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Hello Mr/Mrs/Miss A Orange, Gee the AA have really pissed you off have't they! What you seem to miss in all you figures is the human element in all this. The tremendous support and love that fellow alcoholics give each other is utterly invaluable to people in recovery. It's a spritual programme — and it does bring great benefit to many people. I agree that many people don't "get it" but for those that do it is fantastic.
Best wishes
Hi E. C.,
Thanks for the letter.
No, I have not overlooked the human element at all. The social aspect and comradery
are even listed in the web page
"What's Good About A.A.?"
The problem is, a little pleasant clubby brotherhood and groupishness does not outweigh
the increased A.A. death rate
and the terrible failure rate,
and the harm done by A.A. misinformation about alcoholics, alcoholism, and recovery.
And there is no "great benefit to many people". That is
just another of the standard A.A. lies.
Alcoholics who go to A.A. do not quit drinking in any greater numbers than other
alcoholics who don't go to A.A., but
the A.A. people do binge drink far more,
and die in greater numbers.
And what kind of a spiritual program is it that won't even tell the truth
about how well it works?
Oh well, have a good day anyway.
== Orange
Hello Mr. Orange, My name's Shawn B. I've been struggling with AA for the most part of the last 4 and 1/2 years. I had 2 yrs. Then in and out and now I'm at almost 10 months. This is the first time in my life that I've looked into the program this way. When I first went into the program, it was my intention to try to get brainwashed. It never worked. Thank God. I know that addiction is serious. I'm at the begining of a new search for recovery. Thank you for the information and tips. Your site is helping me with confidence that I need to resist the 12 step insanity. SSB...
Hi Shawn,
Thanks for the letter, and thanks for the complements.
Congratulations on hanging in there and getting sober.
I hope that maybe you will find something here that helps you.
I put together a couple of lists of sundry
things that have worked for other people:
here, and
here.
I particularly recommend reading about the
Lizard Brain Addiction Monster.
Understanding how that works has been a life-saver for me.
Good luck, and have a good day.
== Orange
Your work is very interesting and very enlightening. I am been out of treatment for about 1 year with many "slips"... I do go to AA meetings. It is the only thing available here. But when I do go I do not SHARE my slips. They want me to stand up and admit defeat. Give me a break. AA is going to say "you slipped because you do not work the program and you do not have a sponsor. (I was beginning to think that till I found your writings). But no credit for courage to get back on the wagon and try again. Just come and get your 24 hour chip and start over. I am sure glad to find that I am not the only one that thinks AA is cult-like. I said that when I was in rehab. So I was relieved after stumbling to your website. It is evident that you have spent thousand and thousand of hours researching. I tried to find a place I could order your book. There is not one. So you can tell that you're not a man wanting money or recognition. I hope that everyone alcoholic finds your site. My position is that YOU do have choices. If you choose AA and that keeps you sober... Good... But there are many other programs (if you need one) that might keep you sober longer and feel awhole lot better about yourself while doing it. I hope ever judge, doctor, rehab center also finds this information. You really need to publish a book. I am going to have to buy a new printer after printing all your chapters.
Thank you, GOOD GOSH MISS POLLY, I ACTUALLY CAN THINK FOR MYSELF WITHOUT FEELING GUILTY... I HAVE CHOICES... I CAN DO IT MY WAY.
Hi Linda,
Thanks for the letter, and thanks for all of the compliments.
You are right, there is no printed version of the Orange Papers.
Personally, I recommend that people just
burn their own CDs of the
web site.
But paper does sometimes have advantages, like that you
can read it without a computer.
Funny how things come in patterns.
I was just saying in a previous letter:
I particularly recommend reading about the
Lizard Brain Addiction Monster.
Understanding how that works has been a life-saver for me.
Have a good day.
== Orange
Greetings, I am a grateful recovering alcoholic and my name is Matt. I chanced upon your website just now and thought I'd look it over. I honestly haven't read too much of it as of yet but I can't help from forming an opinion on something so utterly judgmental and heartless. I am not here to change your mind, you will believe what you want to and it is your right to be yourself. That is something I have learned to practice in my life because of A.A.
Hello Matthew,
Thanks for the letter.
Heartless? Perhaps you should read the rest of the
web site before passing judgement. What is really heartlesss is Bill Wilson
foisting a completely ineffective cult religion routine on sick people
and
lying to them and telling them that it works great as a cure for alcoholism.
I only have 16 months of contented, continuous sobriety and this is my first time in the program, and I realize the little I know is very little. But I do know that without a doubt A.A has saved my life. Before I came into the program the only way I knew how to live was on a path that had led me through being fired from jobs, evicted from apartments, pushing people out of my life, turning my back on anyone who sought to help me and eventually landing in jail during a blackout where I had attacked my roommate and hit a cop with my fist. That was December 25, 2004 and from that day since I have had neither drink nor drug. But I did not do it on my own.
Actually, you do not know that A.A. saved your life. You assume it because
somebody fooled you into thinking that.
You like A.A.. So what?
That doesn't prove the worth of any particular "program" for quitting drinking.
One of the biggest problems with A.A. is how the true believers
regularly
assume that some goofy routine like making lists of their sins or surrendering
their will to somebody else made them quit drinking, and then
they go around telling everybody else that they have a great — even an infallible —
"program for sobriety".
Such brain-damaged logic is like this cause-and-effect fallacy:
Post hoc, ergo propter hoc
— "It happened after something, so it was caused by that something."
That's just like saying,
"I went to a few A.A. meetings and then quit drinking, so A.A. caused me to quit drinking."
A.A. true believers are notorious for
assuming a cause and effect relationship
between A.A. practices and quitting drinking where none actually exists.
And the A.A. boosters ignore all of the evidence to the contrary, like the zillions
of other alcoholics who go to A.A. and don't quit drinking.
I have 5 years of sobriety, and before I quit drinking, my life was hell too.
So it goes. So what?
Since then, I have spent a lot of time in the library, and done a lot
of research, and I have worked on this web site a lot.
