[ Link here = http://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters402.html#James_R ]

Date: Tue, 20 May 2014 08:42:20     (answered 23 May 2014)
From: james r.
Subject: No Subject

Given his education, (which was minimal) he did his best... trouble is, that best is no longer applicable given the vast amount of research devoted to "alcoholism". Many cult leaders who truly desire to help are handicapped by their own demons.

thanks Orange! for exposing an unfortunate side of the human nature due to ignorance-gone-wild. About 10% of the program is very good advice...but...swallowing the rest is unacceptable. AA will only prevail if the true experience of those in the NOW are reflected and discussed reasonably ....on a daily basis if necessary. AA is long overdue for a complete overhaul. Peace...

Hello James,

Thanks for the letter, and thanks for the thanks. I assume that you are of course talking about the leader of A.A., William G. Wilson. Yes, his education was very minimal, and yet he passed himself off as an expert on everything from theology, religion, and spiritual experiences to human nature to alcohol abuse and addictions. Bill Wilson was both a high school flunk-out and a college flunk-out. Bill had to repeat his senior year of high school in order to graduate, and then he had less than two years at Norwich University, a small military academy, when he enlisted in the U.S. Army to avoid flunking out of that college.

And still, he had no problem with pontificating on every subject from God and religion to mental health to recovery from alcohol addiction.

It reminds me of an article that came up a while back: "Unskilled and Unaware of It." The idea is that the more incompetent a person is in any particular area, the less qualified they are to assess their own skills and knowledge in that area, and the more likely they are to guess that they are really smart in that area:

The more incompetent someone is in a particular area, the less qualified that person is to assess anyone's skill in that space, including their own. When one fails to recognise that he or she has performed poorly, the individual is left assuming that they have performed well. As a result, the incompetent will tend to grossly overestimate their skills and abilities.
== "Unskilled and Unaware of It", Alan Bellows, March 25, 2006
http://www.damninteresting.com/?p=406

== Orange

*             orange@orange-papers.info        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     The common dogma [of fundamentalists] is fear of modern knowledge,
**     inability to cope with the fast change in a scientific-technological
**     society, and the real breakdown in apparent moral order in recent
**     years.... That is why hate is the major fuel, fear is the cement of
**     the movement, and superstitious ignorance is the best defense against
**     the dangerous new knowledge. ... When you bring up arguments that cast
**     serious doubts on their cherished beliefs you are not simply making a
**     rhetorical point, you are threatening their whole Universe and their
**     immortality.  That provokes anger and quite frequently violence. ...
**     Unfortunately you cannot reason with them and you even risk violence
**     in confronting them. Their numbers will decline only when society
**     stabilizes, and adapts to modernity.
**         ==  G. Gaia

[ Link here = http://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters402.html#Simon_C ]

Date: Wed, 21 May 2014 15:39:25     (answered 25 May 2014)
From: Simon C.
To: Agent Orange
Subject: Roman Numerals

Hello Terrance,

My AA sponsor* told me that if I kept taking my anti-pedantry medication I couldn't call myself properly sober. Therefore I'm here to tell you that 400 is usually represented by the Roman numerals CD, although I think there is some disagreement on this.

Keep up the wonderful work.

Simon

*I'm only joking of course. I've not been to an AA meeting or had a sponsor for about 5 years now. Surprisingly, I'm doing fine on my own.

Hello Simoh,

Thanks for the tip and the laugh. You are quite right of course. That change in the Roman numerals just kind of snuck up on me without me noticing. I had forgotten about D=500. The rule I learned about Roman numerals is that you shouldn't have 4 of anything in a row. Thus 4 is IV, not IIII, and 400 is CD, not CCCC.

Roman numerals are really such a bother. No wonder the Romans never produced a math genius. With 20-20 hindsight, I regret ever having started using Roman numerals. They may seem stylish, but they are a bother.

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             orange@orange-papers.info        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
*
**     Drunkenness is nothing but voluntary madness.
**       ==  ATTRIBUTION: Seneca (c. 5-65), Roman writer, philosopher,
**           statesman. Epistulae ad Lucilium, epistle 83, sct. 18.
*
**     The Holy Roman Empire was neither holy, nor Roman nor an Empire.
**       ==  Voltaire (1694 — 1778)
*
**     I've been hearing about the imminent Fall of Rome all of my
**     life.  No matter what happens, somebody opines that this is
**     how the Fall of Rome started. Like, "Giving welfare or
**     unemployment compensation to poor unemployed people is just
**     like giving free bread and circuses to the mob in Rome.
**     That started the downfall of the Roman Empire."
**     Never mind the fact that unemployment compensation is not
**     at all like free bread and cicuses, and the real causes
**     of the downfall of Rome were a lot of other things like the
**     flooding of the silver mine in Spain that supplied the silver
**     coins to pay the Roman Army. When they were not paid, the
**     Roman soldiers deserted, and the Vandals and the Goths
**     raided Rome.

