[ Link here = http://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters283.html#Wprices ]

Date: Fri, January 13, 2012 3:15 pm     (answered 18 November 2011)
From: "Wprices"
Subject: Very interesting essay. Not that I agree or disagree, but it is well written.

Sent from my iPad

Thanks.

And have a good day now.

== Orange

*             orange@orange-papers.info        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     "A classic is a book which people praise and don't read."
**       ==  Mark Twain (1835-1910) [Samuel Langhorne Clemens]
**             American author, humorist

[The previous letter from Admin is here.]

[ Link here = http://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters283.html#Admin ]

Date: Fri, January 10, 2012 8:47 am     (answered 12 January 2012)
From: "admin"
Subject: Re: The Funny Spirituality of Bill Wilson and A.A.

> Hello Admin,
> My reply is in the attached web page.
> Have a good day now.
> == Orange
>
> <ans2admin.html>

I will never open your virus attachment.
http://forthepeople.us.com/

I never send viruses. That would be a Federal felony.
It would also be impolite.
I just send the same HTML-formatted response as I post in the letters section online.

If you are afraid to read the email, you can read the same reply online, here:

http://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters281.html#admin

Have a good day now.
== Orange

*          orange@orange-papers.info       *
*      AA and Recovery Cult Debunking     *
*      http://www.orange-papers.info/      *
*    http://www.orange-papers.info/forum   *
** "Now I know what it's like to be high on life.
** It isn't as good, but my driving has improved."
** == Nina, on "Just Shoot Me", 13 Jan 2006.

Date: Fri, January 13, 2012 7:59 pm     (answered 18 January 2012)
From: "admin"
Subject: Re: The Funny Spirituality of Bill Wilson and A.A.

Wow. Another Jew who claims not to be a Jew. How original. The first Jew giveaway what. (Not a shred of dignity.) That is a hallmark of the Jews' psychopathic obsession with money.

Mr. Jew, you are trying to denigrate and weaken Alcoholics Anonymous. It is that simple. It is a very successful, popular, and powerful movement with millions of followers, and that is a threat to the Zionist fantasy that Jews will rule the world. Although you have achieved a small measure of success, in the end you will not succeed. The beginning of your downfall is at hand. The veil of illusion is cracking. You cannot win this race as time is not on your side.

While we Americans were sleeping — stupid and unaware as babies — your lying scamming filth came crawling in the night to steal our country, our freedoms, our very lives. (Yes, we know how you make fun of us naive, gullible Americans.) We trusted you and you have betrayed us. Mr. Orange Jew, can you not feel the faint sting of the backlash? Can you not hear it whispering to you?

WWBY
An ordinary American.

Hello again, Admin,

So you call everybody who disagrees with you "a Jew"? Wow. No wonder you are so paranoid. That means that there are Jews in front of you, and Jews behind you, and Jews above you, and Jews below you. And there are Jews on the left, and Jews on the right. You are hopelessly outnumbered.

And strangely enough, at the same time, you claim to be a regular American. I assure you that you are not.

(By the way, I'm actually a WASP. And I'm turning blond in my old age as my Swedish genes kick in. Yes, I'm really part Aryan. And part Anglo-Saxon. And part Irish. But, unlike Adolf Hitler, no Jewish blood.)

Your defense of Alcoholics Anonymous is just plain untrue. Alcoholics Anonymous has not "saved millions" or "helped millions". Alcoholics Anonymous kills more people than it saves. We've been through that again and again. Look here for the actual A.A. failure rate: The Effectiveness of the Twelve-Step Treatment

And if you dispute those numbers, would you care to tell us what the real A.A. success rate is? Please answer this one simple question with some documented facts:

== Orange

*             orange@orange-papers.info        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     Attention Mel Gibson!  Paging Mel Gibson!  One of your friends has
**     gotten out of his cage. Will you please herd him back into "The Roomz"?
**     Thank you.

[ Link here = http://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters283.html#RSN ]

Date: Sat, January 14, 2012 9:21 pm     (answered 18 January 2012)
From: "R.S.N."
Subject: Too funny

Your site cracks me up.