Does that prove that the library is a superior program for sobriety?
Should we start a new recovery cult that is based on library attendance?
We can even work up some great testimonials like,
The truth is, you quit drinking because you chose to.
You finally got sick and tired of the pain and suffering, so you changed your
life. Welcome to the club.
Like I said before, the only way I knew how to live was destructively. I had to come to A.A. to find a better way to live. Baloney. They've really been working on your head, haven't they? They've got you grovelling and putting yourself down and talking about how bad you are. That's one of the ways that A.A. hurts people. The thing about A.A. that attracts me so much is how while our experiences may vary from person to person we all know of the feelings we have experienced. While this person may have only drank 2 or 3 times a week and I may have been a nightly blackout drinker it is why we drank, not how much, that binds us together, that allows us to come together and share our experience, strength and hope and help each other to recover. So you enjoy the social club. That does not make it a working cure for alcoholism. But, we are not perfect. As you are so apt to quote the Big Book you should know this. "We are not saints. The point is that we are willing to grow along spiritual lines. *We practice spiritual progress rather than spiritual perfection*." We are on a path to better ourselves and I find it very disheartening that someone would shun and attack the path that has given me more than I have ever deserved to get. I am a grateful recovering alcoholic; I love A.A. and I hope it shows. If you really want to grow along spiritual lines, learn an absolute, uncompromising respect for the truth.
One thing that, I don't know, gets under my skin is a lot of peoples misconception that A.A. is a cult or a religion. The only requirement for A.A. membership is a desire to stop drinking. There is no requirement to believe in anything, except that desire to stop. A very good friend of mine with sobriety I seriously want is an avid agnostic and frequently says so in meetings. We are all free to believe or not believe as we so choose. What works for me is a loving and caring God, a God of my understanding and when I help other alcoholics I do so from my personal experience, strength and hope which includes the God of my understanding. That person I help though is under no obligation whatsoever to believe or even receive the help I so freely give of myself. I have helped a few alcoholics in my sobriety and unfortunately some of them are not sober today. But the funny thing about that is that I am, and that is the point. My sobriety comes first and I maintain that by picking up the simple kit of spiritual tools that are laid at my feet, not by joining a cult or practicing a religion.
Oh course A.A. is a religion. Six of the Twelve Steps talk about God and how
God will fix you if you turn your will and your life over to
"Higher Power", and
then you must confess all of your sins, and in return, "God" will be so
pleased by your pathetic grovelling that He will give you
miracles on demand,
and fix all of your "moral shortcomings"
for you, and then talk to you and give you secret messages and the power to
carry out His orders.
That is a religion. That is even an occult religion.
Read the Big Book again. Especially read
the chapter "We Agnostics",
where Bill Wilson insisted that all of those agnostics and atheists had to
start believing his way, or else.
And I saw you also write about how you know for a fact that Bill W. didn't practice what he preached yet people in the program worship him. You didn't go into detail in that particular instance I read, and maybe you did elsewhere, but I don't know. What I do know is that Bill W. abused prescription drugs and even took acid in an attempt to improve his conscious contact with God. This is common knowledge amongst a great number of A.A.'s. He did this well into his so called sobriety. He even spoke at a conference about this and how it was "helping" him. He was quickly set straight on that. I have great admiration for that man. But he is human and an alcoholic and has made mistakes. I have never worshiped him nor have I ever seen anyone worship him.
Well I've heard people worshipping him. You should read some of the other letters
that I get.
And it isn't just a matter of Bill not practicing what he preached. It's a matter of
him doing things like
sexually exploiting sick women
who came to A.A. seeking help
in overcoming alcohol. That is really low and heartless.
Personally, I don't care how much LSD Bill took, but I do care about him
lying about the A.A. success rate
and foisting a giant fraud on the world.
That is also really low and heartless.
Oh, and the statistics. Yeah, we in A.A. have heard them all. My favorite is that 95% do not make it past 5 years. A good friend of mine in the program once said that statistics are there so that we can prove them wrong. The real problem with doing studies on a program whose foundation is built on anonymity is that people tend to practice that principle of anonymity. So, I just laugh these days when stats or numbers or studies or whatever are brought up because I have seen A.A. work for others and I have seen it work for me.
Now right there you are revealing that you don't want to know the truth.
You just sneer at numbers and facts that you don't like by saying,
"we've heard it all before".
(That is just classic A.A.
minimization and denial.)
Well that cuts both ways. I've heard all of the standard A.A. fables and fallacies and
lies before too, and they don't get any better with the passage of years.
Your attempt to dismiss all A.A. statistics and failure rates because people are anonymous
doesn't wash. In many tests, the people are not anonymous because the judge ordered
them to go to A.A.. (Does that sound familiar?)
In many other tests, doctors are conducting the tests of A.A., and yes, they had
people's names.
One of the better, longer tests of A.A. was done by
Dr. George E. Vaillant,
who later became a Professor of Psychology at Harvard University, and
who is currently a member of the Board of Trustees of Alcoholics Anonymous World Services, Inc..
He absolutely loves A.A. and thinks everybody should join it.
Vaillant spent the better part of 20 years shoving A.A.-based treatment on alcoholics, and
testing A.A., and trying to prove that A.A. works.
He came up with some of the most damning information:
A.A. was completely ineffective and didn't help the alcoholics at all. The most
notable effect of A.A. was that
it raised the death rate of alcoholics.
Go read the file on
The Effectiveness of the 12-Step
Treatment very carefully. You will get a lot of solid facts.
One of the most important things I have learned in A.A. is that people are people. They are going to act and behave how they want regardless of what I say or do, just like I am not responsible for any ones sobriety but my own, just like this letter will not deter you from continuing to bad mouth Alcoholics Anonymous, just like what you say about Alcoholics Anonymous will not keep me from doing the do and working the program. I am not "bad mouthing" A.A.; I am telling the truth. There is a big difference there. I will say this though. I feel sad, because you seem so passionate about this cause, that the only forum you have found (that I know of) is an obscure web site that some (emphasis on some) people have happened upon by pure luck and chance. I know personally that if I was this passionate about something I would be yelling from the rooftops, so to speak. I wouldn't have some obscure out of the way website that probably 99% of the people who ever get on the web would never in a million years find. But that's just me, I have nothing to hide or hide from. Not today at least.
