:52 pm     (answered 30 Oct.)
From: Brave Heart- Alba
Subject: Greetings from Scotland

Hello Orange............

AA in Scotland is as Nutty & dis-functional as it is in the USA & elsewhere. Cults the World Over have 2 things in Common......... FEAR & CONTROL (as do World Goverments), but sticking to the AA Cult, most Women & Men come to AA as damaged goods, and with many Human Problems. i say Human Problems because i am not that very differant to the rest of the Human Race, when i as an Individual stopped drinking, i was young when i stopped drinking, and have been sober now over 25years ODAAT, and i DONT have a "ISM" problem, I NEVER had & NEVER will.

Once i stopped taking the drink, i knew i had other Human Problems, and as the years have gone by, i have just had to deal with my Human Problems, just like the Rest of The Human Race, But i REFUSE to bow to the AA Cult & those who would "try" & Control me & put the AA FEAR into my Life.

i dont buy this A.A.'s "higher powers" , i do Believe in God, i believe i was given Free Will , and i will make my own choices & mistakes etc as a Human being, its called learning and growing up, and having fun, and if i cant do some one a good turn, dont do them a bad turn.

I dont do DEAD Americans — Bill Wilson or Dr. Bob Smith. i have met in AA and outside of AA (yes, there is a BIG WORLD outside of AA) many who are Brain DEAD, and the AA Cult takes over that type of individual who is frightened to think or act or feel for themselves.

They have a "LIVE & Let Live Notice" in many AA meetings, i think this ONE is definitely a Joke ............ Dont try to be an Individual in AA or the Cult will come for yous. Be Your OWN Man or Woman in This Life, Life is to short for BILL Wilson to be doing my thinking for me from Beyond the Grave.........

Take care One & All......
Brave Heart- Alba-(Gaelic for Scotland)

Hi Brave Heart,

Thanks for the letter. I couldn't agree more.

It's good to hear from Scotland again. Coincidentally, that's the second letter from Scotland that came in very recently. The first one is here.

Have a good day and a good life.

== Orange

*             orange@orange-papers.info        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**  	SIX MORE DAYS UNTIL WE ELECT A BETTER GOVERNMENT!

Date: Wed, October 22, 2008 1:15 pm     (answered 30 Oct.)
From: Kebmo
Subject: (no subject)

I got sober in AA

Hi Kebmo,

I got sober in the streets and in a shelter for homeless men. So should we declare that the streets and homeless shelters are great programs for sobriety? Shouldn't we give all credit for sobriety to the streets?

That's the problem with Confusion of Correlation and Causation. Just because somebody got sober in a certain place does not mean that he got sober because of that place.

And just because somebody got sober in or near some A.A. meetings does not mean that he got sober because of those A.A. meetings.

The way to figure out whether people quit drinking because of a certain thing or program is to do good, medically-valid, carefully-controlled studies. Such studies have been done to test whether Alcoholics Anonymous works to make people quit drinkings, and A.A. flunked the test every time. It didn't work. Look here.

Have a good day.

== Orange

*             orange@orange-papers.info        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**  The best proof intelligent life in space exists is that
**   they have never tried to contact us.

Date: Mon, October 20, 2008 5:54 am     (answered 30 Oct.)
From: "Lucius F."
Subject:

you're wrong. the folks who do not recover do not "thoroughly follow" the path, a process understood through experience only. You are inside the last paradigm forming judgements. the earth is not flat.
lucius

Hello Lucius,

Sorry, but you are just repeating a standard A.A. word game. The "thoroughly follow our path" phrase is just an excuse to cover up total failure. A.A. always shoves the blame for failure back onto the alcoholics by claiming that they didn't "work the program right" or "thoroughly follow our path".

But it's a circular self-referential definition, which is very bad logic. If someone quits drinking, then the other A.A. members declare that he DID "thoroughly follow our path", and if someone does not quit drinking, then the A.A. members declare that he DID NOT "thoroughly follow our path".

So of course it appears that 100% of those who did "thoroughly follow our path" quit drinking.
And 100% of those who quit drinking did "thoroughly follow our path".

But that is still a meaningless word game. There is no evidence that "thoroughly following our path" actually makes alcoholics quit drinking.

I can use the same word game to proclaim that I have a never-fails diet plan:

1. Instead of eating, dance around in a ballerina's tutu.
2. When you get really hungry, go jogging and then eat a celery stick.
3. Pray to the Great God Lard-Ass to have Him remove your excess pounds and your desire to eat.

== Orange

*             orange@orange-papers.info        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
** "The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the
**  same level of thinking we were at when we created them."
**     ==   Albert Einstein (1879-1955)

From: "Mary H"
Subject: masterful
Date: Mon, October 20, 2008 7:11 pm     (answered 30 Oct.)

Hi Orange,

Your website is amazing!

I had a friend from Nigeria, tell me about it, she's a nurse and quit drinking on her own here in San Jose. She told me AA was harmful and at first I could not believe her until I read your site.

