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Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2015 05:31:09 +0000 (UTC) (answered 13 January 2015.) Hey there orange. I stumbled upon your website a few years ago. You have definitely put an extreme amount of energy into it. there's some very interesting details too. for instance. Bill Wilson starting this thing all for the money. could quite possibly be. Personally, I think he started it in good faith, to help his fellow man refrain from abusing alcohol. But, as time went on, the money was too good to pass up. I am coming up on 2 years of continuous sobriety. I've been a life-long drunken wretch. I don't go to that many meetings. Actually I only go to one a week. I got to get to that low-bottom, indigent detox here in Orange County, CA. Perhaps the only free detox left in the world. It's the only place that has ever resonated with me. What works for me may not work for others and what works for them may not work for me. All I know is I don't want what I had so I'll keep doing what I've been doing. Have a great night and keep up the interesting information.
Hello Tim,
Congratulations on your years of sobriety. That is great. And yes, you
really don't want to lose what you have gained. Neither do I. Life is so
much better when you aren't chronically sick, isn't it?
Thanks for the question. And my answer — my best informed guess — is,
I think Bill Wilson was in it for the money from the very beginning.
Now Bill Wilson may have had some illusions about religion curing "alcoholism",
but he was still out for the money.
Then Wilson stole the copyright of the book and blackmailed the Alcoholic
Foundation into giving him royalties for life, which he was not entitled to at all,
since he was just contract labor, paid cash to write the opening chapters.
See:
Now maybe Bill Wilson actually believed, in some deluded moments,
that A.A. really worked and saved lives,
but I have serious doubts. At Dr. Bob's memorial service, he bragged about
how hard he and Dr. Bob had to work to get A.A. started:
If it was that hard to con a few alcoholics into "taking the bait", how many
could it have been saving? Bill Wilson wasn't totally blind to the implications
of what he was saying.
Oh well, have a good day now.
== Orange
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2015 19:29:30 +0000 (UTC) (answered 13 January 2015.) Thank you for your website exposing the AA/12 Steps program. In December 2014 I joined a 12 Step program modelled after the AA. The one I was attending in London was for sex addicts. It was just 32 days but it did not take me long to discover that something was wrong there. Yesterday 10 January 2015 I notified my sponsor that I would not continue the program. I told him that I have been giving a lot of thought to the entire thing and that I have made the decision of not continuing. I explained to him that during the short period that I stayed I found that it does not differ in many respect from the way cults and fundamentalist religions operate. I also told him that there are many things that are irrational and manipulative at the core of the program and for me it will be dishonest and against my integrity if I allow those things to dictate my life. I do not know what his response could have been (I notified him via email) but I hope it was a big blow to him. During the last week within the program he has been getting frustrated with me because the questions that I am supposed to write for him reveal that I have a lot negative things to say against the notion of God or a Greater Power. I told him of how dangerous it is to appeal to irrational things in order to conjure the concept of God in your heart and in your mind. I reminded him of how much abuse and disillusion I suffered 15 years ago when I was an evangelical christian. I told him that people who blindly believe in ideas like God is control or surrender your life to God, can cause a lot of damage specially when you discover that the good you are meant to have a relationship with "God" appears to be more like a uninterested, uncaring despot. Pointing out how ridiculous the whole God-thing/Greater Power and that in order to progress beyond Step 3 and 4 one has to show conviction of God really got him on his nerves. Not only that, when I used reason to point out such irrational things he would say to me that I am an argumentative person. When I told him 2 day ago that I discovered that Bill Wilson found more meaningful spiritual experiences with drugs than the spiritual experience he had with Christianity he was not happy and kept on telling me that I just like arguing. Any thing that I told him as the reasons why I found the program, its members, its concepts, its teaching, full of irrational people and ideas he could not accept. Instead he called me argumentative. Not only he was unreasonable in every way. He was a control freak without much compassion or understanding. While I was in the States for my holidays he knew I was visiting my family for Christmas. When I asked him at what time I should call him he demanded that I would call him most mornings at 5 am US eastern time which for him in London was 10 am. No fucking consideration for the fact. A despot who thought such regimes were part of a formation of character that according to their program I need to have reformed. He would rebuke me for not writing answers no longer that 1 or 2 A4 pages long. He would speak to me on the phone like I was a child when I told him some things about my personal affairs...... In other words. This guy is typifies the abusers that I met when I was involved with a cultish evangelical church. In at least one occasion he even got annoyed because I was putting my mother first and not other people within the fellowship. Not only my sponsor wanted such things. Another long standing member of the fellowship was giving me similar advice but his was worst. He wanted me to quit my job, ask my brother to take care of my mother and try to cut contact with her to as minimum as possible. According to him keeping in touch with my mother would lead to codependency which is for him another form of addiction that is also treated used the 12 Steps program. This advice was received after having met him only 20 minutes earlier. I am glad this nightmare only lasted 32 days. It has been only 24 hour and I feel the difference. Since I notified my sponsor that I was not going to continue I have had an enormous amount to peace. For the last month I have been living in a state of terror because I am about to lose my job, but for some strange reasons, having left the program seems to have had a subversive effect on me to the point that even problems that are not associated with my addiction are not overwhelming me like they did over the last few weeks. Once again, thank you for your website and I hope this email will be published too. Andrés
Hello Andrés,
Thank you for the letter, and your wish was granted.
