[ Link here = http://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters341.html#Peter_F ]

Date: Wed, February 6, 2013 12:00 pm     (Answered 8 February 2013)
From: "Peter F."
Subject: 'Marijuana Recovery' — The Next Major Support Group for Recovering Alcoholics, Cocaine and Heroin Addicts?

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/dr-peter-ferentzy/drug-addict-marijuana-subsitution_b_2563939.html

Peter Ferentzy, PhD
Author of Dealing With Addiction — why the 20th century was wrong
http://www.peterferentzy.com

Hello again, Peter,

The first time that I heard somebody talk about "recovery from marijuana addiction", I thought that it was a joke, like a satire. I was surrounded by people who were recovering from heroin or cocaine or alcohol or speed, people who had gone right to the edge, and nearly died, and then somebody complained that he was "addicted" to marijuana. My reaction was, "Yes, and I bet you have a really wicked addiction to chocolate ice cream too."

Obviously, the word "addiction" means different things to different people.

Personally, I smoked tons of pot for years. I lived on a hippie commune and I can't even count how much pot I smoked. And hashish and kief and hash oil and whatever form came along. But then I just "matured out of it". I got to the point where I didn't like smoking pot at the start of the day because then I was cloudy-headed all day. And then, over the years, I smoked it less and less until I occasionally noticed that it had been months or a year since I'd smoked any. I never officially quit pot, I just didn't get around to smoking it for years at a time. That isn't much of an addiction. In my experience, marijuana is about the least-addicting drug on Earth.

Now I can understand how someone who is suffering from Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder can fixate on smoking pot and feel compulsively driven to smoke pot all day long. Such a person needs psychiatric help. The problem is the OCD, not the pot. People with OCD can just as easily fixate on any other drug or alcohol or tobacco or food or sex, or even on funny things like hand-washing. And 12-Step cult religion is about the worst possible treatment for such patients.

Now, about the core point of your article: I have to totally agree. Some people have to be pretty pig-headed to object to sick people substituting pot for heroin, alcohol, cocaine, or speed. That's a great thing, not something to be outlawed. The improvement in lifestyle and health from getting off of the hard drugs is immense.

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             orange@orange-papers.info        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     The greater the desire of your soul to heal your addiction,
**      the greater will be the cost of keeping it.
**         ==  Gary Zukov

[ Link here = http://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters341.html#Peter_F2 ]

Date: Sat, February 9, 2013 4:26 pm     (Answered 13 February 2013)
From: "Peter F."
Subject: RE: 'Marijuana Recovery' — The Next Major Support Group for Recovering Alcoholics, Cocaine and Heroin Addicts?

Thanks for your thoughts, Orange. You are right of course: weed can be addictive. Like gambling and sex, anything can be. The last thing I'd want to do if push weed aggressively as an option — some are much better off without it. It's person specific, and I'm glad you get that (many do not).

Peter Ferentzy, PhD
Author of Dealing With Addiction — why the 20th century was wrong
http://www.peterferentzy.com

Hi again, Peter,

Actually, my meaning was pretty much the opposite. I don't care if people get "addicted" to chocolate ice cream or marijuana. That "problem" is trivial compared to addiction to heroin, cocaine, speed, or alcohol, or even tobacco.

I regard "addiction to marijuana" as a joke, a non-problem.

And again, if someone is suffering from an obsessive-compulsive disorder, then that is the real problem that must be cured, not the marijuana smoking or the compulsive hand-washing, or whatever it is.

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             orange@orange-papers.info        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**      Powerful indeed is the empire of habit.
**        ==  Syrus  (42 B.C.)

[The next letter from Peter_F is here.]

[ Link here = http://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters341.html#Peter_D ]

Date: Thu, February 7, 2013 4:14 pm     (Answered 13 February 2013)
From: "PETER D."
Subject:

There is ONE slogan in AA that is a universal one...Live and Let Live.

You DO know that alcoholism is a disease..yes?

A three-fold illness...mental physical and spiritual...the last one seems to bother you the most...

Carl Jung stated (to paraphrase)..."there is not a single one of my patients over the age of 35 who couldn't be helped by attaining a spiritual dimension to their lives.." and couldn't be helped UNTIL that happened.

Alcoholism..a disease the medical profession are baffled by and try as they might..and to be fair,they HAVE tried..but with little real success.