She told me about your site.
Kudos for an amazing job you have done.

have you ever read the site that belongs to the Hypoglycemia Assoc of Australia??
They have a lot of Articles on their site that explain the causes (and cures for) addiction.

AA is voo doo!
They also suppress Bill W's interest in B3!

Keep up the great work
Yours,
Mary
San Jose, Calif

Date: Mon, October 20, 2008 7:14 pm
From: "Mary H"
Subject: Re: masterful

I always wondered why my local home group stayed the same.
the same members, mostly 70+ years old, with lots of sobriety.
seemed that no one new got sober.
younger people all struggling,
going in and out, in and out, of sobriety and feeling horrible about it.

Hello Mary,

Thanks for the letters and the compliments and the observations.
"...no one new got sober". That pretty much says it all, doesn't it?

Oh well, have a good day anyway.

By the way, The Hypoglycemic Health Association of Australia website looks very interesting. Thanks for that link. I'm just beginning to read the web site, but I like their approach already:

"Clinical nutrition is an evidence-based medical science, supported by untold numbers of clinical studies and trials." ...

"It is recognised that psychological problems such as anxiety, stresses of life, depression, unhappy personal relationships, uncontrollable anger and frustration may weaken the immune system and thus cause the many physical ailments. Thus this web site has a folder offering several articles on practical self-help PSYCHOTHERAPY which will help people to overcome these problem, once they have repaired the original metabolic disorder. This is particularly useful with such diseases as Anxiety, Aggressive Behaviour, Chronic Fatigue Syndrome, Alcoholism and Drug Addiction, Chronic Depression, which are usually influenced by both nutritional and psychological (attitudinal) factors.
The psychotherapy folder starts with treatment of a negative self-image, which is seen as the hub of personality disorders."

== Orange

*             orange@orange-papers.info        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**  Gandhi: "Whenever I despair, I remember that the way of truth
**  and love has always won. There may be tyrants and murderers,
**  and for a time, they may seem invincible, but in the end, they
**  always fail. Think of it: always."

Date: Tue, October 14, 2008 10:34 am     (answered 30 Oct.)
From: Miklos J R.
Subject: Greeting from Denmark

Hi Orange Papers

Thank you for adding me to your friends list and sorry but my english is not so good. Oh, and right now it is difficult for me to believe, that I'm writing to the man who made the website Orange-papers.org .

What a fabulous job you have done. Must have taking you a long time of your life and you must had help a lot of people. Thank you.

I also read and saw some of the things James G and Ken Ragge had made.

I'm living in the second largest city in Denmark called Aarhus. I was in the Xa fellowship for a littel more than 10 years.

I been reading Orange-papers for about 5 years and help me a lot to get my life and myself back. I have read some of the deprogramming part.

It takes some time for me to read the papers because my english isn't so good. As you might know Denmark is a part of scandinavian and about 2 weeks ago I found a Xa citical website from Sweden www.AA-kritik.info and I wrote the guy and he wrote me back and he asked me if I knew any critical Xa website here in Scandinavian, but I don't. Swedish, Norwegian and Danish language reminds about each other. It took me a longe time to find any critical Xa website at all. So Thank you again and please let me know if there anything I can do.

Greeting
Miklos

Hello Miklos,

Thank you for the letter. It's very flattering. I'm happy to hear that the web site helped you.

I also like the things that James G and Ken Ragge have done.

And you know, I really am just a regular guy, so writing to me isn't quite the same thing as writing to the king.

And don't feel bad about your English not being great — my Danish is absolutely terrible — non-existant in fact.

Have a good day.

== Orange

*             orange@orange-papers.info        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**  "In Paris they simply stared when I spoke to them in French;
**  I never did succeed in making those idiots understand their
**  language."
**     == Mark Twain

Congratulations to President-Elect Barack H. Obama.

Yes we can, Yes we did.

Now there is even more work to be done.

Date: Wed, October 22, 2008 10:15 pm     (answered 7 Nov.)
From: torchtip
Subject:

??? You bring out a lot of good points in your critique of AA/treatment. It seems that your personal experience may have been worse than some people's right from the start (ie: the counselor at your treatment facility. Sounds like a real nutball!) I think that AA does offer some help, as you mention yourself. It also provides a cover for some real predators. An upfront warning about the downside is a good idea for "newcomers" but I have the feeling that many in AA are inclined to fit right in to the atmosphere that you describe. I am really against the courts ordering people to attend meetings as they do. Truthfully though, many attending a few meetings might benefit from seeing what goes on at meetings. It might help them decide to quit drinking in order to avoid turning into the people they see there!

I stay involved in AA to a slight degree just to go and get things off my chest and to refute some of the more outrageous stuff.

For the rest I think it gives some a sense of belonging that they might not get anywhere else. And of course as you point out it gives others a platform to prey on the troubled. Maybe focusing more on the alternative groups that you mention might be helpful. Good luck with your sobriety!

Hi Torchtip,

You sound like another member of the "Newcomer Rescue League". That is a mythical secret society of sane people who go to A.A. meetings to rescue the occasional newcomer from the nut-case sponsors.