Your letter was published immediately.
Not only that, but I'm adding it to the list of
A.A. Horror Stories.
It's just a classic example of the cult at work.
The first thing that I noticed in your description of how they treated you
was the constant put-downs. That's standard
ad hominem attacks,
in debating terms, and
Personal attacks on critics
in the Cult Test.
That's just what cults do. Rather than honestly answering questions and
criticism, they attack the speaker.
That reveals that they are incapable of defending their cult with facts and logic.
But of course not. The behavior of the cult is indefensible,
and its crazy dogma and beliefs are also indefensible and cannot stand up to
logical examination.
That, in turn, leads to:
You Can't Tell The Truth.
Heaven Forbid, you might break the spell by telling the truth.
Then you were supposed to believe all kinds of crazy things.
Yes, that is standard cult religion behavior.
Then you noticed that they were just as abusive as fundamentalist religious
evangelists. Yes, that is standard cult religion too.
What a small world it is.
Then you were supposed to be their obedient slave.
That's in the cult test too, in several ways:
(Oh by the way, you can flip-flop between the Cult Test questions and the answers for
A.A. by clicking on the numbers of the questions or answers.)
Then they finished with wanting to isolate you from your family.
You were supposed to write off your own mother and only associate with
other cult members.
That is standard cultish behavior, and everybody from Scientology to
the Moonies does it.
Oh well, thank Doorknob Almighty that you are free from their clutches now.
And have a good day.
== Orange
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2015 15:00:28 -0600 (answered 13 January 2015.) http://www.npr.org/2014/03/23/291405829/with-sobering-science-doctor-debunks-12-step-recovery Hello Orange, This article just came to my attention, and I thought you might enjoy reading it. I can only hope that more doctors and psychiatrists step up and realize what a farce AA is. Two and a half years clean, resentment free without AA!
Hello Chris,
Thank you for that link. That is encouraging.
It is especially good when doctors debunk 12-Step "treatment",
because they have more credibility than ordinary people.
Speaking of credibility, I am happy to see that the source of the story
is NPR — National Public Radio. They are also a credible information source.
I see that this web page is recommending a book by Dr. Lance Dodes.
John McC. recommended "The Sober Truth" by Lance Dodes, M.D., some time ago.
I'm really going to have to read that thing, right after I get moved into a new home, which will take a while.
This article is right on. I can only agree. A.A. harms more people than it helps. It is far from
the panacea that it pretends to be.
And congratulations on your own success. That is great. And it feels so
much better to be healthy, doesn't it?
So have a good day now.
== Orange
I have to comment on the current low price of oil. The TV news has been
telling stories about how oil companies in the USA have been shutting down
wells because the price of oil is down around $50 or $55 a barrel.
($45.89 on 2015.01.13.)
The oil business in Texas is in the doldrums.
They are shutting down wells and laying off people.
Yes, and that will continue for a while.