You must also know that there are 'extremists' in most similar organisations...you are obviously quoting stuff you heard in USA..That figures as they are prone to extreme thinking there.. survivalist groups/pro-lifers/fundamentalist Christians etc..

Here in the UK AA,if someone tries that finger-pointing moralising nonsense they are just ignored and then they usually shut the hell up.

I stopped going to AA meetings some years ago..though have been trying to return..without much success..as I'm pretty lazy when all is said and done.

A onetime dyed in the wool atheist who now is content to say "well I just don't know" and leave it at that.

AA and a few good souls who I encountered DID save me from an early death..that is uncontestable for me..

You are obviously an intelligent person..but I think the axe you grind on AA is unfair.

With all the things wrong in the world and especially in USA, you're intelligence perhaps could be put to better use..?

My intentions are not mean spirited. I KNOW what a cult is...and AA is not one of them.

Pete D.

Hello Peter,

Thanks for the letter. Alas, there are a number of problems with those statements:

1. There is ONE slogan in AA that is a universal one...Live and Let Live.
   

   That is a nonsensical, meaningless slogan when the reality is that people are told not to take their medications, and then pushed to suicide with endless confessions in 4th and 5th Steps. Those people are not allowed to live.

   And the girls who are sexually exploited by the sponsors are not allowed to "just live", either.

2. You DO know that alcoholism is a disease..yes?
   

   No, "alcoholism" is not a disease. It is habitual behavior. If "alcoholism" was a disease, then A.A. sponsors would be guilty of practicing medicine without a license. They would also be guilty of trying to cure a disease with an old cult religion from the nineteen-thirties.

3. A three-fold illness...mental physical and spiritual...the last one seems to bother you the most...
   

   That is just another A.A. slogan. Please explain and describe "spiritual diseases". There are no such things.

   There are mental illnesses, and again, A.A. sponsors are not trained and licensed psychiatrists, qualified to treat mental illnesses. A.A. sponsors are also not trained and ordained priests or ministers, either, qualified to minister in religious matters.

   And "spirituality" does not bother me at all. (I recognize the only-slightly-veiled ad hominem attack there, by the way.) I'm an old Hippie child of the 'sixties who has studied more religions and cults than I care to brag about. You can read the file The Heresy of the Twelve Steps to get some idea of my spiritual beliefs.

4. Carl Jung stated (to paraphrase)..."there is not a single one of my patients over the age of 35 who couldn't be helped by attaining a spiritual dimension to their lives.." and couldn't be helped UNTIL that happened.
   

   Carl Jung the Nazi sympathizer said a whole lot of things. Try these quotes:

   The differences which actually do exist between Germanic and Jewish psychology and which have long been known to every intelligent [insightful] person are no longer to be glossed over, and this can only be beneficial to science. [C.W., 10:533].
   ...
   The Aryan unconscious has a higher potential than the Jewish; that is both the advantage and disadvantage of a youthfulness not yet fully weaned from barbarism.
   ...
   Has the formidable phenomenon of National Socialism, on which the whole world gazes with astonished [awe-struck, admiring] eyes, taught them better?
   

   Oh yes, we can have a lot of fun quoting Carl Jung.

   You can read a whole lot more of our discussions of Carl Jung here:
   http://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters2.html#Jung0

5. Alcoholism..a disease the medical profession are baffled by and try as they might..and to be fair,they HAVE tried..but with little real success.
   

   Bullshit. That is just Bill Wilson's rap about how his cult religion cure is better than doctors:

   Here was a book that said that I could do something that all these doctors and priests and ministers and psychiatrists that I'd been going to for years couldn't do!
   The Big Book, 3rd Edition, page 473.
   

   Actually, it is Alcoholics Anonymous that has had no real success. A.A. has a horrible failure rate, and an appalling death rate. One of the Trustees of Alcoholics Anonymous World Services wrote that.

6. You must also know that there are 'extremists' in most similar organisations...you are obviously quoting stuff you heard in USA..That figures as they are prone to extreme thinking there.. survivalist groups/pro-lifers/fundamentalist Christians etc..

   Here in the UK AA,if someone tries that finger-pointing moralising nonsense they are just ignored and then they usually shut the hell up.
   

   And that is the standard A.A. defense of "Not in MY group." Whenever anyone tells stories of sexual abuse and exploitation of newcomers, or driving newcomers to suicide by telling them not to take their medications, the standard A.A. answer is "Oh that never happens in our group. That only happens across the river, in that other meeting, or in another state, or in another country."