The amount of misinformation and your obvious lack of understanding of A.A. and alcoholism is laughable.

Hello RSN,

You are speaking in sweeping generalities, supported by nothing. Would you like to discuss specific facts? How about:

1. The actual failure rate of Alcoholics Anonymous?
   (Look here: The Effectiveness of the Twelve-Step Treatment.)

2. The pro-Nazi cult religion origin of the 12 Steps?
   (Look here: The Religious Roots of A.A. and the Twelve Steps.)

3. The insanity of Bill Wilson?
   (Look here: The Funny Spirituality of Bill Wilson and A.A..)

4. The cultish nature of the Alcoholics Anonymous organization?
   (Look here: The Cult Test, and Alcoholics Anonymous as a Cult.)

== Orange

*             orange@orange-papers.info        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**    "Sometimes I wonder whether the world is being run by smart people
**    who are putting us on or by imbeciles who really mean it."
**        ==  Mark Twain (Samuel Longhorne Clemens) 1835—1910

Date: Fri, January 20, 2012 4:28 pm     (answered 23 January 2012)
From: "R. S. N."
Subject: Re: Too funny

Actually... I've read enough of your stuff to be absolutely ok with my previous comment.

]R[

Ah, no facts, no figures, no data, nothing?

Nothing but a slur?

That isn't much of a defense of Alcoholics Anonymous.

Have a good day.

== Orange

*             orange@orange-papers.info        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     "When the story becomes the truth, the actual facts just get in the way."
**     All Things Considered, NPR, 12:54 PM 2011.10.25

[ Link here = http://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters283.html#Joe_D ]

Date: Sun, January 15, 2012 8:32 pm     (answered 18 January 2012)
From: "Joe D."
Subject: brainwashed people

Just wanted to say that i'm really enjoying your site. I had been in and out of aa for about 10 years now and im finally done with it; after reading the book "The Real AA" as well as your site, I now have written evidence confirming what i came to suspect: that staying sober/clean is about taking personal responsibility and growing-up. The whole disease concept is like a crutch: although cult members like to say "You're not responsible for your disease, but you are responsible for your recovery."

What i hated about these brainwashed people is that any time a person did anything good in life, the credit went to God. But if they did something bad, then it was the individual (He took his will back). That makes absolutely no sense. Just like if a person gets sober without going to AA, members say that person wasn't a real alcoholic, regardless of all evidence to the contrary. And even if they recognize somebody staying sober outside of AA, they assume that the person is miserable. How arrogant is that?

Last but not least, no horror story, but i couldn't stand the standard answers from people when i had any issue in my life: pray, ask God for help, call your sponsor. What a bunch of crap. Thanks for telling the truth. Thoroughly.

Joe D

Hello Joe,

Thanks for the letter and the thanks, and I'm glad to hear that the light bulb is on in your head.

Yes, this: "any time a person did anything good in life, the credit went to God. But if they did something bad, then it was the individual" is a con game. They are playing, "Heads I win, tails you lose." It's bad enough when a criminal uses that trick to cheat people out of their money, but using it to cheat people out of their minds and their lives in unforgiveable.

And of course, claiming that somebody who quits drinking without A.A. wasn't "a real alcoholic" is The Real Scotsman Fallacy. They try to pull that one on me too, often. It's funny how they alternate between declaring that I'm just a "Dry Drunk with a Resentment", and then claiming that I wasn't actually a real alcoholic at all, because I quit drinking without A.A.

Which leads to: "Being miserable outside of A.A.". Ha. I'm enjoying life more than ever. I'm not going to meetings every week and complaining to everybody in general about being unhappy, and complaining about nearly getting "triggered", and bemoaning how hard it is to stay sober. Nope. I go to the beach and lay in the sun and feed the goslings. (Well, I did during the summer. It's a little snowy right now.)

Have a good day.

== Orange

*             orange@orange-papers.info        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     "If I saw a man beating a tied up horse, I could
**     not prove it was wrong, but I'd know it was wrong."
**       ==  Mark Twain

May 25, 2009, Monday: Carmen and siblings Carmen is the one in the middle. Blondie is on the right, and Sam on the left. Carmen and siblings Dragon Boat galley slaves [More gosling photos below, here.]