At these prices, it is no longer profitable to operate those
"leacher wells" that suck up the last few barrels of oil
from exhausted oil wells in the USA. Likewise, fracking and shale oil and tar sands
ventures have become unprofitable, so they are being forced to shut down.
They can't produce oil at a profit because the cost of production
is greater than the selling price of the oil.
What has happpened is that we have countries like Saudi Arabia producing
their maximum supply of oil while the demand for the oil has declined.
The poorest nations of the world simply could not afford oil at $110 or more
a barrel, so they simply went without. That was called "demand destruction".
The combination of demand destruction and high production drove the price of oil
down through the floor.
I can't say whether the Saudis are producing an oversupply and driving
the price of oil down deliberately to kill off the competition. Perhaps,
perhaps not. But what is certain is that the competition is getting
killed off.
However, such low prices will eventually increase the demand for oil.
The poor people of the world will be able to afford oil and gasoline
again, and they will start using it again.
And the American people will drive more, now that they can afford to drive
more. So the consumption of oil will gradually go up, and the supply will
become tight again, so the price of oil will go back up.
This was all predicted years ago by James H. Kunstler, who talked about
how the oil industry would get "whipsawed" by drastic price fluctuations
as the world adjusts to a post-peak-oil world. We will not see a straight-line
decline in supply as the world runs out of oil. We will have cycles
of tight supply and over-supply and high demand and low demand
as the industry goes through repeated shocks.
What is bad about this whipsawing is that it is now destroying all of the
alternative energy companies, and "other" means of producing oil
like small independent domestic producers. It is not profitable to
produce oil or energy by "other" means now, so those companies
are shutting down and going bankrupt.
They won't be around to supply more oil when the demand for oil goes
back up, and the price of oil goes back up.
And then investors will be very reluctant to get back into the oil business
where they just lost money, so the other ways of producing petroleum
and those other sources will remain dead until the price of oil really
goes up way higher. More whipsawing.
So the future will be cycles of high prices and low prices and high prices again.
And undersupply and oversupply and undersupply again.
And we will sort of stagger into the future, ill-prepared for that future,
without a rational energy policy. And with a ragged, debilitated oil industry.
(Incidentally, that makes the debate over the Keystone Pipeline a bit
of a joke, and more politics than good business.
The tar sands and shale oil industries that were going to produce oil
to go into the pipeline are shutting down because they can't produce oil
at a profit now.)
[ Link here =
http://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters424.html#Susan ]
Date: Jan 12, 2015, 5:11 PM (answered 17 January 2015.) Thank you for your reply. However, Orange, my emails to you aren't generally for public disclosure. But having said that, I think that Robin chose not to live with a debilitating disease. I am not sure I would, either, and I belong to an organization that supports the right to choose. That Robin went to a reunion weekend at his rehab doesn't seem to say much to me, either. I know many that make an annual visit. When his tox came back clean for drugs and alcohol, that seemed to cinch it for me. Robin had a good team of medical/psych care. I wouldn't be surprised if his pharms played a big part, given that they claim a higher risk of suicide as a side effect. We don't know anything about Audrey as of yet. I think it is a shame that the Sherie Maloy-Davis has had to field harsh criticisms for her friend's death. I have heard of similar cases of parents withholding medical care on any number of grounds, but that isn't what we have in the two instances above. These people chose their routes and one for sure included plenty of medical and mental care. The cases you site I thought tended to go along with the child's right to care and protection of a minor with inability to choose. I could be wrong. Sent from my iPad
Hello again, Susan,
About publishing your previous letter: You didn't say that you didn't want it published.
Also, the letter isn't about you and it doesn't describe any of your personal
experiences, and you aren't even using your real name. You are merely giving your
opinion of the death of Robin Williams, so it isn't like it is a violation of your
anonymity or privacy or something. Besides, what is the point in writing if you
don't want your opinion broadcast?
Alas, your letter seems long on opinions and short of facts.
For example, you say that Robin Williams
"had a good team of medical/psych care."
Where do you get that? Do you have any evidence or documentation for that statement?
And his "team" couldn't have been very good. How it is that his psychiatrist, if he
even had one, didn't notice that Robin Williams was so depressed that he was going
to commit suicide? I wouldn't call that a good psychiatrist.