May 25, 2014, Sunday, the Fernhill Wetlands at Forest Grove: Pelicans taking off [More bird photos below, here.]

[The previous letter from Gamine_H is here.]

[ Link here = http://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters402.html#Gamine_H ]

Date: Thu, 22 May 2014 22:02:18     (answered 26 May 2014)
From: Gamine H.
To: orange@orange-papers.info
Subject: Gamine Reply

Hi. Even though your article is ridiculous I didn't have to antagonize you in the letter. I apologize for that.

I read and responded to everything via my phone because I don't have the web at home so I also apologize for bad format and error.

AA blew up bigger and bigger for 60 years, its huge and has millions of sober recovered members worldwide but you say it doesn't work and has no success rate. If the steps don't work then why are these people recovered and continue to attend, and more groups pop up?

Have you ever been to aaAgnostica.org? Bill W, whether AA central likes it or not left AA wide open for atheists. He says so in AA Comes of Age. Yes, he toed the religious line (just like everyone does in modern America) but the steps are suggested and atheists who cease resenting the religiosity can fund them useful. You make Bill out to be a Manson figure and AA a cult. This can't be further from the truth.

Shame on Bill and shame on AA for what? For having genuine concern for alcoholics and wanting to help? Seriously dude, what do you expect? Dogma and religion fills every crevasse of Americana and you throw a tantrum over it and start a website that likely convinces people to keep drinking when some could of got sober in AA. Youve bent up and warped what AA is, a place that helps. Each group is autonomous so they can't control the evils of society getting it.

For someone who supposedly has over a decade of sobriety you seem to be stuck on having sand in your pants over AA who really just want to help.

There are high bottom drunks in AA, they didn't need skid row, a divorce or jail time to quit drinking, a bottom is reached when people stop digging.

I empathize with you over the imperfections of dogma and Christianity plaguing us all....believe me. I've literally read all the atheist authors especially Sam Harris. I drank hard at them and eventually slit my throat and almost bled to death.

From: Gamine H.
To: orange@orange-papers.info
Subject: Gamine 2
Date: Thu, 22 May 2014 22:25:03     (answered 26 May 2014)

Seriously, I made an attempt on my life because I couldn't stand to live amongst a species so hell bent on believing bullshit. I'm more Atheist than many and fucking hate faith and prayer and religions clinch on rational progress.

You know what, there's others like me in AA. I worked the program and the damn thing works without a higher power. Xtian AA's can whine, say I did it wrong etc...many of them go back out, ol timers can bitch too...old people whine about kids across the spectrum of life not just AA.

Maybe a dry drunk IS someone who can stay sober but just continues to be a dick. Funny how the steps, even without God send a message of policing our motives and being of use to others. Us atheists can't agree more that ethics are admirable and that we should display them.

I just don't get what you're so sore about? That you'll waste time writing that shit when its obvious you're a terrible writer with a giant knot in your panties over some religious folk who actually help. Have you not noticed that the entire nation is a cess pool of jesus lovers? Even our money says in god we trust so newsflash buddy, get over it, you're letting it consume you.

Have fun being miserable and angry and powerless over our theocracy. AA is a series of autonomous groups not a cash crop of 12 step facilities. The papers getting signed from judges aren't authenticated by a court official! Those idiots that come know that.

Also, I get the feeling that you take antidepressants and/or other drugs because you defend them so ambitiously. Guess what, if you are, and judging from your ranting shit writing, you're an addict in denial abusing drugs.

I'm not a doctor huh? It doesn't take an MD to see that 100 years ago and for mellinia before that, people lived awfully uncomfortable lives without ever swallowing a vitamin. Now there is literally a pill, affecting the circadian rhythm in blind people to help them know...

Date: Thu, 22 May 2014 22:32:16     (answered 26 May 2014)
From: Gamine H.
To: orange@orange-papers.info
Subject: gamine 3

To help blind folks know when bedtime is. Are you kidding me Orange? Do you even know what malingering is? If you don't think it applies to millions of Americans than you're plain ignorant. These people with all the conveniences of modern life aren't fucking depressed, give me a break and get honest. They sure aa shit don't need mood altering substances to cope with their over indulgent western lives, their clean water, their iphones, their SUVs. They don't need pills and their ancestors didn't either. I'm not talking about penicillin and real medicine. I'm talking about malingering people in mass being sold a lie. You and I know it and if you're taking them you're not sober. I call bullshit

Hello again, Gamine,

Thanks for the response. Now, to answer your statements:

1. You began with:

   Hi. Even though your article is ridiculous I didn't have to antagonize you in the letter. I apologize for that.
   

   That's alright. Apology accepted. That is actually very commonplace when dealing with cult members. That is how they react to any criticism of their beliefs. Your hostile attack was actually predicted a long time ago: Dr. Jeffrey Schaler described it so well quite a while ago:

   Cult Busting:

   One way of testing the cult nature of a group is by challenging the ideology binding the group together. We can discover something about the nature of a group by how well its members tolerate opposition to the ideology that holds the group together. How well do members tolerate difference of opinion, opinion that challenges the very ideological heart of the group?