[ Link here = http://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters283.html#Jeffrey_S ]

Date: Mon, January 16, 2012 1:14 am     (answered 18 January 2012)
From: "Jeffrey S."
Subject: You anti AA Page

I just stumbled across your AA 12-sep bashing website. I have only read a small portion so far, mainly the 12 AA big secrets. I cannot believe the garbage I have read so far. There are so many things you say there that aren't true that I don't know where to begin. Where in the world are you getting this information from? It is so incredibly wrong and untrue. I am going to mention just a couple of things as an example but trust me -there is much more.ure

Hello Jeffrey,

Thank you for the letter. This should be interesting.

You write:

"Step Three teaches a lifestyle of infantile narcissism and passive dependency, where A.A. members turn control of their wills and their lives over to "the care of God as we understood Him", and then they expect God to take care of them and run their lives for them, and solve all their problems, and wait on them hand and foot, and do all of the hard work for them from then on..."

Say what? Where are you getting this from? We expect God to do everything for us..waitin Your g on us hand and foot? Do all the hard work? None of that is true. AA does not teach such a thing! Where are you getting this garbage from? We don't believe or teach any of that!

Haven't you ever heard of The Promises in the Big Book? It's a list of the things that "God" is supposedly going to do for you (if you practice Bill Wilson's religion enough):

It sure is neat to have a Fairy Godmother with a Magic Wand.

Here is another one: "...forcing members to make lists of all of their sins and flaws, and "defects of character" and "moral shortcomings", and confess every intimate dirty little secret to another A.A. member who isn't even ordained clergy, or even sworn to secrecy."t

First of all, nobody "forces" a member to do anything. AA gives suggestions and advice. There is no forcing of anything. You seem to be referring to the 5th step here where we admit to God and another human being the nature of our wrongs. This can be said to ANYONE. It doesn't have to be an AA sponsor or member. It can indeed be a minister, priest, a friend, counselor, or even a total stranger. Nor is it about telling every dirty little secret. It about the things we did in the past that causes us to carry around a lot of guilt and shame. It is about getting all that off your back, psychologically speaking, Once again, no one makes or forces a member to do or say anything.

Baloney. Suggestions? Like this "suggestion"?

Unless each A.A. member follows to the best of his ability our suggested [Bill Wilson's required] Twelve Steps to recovery, he almost certainly signs his own death warrant. His drunkenness and dissolution are not penalties inflicted by people in authority; they result from his personal disobedience to spiritual principles [Bill Wilson's cult religion].
Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions, William G. Wilson, page 174.

And of course you are forgetting about all of the people who are sentenced to A.A. by a judge or parole officer or probation officer or so-called "counselor" or "therapist". The Triennial Surveys have revealed that nearly two-thirds of the membership were coerced, pressured, or forced into A.A.

AA and the 12 steps are firstly about getting sober and the rest is getting into the psychological and spiritual roots behind the alcohol abuse. Many members chose to see counselors and psychiatrists if they choose to. Abstaining from alcohol is just the beginning.

No, the 12 Steps are about brainwashing new recruits into being true believer members of a cult religion. That is what Dr. Frank Buchman developed those practices for, and that is what they still do. Frank Buchman is also the man who called his cult practices "spiritual principles". Bill Wilson just copied all of that. (Look here.)

The biggest lie you state is that AA is a cult. There is nothing even remotely cult like about AA. To say there is is totally asinine. Where do you get all this crap from? AA is a spiritual program not a religious one. We have many members who remain agnostics and even atheists! Your higher power can be anything you chose. For many the group itself is their higher power. What pray tell is your definition of a cult? It obviously is different from mine and the meaning given in any dictionary. The Branch Davidians led by David Koresch was a cult as well as Heavens Gate or Jim Jones and the People's Temple. AA is not a cult and to even suggest it is ludicrous.

You say that you have not read much of the web site yet. You should go read The Cult Test, and Alcoholics Anonymous as a Cult. Read the entire thing, both the questions and the answers. A.A. is most assuredly a cult, just like lots of other cults.