   Baloney. It happens everywhere. And the A.A. headquarters refuses to do anything to fix the situation.

7. I stopped going to AA meetings some years ago..though have been trying to return..without much success..as I'm pretty lazy when all is said and done.

   A onetime dyed in the wool atheist who now is content to say "well I just don't know" and leave it at that.
   

   That is all fine and well, but that does not say anything about the many religious fanatics in A.A.

8. AA and a few good souls who I encountered DID save me from an early death..that is uncontestable for me..
   

   The fact that you believe that A.A. saved your life is only proof that you believe that A.A. saved your life. Such mistaken beliefs are evidence of nothing. Tom Cruise swears that Scientology restored him to sanity, too.

   You saved your own life. Nobody holds your hand every Saturday night but you. It is very nice that you met some nice people who talked nicely to you and encouraged you when you were detoxing and were weak and shaky, but the fact remains that you chose to quit drinking and then you did it. You saved your own life. Congratulations on a job well done.

9. You are obviously an intelligent person..but I think the axe you grind on AA is unfair.
   

   No, what is unfair is lying to newcomers about the A.A. cure rate, and making newcomers think that if they just do the practices of Dr. Frank Buchman's old Nazi cult religion, that it will cure them of a "disease".

10. With all the things wrong in the world and especially in USA, you're intelligence perhaps could be put to better use..?
    

    Maybe, but I'm busy with this project now. After we get the quackery out of the treatment of addictions, then I'll look around for another cause.

11. My intentions are not mean spirited. I KNOW what a cult is...and AA is not one of them.
    

    Wrong. A.A. most assuredly is a cult. A.A. passes the Cult Test with a very high score. Read The Cult Test:
    http://www.orange-papers.info/orange-cult.html

== Orange

*             orange@orange-papers.info        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     Never was there a study that substance abusers were suffering
**     from a lack of spirituality, thus being the reason they got
**     addicted. This is how AA approaches the problem, condemning
**     the addict as being spiritually sick without any proof.
**     ==  Submitted by SallyJ on February 3, 2013 - 9:26pm.
**         Comments to Psychology Today article,
**         "Does 12-step Treatment Work by Inducing PTSD?"
**         http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/addicted-brains/201301/
**            does-12-step-treatment-work-inducing-ptsd/comments?page=5

June 14, 2012, Thursday: The Fernhill Wetlands Four goslings of a Family of 4. Two families of Canada Geese Three Goslings, getting some munchies These children look a little ragged now because they are growing their adult feathers, and losing their baby down. Bald Eagle, with the usual stern glare Great Blue Heron [More gosling photos below, here.]

[ Link here = http://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters341.html#Donald_L ]

Date: Sat, February 9, 2013 3:34 pm     (Answered 13 February 2013)
From: "Donald L."
Subject: Just read what you have to say about AA

Thanks!

Don — 25 years sober after a VERY heavy drinking problem and never went to a single fucking meeting of any kind. Nobody "intervened" me, either.

I might be weird or a freak, but I don't think my experience is that much of an anomaly.

My doctor told me "Don't even bother trying to quit unless you have something to replace it with." That damn sure wasn't going to be AA, but dirt-track stock car racing was good. I got a track championship in 2008 and retired from that and now bicycle 100+ miles/week. If I haven't addressed my real life issues because I still engage in compulsive, excessive behavior, that's tough shit. The excessive behavior is benign. Einstein was compulsive about science, Ray Charles was compulsive about music, MLK about social justice issues.

Pisses me off big-time that AA doesn't acknowledge roads to sobriety such as substitution of a benign "addiction." (I question AA meetings falling into the "benign" category, MAYBE for some.)

Will do a paypal donation.

Hi Donald,

Thanks for the letter. And congratulations on your recovery. I quite agree with what you said. I also recovered from alcohol addiction without a "support group" or "a Program", or "the A.A. way of life". Jeez. You just quit drinking and go do something else, like you said.

Just because people become passionate and involved with something — especially healthy things like bicycling — doesn't mean that there is something wrong. Heck, you have to do something with your time, and doing something that you enjoy and that gives you some fresh air and exercise is a whole lot better than just sitting around.