   Members of the cult are like a colony of insects when disturbed. A frenzy of activity and protective measures are executed when core ideologies are challenged. The stronger the evidence challenging the truthfulness of the group ideology, the more likely members of the cult are to either lash out in a more or less predictable fashion, fall apart, or disband into separate cult colonies.

   "Lash out in a more or less predictable fashion." Yes. I have received so many letters where the correspondent reacts to criticism of the core A.A. ideology the same way.

   So in a way, it isn't even your fault. That's what the cult does to your mind. And that is one of the reasons that I am opposed to cults.

2. Then you wrote:

   AA blew up bigger and bigger for 60 years, its huge and has millions of sober recovered members worldwide but you say it doesn't work and has no success rate. If the steps don't work then why are these people recovered and continue to attend, and more groups pop up?
   

   That is broken logic. The fact that A.A. grew rapidly for 60 years does not mean that A.A. works to cure alcohol addiction. It just means that A.A. grew rapidly for 60 years.

   Scientology also grew rapidly during the last 60 years. They are a big rich organization with offices in most all of the major cities. Does that show that the Scientology program called Narconon really works as a cure for drug and alcohol addiction? Why not? After all, they are just like A.A.: Founded by a raving lunatic, based on false assumptions about the human mind, and claiming to have the only cure, and having zero valid medical tests that show that their methods really work. So why is A.A. good and Scientology bad? And it isn't money, like you mentioned in your last letter. The only difference is, you pay Scientology directly, and in A.A., you pay the 12-Step-based treatment center.

   The next sentence is also illogical: "If the Steps don't work, then why are these people recovered?" They aren't recovered. The vast majority of people who go to A.A. do not get sober. You are only looking at a few success stories and ignoring the huge numbers of A.A. failures. Barely one percent of the A.A. newcomers get 10 years of sobriety in A.A., and less than one in a thousand get 20 years. (Look here.)

   Now why do they continue to attend? For a variety of reasons. We have discussed this before too, several times. Look at: orange-letters107.html#why_cult

   What do they get? Why do they continue to attend? For much the same reasons as people stay in any cult:

   • Some get feelings of being special. "We are the Chosen People. Only unto us has God given The Gift."
   • Some get a feeling of belonging.
   • Some get the promise of a ticket to Heaven.
   • Some get the promise of sobriety.
   • Some believe Bill Wilson's "Promises".
   • Some get fake love.
   • Some get the feeling that somebody understands.
   • Some get the feeling that she is getting right with God.
   • Some get the belief that she is getting spiritual.
   • Some get the security of unquestionable dogma.
   • Some get the fantasy of being a moral Titan, heroically saving the world.
   • Some are afraid of death if they leave.
   • Some are afraid of losing their guaranteed ticket to Heaven if they leave.
   • Some are afraid of relapsing if they leave.
   • Some are afraid of having no "program" to live by if they leave.
   • Some are reluctant to admit that they have wasted years of their life on nonsense.
   • Some oldtimers enjoy being a big frog in a small pond. Inside of A.A., the newcomers ooh and aah every time the oldtimers brags about how many years he has. Outside of A.A., the oldtimer is a nobody, just another guy who wrecked his life and career with alcohol.
   • There are members who have been made to believe that if they leave A.A., they are doomed to die drunk in a gutter.
   • Then there are members for whom A.A. is a social club. They enjoy the social get-togethers. It is their circle of "friends". The flip side of this item is, if they quit A.A., then their "friends" won't like them any more.
     
   • And then there are members who have been made to believe that they absolutely must go recruiting and get new A.A. members or they themselves will relapse and die drunk — that only "helping others" will save their lives.
     (BOTH lives. That is, that sentence works both ways: They believe that they have to recruit to save the other people's lives, and they believe that they have to go recruiting to save their own lives.) And they believe that they have to indoctrinate and convert newcomers for their own good. (Again, for the good of both of them.)

3. This is irrelevant and pointless:

   Have you ever been to aaAgnostica.org? Bill W, whether AA central likes it or not left AA wide open for atheists. He says so in AA Comes of Age. Yes, he toed the religious line (just like everyone does in modern America) but the steps are suggested and atheists who cease resenting the religiosity can fund them useful. You make Bill out to be a Manson figure and AA a cult. This can't be further from the truth.
   

   You seem to believe that because A.A. gives lip service to atheists, that it isn't a cult religion. Wrong. You and your fellow atheists are second-class citizens who are the butt of jokes in A.A.

   You should read Chapter 4 of the A.A. Big Book, "We Agnostics" until you get it: You must convert to Bill Wilson's religion. All of Bill's talk about how atheists are welcome was just Bill practicing deceptive recruiting. It's all a bait-and-switch trick. Bill Wilson said that atheists were okay only to get them into A.A. where they could be converted. Atheists are just targets for conversion. Atheists are not members, they are projects.

