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Date: Sat, 31 May 2014 23:54:39 (answered 6 June 2014, at 6:08 PM)
Hi Orange, I don't know if you'd be willing to take any submissions for http://www.orange-papers.info/orange-links.html, but my forum username is thirteenthree and you may have picked up that some of these "na chatrooms" are run by skirt chasers, nutters, and abusive SOB's. I'm involved in (namely, created ) a new one @ www.na-chat.com . To make a long story short there are five "different" ones that have had the same power structure for 10 or more years and its time for a change. I've been a regular reader of your site for years now so hope you don't take me for a drive by spammer. The new site at www.na-chat.com attempts to use automation for online NA meetings which will make chairing the meeting more accessible to casual users. Up until now, participation in "service" was limited to a small group of insiders with a complicated mIRC installation using custom scripts (which meant Windows users only) and the number of people versed in installing or supporting that sort of thing has been dwindling. We're trying to upset a longstanding and nasty paradigm. I'm in it for the long haul whether you think its worthy of a link or not, but I will try my very best to do good things and not be a true nutjob fanatic to those who come to visit us. Regards, -Rob / thirteenthree @ orange-papers btw see my (only?) 2 posts for details on why i may have undertaken such a task :)
Hello Robert,
Yes, I'm interested in what you are doing and might put a link on my web page of links.
[ Link here = http://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters405.html#Robert_G2 ]
Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2014 18:32:54 (answered 11 June 2014) Hi Orange, We're at na-chat.org and it's been a rough start — the owners of the other site keep filing false DMCA complaints trying to get it taken down and I'm already in trouble with NAWS so I'm clearly doing something right. :) Have you gotten any complaints from AA or NA about things you've posted or linked to? NA had a howling fit about me directly serving their Basic Text (despite them formerly hosting it on na.org and even explicitly stating groups may reproduce or redistribute it) and it's tempting to take them on but it would indeed be a distraction to what I'm really trying to do. I know you can't give legal advice per se but I'm sure you've gotten a nasty letter or two from them. Thanks, -Rob / thirteen three Sent from my iPhone
Hello again, Rob,
Oh, you did so tell me the URL before, twice. Sometimes I'm just blind.
So it goes.
Congratulations on getting your web site up and running. And yes, I'll give you a link.
And a plug in the letters section too. I wish you luck. Anybody who is trying to tone
down the insanity deserves some thanks.
I've never been hassled by the A.A. headquarters. Never had any official letter from them.
Of course I have received countless letters from the 20- and 30-year true believers who
call me all kinds of names, but I've never received any communications from the A.A.
organization. I think they are trying hard to pretend that I don't exist.
The thing with A.A. is that the copyright on the Big Book is invalid for three
reasons, and I can prove that in a court of law. If they took me to court and it came
to that, they could lose all revenues from the Big Book anywhere in the world.
No royalties from the foreign countries where the local A.A. organizations have been
conned into paying royalties to New York for an out-of-copyright book.
The A.A. Big Book has no valid copyright for three reasons:
Also, what Bill Wilson was copyrighting was not the first publication of the book,
which Federal copyright law requires. It's on the form below.
The uncopyrighted multilith printing was the first publishing,
so the Big Book could not be legally copyrighted.
So the copyright was fraudulent and invalid again.
The only thing that they can claim a copyright on is the new stories added to the third
and fourth editions.
The sacred first 164 pages of the Big Book are in the public domain.
All of the first- and second-edition stories are in the public domain.
So are the 12 Steps and the 12 Traditions.
The second edition of the Big Book
contains both The Twelve Steps and The Twelve Traditions, so both have unquestionably
been in the public domain since at least 1983.
So there simply is no valid copyright on the A.A. Big Book,
and they don't dare to take a case to court, because an offical court ruling
will destroy a big part of their income.
None of the foreign countries will need to pay any more royalties.
All of the foreign copyrights are based on the USA copyright.