If you think that nobody is reading my web site, then you should be very happy
about that, and yet, you are complaining.
Actually, my web site is getting more traffic than you realize.
And you found it, didn't you?
I hope I have not offended you. If I have then I apologize, but cannot take responsibility for your feeling offended. That is something else I have learned in the program, which is only I am responsible for my feelings and I cannot be responsible for those of others. But anyways, rock on with your bad self.
What a mess of sancimonious double-talk. You say you hope you haven't offended
me, and then you tell me to "rock on with my bad self", and you say that
I am just "bad mouthing" A.A.?
My goal is to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing
but the truth about alcoholics, alcoholism, addiction, recovery, and Alcoholics Anonymous.
That is not indulging a "bad self".
I do not know why you must be so judgmental and harsh towards an organization that has truly helped millions of people across the globe over the past nearly 71 years. No it hasn't. That is the Big Lie of Alcoholics Anonymous. A.A. has a zero percent success rate about normal spontaneous remission. A.A. hasn't "saved" anybody. Alcoholics who go to A.A. do not quit drinking in any greater numbers than the other alcoholics who don't go to A.A., but they do binge drink more and die in greater numbers. And I hate to bring this point up because it just sounds so brazen and ego driven, but honestly, A.A. was here long before you helping alcoholics to achieve sobriety and will be here long after you helping alcoholics to achieve sobriety, so what's your point? What are you trying to achieve here? Who are you talking to from your back water web site?
As I keep saying, my point is to get true information out there.
The fact that A.A. was started in 1935 does not mean that it is good.
That is actually a big negative — A.A. is just some obsolete old cult
religion nonsense that is no better than
the poisonous
hallucinogenic belladonna quack cure for alcoholism
that Bill Wilson got in Towns Hospital.
Anyways........... I ask that if you didn't the first time you read this that you go back again and only read the black. It is so easy to read into things, I know this from personal experience. Some of what you have said about the Big Book I have said myself, but I only did so because I couldn't stop reading into it and couldn't just read the black. What's not written there truly is not there, I promise you.
Best of luck,
Huh? "Only read the black?" What are you talking about?
Are you trying to imply that I shouldn't see what is really going on?
That I should be dim-witted and shallow and not be able to see the kinds
of con games that Bill Wilson was running on people's heads?
I shouldn't recognize all of the cutesy propaganda tricks and
word games and deceptions and lies?
Sorry, but I just don't feel like being that blind and stupid.
Oh well, have a good day anyway. And good luck to you too.
== Orange
nicely done! you must get alot of hate mail... maybe even death threats by attacking that cult.... do you? I am using your materiel to help address some people who feel like failures because they have not maintained sobriety in AA. the cult is not rigorously honest in pretending that it: isn't a cult of personality, that it isn't religious, that it works, that the steps are "suggestions", and that it is not anti-science (in christian science kind of way). I think part of the problem is that, of those who "keep coming back" the "old timers" are exactly the people who are radical fanatics who have not moved on with any kind of balance in their lives and who continue to attend daily meetings even after years of "recovery" and subordinate the rest of the facets of a normal life to the cult, and who are nevertheless looked to as the elders of the organization (in spite of the "one day at a time philosophy) so have the influence to make the cult so intolerant and essentially static in its suspicion of science and statistics etc. The whole organization is threatened by any earnest querying of it's effectiveness as you have pointed out... very hard to see people in need, in pain and sometimes under professional risk be actually SENT to the 12 step treatment programs with no alternative!!! seems almost all treatment is the "Minnesota model" and therefore essentially professional 12 step indoctrination facilities... only a few voices in the wilderness are out there to shine the light of rationality onto the cult... like yours keep up the excellent rational, thoughtful analysis....
Hi Richard,
Thanks for the letter, and all of the compliments. And yes, it is really unfortunate that
93% of the treatment centers in the USA foist cult religion on sick
people as "treatment".
I hope that we can eventually improve that situation.
Oh, and about the death threats — funny that you should mention that.
I get lots of hate mail, but generally don't get death threats.
But I just recently had a guy really lose it in the newsgroup
alt.recovery.from-12-steps, and start swearing that he was going to kill me.
Fortunately, he's just a harmless lunatic.
Have a good day.
== Orange
i heard that u have decided to line with moderate managment and apolitical i hope this is true we are opposed to stoicism and aa 12 steps. this has brain washed people not to take a stand to do away with the political religious right. the 12 steps incite people to support conservative and shifty fascism. mike m.
Hi Mike,
Thanks for the letter.
I am kind of neutral about
Moderation Management.
It's okay for some people,
and not for others. Some of us, like me, must totally abstain from alcohol.
Others really can manage to keep it under control and just drink moderately.
To each his own. Whichever works for you.
I agree that the 12-Step philosophy is at its core
fascist in nature
— you
must be the abject servant of some "Higher Power" or other.
Bill Wilson constantly declared in so many ways that
you were incompetent to
think for yourself or manage your own life,
and that you should just "Follow
the dictates of a Higher Power".
And then, they don't have any problem with "Higher Power"
being another person, like your sponsor, rather than God.
I have no desire to be anyone's slave.
Have a good day.
== Orange
Thank you for confirming my thoughts that I am involved in a cult. It is so terrible. I have been involved in NA for over 12 months now. I go to meetings regularly. I am currently on the fourth step. In the last year my life has had a drastic change. I'm not drinking or drugging. My family life is great again. I don't want to die. I'm happy.
Hello Mark,
Thanks for the letter.
Congratulations on your newfound sobriety. Alas, you are confusing the issues.
You are assuming that your new happiness comes from your new cult. It does not.
It comes from your newfound sobriety.