What Robin Williams actually got was a true believer Stepper at the Hazelden Foundation,
who had him repeat Steps 4 and 5 again.
That isn't good medical or psychiatric care — that is terrible
guilt-inducing quackery.
Likewise, you claim that Robin Williams was taking medications that would increase
his tendency to commit suicide. What medications? Please be very specific. I've never
seen any published documents or statements from his family or doctor or pharmacist that
listed what medications Robin Williams was taking, so how do you know what medications
his doctor prescribed and what the dosage was?
It seems that you are merely trying to deflect blame away from the 12 Step
guilt-induction routine.
You don't have any interviews where Robin Williams said that he was very depressed
because of Parkinson's disease and life didn't seem like it was worth living any more, do you?
Nor do we have any comments from him about how his medications were messing with
his mind.
But we most assuredly do have at least one interview where he said that it was too
hard to live down all of the old garbage that the 12-Step routine was dredging up, and
I quoted it to you in the last letter. Here it is again:
See: Now do you have anything like that about Robin Williams' feelings about his Parkinson's Disease or the effects of his medications, or are you just wishing that he had said something like that? The fact that Robin Williams' tox screen came back clean is all the more reason to believe that depression, like depression exacerbated by the guilt-inducing Steps 4 and 5, and not medications, caused his death. I have no opinion on Audrey Kishline's suicide. I don't know enough about the last years of her life, or her death, to have formulated an opinion yet. Like I said in a previous letter, the one time that I met her, she just seemed like a very fragile soul who seemed to be overwhelmed by what had happened. Have a good day now. == Orange
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2015 12:38:20 -0800 (answered 17 January 2015.) By now, you've probably heard about Audrey Kishline's suicide. It's tragic whenever somebody kills themselves, but I feel no sadness about it. Let's not forget that Audrey Kishline killed 2 innocent people, one of them a child; scant attention is paid to that. She became a freakshow guest at AA meetings & the Dr. Phil show afterwards. Hell, she even wrote another book. I feel very bad for her mother, though. Audrey committed suicide in her mothers home-how nice of her. Let's not forget about Larry Froistad. In the late 90s, he confessed on MMs chatroom that he murdered his 5 year-old daughter. Of the 200 people in the chatroom, only 3 contacted the police; they were kicked out of the chatroom for doing that. Audrey Kishline herself helped cover it up — she didn't want MMs reputation damaged, you see. The hell with Audrey Kishline.
Hello Jim,
Thanks for the info about Audrey Kishline. I didn't know that stuff.
I'm still sort of suspending judgement of Kishline until I know more,
but what you have told me is not encouraging.
I'm especially appalled at the behavior of the chatroom. Of course
you contact the police in a situation like that. Just because somebody
chants, "What you hear here, stays here," before confessing to various crimes
doesn't mean that nobody can report those crimes.
Quite the opposite. People are legally required to report serious crimes, and
murdering a 5-year-old girl definitely qualifies.
The only sacred confessionals are sessions with priests and lawyers.
Not even doctors or psychiatrists are required to hide their patients'
crimes. They maintain medical confidentiality, but not criminal
confidentiality. In fact, they are required by law to notify the police
if they even think that a patient is going to commit a serious crime or
harm someone.
It's both funny and sad how A.A. has managed to twist the whole
recovery/counseling thing around to where they think that they have
the same legal privileges as priests and lawyers, which they do not have.
An A.A. sponsor or chatroom has no more legal privileges to confidentiality
than does your favorite astrologer or the local psychic hotline.
And likewise, the MM or other chatrooms don't have any special privileges either.
Oh well, have a good day anyway.