I mean, it's literally a matter of life or death. I have two friends who are couch potatoes, or should I say, "mouse potatoes", as Garrison Keeler (Prairie Home Companion) describes them. Sitting in a chair in front of a computer all day long, pushing a mouse. And smoking cigarettes. One had a heart attack, and the other one, also a habitual soda-pop drinker, just came down with diabetes. Not getting exercise is the kiss of death.

Speaking of which, how much exercise do people get sitting in a room and confessing their sins, and talking about how unhappy they are because they used to drink alcohol? (And then running outside to smoke a cigarette?)

Me, I also love to bike, and that's how I get around. My arthritis is getting bad, and I can't walk very far, but oddly enough, it doesn't hurt to sit on a bike seat and peddle. So I bike everywhere. Literally everywhere. A bicycle is my wheel chair. I don't even have a car. I do all of my shopping with the bike, and peddle home (all uphill) carrying all of the stuff, and get home huffing and puffing and all hot and sweaty. It's a good workout, and I get it often. And so far, no heart attack, no diabetes, no nuthin'.

I don't think it matters in the slightest if you are extreme about what you love. It beats the heck out of being apathetic. I know that some people think I'm crazy for loving the little goslings and feeding them and caring for them so much. So be it. I'm still having a good time. (And the little fluff-balls like it too.)

So have a good day now.

== Orange

*             orange@orange-papers.info        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     As life is passion and action, it is required of man that he should
**     share in the action and passion of his time, at peril of being judged
**     not to have lived.
**       ==  Oliver Wendell Holmes, Jr.

[ Link here = http://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters341.html#Bart_W ]

Date: Mon, February 11, 2013 12:08 pm     (Answered 13 February 2013)
From: "bart w."
Subject: Application for account

Hi,

I would like to sign up for this website/forum. I truly enjoy reading everything this site has to offer, being a former member of AA, was miserable my entire "AA life" seems the only time I've been truly happy have been while avoiding AA or speaking my mind against the brainwashed mindless drivel that is chanted & quoted every meeting. Funny how those people are so "culted" that you can go to any meeting in any part of the nation & hear the EXACT same stories, which I truly believe is part of their "I gotcha" mentallity. I haven't had a drink in almost 10 years & half of that time has been on my own, no "program" no steps, no sponsor, just me & I got a great life today!

--
Bart

Hello Bart,

Thanks for the letter, and sorry about your hassles. Well, you are free and I think in better company now.

What you do is just register. You see the little block at the upper left corner of the first page? You select "create new account" You just have to pick a user name and enter a valid email address where you will get a confirmation request.

Reply to the confirmation request, and then email me telling me what user name you registered. And I'll approve you and you are in.

Sorry about the involved round-about routine, but I'm fighting off spammers. I got 35,000 bogus registrations from spammers who were just trying to use the forum for their advertising. In foreign countries where labor is cheap, they actually have long tables of women who just type in fake registrations day and night.

Oh well, have a good day anyway.
== Orange

*             orange@orange-papers.info        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
** "Now I know what it's like to be high on life.
** It isn't as good, but my driving has improved."
** == Nina, on "Just Shoot Me", 13 Jan 2006.

[The previous letter from Edy_R is here.]

[ Link here = http://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters341.html#Edy_R ]

Date: Sat, February 9, 2013 6:58 pm     (Answered 13 February 2013)
From: "Edy R."
Subject: Re: Fallacy

You still haven't said why you have any business bashing 12-steps where some people find help... However, I think you do us a great service by NOT being a member, then you would make us look bad! Phew, dodged that bullet!

Hello again, Edy,

It's very simple: A.A. is a fraud and a hoax, and they hurt people by foisting cult religion and quack medicine on sick people. I have every right to criticize such criminal behavior.

And you still have not answered the questions about the A.A. success rate in "helping" people. So I will try again. Would you please answer this:?

You can't really "know" a program by reading a book, haha, that's called armchair philosophizing, quite deficient and unproductive! Wouldn't you say? Hh wait, you wouldn't because you would have no other evidence other than what you've interpreted in a book (not having worked the 12-steps for any real amount of time). You can put any label you want, it won't change a thing! You said: "Nonsense. Need I mention Scientology, the Hari Krishnas, the Moonies, and the Mormons"- wait! Those are RELIGIONS not CULTS! Hmmm... nonsense for sure! Aren't cult members strategically isolated from the outside world? I walk amongst every walk of life freely. Certainly, if AA was a cult we wouldn't be "allowed" to be members of our own religious fellowships and practitioners of our own religions.