Your avoidance of drugs and alcohol has given you your health back.
How happy would you be if you had joined N.A. and kept right on doping?
On the other hand, you could have quit the drink and dope routine and then gone
and joined the Nazi Party, and you would still be feeling great.
I have a God of my understanding now. Not my sponsors God, my God. Wow, I bet that really makes you nervous. When you hear the word God. I used to feel the same. I can understand your loneliness and paranoia. Loneliness that is evident in your exhausting Orange Papers on AA. You have a lot of time on your hands. The paranoia in thinking that AOL and Yahoo are out to get you. Talk about Grandiose thinking. Are you really that important.
You really have gone off of the deep end, haven't you? You think you are hearing the Word of God?
I don't have any problem with loneliness or paranoia, nor with grandiose thinking.
I'm just one guy who is working on getting the truth out there for those who want it.
(Which you obviously don't.)
You also know nothing about my religious beliefs.
I don't really know much about the founders of NA or AA. In our groups and meetings it is rarely discussed. So why are you opposed to learning the truth? We talk about applying spiritual principals in our lives and help each other by sharing our experience, strength, and hope. It is so awful, I can't imagine continuing on for the rest of my life growing spiritually, staying clean, helping others and worst of all being happy. Even so, thank you for enlightening me about the founders of AA/NA. They were truly fallible human beings. I wonder what we would find if we looked into your past. Or are you the messiah. Are you the one who has walked the earth free of sin.
That is
a diversionary tactic
— shift the focus of attention to somebody else, and attack somebody else.
You have learned the Stepper's debating and propaganda tricks well.
Are you really trying to claim that because I am less than perfect that it is
okay for a deceitful
thieving
philandering
con artist to foist a quack cure for alcoholism on
a lot of sick people and then
lie about how well it works?
Your new religion gave you some very funny moral standards.
What's it called, "Two wrongs make a right"?
You are undoubtedly intelligent. You know so much more than I do about the program. You are able to take AA/NA slogans out of context and fit them into your own interpretation to support your claims that AA/NA is a cult. You know things the average person in NA doesn't know or care to know. I just take what I need and I leave the rest behind.
That is a great example of the 12-Step cult's anti-intellectual attitude: There are some NA Guru's that don't have much of a life and never had much of one to recover so recovery is all they have. These guy are probably very similar to you. All you have is your computer and research and the drive to, for whatever reason, research and write about something that really should have no importance to you. And that is an example of the propaganda technique called ad hominem. Steppers do that a lot. When you don't have any facts on your side, just attack the speaker. If you can't get anything on him, then make something up. Anyway, thank you. I now know I'm in a cult. Hopefully, I'm getting a real good brainwashing. I needed it. You already got it. Your brain is toast. The way I was living wasn't working. I was going to die. I needed help. I found that help in NA. Through joining a cult.
The fact that you enjoy your N.A. meetings does not mean that your life was saved by
N.A..
You saved your own life by quitting the dope and drink habits.
Of course you were going to die if you didn't quit. So you quit.
It is absurd for you to insist that you couldn't quit until you went to a room where
somebody said,
"Quit doping, tell your story to the wall, and chant these slogans."
Actually, you couldn't quit until you got sick and tired of being sick and tired,
and decided not to die that way.
I'll try not to drink the cool-aide. Why don't you put your gifts to good use and remove yourself from your own little anti-AA/NA cult. Your cult really has no purpose and NA does, it has helped me, who have you helped? Mark
Mark, I don't have a cult.
How could one man alone possibly have a cult? Get real.
And you have a good day too.
== Orange
[2nd letter from Mark:]
Date: Thu, June 1, 2006 12:40 Orange, I read your response and man you are extremely defensive. Seems like you need a program yourself.
Hello again Mark,
Nothing like starting off with
a good attack.
It's funny that you simultaneously accuse me of being defensive.
You are dead set on the fact that somehow I am loony because I don't see things as you do. Uh no, it's more the claims that you are hearing the Voice of God, and that you are a true believer in an occult cult religion. You are right and the hundreds of thousands of "12 steppers" through out the world are wrong.
Correct.
And I am also right about Scientology, and hundreds of thousands of Scientologists who disagree
with me are wrong, including Tom Cruise.
And I am also right about the Moonies, and hundreds of thousands of Moonies who disagree
with me are wrong.
And so on, and so on, with the rest of the cults.
You are trying to convince me that what has worked for me, what I'm telling you about me, is wrong and you are convinced that I'm wrong. That's not grandiose thinking? You are assuming a cause and effect relationship where none exists. A.A. did not make you quit drinking any more than the rooster's crowing makes the sun rise. Let me explain it to you again. I had tried to stop on my own to no avail.
Walt Disney did the same routine with Dumbo and the Magic Flying Feather.
The "magic feather" that the crow gave to Dumbo "made"
Dumbo able to fly.
When people tell me that the Twelve Steps "made" them quit drinking or doping,
or "helped" them to quit, I always think about Dumbo's Magic Flying Feather.
What NA has given me is tools to use when I have thoughts of using. I have learned things about staying clean that I did not know before I went to my first meeting. First and foremost I have found people who have been through similar experiences as me and who I can share what is going on with me and get help getting through it. Things that I had a hard time getting through on my own. "The therapeutic value of one addict helping another" is real. You wouldn't understand and you aren't expected to.
Again, you are deliberately overlooking the fact that I am also an old ex-addict,
ex-drinker, ex-smoker, you name it. I lived on a hippie commune and tripped my
brains out for years. I tried to take every drug known to man, just as an experiment,
and almost succeeded. There were only a few rare ones that I didn't get.
You have no idea what I know.
There is a fair chance that I've taken more drugs than you.
So you enjoy going to N.A. meetings and talking to people. That's nice, but that is
not evidence that the 12-Step cult cures people of addictions.
You have not presented any evidence that N.A. or 12-Step meetings make people quit
doping, or "help" them to quit.