   This is what Bill Wilson and Dr. Bob really said about atheists:

   ... we agnostics and atheists chose to believe that our human intelligence was the last word... Rather vain of us, wasn't it?
         We, who have traveled this dubious path, beg you to lay aside prejudice, even against organized religion. ... People of faith have a logical idea of what life is all about.
   The Big Book, 3rd Edition, William G. Wilson, We Agnostics, page 49.

   Rather vain of you, isn't it, for you to imagine that you know better than Bill Wilson's religion?

   If you think you are an atheist, an agnostic, a skeptic, or have any other form of intellectual pride which keeps you from accepting what is in this book, I feel sorry for you.
   The Big Book, 3rd Edition, Dr. Robert Smith, Doctor Bob's Story, Page 181.

   So, Dr. Bob feels sorry for you, you victim of intellectual pride, imagining that you can think for yourself.

   Check out these bait-and-switch tricks:

   • First, A.A. tells you that "A.A. requires no beliefs," but then you have to believe everything they tell you, and have blind faith in the proclamations of Bill Wilson.

   • First, prospective new members are offered a tolerant, open-minded "spiritual" program, but then they get narrow-minded demands for belief in Bill Wilson's teachings.

   Aren't you familiar with the story of Jim Burwell, the resident atheist of A.A.? The sanctimonious "elders" wanted him to relapse and die because he wouldn't convert to being a crazy believer like them. Bill Wilson wouldn't put Jim's story in the Big Book until Jim "converted". (There is doubt about this. Some knowledgeable people say that Jim Burwell never converted. Wilson just wrote what he wished had happened. They say that Wilson's story of conversion in Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions is a fake.)

4. Then you wrote:

   Shame on Bill and shame on AA for what? For having genuine concern for alcoholics and wanting to help? Seriously dude, what do you expect?
   

   "Having genuine concern" is worthless. The cure has to actually work. And A.A. does not work. When a group says that it has a cure that RARELY fails, I expect it to work.

   Yes, shame on Bill Wilson and A.A. Bill Wilson was a raving lunatic, a pathological liar, a con artist, a thief, a sexual predator, and a fake holy man. That is not the kind of man that you want to use as a teacher or counselor or advisor.

5. Then you said,

   Dogma and religion fills every crevasse of Americana and you throw a tantrum over it and start a website that likely convinces people to keep drinking when some could of got sober in AA.
   

   And that is standard Minimization and Denial, a common propaganda trick. Bill Wilson said that alcoholics were really good at Minimization and Denial when you criticized their drinking. A.A. members are also good at it when you point out the flaws, faults, and crimes of Alcoholics Anonymous.

   Then you resorted to the standard complaint that telling the truth about A.A. will be a "disservice" to alcoholics — keeping them from getting sober in A.A. Again, you are trying to assert that A.A. works. It doesn't. A.A. is a failure and a fraud. So telling the truth about A.A. is not harming alcoholics. Quite the contrary. Many people have thanked me for warning them about the A.A. hoax.

   I do not tell people not to quit drinking. I just warn them about a cult that may harm them more than help them. And again, we often discuss how to quit drinking, and what helps. I mentioned that twice in the last letters and you seem to have overlooked or ignored it. Again:

   1. What works?
      
   2. the real treatment that I got
      
   3. How did you get to where you are?

   Here is the list of previous A.A. complaints about You are doing a real dis-service to alcoholics (by telling the truth).

6. Then you said,

   Youve bent up and warped what AA is, a place that helps. Each group is autonomous so they can't control the evils of society getting it.
   

   No, I tell it like it is. You are just In Denial. A.A. is not a place that helps. A.A. raises the death rate in alcoholics, and the rate of binge drinking, and the cost of hospitalization, and the rearrest rate. That is not "helping".

7. Then you wrote:

   For someone who supposedly has over a decade of sobriety you seem to be stuck on having sand in your pants over AA who really just want to help.
   

   Are you really so dense that you cannot understand why someone would criticize quack medicine that is harming sick people?

   I am not "stuck on A.A.". I simply do this web site as a service. You know, that A.A. slogan about being of service to alcoholics?

   And the phrase "AA who really just want to help" is a misleading excuse. Wanting to help is worthless. You have to really do it or you are merely wasting sick people's time. It's just like the old saying that "Good intentions is the opposite of good."

8. This is a trite platitude. What's the point?

   There are high bottom drunks in AA, they didn't need skid row, a divorce or jail time to quit drinking, a bottom is reached when people stop digging.
   

9. This is revealing:

   I empathize with you over the imperfections of dogma and Christianity plaguing us all....believe me. I've literally read all the atheist authors especially Sam Harris. I drank hard at them and eventually slit my throat and almost bled to death.
   

   Are you actually telling us that you tried to commit suicide because you "drank at" the imperfections of Christianity? Are you under the care of a psychiatrist now? Are you going to claim that you still don't need any of their pills?

10. Your second letter explains:

    Seriously, I made an attempt on my life because I couldn't stand to live amongst a species so hell bent on believing bullshit. I'm more Atheist than many and fucking hate faith and prayer and religions clinch on rational progress.
    