Baloney. I've been to enough A.A. meetings to get a very good idea of what A.A. is. Now you are just trying the ad hominem trick of trying to claim that I don't know what I'm talking about.

You think that Scientology is not a cult? or the Hari Krishnas, the Moonies, and the Mormons? Apparently, you don't think that there is any such thing as a cult. Wow. Talk about somebody being in denial. Denial isn't just a river in Egypt.

The principles, which I'm so surprised you haven't come across in your 12-year obsession (clearly you've traded one for the other), are:

• Step 1 — Honesty
• Step 2 — Hope
• Step 3 — Faith
• Step 4 — Courage
• Step 5 — Integrity
• Step 6 — Willingness
• Step 7 — Humility
• Step 8 — Brotherly Love
• Step 9 — Justice
• Step 10 — Perseverance
• Step 11 — Spirituality
• Step 12 — Service

Those are not "spiritual principles". That is just a list of buzz-words. And that list is pretty contrived. You think that making a list of everything that you ever did wrong in Step 4 will give you "courage"? And begging "Higher Power" or Santa Claus to remove your defects in Step 7 gives you "humility"? (What makes you think you deserve to have God waiting on you hand and foot and doing favors for you when He won't do those favors for little black children in Africa?) And listing everybody you hurt or offended in Step 8 gives you "brotherly love"? And the frosting on the cake is doing Step 11 séances, hearing voices telling you what to do, supposedly gives you "spirituality". That is crazy. That is cult talk.

The "rules" or "commandments" you mentioned are NOT principles! Those are some of the Ten Commandments and that doesn't apply to Hinduism or Buddhism. They are demands, not principles or values... curious...

Hmmm. So you think that a list of buzz-words is real spirituality, but rules of proper conduct have nothing to do with spirituality?

You actually believe that commandments like "Don't lie. Don't steal. Don't murder." have nothing to do with spirituality? You obviously have no clue about what a spiritual life is.

And those rules most assuredly do apply to Buddhism and Hinduism. Remember that Buddha was born in India as a Hindu, and became a monk and practiced asceticism before founding his own school. And Buddha constantly taught right conduct and right behavior, and right thinking:

Abandon evildoing; Practice virtue well; Subdue your mind: This is the Buddha's teaching. Like a star, an optical illusion, or a flame, a magical illusion, a dewdrop, or a bubble, like a dream, a flash of lightning, or a cloud; So should one consider all compounded things. While reciting [Shantideva's] words, we should reflect on impermanence and the lack of reality in phenomena...
—The Dalai Lama, in "A Flash of Lightning in the Dark of Night"
from Everyday Mind, edited by Jean Smith, a Tricycle book
http://www.tricycle.com/issues/2_146/dailydharma/3164-1.html

12-steps have more in common with Cognitive Behavior Therapy, Stages of Change/motivational Interviewing, Acceptance and Commitment Therapy, and Dialectical Behavior Therapy than I'm certain your lay mind could imagine (all of which have been exhaustively studied and proven to be therapeutically beneficial).

No, that is not true at all. The 12 Steps have NOTHING to do with Cognitive Behavioral Therapy, or any of those other therapies. The 12 Steps are old cult religion, not therapy. You are again just listing some buzz-words that have nothing to do with A.A. And you are name-dropping.

What Bill Wilson really taught is that you should abandon your rational thinking mind and just believe what he said:

Some of us had already walked far over the Bridge of Reason toward the desired shore of faith. The outlines and the promise of the New Land had brought lustre to tired eyes and fresh courage to flagging spirits. Friendly hands stretched out in welcome. We were grateful that Reason had brought us so far. But somehow, we couldn't quite step ashore. Perhaps we had been leaning too heavily on Reason that last mile and did not like to lose our support.
The Big Book, 3rd & 4th Editions, William G. Wilson, Page 53.

We have talked about the phony pretense that 12-Step quackery equals CBT before, like here.

What a awesome pair: a fellowship of people around you who share a common goal and a REAL solution that works!!

The A.A. "program" does not work. If you think it works, then prove what the success rate is. Please answer the questions above about people getting 5- and 10-year coins.

In fact, 40% of change in the therapeutic process comes from the relationship (which isn't found in a wetland for most people but in interactions with real people working towards the same goal). Ever read: The Heart and Sould of Change? That is a whole book on proven effective treatments for you to read.