The whole house of cards will fall.
The situation with the Narcotics Anonymous book is different. I think they learned
from Bill Wilson's screw-ups and didn't make the same mistakes.
Legally, it's a very interesting situation when they invite the public to pass the message
on and reprint their book freely, and then they complain when you do it.
I think that a good case could be made that you were merely complying with their request.
I don't think that they could win a case just because they don't like your comments.
Once someone publicly declares that they are donating the copyright to the public domain,
which is what their statements do, then it's a done deal and they cannot later
take it back. Technically, they don't own the copyright after they give it away
to the public domain,
so they cannot claim ownership of it and use it to dictate who may publish what.
At least, I'm pretty sure that they can't.
Of course, this is a good time for a copyright lawyer to chime in with his or her opinion.
Good luck with your project, and have a good day now.
== Orange
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 2014 11:14:58 (answered 16 June 2014) Hi Orange / Terry I just had the pleasure of catching up with your interview with monica on Blog Talk Radio, I'm using her radio shows as part of my deprogramming and I just wanted to tell you how much I appreciate what you do. If I can find your paypal link I will donate.
Hi Rebecca,
Thanks for the compliments and the thanks. And support is always appreciated.
However, after two days I've had to duck out of the forum, I'm finding it a bit scary — some very strident posters and some abusive messages (one guy told me to kiss his dick for e.g.). There seems to be an awful lot of infighting and some pages I clicked on took me to the AA website as I think someone redirected the links?
Yes, there was a problem with that. Fortunately, it has been fixed.
The one and only rule that I enforce on the forum is "No personal attacks
on others." Alas, every so often someone just won't refrain from attacks,
so I'm reluctantly forced to block them from any more posting.
Another one went away today.
And who told you to kiss his dick? He's gone. Can you give me a link to
the message? Thanks.
I know you run the forum but without mods or an internet link at home but it's a bit too much like the wild west for me, I kinda wish I hadn't shared so much personal information and Jennifer the Al Anon woman has emailed me privately to say she's left too. So I'm bowing out of there but will continue to use your very excellent website. Fortunately in the UK Al Ateen has to use DBS (Disclosure and Barring service) checks for any adults around kids (although the service would only turn up any convictions). I don't think that applies to teenagers going to AA or NA or people taking their kids to meetings. I hope that the more sane and moderate people will come back when the attackers are gone.
If you had time to comment on my thyroid story to me I'd be grateful. Having listened to something on Monica's show about how addiction medicine / the disease model does not practice evidence based medicine it struck me that the parallels with thyroid medicine are identical. Thyroid medicine is also a joke. This seems to be the case in many medical disciplines where money can be made, committee stacking, drug company funding etc etc. I've been shafted both ways by the addiction industry, and then the thyroid industry. If you were interested you could look at Thanks again, Rebecca
--
Okay, I'll check that out.
You have a good day too.
== Orange
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2014 07:02:20 (answered 17 June 2014) Hi, I just wanted to thank you for your website. I am a recovered alcohol, heroin and meth addict. Yes, I said recovered! I refuse to say it in the present tense. I am also a very good, chemical dependency counselor that does not rely on the 12 steps or AA in any way to help my clients to stay sober. In fact, I also believe in harm reduction....if a heroin addict, eventually "just smokes weed" and does not put themselves in danger by IV drug use anymore I consider that a success. I am extremely controversial and have been called "radical" by my counterparts. I loved your research on this website. I guess after reading about Bill Wilson's sex addiction, it is no wonder men use AA meetings as a place to take advantage of unsuspecting new comers. I was especially blown away by your check list of cults. THe only point on there I questioned was whether or not Bill WIlson ever made any money on AA or if in fact the traditions prevented him from doing so. I am sure my thinking that way is part of my own brain washing on that subject. Anyway, I appreciate you, you have courage and can think outside the box and do a hell of a good job proving your hypothesis.