    Can you hear yourself? You claim that you would rather die than "live amongst a species so hell bent on believing bullshit", and then you go and join a cult religion and get totally indoctrinated with A.A. bullshit. Outrageous.

    So why do you HATE "faith and prayer and religions clinch on rational progress"? Doesn't A.A. say that you can't have a resentment?

    Now I also object to "religion's clinch on rational progress". That is one of the reasons that I do this web site. A.A. is also an irrational cult religion that impedes rational progress in treating alcohol abuse and addictions.

11. Then you wrote:

    You know what, there's others like me in AA. I worked the program and the damn thing works without a higher power. Xtian AA's can whine, say I did it wrong etc... many of them go back out, ol timers can bitch too... old people whine about kids across the spectrum of life not just AA.
    

    Yes, the brainwashing works without a "Higher Power". You don't need a god in a brainwashing program.

    And that is what the 12 Steps are: They are Dr. Frank Nathan Daniel Buchman's guilt-inducing methods of religious conversion. They have nothing to do with sobriety or quitting drinking.

    And those Steps seem to have worked on you: You are just spouting the irrational A.A. party line and dogma non-stop.

12. Then you said,

    Maybe a dry drunk IS someone who can stay sober but just continues to be a dick.

    There is no such thing as a "dry drunk". That is just another A.A. fallacy. There are such things as dicks and assholes and creeps and monsters inside of and outside of A.A., but those things have nothing to do with being a "dry drunk".

13. Then you said,

    Funny how the steps, even without God send a message of policing our motives and being of use to others. Us atheists can't agree more that ethics are admirable and that we should display them.
    

    That is nonsense. The Steps do no such thing. The 12 Steps do not teach ethics. Check out what crazy fundamentalists like Mike Q. and Clancy I. do with those Steps:

    1. Stories of the Midtown Group of Alcoholics Anonymous
    2. Stories about Clancy Imusland's Pacific Group. And the Atlantic Group, Foxhall Group, Badger Group, and Nursery...

14. Then you wrote:

    I just don't get what you're so sore about? That you'll waste time writing that shit when its obvious you're a terrible writer with a giant knot in your panties over some religious folk who actually help. Have you not noticed that the entire nation is a cess pool of jesus lovers? Even our money says in god we trust so newsflash buddy, get over it, you're letting it consume you.
    

    What am I so sore about? A.A. is a fraud, just quack medicine that hurts a lot of sick people. Read these things to find out what I'm so sore about:

    1. A.A. Horror Stories
    2. A.A. "No Meds" Stories
    3. A.A. Suicides

    It's very odd how you praise A.A. members as "some religious folk who actually help", but you sliced your own throat because you didn't want to be around "imperfections of dogma and Christianity plaguing us all". So religious people are okay if they are in A.A., but otherwise, you find them so objectionable that you want to kill yourself rather than live among them? That is not logical. Or rational.

15. Then you said,

    Have fun being miserable and angry and powerless over our theocracy.
    

    I'm okay. Don't worry about me being miserable. I'm not the one who is cutting his own throat.

    Ah, so now you admit that A.A. is a theocracy? Or were you trying to be funny?

16. Then you wrote:

    AA is a series of autonomous groups not a cash crop of 12 step facilities. The papers getting signed from judges aren't authenticated by a court official! Those idiots that come know that.
    

    That is more Minimization and Denial. Of course there is a large connection between Alcoholics Anonymous and 12-Step-based treatment centers. The TCs act as recruiting centers for A.A. and N.A. — heck, the so-called "treatment" is nothing but selling the 12-Step religion — and the 12-Step organizations in turn act as commercials for the treatment centers. And many TCs buy and then "give away" copies of the Big Book, but only after the patient pays many thousands of dollars for the "treatment".

    And your line about the judges' court orders not being "authenticated by a court official" is illogical. Where do you get that? Judges rule, not "court officials" like court clerks and judges' assistants. When a judge sentences someone to A.A. meetings, that's it. It's a done deal. The judge does not need any "court official" to approve of his ruling.

    Or was that a typo? Did you mean to write, "the papers getting signed FOR judges"? Well, that isn't entirely true either. It is true that sometimes it is possible for someone to forge signatures for meetings that someone did not attend, but I hear plenty of stories of judges and parole officers and other court officials using snitches to tell who is really attending the meetings. And then some people have to attend specific meetings where it is obvious whether they are there or not. Then people in prison have only one meeting to attend, so there is no doubt whether they are at the meeting. So you cannot always fake it. Besides, whether the judge can tell for sure if someone attended a meeting does not change the fact that it is illegal and unConstitutional to sentence people to a religion.

17. Then you said,

    Also, I get the feeling that you take antidepressants and/or other drugs because you defend them so ambitiously. Guess what, if you are, and judging from your ranting shit writing, you're an addict in denial abusing drugs.
    

    No, I don't take antidepressant or any psychiatric medications. Nice try at an ad hominem personal attack.