Oh, and NO, step 11 is not about channelling God and getting psychic orders, My God, man. Where are you getting this crap from? None of this is true. I have never ever read such a distorted view of AA and the 12 steps as what is on your website, You have no idea what you are talking about,

Again, you are in denial. Of course Step 11 is about the occult practice of channeling. Bill Wilson even bragged about all of the ghosts and evil spirits that he talked to. Such "receiving spiritual radiograms" was another thing that Bill Wilson copied from Dr. Frank Buchman's Oxford Group cult religion. (Heck, Bill Wilson copied everything from the Oxford Group, or from other previous sobriety societies, but most of it came from the Oxford Group.)

Check out:

1. Frank Buchman's followers "receive Guidance" from God in their "Quiet Times".
2. The heresy of dabbling in the occult.
3. Bill Wilson talks to some more ghosts during his "morning meditation".

So, what? Don't you do Step 11? Don't you hear any Messages?

AA has helped milllions of people remaqin sober and continues to do so. That is 2why it is sttill around It works IF you work it,

No, A.A. has not "helped millions". That is the single biggest lie that A.A. tells. The total worldwide A.A. membership is under two millions, and the vast majority of them will quit A.A. without getting sober. In fact, A.A. actually makes the problem worse. When A.A. was properly tested,

1. Dr. Brandsma found that A.A. increased binge drinking, and
2. Dr. Ditman found that A.A. increased the rate of rearrests of alcoholics, and
3. Dr. Walsh found that A.A. increased the cost of hospitalization of alcoholics.
4. And Dr. Vaillant found that A.A. increased the death rate of alcoholics. No other way of treating alcoholics produced as high a death rate.

The slogan that "It works if you work it" is just another way of saying that A.A. does not really work — you have to do the work and then A.A. gets the credit.

Date: Mon, January 16, 2012 2:17 am     (answered 18 January 2012)
From: "Jeffrey S."
Subject: By the way..

Please excuse the many typos and errors in my message to you. It is the middle of the night and I am very tired. I am also having problems with the laptop keyboard.

It is true that only a small percentage of those who try AA remain sober. It is not because the 12 steps and AA doesn't work — it is because they were not willing to work it. It is not easy and often very hard work. I speak from my own experience. Millions of people haveThey would be appaled remained sober and turned their lives around complelty and now lead happy productive lives. I see such people every day and hear them speak.

Nope, now you are just trying another standard A.A. line to avoid responsibility for failure. When somebody quits drinking, A.A. is eager to claim the credit, but when somebody does not quit drinking, A.A. members complain that "he didn't work the program right." Baloney. If A.A. really worked, then there would be no need for excuses.

I can use the same faulty logic of A.A. to proclaim that eating vanilla ice cream is a never-fails cure for alcoholism. And it makes people "very spiritual", too:

1. My Vanilla Ice Cream Program requires people to always eat vanilla ice cream whenever they feel a desire to drink alcohol. Always eat ice cream; never drink alcohol!
2. NEVER have I seen a person fail, who has thoroughly followed my path.
3. When somebody just eats ice cream instead of drinks alcohol, that proves that my wonderful program really works.
4. If somebody drinks alcohol, then he didn't follow my perfect Program, so it isn't my fault.

A.A. uses the same intellectual dishonesty.

There is a woman named Heather who's story is one of the most harrowing I have ever heard. Her story involves sexual and physical abuse, rape, homelessness, alcoholism and very serious mental health problems. Because of AA she is not only sober today and mentally healthy, she went back to school and got not only a Masters degree but also a Ph.D. She now works as an addiction counselor. Why doesn't your website mention people like her? And hers is just one out of hundreds, thousands, millions.

That is the propaganda trick called "Proof By Anecdote" — just tell a happy story that seems to prove your point. One happy woman is not "millions saved" or "millions helped". And that story is not even proof that one woman was helped by A.A. practices.

When you say, that she is sober and healthy "because of A.A.", you are making an assertion that is supported by no facts whatsoever. You might as well claim that she recovered because she improved her diet and took vitamins and got some fresh air and exercise. You are just assuming a cause-and-effect relationship where none exists. You are assuming that A.A. somehow healed her. What evidence is there that A.A. actually did anything good for her?