Warmly, PS~ I am sure you receive a lot of hate mail from 12 stepper everywhere. LOL
Hello Kathleen,
Thank you for the letter and the compliments. And thank you for the good
work that you are doing. And yes, I get my fair share of hate mail.
In answer to your question, yes, Bill Wilson
made out like a bandit. In fact, he was a bandit. He died a millionaire, rich with
money stolen from A.A.:
But that was just the tip of the iceberg. Money disappeared left and right. It looks
like Bill might have taken as much as $8394.62.
That is money that disappeared from the publishing fund and went somewhere.
Multiply that by 11.8148 to translate it into year 2000 dollars,
and that is $99,180.76. Not a bad haul for a down-and-out alcoholic.
Maybe that explains how he could drive a Lincoln while he was
"unemployed and dead broke."
This is all explored and calculated in the file
This is documented in the file
Birth of BigBook.
By the way, the copyright was actually invalid because Bill Wilson stupidly voided it.
I just covered that in a previous letter, here:
Bill Wilson had the audacity to demand that the A.A. headquarters pay his favorite mistress
Helen Wynne directly, and Bill was furious when the Board of Trustees told Bill
to pay his mistresses
himself. Bill had his will rewritten so that Helen got 10% of his estate (all of
those royalties) and his wife got the other 90%.
Then Bill had the nerve to make out like he was a poor starving guy who sacrificed
everything to be of service to alcoholics, and got nothing in return:
Oh well, have a good day now.
== Orange
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2014 20:13:16 (answered 17 June 2014) Hello friend, This e-mail is in regards to your "Bibliography" page at: http://www.orange-papers.info/orange-bibliography.html, particularly that section on The Little Red Book, which reads, in part:
The Little Red Book Hazelden staff I don't intend to try to change your mind on anything related to A.A., or argue any point about the benefits of it's program, or the lack there of. You're entitled to feel any way you want on the subject, and I certainly respect that. In fact, I quite enjoy some of the articles on your site. I merely wish to provide you with a few facts regarding The Little Red Book, so that you may have the correct information on your bibliography page, should you care to. For the sake of historical accuracy, I submit the following to you: The Little Red Book (of A.A.) was first published as An Interpretation of the Twelve Steps of the Alcoholics Anonymous Program in 1946. Due probably to this unwieldy title, and to the fact that it was a small book in a red binding, it was nicknamed "the little red book" and was re-titled such in 1949. Quotations from Chairman Mao Tse-tung (also informally referred to as "the little red book") was published for the first time in 1964, 15 years after the A.A. book was re-released under the title. So the A.A. book could not possibly be a clone, as you suggest, because it is impossible to copy a book that does not exist. The simple fact is that both were small books in a red binding. That they both arrived at same informal nickname is nothing more than coincidence; an example of the human tendency to give things the simplest possible name. -Ben K.
Hello Ben,
Thanks for the correction. I like to get every little detail correct.
And yes, that needs correcting. I had not realized that Mao's Little Red Book
was published so late. Mao could have copied the style of Hazelden's book.
Actually, I think that they both copied the standard dogmatic style of a cult
that worships a guru.
A.A. worships Bill Wilson, and the Red Chinese worshipped Mao. Both were cults
built around the personality of a charismatic leader.
And both quoted their leader as if he was a wise man with good advice and wisdom
to dispense, which neither of them had.
Have a good day now.