== Orange
[ Link here =
http://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters424.html#Chris_L ]
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2015 02:06:18 -0500 (answered 18 January 2015.) Hi Orange, I searched Google for american addiction centers after one of their commercials came on, just to see if they are being sued. I was led to believe that over some of the changes to the fine print regarding if the actors in commercials are counselors there over a long time of suffering their commercials. Unfortunately I think it's just that some of the counselors they hire are "selfish"in that that they will not do things they know are wrong for 12 steps and Bill Wilson. I did find this too however http://www.malibubeachrecoveryblog.com/health-insurance-companies/horror-stories/ I thought Obamacare had put some pressure on rehabs to use evidence based treatment but maybe not. Now anthem just sends you a $10,000 check and hopes you go give it to steppers so you can be brainwashed and misguided? That whole Malibu blog is so crazy it sends chills down my spine but they are in it for the money. It's a crying shame that stepper ideology and legacy is more important than anyone's life and the people that get involved in 12 step don't seem to realize that. The AA circle and triangle has always offended me. My first thought was that the circle means forever and the triangle is meant to mean me. Marlboro cigarettes have a triangle on the box which must be connected to their whole Marlboro man type of advertising they had. I don't know.... Egyptians buried their kings in pyramids.
Chris L
Hello Chris,
Thanks for the letter and the link.
About:
Yeh, I don't know about that. The Paul Wellstone Act for "increased access to mental health
care" was supposed to have a clause that required that "treatment" for the "mental illness
of alcoholism" was supposed to be evidence-based and proven effective, but that clause
doesn't seem to have been enforced.
The Steppers shanghaied the Paul Wellstone Act for access to more money.
Actually, everybody shanghaied that act for more money.
Remember the $700 billion bailout for Wall Street back in 2006?
After Congress — the House of Representatives — refused to vote more money for
bailing out bankrupt Wall Street gambling houses,
the bribed Senators did an end run around the law.
There is a Constitutional rule that
all appropriations bills must originate in the House.
The Senate cannot write and pass spending bills by itself.
So they took the Paul Wellstone Act that was intended to fund mental
health care (and covertly fund Alcoholics Anonymous) that had already been passed by
the House, and appended a small addition to it, just a mere
$700 billion for Wall Street, and passed that bill.
Then the House finally approved that version of the Paul Wellstone Act.
Hey Presto! Wall Street crooks got $700 billion, and
12-Step counselors can now claim that they should get paid by everybody's health plan.
It's one thing to say that mentally-ill people should get good treatment from their health
care plan. I agree with that statement.
It's another thing to say that all alcoholics and drug addicts are mentally ill.
Now many are, but that needs to be diagnosed and established.
And if they are indeed mentally ill, then they should be treated by real doctors with
real medical treatment, not by true believer nutcases who parrot the slogans of
an old cult religion from the nineteen-thirties.
The solution I see is to demand that the treatment programs prove their actual effectiveness in valid
Randomized Longitudinal Controlled Studies.
That has never happened, and I don't expect it to ever happen, because 12-Step treatment doesn't work.
Unfortunately, the Federal Food and Drug Administration tests medicines, but not treatments.
So the FDA won't be busting the "addiction treatment centers" for fraud.
So, everybody, time to put some pressure on your Senators and Congressmen,
and demand that quackery not be funded. Make the so-called "treatment
providers" prove that they are actually providing good effective treatment.
Don't let the quacks suck billions of dollars out of our health care system while
harming more addicts than they help.
The New York Times reported that "rehab" is a $20 billion per year business, and the
National Treatment Center in Atlanta, George,
conducted another survey and reported that 75% of the "treatment centers"
in the USA still use 12-Step treatment, so that's $15 billion for the 12-Step quacks.
That is a whole lot of quackery, and there is lots of money to be made in failing to cure addicts.
Yes, there ought to be a law. In fact, I think there is a law, but it isn't being enforced.
Yes. On top of that, I think they deliberately blind themselves to the obvious contradictions.
It's an open question whether they believe what they are saying.
They seem to have the ability to repeat slogans without even thinking about the obvious
implications of what they are saying. It's like "double-think" as described by
George Orwell in his chilling novel "1984".
For example,
when I got "treatment" from
the Central City Concern "PAAC" (Portland Alternative Addiction Center),
I got a "counselor" who jabbered slogans at us like,
"You need a Higher Power" in your recovery program", "Your disease wants to kill you,"
"I am teachable today. I don't know if I will relapse tomorrow."