    And no, I'm not an addict abusing drugs. I don't take anything but what the doctor gives me, other than supplemental vitamins and minerals, and chondroitin sulphate for arthritis.

    See how the cult mind works? You just have to launch personal attacks on people who disagree with you. In spite of your talk about liking atheistic rational thinking, you refuse to actually calmly discuss the real facts like a good logical atheist. You began this group of letters by apologizing for your previous attacks, but now you are slipping back into that bad habit again. That is the A.A. cult training at work. Cults teach people to use ad hominem personal attacks on critics, rather than realistically discuss the real facts.

18. Then you said,

    I'm not a doctor huh? It doesn't take an MD to see that 100 years ago and for mellinia before that, people lived awfully uncomfortable lives without ever swallowing a vitamin. Now there is literally a pill, affecting the circadian rhythm in blind people to help them know...
    To help blind folks know when bedtime is.

    Your ramble there is pointless. I said that you are not qualified to decide whether someone should be taking psychiatric medications. And you still aren't. You are not a doctor or a psychiatrist. And you sound like you should be taking some medications yourself, before you slice your own throat again.

19. Are you kidding me Orange? Do you even know what malingering is? If you don't think it applies to millions of Americans than you're plain ignorant. These people with all the conveniences of modern life aren't fucking depressed, give me a break and get honest. They sure aa shit don't need mood altering substances to cope with their over indulgent western lives, their clean water, their iphones, their SUVs. They don't need pills and their ancestors didn't either. I'm not talking about penicillin and real medicine. I'm talking about malingering people in mass being sold a lie. You and I know it and if you're taking them you're not sober. I call bullshit
    

    Wow, you really have a negative view of the American people, don't you? Apparently, you hate the American people so much that you sliced your own throat so that you would not have to live among them.

    Now I also occasionally feel a little depressed when I see some irrational misinformed people voting in stupid ways, for illogical causes where they are hurting themselves. I don't like to see people voting for racism or bigotry or religious fanaticism or economic exploitation of the poor. But I don't try to kill myself over it.

    Please see a psychiatrist. They can help. If you get one that doesn't help, then try another one and another one until you find a good one. Really. Life can be much better.

20. About your last statement:

    They sure aa shit don't need mood altering substances to cope with their over indulgent western lives, their clean water, their iphones, their SUVs. They don't need pills and their ancestors didn't either.
    

    That is arrogant, condescending, and wrong. Saying that they don't need pills like their ancestors didn't need pills is broken logic and totally untrue. Their ancestors died from lack of pills like penicillin. A few centuries ago, it was common for a woman to have 12 children and 6 to 10 of them died in childhood. Sometimes all of them died. Read old-time novels like the writings of Charles Dickens and notice how often someone in the novel is worried about the entire line of his family dying out — he had no surviving heirs. ALL of his children died from lack of those pills, and so did all of his nieces and nephews.

    Today, people often have no idea what life was like 200 years ago. They don't have even a tiny inkling of what life was like without modern medicine. They don't relate to stories like the man who had 5 wives, one after another, because the first four died in childbirth. They don't know what it feels like to live in a world where people run from the cities screaming "Plague!" or "Smallpox!" or "Polio!" or "Spanish Influenza!" They don't know what it feels like to live in a world where one of your children may sneeze or start to cough, and a week later the child is dead. Heck, it even happened to President Abraham Lincoln. Little Todd Lincoln suddenly died and it just destroyed his mother Mary Todd Lincoln, who ended up in an insane asylum.

    And imagining that people do not need "mood altering substances to cope" is again very unrealistic. Neurosis and insanity were commonplace a hundred years ago. The insane asylums were filled to overflowing, and were hells of a special kind. Psychiatrists consider the invention of anti-psychotic medications a minor miracle. The straight jacket was replaced with the tranquilizer.

    And today, the 12 Steps do not replace psychiatric medications. A.A. is not a cure for mental illness. Claiming that people should not take psychiatric medications is wrong, very wrong. That A.A. attitude kills a lot of people.

== Orange

*             orange@orange-papers.info        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     If some fool practices medicine without a license and kills a
**     coronary disease patient by giving him a poisonous witch's brew
**     of toxic herbs and chemicals, that fool will most assuredly be
**     prosecuted for manslaughter and practicing medicine without a
**     license.
**     But if some fool practices medicine without a license and kills an
**     alcoholic or a drug addict by giving him a poisonous witch's brew
**     of old cult religion and faith healing, nobody gets prosecuted.
**     Now why is that?

[The next letter from Gamine_H is here.]

May 25, 2014, Sunday, the Fernhill Wetlands at Forest Grove: Pelicans taking off [The story of the birds continues here.]