Yes, I know about that sense of belonging, and that sense of comradery, and the enthusiasm and esprit de corps that you can sometimes find at an A.A. or N.A. meeting. I've often felt like that could have been a very good thing, and a very powerful thing. It really is a shame that there is so much toxic stuff that comes along with it — stuff that makes alcoholics relapse or even commit suicide.

At times I've wondered if it might be possible to put together a benign sobriety cult that would help people more than it hurt them. Unfortunately, the answer seems to be "No." The cultishness itself becomes the problem.

Date: Wed, October 22, 2008 10:30 pm     (answered 7 Nov.)
From: torchtip
Subject: An AA joke.

Have you heard about the 90 year old women that's been going to the meetings and picking up on the younger guys? They say she may not be sober but she sure is dry!

Oh, that is bad...

Date: Thu, October 23, 2008 12:42 pm     (answered 7 Nov.)
From: torchtip
Subject: Bill W's deathbed request for booze

I had read a news article about Bill W. asking for booze on his deathbed and getting pissed at the nurses when they refused. Have you seen that or referenced it here in your site?

Yes. That comes from Susan Cheever's biography of Bill Wilson, "My Name is Bill". (It is described in the bibliography, here.)

Susan Cheever is one of those people who can be trusted to not let the cat out of the bag, so she was allowed into the locked and sealed A.A. historical archives, and was able to read the real historical documents, like the log-book of the male nurse who tended Bill Wilson on his deathbed. It describes how Bill Wilson threatened to punch the nurse out when he refused to supply Bill with whiskey.

I wrote about that before, and printed a quotation in a previous letter, here.

In spite of the fact that Susan Cheever revealed two juicy tidbits about Bill Wilson — Bill's sexual predations and his deathbed demands for whiskey — her book is otherwise a white-wash and a cover-up, and another fawning glorification of Bill Wilson. Cheever did such a good job of it that her reward was that she was then elected to Board of Directors of the National Council on Alcoholism and Drug Dependency — the NCADD — the A.A. front group that was founded by "Mrs." Marty Mann to promote Alcoholics Anonymous.

Oh well, have a good day anyway.

== Orange

*             orange@orange-papers.info        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**  Peace on Earth would mean the end of civilization as we know it.
**    ==  Joseph Heller

Date: Mon, October 20, 2008 5:02 pm     (answered 7 Nov.)
From: "Rob S."
Subject: surrender

Obviously you can not understand the concept of surrender in order to comprehend the significance you have to experience both alcoholism and surrender. You my friend have not experieced surrender. I'd also like for you to show me a cult, or any other organization that limits the amount of financial contributions it's members can give per year with name attached. Had you hung around long enough you may have surrendered...untill then I wish you well.

Hello Rob,

Actually, I do understand the concept of surrender. I also understand ego loss. I also know that it is possible to be confused about the issue, and to make a false surrender.

Two good questions to ask are, "What is the fruit of this labor?" and "What do you do after the surrender?"

A surrender that leads to foisting ineffective quack medicine on sick people and deceiving them about how well it works is not a good surrender. I cannot say for sure what such a person surrendered his soul to in order to do that, but I know that it wasn't good.

The concept of surrender is often confused in cults, and is often turned into a demand for obedience and conformity.

Baba Ram Dass wrote this about surrender in a relationship with a genuine guru or teacher:

In the spiritual literature, the true surrender is spoken of as the surrender that is no surrender. That is, one opens — through faith and trust — to a method such as a guru only when such faith resonates with truth at the depths of one's being. Then there is a readiness for such opening. If one is still rooted only in intellect or emotion, any act of surrender is but another act of ego and can, based on misjudgment, lead to horrendous consequences. So one cannot choose to surrender to the guru. But when the devotee and the guru have met at the depths of being then such surrender is not actually surrender to another person but, rather, surrender to one's own God-nature.
Miracle of Love: Stories About Neem Karoli Baba, Ram Dass, pages 300-301.

== Orange

*             orange@orange-papers.info        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**  There is no god higher than truth.
**    == Gandhi

Date: Sat, October 18, 2008 10:37 am     (answered 7 Nov.)
From: Sherwood E.
Subject: Good to see you back

Hi Orange,

Good to see up-dates on your site. As I've written in the past, I am over 30 years sober and left AA several years ago to live a sober life without the cult AA.

AA occupied so much of my time as I had gone to AA in my 20's and was convinced that I owed my sobriety and my life, time and energy to AA. I know now how untrue all of that is and am so glad people are being warned about AA. If loved ones of alcoholics really knew the number of court-ordered criminals and sexual predators in those meetings they would not be so quick to send their loved ones there.

And there is also the matter of members being encouraged to leave their partners and go with someone on the program. You are told, it is just easier to go with someone on the program who understands you. All those outside of AA are called normies in a very condescending way.

Keep up your positive contribution to the truth.

Sherwoode

Hi Sherwood,

Thanks for the compliments, and congratulations on your freedom. And thanks for the letter — it's good to get that input about what goes on in there.

And have a good day.

== Orange

*             orange@orange-papers.info        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**  It is better to be alone than in bad company.

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