== Orange
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2014 17:58:25 (answered 24 June 2014) discovered your site about a month ago & have been reading the entire thing voraciously since. i've been addicted to smack for about five years & am trying to quit at the moment, went to my first 'real' NA meeting a month ago [had been to one five years ago when i was writing a paper for a journalism about recovery programs, didn't have a drug problem at the time although i was enjoying a variety of substances recreationally] & was at the same time inspired by the speaker's ability to move beyond her addiction & get a life yet put off by the whole powerlessness concept, which i had written critically of in the aforementioned paper i did about recovery groups. had also read jeffrey schaler's "addiction is a choice" which i find is spot on pretty much in everything he says [though the idea that heroin addicts cease to go through withdrawal when injected with saline if they think it's heroin is difficult to believe in — wish he'd provided more context for that idea, bc heroin withdrawal is a very PHYSICAL thing & i can't see how mind over matter is going to overcome that. anyway regarding the 12 step cult, the girl who facilitates the first meeting i went to as an actual addict rather than a reporter continues to text me every morning despite my having informed her straight up that i think NA is a cult & i do not agree with the powerlessness/god/confession/proselytizing elements of the Program. she was insistent on sponsoring me [as was another girl from another meeting this first girl goes to] until i told her i was an atheist, but then immediately suggested some woman i've never met who is apparently an agnostic, even going so far as to give me her number. because i'd totally love to be sponsored by someone i've never met! i was forced into outpatient rehab after failing a drug test when i was first put on probation 8 years ago...was doing coke rather frequently though was not addicted & just didn't know i was going to be tested hence the uh mishap. anyway got forced into outpatient rehab [while i was in college & very busy] at a place that strongly emphasized people do NA/AA meetings, which was actually the impetus for me to write the recovery article since i was majoring in journalism...needless to say after one NA meeting i was out the door being pursued by creepy dudes trying to give me their numbers [19 year olds are fresh meat, i suppose] & when it was recommended to me that i go back to those meetings i firmly declined. when it was coming up to my 6 month graduation, during which time i had not drank or done any drugs of the sort that show up on drug tests [yay lsd!] my counselor faked a positive test for alcohol & informed me i was going to go to inpatient treatment or jail. i was terrified, not only because my parents had no idea that this was going on but because i had not drank & at that point had nothing that could be considered a drug problem, plus things were going very well in my life, had a straight-a average, playing in a band, etc. i was told i'd be going someplace upstate new york, they gave me the address & everything to tell my family [which i didn't because i was still terrified of them finding out, but i did tell my boyfriend as he was very concerned]. a van picked me up from the outpatient facility, drove all over queens picking up other people, then ends up somewhere on long island [ie NOT UPSTATE] where we're all theoretically going to stay. my protestations of Well I Was Supposed To Go Somewhere Else are met with silence, & my suitcase full of books is eyed angrily & i'm told i will not be allowed to keep any of these books with me [great, 28 days & all we get is tv & propaganda? maybe if the patient is an amoeba...]. i then asked to use the phone [had written down a few emergency numbers in my notebook] & was refused. had my vital signs taken a bunch of times, asked a bunch of questions about my 'drug history' [which at that point was not much, as mentioned before i had not done any coke, alcohol, etc etc (had never done smack at that time aside from two mistaken attempts thinking it was coke & those were mostly spent vomiting) & there was really nothing to document] but after being told my insurance wouldn't cover most of it & i'd have to pay 300$/day which i totally did not have my body saved me by having a panic attack — the nurse told me to go home & go to the hospital because clearly i was Withdrawing From Drugs, hur hur hur...fortunately my probation officer believed me & i didn't go to jail. the idea of a month in zombieland with no books or music to distract me was successful to cause total body distress. i remember dancing and singing along to david bowie on my mp3 player the entire way home...which was two buses & three subway transfers...in retrospect i'm glad they didn't drive me upstate because that would have been rather difficult to get home from. still, couldn't shake the idea that they were just going to kill me & dump my body in a lake. did have to go through another 6 months of outpatient rehab but fortunately this facility was much more enlightened & my counselor realized my main problem was depression not drugs & referred me to a psychiatrist. i made it out alive but it pisses me off how many people get sucked into this system & can't do anything about it. your site is awesome. please keep up the good work. ciao Disembodied Cat Head P.S.: (i should add — about six months after my former counselor at the 12-step-pushing place tried to have me kidnapped, i saw her on the subway & she turned white as if she had just seen a ghost...i just smiled at her & went to work...sorry bitch you didn't succeed in ruining my life...i still believe she faked the test because i would not embrace the 12 step/addict-for-life philosophy like everyone else in my "group" — i remember i mentioned stealing a sandwich from starbucks because i was broke & really hungry & they all admonished me severely — never mind that i weighed about 95 pounds at the time & really needed to be eating regularly — somehow a large corporation's profit margins are far more important than me receiving adequate nutrition. but somehow that was drug-related thinking. hell, i never stole drugs...not sure where the connection is. at least in the last year of being hooked on smack i've managed to hold down two jobs & don't have to steal food anymore, but still, it's a waste of time & energy & i want to get out & travel — i figure i will just take a week's vacation from work this coming week & quit for good — have tried it with people babysitting me & that never works because as soon as the babysitter is gone the Lizard Brain goes & does her thing...) [sorry for being really long winded — i've never really told The Whole Story to anyone at once i guess] -Disembodied Cat Head
Hello Disembodied Cat Head,
Thank you for the letter and the story. I think that qualifies as a
real horror story. I'm adding it to
the list of A.A. horror stories.