You haven't presented any evidence that people who go to A.A. or N.A. quit their addictions
in greater numbers than the people who quit on their own, alone.
You just keep yammering that you like the meetings,
and you get "spiritual", and you hear the Voice of God, and then
you launch sneering attacks on anyone who criticizes your new church.
That is itself evidence of a cult.
I also occasionally talk with other ex-drinkers and ex-dopers, and you know, it's funny,
but we can arrive at the truth without babbling any 12-Step slogans.
One of my favorite lines is, "You know, we are just getting to
be too old to be doing that routine any more."
That does it for me.
However, you have to defend your work at all cost. I understand that. You have spent a lot of time and effort in your research and you have tried to disguise it as fact. That is an ad hominem put-down. Standard Stepper debating technique. Don't debate the real issues; just attack the speaker. You mention that one of the first and foremost characteristics of a cult is that there has to be a figure head of some sort, someone to follow. No, I did not say that. Steppers say that when they are trying to argue that Steppism is not a cult. The Charismatic Leader is only 1 of 100 cult characteristics in my Cult Test. As I told you in my previous e-mail I don't know anything about Bill or the other people you mentioned nor do I care to know. Who started NA doesn't matter to me. You know so much more than I do about those people. In our groups, who started NA, is almost never discussed. So if we don't worship or follow or give our money too or whatever cultists do, how can it be a cult.
Again, that is broken logic. Lots of cults have dead leaders. Bill Wilson and
Doctor Bob are the dead saints of Steppism. N.A. simply ignores them, but they
really are the bozos who started the 12-Step cult, which includes both A.A. and N.A..
And "what ever cultists do"
is things like going to meetings and mindlessly
babbling slogans, and parrotting insane dogma out of "It Works, How And Why".
(I own a copy, and it's just as crazy as the Big Book of A.A..)
As far as the God thing and spirituality if you think that is crazy or insane then so be it.
Wrong again. That is not what I said. The insanity is practicing
the cult religion
of Frank Buchman and Bill Wilson. There again you are right and the billions of people who have faith in a "Higher Power" are wrong. Grandiose thinking again. Wrong again. I did not say that. I am criticizing Buchmanism and the 12-Step religion, and you are dishonestly trying to twist my words and claim that I am criticizing all religions. I most assuredly am not doing so. Go read the file The Heresy of the 12 Steps. I would again suggest that you find something better to do with your time and intellect. I'm sure you wouldn't get the attention that you are receiving if you did. We couldn't have that now could we. Another ad hominem. You are full of them. So sad and such a waste. I'm sure your are a busy man, enlightening the thousands of people who e-mail you how wrong they are and that their experiences in a 12 step program are unfounded. The great and powerful Orange is all knowing and could never be wrong. And that is the propaganda technique called "Sarcasm and Condescension". I do enjoy the discussion however and thank you for your response. You have a good day as well sir. Mark M.
NA Cult member #666
You have a good day too, Mark.
== Orange
I read your paper and all I can say is that obviously you don't know anyone who is alcoholic and/or you are not one. I have been around the disease my whole life and you mock the words of Bill W.
Hello, Whichever you are.
I don't "mock" the words of Bill Wilson.
I show him to be the sleazy lying philandering con artist that
he really was.
And yes,
I am an alcoholic
who now has 5 years of sobriety after 20 or so years of drinking too much.
I find it amusing how the Steppers start complaining that I'm not a real alcoholic,
or don't know anything about alcoholics,
when I tell the truth about things. But when a 17-year-old kid gets busted for a DWI
coming home from a party and gets sentenced to A.A. by the judge, the Steppers immediately
tell him that he's a real alcoholic and he has to keep coming back to meetings for
the rest of his life...
So apparently, whether you are a "real alcoholic" or not depends on whether you know
the sordid history of Alcoholics Anonymous, and will say it out loud.
You have every right to your opinion but I am saying I have watched people and been around it and you are so very wrong in what really happens to the people. I have seen people change once they do the 12 steps and have a Higher Power in their lives. It doesn't even have to be God but they need something. Alcoholics almost always change for the better when they stop drinking. The improvements are often dramatic. A.A. doesn't improve the situation any, and A.A. harms a lot of other people. You are pointedly ignoring all of those other people who don't benefit from the A.A. routine. I am thankful for those who have been helped with the AA program and it isn't for everyone I suppose but I have seen the program work if the alcoholic follows the program and works the 12 steps with a sponsor.
Yada, yada, yada. That's just the same old garbage. You could be replaced with
a parrot or a phonograph record.
A.A. does not save or "help" alcoholics. It has a zero percent success rate above
normal spontaneous remission. That means that alcoholics recover at the same rate
no matter whether they go to A.A. or not.
And then A.A. actually
raises the rate of binge drinking, and
raises the death rate.
And then there is always that qualifier:
"A.A. works great
IF
the alcoholic quits drinking and 'works a strong program'."
And A.A. doesn't work at all if the guy doesn't quit drinking, does it?
So A.A. shifts the burden onto the alcoholic:
Heads I win, tails you lose. That is fraud.
Thanks for reading and I hope that you will consider my opinion.
Okay, it's been considered. Have a good day anyway.
== Orange
Hey Again Orangie — You could probably give me a good run for my money on the amount of time and energy spent on alcoholic research. I am not even sure that we are on opposite sides of the AA issue. I don't honestly think you know why you are sober today anymore than I do. I just happen to have been attending AA for a long time when I got sober. I give a lot of credit to the folks that supported me that happended to be in the same building which happened to have AA meetings going on.
Hi again Tom,
Actually, I do think I know why I am sober today. It's because I haven't swallowed any
alcohol in the last five years. That works every time.
Now why I quit swallowing alcohol is of course a different question.
For me, the answer is still very simple. I was really sick and the doctor told me
to quit drinking or I would die. I thought it over and decided
that I really didn't want to die that way. End of story.
Then, three weeks later, I quit smoking for the same reason. It sure is nice to be
able to breathe without my chest hurting.