He spent the day allegedly teaching us how to live clean and sober, and then
he went home and in the evening snorted cocaine and looked at child pornography
on his computer, and then raped his step-children
— raped for real: the police busted him and the court convicted him of 2 counts
of criminal sexual penetration of a minor, along with possession of cocaine and
child pornography.
Now the question in my mind is, "Did he really believe that stuff about a
Higher Power?"
What kind of "Higher Power" is compatible with raping children?
What use is having a Higher Power in your recovery program if that is what happens?
And when he said, "I don't know if I will relapse tomorrow", is that code language for,
"I relapse every day now, so it is highly likely that I will relapse tomorrow too"?
Inquiring minds want to know.
The one thing that I am sure of is that such criminal behavior is not good medical treatment.
But Central City Concern didn't bother to give back the money when we learned what the
treatment amounted to. Nope, the Oregon Health Plan paid $1700 per person for us to
get "group therapy" from a coke-snorting child rapist and they didn't get their money
back when the treatment turned out to be a hoax. (Hey, it was still "treatment".
The "clients" still got lectured and sent to A.A. meetings.)
We were just talking about the circle-and-triangle symbol again.
We still haven't figured
out exactly what it is supposed to mean, if anything. I think that I've heard all of the new
explanations, like that the three points of the triangle stand
for "HOW" — "Honesty, Openmindedness, Willingness." But I
think that the original idea was something like copying the pyramid with the
eye on the dollar bill. I don't know for sure. Does anybody?
Have a good day now.
== Orange
From: "orange@orange-papers.info"
Hello Bonnie,
Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2015 02:44:09 +0000 (UTC) (answered 18 January 2015.) You are so welcome. I get a huge kick out of your Papers. I wanted to donate small to start in case it got lost, know what I mean? I am one of the 5% that got sober on my own. Spontaneous remission I think is what you called it. Got sick and tired of being sick and tired. Also had to kick the physical dependency, not fun times. It was like the bar lights went out: "Bar's closed, you're done." Then I was diagnosed with liver cancer. Stayed sober. Had the surgery, stayed sober. Cancer came back, stayed sober. Was referred to the Liver Donor Program because of the liver damage and the recurring cancer. Stayed sober. Then, almost a year into my sobriety, the UW said I had to go to Intensive Outpatient Treatment and attend two AA meetings a week until transplant. Sheesh! IOP, what a freakin' racket!! And AA, whoo boy! The good news is that staying sober has improved my health tremendously. No surprise there, right? Still in the Donor Program cuz cancer is the wild card but I don't have a Listing cuz I'm too healthy for a transplant now. Woot woot!! I started visiting your website around this time cuz I couldn't believe what I was hearing. Thank you so much for your perspective. I appreciate all your documentation. I'm a stickler for that. I still attend meetings and I have learned to take what works for me and leave the rest there. It's not all bad if one keeps their head screwed on straight. I'm considered a rebel there but I like to think of myself as the voice of sanity amidst all the crap. I'm not a 12-stepper and I think Wilson should have been thrown in jail. Dr. Bob, too, for his malpractice. I don't have an active sponsor, nor do I need one. I don't have cravings or the daily fight to not drink. So I do not allow AA the credit for my sobriety. I have to be there if I want the choice of a transplant should I need one.
Keep up the good work, sir. Kudos!
Hello Bonnie,
Thanks for the letter and I hope you are doing well.
(I won't bore you with obvious platitudes like, "Take care of yourself.")
And congratulations on your "spontaneous remission". Yes, when you get sick and
tired of being sick and tired, it's over. Thank goodness.
Good luck on the transplant. Fortunately, that is one bullet that I managed to dodge.
It's rather amazing how my liver is still unharmed. (Well, actually, the doctor didn't
100% agree. He poked his finger into my belly and said that the liver was enlarged. But
apparently not too much.)
Thanks for the thanks. Yes, I try to collect facts like how other people collect coins
or postage stamps.
You sound like a good member of
the Newcomers Rescue League.
That is an honorary society of sane, good-hearted people who go to A.A. meetings to spread
a little truth and save the newcomers from the crazy sponsors.
Welcome to the club.
And have a good day and a good life now.
== Orange
Last updated 25 January 2015. |