That is not the first time that I've heard about faked drug and alcohol
test results. At one of the rehab housing buildings where a friend
lives, the rumor was that the staff kept one obviously-using junky in the
building so that they could come up with dirty urine any day of the
week. Then they could swap samples with someone else to make the
other person fail a drug and alcohol test. That way, they could get
rid of anyone that they wished to evict, for any reason, at any time.
Or get them into trouble and manipulate them any way that they wished.
Once again, the "rehab industry" appears to be little more
than organized crime.
Speaking of crime, what they did to you — taking you someplace against
your will — is called fraud and kidnapping.
They said that they were going to take you to a place upstate, and then
they really took you someplace else, and refused to take you to
the original destination. That is lying and fraud and kidnapping.
Kidnapping is punishable by death. Now I know that the local DA would
never go for the death penalty in such a case, but it is a prosecutable
offense. I think that you should report that crime to the police.
I realize that you probably don't feel comfortable with police,
but still, if nobody ever reports what kind of a racket they are
running, then they will be free to do it to someone else again.
And again and again.
Have a good day, and a good life now.
== Orange
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2014 15:25:31 (answered 24 June 2014) I 100% agree with your article. South Park did a tremendous job of showing the truth in the episode "Bloody Mary" if you haven't seen it. I was forced by Florida court order to attend AA as well as through the navy after my DUI in 2006. I didn't quit drinking, I quit drinking and driving, and have no problems since. I have experienced what you wrote on several occasions and have presented myself as proof that control and thought can prevail where thinly veiled religion fails. Again, thank you for that wonderful article. Jason
Hello Jason,
Thanks for the letter, and thanks for the thanks. I'm glad to hear
that you are doing well and that things are looking up for you.
I also love that South Park episode ["Bloody Mary", Season 9, Episode 14], and I watch
it again every so often for giggles and grins. It's the funniest spoof
of A.A. that I've ever seen.
—
"Nobody is in charge. We are all powerless here." — "You have a disease."
— "I would have quit long ago but for this
damned disease. Bring me another beer."
— "Make way, make way! Alcoholic coming through!"
See:
http://www.southparkstudios.com/full-episodes/s09e14-bloody-mary
Have a good day now.
== Orange
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2014 06:11:34 (answered 24 June 2014) Hi Terry, Hope you are well. I've really been enjoying the recent letters in The Orange Papers ~ great stuff. Unfortunately, I feel I must forward you this sad story from my local paper. There's no control, no oversight...its buyer beware in these programs:
Hello again, Bill,
Thanks for the link. It just goes on and on, doesn't it?
The idea that any old addict or alcoholic will make a good counselor
is insane.
You might as well go to your local prison or mental hospital to
get sponsors. Oh, wait! That is just what they do.
Oh well, have a good day now.
== Orange
Last updated 6 November 2014. |