I went to biker AA meetings where the only rules were "no rules at all." But it did give me somewhere to hang out. Havent been back in many years cause of the crazy bullshit. Now I am fighting the nicotine battle and its a pure bitch. It sure does seem like a lot of us (we are about the same age) get sick and tired of being sick and tired about the same time in life.
Yes, absolutely yes. I think it's a different kind of mid-life crisis where
you learn the hard way that you aren't immortal after all, and that the stuff really
is going to kill you.
Then it's just the Big Choice.
One of those existentialists, either Sartre or Camus, said "The only philosophical
question is whether to commit suicide."
(No wonder some people find existentialists to be depressing and no fun at parties.)
I have come to believe that we really dont have much choice in actually getting sober. If we are lucky, and at a pretty general age, we are able to get sober during the window of genetic opportunity. Many die. Hmmm. That's an interesting concept. I'm not sure I agree. I'll have to think about that one for a while. It certainly is true that almost 50% of all of the alcoholics end up dying prematurely from their unhealthy habits. Alcoholism will someday have a medical cure that will curtail most addictions. That is of course when the fucking Christians get the hell out of the way of science. I am as scared today with nicotine as I was alcohol. You think we have choice and I agree we may have choice but only when the time is right. Or else it is just luck that we "get choice" and get sober around a similair age. Or maybe alcoholics are just slow learners. Tom
I agree with the idea of "when the time is right".
What that means is different for different people.
I know that for me, the times when I could quit smoking or drinking were almost magical.
One time, I quit smoking for a whole year just by saying, "I need
all of my energy for this trip".
I threw my pack of cigarettes into the fire, and got into my jeep and
drove to another state and a new life, and I don't even recall any
withdrawal. That was it, just like that.
But at other times, I'd be crawling the walls for a cigarette
and backslide after a week or two.
Very strange.
Oh well, good luck on your quitting. I strongly recommend those patches. That's what
I used, the last time around. You still go through withdrawal, but the patches split
it into two bearable halves. First, you detox from the hundred other toxic addictive
things in cigarettes, and then, when that is over, you quit the nicotine.
It was just so much easier to do the withdrawal in halves. I don't mind the withdrawal.
I just don't like the totally flipping out and going insane,
and then smoking a cigarette anyway part of it.
Have a good day, and good luck.
== Orange
Hello, Orange, Thank you very much for printing my previous e-mail. Greetings from the United Blairdom! Thankfully, my faith in Democracy is beginning to be restored. Let's start off by talking about the Christianity of the 12 Steps. A God of my understanding sounds very much like a God created in my image — i.e. Idolatry. Which I believe, violates one of the 10 Commandments of Christianity (and Judaism). What a beautiful God to have, one who will do all your bidding! Does AA conform with Chapter 13, verses 4 to 7 of the 1st Letter of St. Paul to the Corinthians? My experience tells me not. I feel really saddened when some actually beautiful people are led astray by the pied piper of the 12 steps. 12-Step junk religion really is the opium of the people. If alcoholism/addiction are spiritual illnesses, how come the upper echelons of Organized Crime tend to be CLEAN and SOBER people? 12-step junk psychology consciously endorses a negative self image, especially on people who have chronic bad self-esteem i.e. many newcomers and in those who are not so new. No wonder it fails. The 12 step fellowships are like the Hotel California. You can check out any time you like, but you can never leave. Thanks for letting me get this off my chest. I feel better already.
God bless you.
Hi again Noel,
It's good to hear from you again. And I couldn't agree more.
The 12-Step stuff is grossly unChristian and heretical.
I still wonder what the preachers are thinking when they let
A.A. meet in their basements.
Oh well, have a good day anyway.
== Orange
I'm not sure who or what i'm typing to, i'm just typing its informative to see what you have written here. some is true but most of the material is incomplete. i have only read a bit, but enough to see. i hope through this text, we can share our views its true that most alcoholics that are exposed to AA the first few times and attend a fair amount of meetings, do not stay sober. in fact, with many, their disease worsens even' till death as you mentioned. AA to the mind and perception of a normy or a newcomer seems cult-like and intimidating and useless. it seems to have a high failure rate. it neeeds to seem that way, how else could you get faith.
Hello Anastasios,
Thanks for the letter. First off, I have to ask, "WHAT!?"
A.A. needs to seem like a failure? So that you will get faith? Faith in what? That is nonsense.
if some burly white haired white bearded man came out of the sky with some lighting staff in a toga stating he is god and this is what you will believe in if you want paradise, it would be easy to believe. i thought nothing when i first entered the rooms of AA almost two years ago. i thought no future, no life, no light, but i still stumbled along in a broken and clueless state of mind to what would follow. and only through time(sober) and constant work on myself did my perception change to what you might label as brainwashed, but i see as common sense and solution.
The fact that you eventually came to believe that A.A. somehow works
doesn't mean that it works, or helps people.
It just means that you got fooled into believing that it works.
as you may have heard, AA is not for the people that want it or need it, it's simply for the people that do it. this does'nt mean go to meetings and roll through the steps with a sponsor confessing all your wrongs of your past to him, yourself, and god, then make ammends to all and help others. yes, these are the ingredients to sobriety but its all for nothing if it's not done with love and sincerity. its all nothing if you dont make your own journey and create your own understanding of whats really going on. its ultimate liberation from attachment to everything that truly means nothing and cherishhing the things in life that count. it means understanding that your life has been lost (by your own doing), and you have been given a chance, for some unknown reason, to be reborn. this means being grateful and letting go of the illusion that you are in control of your life.
That is more nonsense. You are doing a great job of showing that A.A. is a cult
religion.
And I most assuredly am in control of my life. How could I have 5 years off of
all drugs and alcohol, and even cigarettes, if I didn't have control over myself?
The A.A. teachings about how
you are powerless
and don't have control over your
consumption habits is one of the really bad aspects of Alcoholics Anonymous.
They have killed a lot of people with that misinformation.