[ Link here = http://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters402.html#Mike_P ]

Date: Wed, 21 May 2014 19:02:29     (answered 26 May 2014)
From: Michael P.
To: orange@orange-papers.info
Subject: AA quandary

Hi Orange,

I stumbled upon your website a while ago when I was doing a search on subjects like, "AA cult". I have read a bunch of stuff that you have written, and sadly, I can relate to a ton of it. The thing is, that if I bring up any of these concerns, I am quickly criticized, and I am told how sick I am. I am a doctor, and lost my residency position 2 years ago because of a looming addiction to opioids pre and post surgery. I was given a "2nd chance", which entailed a brief 30 day absence from work, but had a nervous breakdown when I returned, and I resorted to a sedative because I truly felt like I was gonna have a heart attack. Anyway, June will be 2 years clean for me. Unfortunately when you are a doctor, you get reported for this kind of stuff, and I have been under contract with the medical board for the last 2 years, with about 5 years left until I am off. In this contract, I have to do random drug screens, appearances, 3 AA or NA meetings a week, 2 years of aftercare, and quarterly reports, including psychiatric treatment. I have been in AA for the last 2 years, and I have come to the point where I feel like a mindless idiot; I am at my wit's end.

When I first got to the meetings, I explained to people what happened to me, and how I was horrified how I lost my career and a girlfriend I loved very much. Turns out that she didn't stick around mainly because I lost my job. Anyway, all people kept telling me was that "it gets better", and "get ready for the ride of your life", and that they "have a life beyond their wildest dreams". That last one just fucking kills me; whenever I hear that it sounds like nails on the chalkboard. I mean, some of these people who say that do nothing but go to meetings and have menial jobs, broken families and shitty living conditions. Don't get me wrong, as I don't have much either, and I am not looking down on them, but "wildest dreams"? Come on. Anyway, since being "sober", my life hasn't improved much. I am still waiting to start a research job in Cleveland, pending my medical license being activated. I am reminded every day about how much of a loser I am, and I feel like all these meetings do is tell me that life is beautiful because I am sober. I ask these people, "what good is being sober if I am gonna be homeless?". I explain my disdain with the program, about many of the cult characteristics and contradictions. Needless to say, I am not a very popular guy in AA. I have gone thru 6 sponsors in 2 years; the last guy was about 72 or so and he recently died, but he was a good, caring guy, but he was going to meetings religiously for 32 years and I just couldn't understand why someone would subject themselves to daily doses of banalities and truisms and keep coming back for more. Many other people I used to talk to on the phone simply alienated me, and never returned my calls. They call this a program of rigorous honesty, but if you say something they don't like, they cut you off.

The problem with me is that while I believe I had a major problem with drugs, it was for a short period of time in my life. I used opioids on and off for about 6 months, and I was 36 years old. Never had a problem with alcohol, and never had a habit with opioids before that. I just went through a very rough time in my life exacerbated by a debilitating injury, for which nobody in my profession had any sympathy for. I don't believe I am "diseased". I don't believe that the answer to all of my problems lies in some fucking book or in some shitty kindergarten church room with cookies and coffee (shit, I don't even drink coffee), or outside in some disgusting smoke filled environment talking with disheveled simpletons consisting of beat up ex heroin addict girls. In aftercare, I have more clean time than 90% of the people in there.

If I criticize the shortcomings of the program, like sponsors, guilt trips, commandments and hypocrisy, I am jumped on quickly. This happened about 2 weeks ago when 3 heroin girls started beating me up because they didn't like what I had to say. One bitch with 3 months sober asked me "do you have a sponsor?". That seems to be the default question when they run out of ideas. I am told that if I don't embrace this program, if I don't go to meetings every day and if I don't get serene, I am definitely going to use again. I don't agree with this. I am clean for 2 years, and it has nothing to do with AA, a sponsor, steps or any other snake oil. I am clean because I have no reason to use vicodin anymore. I realize I made a bad mistake by doing so in the past. And I know that if I do go down that road again, the consequences will be greater than I can handle.

Just to let you know, doctors in AA are the worst cult members I have ever seen. I was part of some message board where I thought I might get some help getting my life back together. If I mentioned that I was having a problem finding a job, I was told things like, "meetings, meetings and more meetings", or "go to a meeting, introduce yourself as a newcomer, and get a commitment", or "volunteer in a soup kitchen because it is good for the humility", or "move to Michigan into a sober house because the sobriety there is very good". Does any of this make sense to you, especially after having over a year of clean time?

It seems like people in AA view themselves as 2nd class citizens, and simply enjoy self deprecation. Then they project all of their self loathing on people like me, telling me I am no different than the junkie who has just gone back to treatment for the 10th time. I am told I am very sick, diseased, not right in the head, not like normal people, a drink away, not trustworthy because I am an addict, and so on. This talk is not inspiring. It breaks me down and hurts my confidence and self esteem. I have gotten so bad to the point where I feel like death is a better way out that living in this perpetual purgatory on earth.

My support group consists of a few people in and out of AA. The ones in AA don't necessarily see eye to eye with me on everything, but they like me as a person, and they understand me to a certain point. I just feel that if I were to get my career back and gain some autonomy, I might feel better. I know a job is not the answer to all of my problems, but I believe it is a start for me to move on so I can put that awful experience I had behind me. It seems that AA doesn't want me to move on, but to use my experience to define who I am and to be of maximal service to others. That hurts.