"Proven"? What is the success rate? Out of each 100 newcomers, how many get 10 years of sobriety? Where are the Randomized Longitudinal Controlled Studies that prove that your favorite treatments work? Come on. I mean really. Where are they?

Just because somebody wrote a book of propaganda does not prove that quack medicine works. I'll go to the library and check out the book.

Update: Okay, I found that book listed at the library, and have an Inter-Library Loan request in on it. It looks interesting, even though I do not see that magic words "test", "randomized studies", or "randomized longitudinal controlled studies" in any of the descriptions of the various therapies listed there. I did see:

• Alexandra Bachelor and Adam Horvath — Hope as a psychotherapeutic foundation of common factors, placebos, and expectancies
• James O. Prochaska — From placebo to alliance : the role of common factors in medicine
• Paul V. Maione and Ronald J. Chenail -- The client as a common factor : clients as self-healers

Is that what you sell your clients? Placebos and fake hope? Give them a placebo and hope that they will heal themselves? Is that what you call "therapy that works"? Really?

I'll read this book as soon as it arrives. And what I hope is, that they have a bunch of good randomized longitudinal controlled studies to prove what works.

I've been applying both 12-steps and clinical therapy as a Master's Level therapist, in in my own recovery experience and professional treatment settings respectively, for over 6 years and can SEE the real results.

Ah, now the truth comes out. You have a vested interest in not having your practice discredited. You are making money selling cult religion.

As your lay mind my not know: the root of CBT, SOC/MI, ACT, and DBT, in short Behaviorism, occurred during the advent of the wonderful ideas of the founding members and authors of AA and it's Big Book (coincidence? I think not! It was a period of the development of solutions to behavioral disorders, personality disorders, and mental illness for which people used to just be thrown in an asylum for life).

That is such an outrageous distortion of history. Some Behaviorists were working on their ideas, and at the same time, Bill Wilson copied Dr. Frank Buchman's cult religion and sold it as a quack cure for alcohol abuse, and you think that the Behaviorists owe a debt of gratitude to Bill Wilson's lies?

Ever read any of Carl Jung's letters to Bill Wilson? Carl Jung, as you probably don't know, is the father of psychoanalytic psychology, the precursor to Behaviorism.

Oh, I very much do know. We were just talking about Carl Jung and his Nazi ways a couple of letters back (here).

You can read a whole lot more of our discussions of Carl Jung here:
http://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters2.html#Jung0

The 12-steps also work wonderfully along side religious practices, to which MANY of our member's belong, such as Christianity, Judaism, and Buddhism.

We do not have ceremonies or "channel god", we pray and mediate in various ways as we chose, it is NEVER dictated.

You don't practice Step 11 and hear the Voice of God? Then you aren't doing it right. You are supposed to be in "conscious contact with God", remember? Bill Wilson said so:

On awakening, let us think about the twenty-four hours ahead. We consider our plans for the day. Before we begin, we ask God to direct our thinking...
...
Here we ask God for inspiration...
...
What used to be the hunch or the occasional inspiration becomes a working part of the mind. Being still inexperienced and having just made conscious contact with God, it is not probable that we are going to be inspired at all times. We might pay for this presumption in all sorts of absurd actions and ideas. Nevertheless, we find that our thinking will, as time passes, be more and more on the plane of inspiration. We come to rely on it.
The Big Book, pages 86 to 87.

Suggested maybe, it's not like we get beaten until we submit, we don't even get shamed for not doing it (two major motivational implements used in "cults"). We never MUST do anything; in fact the entire Big Book, which I read out of, purposefully uses language to the contrary.

You are so out of touch with reality that it is downright funny. And pathetic, considering that you are working as a professional therapist, foisting your misinformation on other people, and getting paid for doing it:

We don't "recruit", we wait until people come looking for help.

Again, that is totally wrong, a complete reversal of reality. Read Chapter 7 of the Big Book. That's the recruiting manual. The whole chapter is a recruiting manual. I analyzed much of it in this file: Recruiting Mind Games.

I've never gotten a sponsee anywhere but in a meeting and never until they ask me to help them.

What you have not done isn't the same thing as what everybody else in A.A. does or has not done.

I also don't believe it's the ONLY answer to getting sober; to each their own...

How generous of you. You mean there is another path to happiness besides Frank Buchman's Nazi cult religion?