" you ever talk to someone who has seen their death and lived through it? Yes, me for one. every breath they take from that point forward is a better world for them and they want to share that feeling with all who suffer" I won't argue with that. That's true. But that doesn't mean that you should then flip out and go join a cult religion. i had no escape, i had no release. i could'nt enjoy drinking anymore and i could'nt stop drinking. i could not escape my thoughts, my brain, everything. i wanted to die but could not kill myself. i moved accross the states, i was chewing on pills, i was making "her" my source of happiness, i was blacking out, i couldnt tell what was real anymore. it was hell. Nevertheless, you did quit, didn't you? We all know that the depths of addiction is a private hell. But that doesn't make A.A. good. anyhow, when a person falls apart and death is */not/* near, ultimate sadness and hoplesness are all thats left. you wait, naked, cold and shaking to welcome death as you imagine it can only get better in some other world. you say that one prayer, and i dont care if your athiest, agnostic or whatever, a person gives birth to a belief in something even if its nothing when they're at the point of insanity. "please help me". those are the words of a turning point. thats it. one grain, thats how it must begin, through pain and struggle. on a long enough timeline, a true alcoholic will somehow end up in the rooms of AA whether it be court, jail, fear or even just to get out of the rain.
So you flipped out and joined a cult religion. So what?
And most alcoholics and
addicts actually quit without A.A. or any so-called support group.
The Harvard Medical School reported that 4 out of 5 successful quitters did it
alone, on their own.
So it just isn't true that all of the "true alcoholics" will end up in Alcoholics
Anonymous.
(And what's with the word games? "true alcoholics"? As opposed to those who are
faking it, or what?)
they may hear and understand perfectly well all the speakers and all the stories. surely this person will relate to many of the folk around him but this doesnt mean he will get sober. he may leave the same day and drink, he may stay sober one year and drink, he may live long and die in peace, sober. noone knows. a person can be introduced to AA when they are fiffteen and not get sober till they are 30. */ it takes what it takes/*. so i find it difficult to beleive that the tests showing 90 plus percent of people going into AA end up drunk or worse than they did before they came in.
You may find it difficult to believe, but it's true just the same.
Furthermore, it is wrong to assume that somebody who quits drinking 15 years
after going to an A.A. meeting is quitting because of Alcoholics Anonymous.
A.A. can't claim any credit for those people getting their lives together their
own way.
Bill Wilson used to pull that stunt often,
trying to claim credit for the sobriety of every sober
person that he ever preached to, but it's a phony act.
The real reasons why people quit is that they get sick and tired of
being sick and tired, and want a better life,
not because they went to an A.A. meeting several years earlier.
very few people get introduced to AA for the first time and stay sober for the rest of their lives. most relapse than recover. this may happen a series of times. maybe during your trials of people attempting to recover, you see them get well, stay well, than get stone drunk and possibly die. if that be the case, than the book is shut, your stats ring true. but say they stay drunk and live. you naturally discontinue tracking them. then five years go by and they get sober in some different state. they stay sober till death and and managed to help other alcoholics along the way. than your stats are invalid.
You are still trying to claim credit for people who quit drinking many
years after A.A. last saw them. Their quitting, and their sobriety,
has nothing to do with Alcoholics Anonymous.
And I get a hint in there that you are trying to assume that they will return
to A.A. 5 or more years later, and get sober in A.A. then. But that isn't what happens.
Remember that the Harvard Medical School reported that 4 out of 5 successful
quitters does it on his own, alone, not in some "support group".
So they don't return to A.A. and sober up later. They reject A.A. —
they walk out and go do it their own way.
Their sobriety has nothing to do with Alcoholics Anonymous.
the truth is, it would be very difficult to track the success rate of AA.
Nevertheless, people have managed to do very good studies of Alcoholics Anonymous.
One of them is currently a member of the Board of Trustees of Alcoholics Anonymous
[World] Services, Inc., and he loves A.A. and tried very hard, for about 20 years,
to prove that A.A. works. In the end, he had to candidly report that
A.A. didn't
work at all and it just raised the death rate
of the alcoholics who were sent to A.A..
its true AA is not easy, its not religious and its not a cult.
it wants and asks nothing of the individual only to find there
way. the harvard fellow stating that AA is worse than useless, clearly
has no understanding of alcoholism, who cares if he is a trustee or if
he is a proff. at harvard.
Of course A.A. is both a religion and a cult.
Oh, and now you are trying to ignore Prof. Dr. George E. Vaillant, and blow him
off because you don't like what he found?
Spoken like a true cultist. Just do
the minimization and denial tap-dance
when somebody says something that you don't like.
(Even if it's one of the leaders of Alcoholics Anonymous.)
Go into denial and reject all facts that conflict with your favorite beliefs.
"My opinions will not be swayed by mere facts."
Remember that Bill Wilson wrote that A.A. requires "grasping and developing a manner of living that demands rigorous honesty." (Big Book, page 58, of course.)
there is one truth. your stats and numbers are true and accurate (so far as i can tell) for short term testing, but you're not proving the paragraph on pg. 58 (above) of the big book wrong. there are *very_ few people who have thoroughly followed the path_*. and this path continues for each alcoholic everyday, which means at any point you can stray from the path and fall of that wagon. its like any other path.
Now you are just playing along with Bill Wilson's stunt of
lying with qualifiers.
Bill was very clever about leaving himself an escape hatch
for when his grandiose lies were found out.
When most of his group relapsed and returned to a life of drinking, he could say,
That is all just dishonest and deceptive word games. It doesn't save any alcoholics' lives.
i hear speakers all the time with multiple years of sobriety talking about other alcoholics with even more years of sobriety. for a program thats been around 70 years and has spread worldwide in that time, your stats of 98% failure or 100% failure seem unusual. if you start with 100 people(drunks) > after 1 year only 2 are sober> multiply that by 70, you get 140. of course every year after the first, more than 100 people attempt to get sober but think about it............more Huh? That doesn't make any sense. at the start of this brief text, i mentioned that you have written some informative things here. its nice to see an oustide perspective on AA. from someone who may never understand AA. I have sat in your seat and claimed this program a joke. in fact, when i was trying to find a rehab centre for me to check into, i was trying to avoid 12 step programs. but, when your a raging alcoholic like me, and you land in the hospital with DT's again, eventually you surrender to anything and everything just to find peace. thats all i really wanted when i checked in. i wanted to sleep well for once and have peace. -Anastasios-
So you didn't like Alcoholics Anonymous at first,
but then they got into your head and changed your mind,
and you
surrendered your mind
and your will to the cult,
and now you are a confused true believer. So what?