I'd like to talk with you if you are willing. Please let me know and I will give you my number. Thanks.

Mike

Hello Mike,

Thank you for the letter and the story. I have to agree with you on every point. You clearly understand the insanity of 12-Step "recovery".

You are right that they don't want you to move on. They want you to be a depressed, oppressed, member of their groups for the rest of your life. Misery loves company, and they are miserable and they want you.

I agree that it is absurd for a beginner with three months of sobriety to be lecturing you as if she was an expert on addictions. Alas, that is what a cult does to people's minds. We Have The Panacea. is a standard cult characteristic. With a staggeringly huge 3 months of sobriety, she imagines that she has "The Keys to the Kingdom." (That is, of course, the title of one of the stories in the A.A. Big Book.)

Yes, it's a cult. An arrogant cult. (But then again, I guess all cults are arrogant, what with insisting that they have all of the answers, and outsiders don't know anything, and the cult members are special, Chosen By God for a special mission...)

This is totally true:

It seems like people in AA view themselves as 2nd class citizens, and simply enjoy self deprecation. Then they project all of their self loathing on people like me, telling me I am no different than the junkie who has just gone back to treatment for the 10th time.

== Orange

*             orange@orange-papers.info        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
*
**     Any energy you place on what transpired in the past
**     is groundwork for guilt, and ego loves guilt.
**     Such negative energy fabricates an excuse for why
**     your present moments are troubled and gives you
**     a cop-out, a reason to stay out of Spirit.
**       ==  Dr. Wayne W. Dyer, Inspiration Perpetual Flip Calendar, June 21.

[ Link here = http://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters402.html#Mike_P2 ]

Date: 30 May 2014

Hello again, Michael,

In our talk, I was trying to remember this:

A.A. uses three or four different definitions of "alcoholic", and mixes them up, which really confuses the issue.

The definitions are:

1. An alcoholic is someone who habitually drinks far too much alcohol.
2. An alcoholic is someone who is hyper-sensitive to alcohol, almost allergic to alcohol, perhaps a genetic alcoholic; someone who cannot drink even one drink or his drinking will spin out of control and he will become readdicted to alcohol.
3. An alcoholic is somebody who cannot quit drinking — he is "powerless" over alcohol.
4. An alcoholic is an insane sinner who is full of disgusting character defects and moral shortcomings and resentments and barely-contained anger, and is a prime example of self-will run riot and instincts run wild and selfishness and self-seeking and the Seven Deadly Sins, although he doesn't think so... etc., etc., ...

When I call myself an alcoholic, I usually mean definition 2, and only occasionally definition 1, but never definitions 3 or 4.

1. By definition 1, I stopped being an alcoholic more than 13 years ago.
2. By definition 2, I will always be an alcoholic.
3. By definition 3, I wasn't an alcoholic, because I could quit drinking, and I did. I was not "powerless over alcohol". I even quit drinking without any help from A.A., because I quit drinking two weeks before I was ever sent to an A.A. meeting.
4. By definition 4, I was never an alcoholic. I was always a nice drunk. People liked having me at their parties because I was so much fun to have around when I got high. (But, as one friend said, "Even nice drunks die of cirrhosis of the liver...")

== Orange

*             orange@orange-papers.info        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
*
**     When I "graduated" from the so-called "treatment program" at the
**     local "treatment center" (because the health insurance funding ran
**     out), they congratulated me for my continuous sobriety and for "achieving
**     the goals" of the treatment program. That starkly contrasts with the
**     A.A. dogma that says that you are powerless over alcohol. If I were
**     really powerless, then I couldn't have chosen sobriety, and I couldn't
**     have accomplished anything. The so-called treatment is contradictory:
**     They demand that you go to 12-Step meetings and get a sponsor and
**     join the 12-Step cult religion, but they also demand that you act
**     like you have the situation totally under your own control, and
**     abstain from drinking or drugging as a matter of choice.
*
**     When they tell you that you are powerless,
**     that just means that somebody else gets the power.

[The next letter from Mike_P is here.]

May 25, 2014, Sunday, the Fernhill Wetlands at Forest Grove: Gus is alone today. All of the Canada Geese went someplace else today, probably because of the rain storms. He still appreciates munchies. The domesticated ducks Two new white ducks showed up today. They are very tame, and were obviously someone's pets. The Fernhill Wetlands is a pretty obvious place to put unwanted pet ducks. And it isn't a bad place for them. The newcomers look like two females, which is even better for the two remaining drakes. These four ducks immediately became an inseparable flock. It was convient for the new girls who might have been feeling lost or abandoned when they got dumped here. They ran into a couple of experienced old drakes who had been around here for years, who said to them, "Hey, this is an alright place. Let us show you around. Here is where we hang out. And here is the human who feeds us. You want to get to know him..." [The story of the birds continues here.]

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Last updated 9 October 2014.
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