But I do believe that people need to find a purpose, whether that's going to meetings and hanging out with friends who share a common goal or hanging in the wetlands alone finding an axe to grind (sounds awesome!).

Again, that is just your unproven belief. And do you imagine that practicing Frank Buchman's fascist religion gives people that purpose?

Ever read anything on Logotheory? Oh yeah, your not a true scholar, just an armchair philosophizor and clearly have found your higher purpose of sharing false propaganda ad nauseam.

No, I've never read anything about Logotheory, but I'll go to the library and check it out.

That shows the difference between us. You won't learn and you won't answer questions about the effectiveness of 12-Step treatment.

By the way, just dropping names like "Logotheory" proves nothing. What is the actual A.A. cure rate?

I don't need any "evidence" as to what all the readings say (it's not like we memorize all of them and I'm not a big book thumper), all the evidence I need is that I'm still sober and my life, self-esteem, since of purpose and direction, career, relationships, and health have all improved greatly since I started my recovery.

Thank you, thank you, thank you. Now you have shown your true colors:

Of course your life has improved since you stopped poisoning yourself with alcohol. But of course. How could it be otherwise? But that was never the question. The question is, "What evidence is there that doing the practices of Dr. Frank Buchman's cult religion will cure people of substance abuse problems?"

It has never hurt anyone, that's a ridiculous statement (as you said yourself: you picked up your 1 year chip, so you attended meetings for most difficult phase of recovering from substance use and call it harmful?) and, CA doesn't have glow-in-the-dark key fobs... how fun though: "We are not a glum lot. We absolutely insist on enjoying life."

"IT" has never hurt anybody? Again, you are delusional. I have very long lists of letters from people who were hurt. Want to read about the people whom A.A. sponsors told not to take their medications, and then they died or committed suicide? How about the girls who were raped?

Try reading these:

1. A.A. Horror Stories
2. A.A. "No Meds" Stories
3. Stories of the Midtown Group of Alcoholics Anonymous
4. Stories about Clancy Imusland's Pacific Group

Anyhow, this will be my final email as I find your close-mindedness and misplaced anger exhausting and, frankly, not at all worth my time.

Good Luck,
Edy

Okay, Edy, goodbye. And please resign from your position now, as you have clearly shown that you are incompetent and that your practice is nothing but selling an old cult religion to the suckers. And you say that you don't need any evidence to support your quackery.

Otherwise, have a good day.

== Orange

*             orange@orange-papers.info        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     He who attempts to make others believe in means which he himself
**     despises, is a puffer; he who makes use of more means that he
**     knows to be necessary, is a quack; and he who ascribes to those
**     means a greater efficacy than his own experience warrants, is an imposter.
**         ==  John Caspar Lavater (1741—1801), Swiss theologian

June 15, 2012, Friday: The Fernhill Wetlands The younger Family of 6 The older Family of 6 The baby of the family is the small one in the rear center. The white patch on the side of its head shows that it too is growing feathers now. The older Family of 6 The baby of the family is the small one in the center with its head up. The older Family of 6 The youngster in the middle with its mouth open is asking for some bread. The two goslings in the rear are eating rolled oats from that white pile on the ground. A Mallard Duck family. That mother has 9 surviving babies. She is doing well. [The story of the goslings continues here.]

[ Link here = http://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters341.html#Michael_M ]

Date: Sun, February 10, 2013 6:04 am     (Answered 14 February 2013)
From: "Michael Mccomb"
Subject: Seven Years

Hi Orange.

I just wanted to write to share with you and the readers that I passed seven years of sobriety without AA on January 15th, 2013. I found your site a little over seven years ago. Before finding your letters section I thought I was the only one struggling in AA. The cult members made me feel like I was the problem, and that I just didn't want help. After reading the letters section it reinforced everything I saw and felt in AA. It wasn't me all along! It was that I could not adapt to the screwy AA philosophy. Ever since that day I have remained sober and life has become better and better. If any reader is struggling in AA, I want you to know what I tell you is true. Leaving AA after years and years of 'trying to get it', was the hardest thing I ever had to do. But, it has been the most rewarding!

Thank you for continuing on, Orange. You help more people than you will ever know.

Sincerely,

Michael T. McComb. (Please don't hide my name)

Sent from my iPhone

Hello Michael,

Thanks for the happy letter. That is great news. I'm so happy for you. Congratulations. And thanks for the compliments.