That doesn't mean that A.A. saves lives or makes alcoholics quit drinking.
Oh well, have a good day anyway.
== Orange
Hello, I enjoyed your article <http://www.orange-papers.info/orange-intro.html> about 12 step programs. I was looking around the Internet for such articles because I just knew that a program that teaches people that they are "powerless" and that they must turn to a power outside of themselves to heal, could not possibly work very well for many people. I believe in mind over matter. I have been addicted to many drugs in my life, most recently pain pills. I stopped using those 2 years ago by switching over to Suboxone, a drug that keeps you from going into withdrawal but doesn't get you high. I didn't miss the "highs" from the pills. I had convinced myself that I had to quit, and so I did. I used the power of my mind to do it. I did not need "God" or anyone other than me. I do not believe that I'm powerless. I think that anyone who truly believes they are powerless is going to have a difficult time ever quitting drugs. Why can't everyone see that it's a stupid premise that doesn't work? You have to believe in your own personal power in order to achieve anything in life. On January 27th of this year, my husband and I both quit smoking cigarettes. I had smoked for 17 years. I always thought I could never quit, mainly because all the messages I had received told me that it was SO HARD to quit. "Most people try to quit seven times before succeeding," the experts would say. Whatever. I just bought a box of nicotine patches and started telling myself that it was "so easy" to quit. "I can't believe how easy it is to quit," I'd tell myself over and over (positive reinforcement). I would tell other people the same thing. And guess what? It was easy because I believed it was. Not because God helped me with me. The patches were helpful too although they made they gave me a pretty bad allergic reaction. I didn't use them for the recommended amount of time, but I do think they helped. I also told my neighbor how "easy" it was to quit (and how I kept telling myself that so that it became true for me) and I gave her some of my patches and she must have believed what I told her because she quit too! We have all been quit for over 4 months now and I never think about smoking. It really does not even cross my mind unless my husband mentions it and says how proud he is of me for quitting.
Hi Heather,
Thanks for the letter, and all of the positive feedback. And congratulations on your
victory. Tobacco really is a big one, you know. I consider quitting
smoking just as important for
my health and happiness as quitting drinking.
What I wrote about was to ask you why you did not post your AA counselor's name in your article? If he was arrested for child rape and went to prison for it, I would think you would want to tell people who he is, so that if anyone Googles his name in the future, they will run across your page and read the truth about him. Otherwise, he will end up getting out of prison and screwing more little kids and trapping more people in the 12 step cult. You left his name out like you were trying to protect him (or yourself.) It's understandable if you do not want to get dragged into his problems, but if you really don't care what he thinks of you, and you want to help his future potential victims, then I hope you'll go ahead and put his name on the page. He cannot charge you with slander or anything since he was convicted of a crime. It's not like you are making up stories about him. He's a convicted criminal. It's just like posting a news article about him.
I fully intend to blow his anonymity at the same time as I blow mine.
At the moment, to reveal his identity would reveal mine.
But one of these days I'll drop my anonymity, and I'll post every last gory detail of his case
that I can collect.
On the bright side, he still has more years of all-expenses-paid vacation time left,
lots more I think,
because they got him on multiple counts of 3 different felonies — 2 counts of
criminal sexual penetration of a minor, Internet child pornography, and cocaine all over
the place. That case is like a district attorney's dream come true.
And I hear that he didn't cop a plea — he went to trial and tried to beat the charges — so the
sentencing was probably heavy.
That crazy story rates a spot on TV — like Law and Order; Special Victims Unit.
And I do believe that the state will have him under pretty close surveillance for the
rest of his life. I can't imagine him ever working as a counselor or step-father again.
By the way, if you are interested in really screwing this guy over, I know how to make it so that when anyone types his name into Google, your article will come up first. ;) It's called Google bombing. You may have heard of it. If you are interested in doing this to him, let me know and I'll link to your page from my own sites, using his name as the link text (anchor text.) For an example of how Google bombing works, look up the phrase "miserable failure" in Google and you'll get a good laugh at what happens. You can also read about Google Bombing here <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_bomb>. I'll keep that in mind. Google bombing is new to me; I'll study it.
I would also like to mention that if a person has their monitor
resolution set to 800x600 (which about half the Internet population
does, including myself), then some of your pages do not display
properly. It is probably an issue with the tables or having an image(s)
that is stretching the table wider than the width of the page. On a few
of the pages that I've seen, I had to scroll left to right to read the
articles because the words go off the side of the page. Here are a few
of the pages that do that. I'm sure there are probably more if you set
your resolution to 800x600 and go through your site and look for them:
Ah, okay. Thanks for the heads up. I thought I had fixed all of those little problems.
You are right, it is caused by an extra-wide picture forcing the whole page to be
extra wide, and the text spills over the right-hand edge of the screen.
Personally, I set my screen resolution to huge numbers like 2048x1536,
because I'm a resolution fanatic and like huge screens,
so I often don't notice any problem.
It would probably take a good deal of time to go through and fix all of the pages that are doing that, but I thought you'd want to know about it since you really doing a great service with your site and I'm sure you'd want the information to be easy to read for everyone. As for me, I just copy the entire page and paste it into Notepad and read it from there to prevent having to scroll back and forth. Yes. Keep up the great work and keep spreading the word. I wish you the best and good luck with your site and staying clean. I know you can do it!
Blessings,
Thanks for the compliments, Heather, and you have a good day too.
== Orange
Last updated 20 January 2013. |