So have a good day now. And a good year. And a good life.

== Orange

*             orange@orange-papers.info        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     The only freedom worth possessing is that which gives
**     enlargement to a people's energy, intellect, and virtues.
**       ==  William Ellery Channing (1780—1842), Amer. Unit. Clergy

Date: Thu, February 14, 2013 6:58 pm
From: "Michael Mccomb"
Subject: Re: Seven Years

Thanks for the thanks, Orange. I truly don't know where I'd be if I had not have found your site. Knowing that there is people out there going through the same thing as you does something magical.

Mike

[ Link here = http://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters341.html#DH ]

Date: Sun, February 10, 2013 7:33 am     (Answered 14 February 2013)
From: "Dri Heaves"
Subject: Facebook [Orange Papers] Repost

Dri Heaves posted in Orange Papers

Repost

True atheist share a disbelief in the existence of deity also: the doctrine that there is no deity.

In the book, Alcoholics Anonymous, it is very clear that the strong religious nature of what and how it is written that the whole basis (root) of the program depends on a belief of a deity.

The word "god" in capital letters, phrases like "may you find him now" and Dr. Bob's writing addition of "find god or die" only have one meaning.

No matter how the defense of the program, AA has become a religious cult from day one, even though Bill tried to steer it away from the religious zealots in Akron with a few synonyms. Bill-isms are very confusing writing, full of contradictions.

sic.. Christians would look funny if proclaiming Bill W. and\or Dr. Bob, some egocentric sponsor or inanimate object as lord and savior.

*G.O.D=god on demand* not only for AAers?

and Jews; "You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me, but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My Commandments".

Then, what happens when one can't believe?

So much for creating your own conception. (OY VEY, the guilt, the guilt)

All I am saying is that it is impossible for a true atheist to practice the program of AA,

MY experience, in my 20+ years in and around fellowship meetings, MOST AA'ers are intolerant of Atheism.

We say that most wanna be AA atheists are confused to the meanings of atheist vs. agnostic and are suggested to re-read chapter 4 where Atheists are forced to go against their core beliefs. Those Atheists that choose to remain in the program are not Atheists at all but clearly just non-conformists wanting to buck the system either knowingly or not.

After 16 years of trying to force myself to believe in the program, I didn't get sober/clean until I had completely removed god, higher power out of my program, then the program did not exist. "Take what you need and leave! That was a long time ago.

Therefore if a true atheist believes that god does not exist, their program ends there.

There are powers greater than all of us, but for true atheists, the word faith (a term conceived by religions), does not exist.

*= dictionary results "CULT"

—noun

• 1.a particular system of religious worship, esp. with reference to its rites and ceremonies.
• 2.an instance of great veneration of a person, ideal, or thing, esp. as manifested by a body of admirers:
• 3.the object of such devotion.
• 4.a group or sect bound together by veneration of the same thing, person, ideal, etc.
• 5.Sociology . a group having a sacred ideology and a set of rites centering around their sacred symbols.
• 6.a religion or sect considered to be false, unorthodox, or extremist, with members often living outside of conventional society under the direction of a charismatic leader.
• 7.the members of such a religion or sect.
• 8.any system for treating human sickness that originated by a person usually claiming to have sole insight into the nature of disease, and that employs methods regarded as unorthodox or unscientific.
  —adjective
  
• 9.of or pertaining to a cult.
• 10.of, for, or attracting a small group of devotees:

Sound Familiar?

DH

http://www.facebook.com/n/?groups%2Faorange%2Fpermalink%2F490232671039906%2F&
mid=781baeeG25f2680eGc08e9c6G96&bcode=1.1360510401.AblDVrKhy5YjaXPk&
n_m=orange%40orange-papers.info

Hello DH,

Thanks for the post. I have to agree. I can't see a rational, sane, atheist sitting around waiting for "G.O.D." to deliver miracles on Demand in Step 7. And restoring people to sanity in Step 2. And talking to them and giving them work orders and power in Step 11. "Nobody" gives you all of those things?

Danger Will Robinson! Does not compute!

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             orange@orange-papers.info        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     "Waiting for God to provide is a good way to become
**     very spiritual and very gone from this worldly scene."
**       ==  John Phipps

More Letters

Previous Letters

Last updated 9 March 2013.
The most recent version of this file can be found at http://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters341.html