And actually, I'd bet that the real reason she recovered is because she quit drinking alcohol, not because she got fooled into attending the meetings of a religion.

You make it sound like AA has never helped anyone and even hurt and killed people!

Yes, A.A. has killed people. Check out:

• the horror stories.
• the suicide list.

You are so full of bull it is running out of your ears. I have never ever seen so much misinformation and lies before. You really have no idea what you are talking about.

Well, so far, you have not presented any evidence that I am wrong. You have tried a few propaganda tricks, but you have not presented any evidence that A.A. sobers up the alcoholics, or helps them in any way.

I tried getting myself sober without AA for a few decades, I tried everything under the sun. Noing worked for me. I finally had no options left but to really work the AA program. Guess what?
I have remained sober for several years now, I know memkillsbers who have been sober 20, 30 years and more. I would love for you to hear some of the stories I have — and they are success stories.

So you drank alcohol until you quit, and you drank too much for too long. Welcome to the club. So did I. There is no evidence that you quit drinking because you joined a dishonest religion.

I've heard plenty of A.A. success stories. Most of them ignore the simple fact that the person drank alcohol until he was so sick that he just had to quit drinking, so he did. Doing the practices of an old cult religion from the nineteen-thirties had nothing to do with it.

I really could go on and on about the garbage and lies on your website.

So far, you have not found one lie.

I have been in AA a number of years so I know what I am talking about.

Again, that is bad logic. Years in a cult do not make you an authority. You could more accurately say, "I've had several years of brainwashing in the cult, so I'm really thoroughly indoctrinated now, and I will immediately deny any facts that contradict my favorite beliefs."

So do the veterans of the group who share their experience strength and hope in order to help others.

You are just repeating cult slogans: "Sharing experience strength and hope." What you mean is, parrotting the standard dogma and repeating the slogans and misinformation.

We don't go around trying to recruit members into our "cult."

Good grief! Denial ain't just a river in Egypt, is it? What about Chapter 7 of the Big Book, which is the recruiting manual?

Do not be discouraged if your prospect does not respond at once. Search out another alcoholic and try again. You are sure to find someone desperate enough to accept with eagerness what you offer. We find it a waste of time to keep chasing a man who cannot or will not work with you. ... To spend too much time on any one situation is to deny some other alcoholic an opportunity to live and be happy.
The Big Book, 3rd Edition, William G. Wilson, chapter 7, "Working With Others", page 96.

What the movie did not show is the fact that Bill Wilson and Dr. Bob were really recruiting alcoholics for Dr. Frank Buchman's pro-Nazi Oxford Group cult religion. There was no "Alcoholics Anonymous" in existence in 1935, or 1936, or 1937. Bill and Bob were recruiting new victims for the Oxford Group, where they would learn that Adolf Hitler and Heinrich Himmler were really great lads.

I tried everything under the sun for a few decades.to either control my drinking or abstain. Nothing ever worked. I had no other options left but to really try my best to work the AA program...And so far it has worked.

Again, that is bad logic. (It is Post Hoc, Ergo Propter Hoc — "It happened after 'X', so it was caused by 'X'".) That is like somebody declaring that he discovered that lucky rabbits' feet are the cure for the nasty spiritual disease of "bicycleism":

"When I was a child, I was never able to ride a bicycle. I just couldn't do it. I fell down every time I tried. I was powerless over bicycles. I just kept falling down.

Then one day, Jimmy loaned me his lucky rabbit's foot, and I succeeded in staying up. I didn't fall down. That proves it: the rabbit's foot helped me to stay up on the bicycle.

Ergo: Lucky rabbits' feet make children able to ride bicycles."

Claims that the cult religion practices of A.A. somehow made people stop drinking alcohol are equally invalid.

Forcing someone into AA almost never works. You have to want to do it yourself.

Yes. YES!!! Thank you! You just declared that A.A. does not work. The alcoholics have to do the quitting themselves. They have to want it for themselves, and then they have to do it for themselves. A.A. cannot claim the credit for people quitting drinking. So much for the earlier claim that A.A. has sobered up millions. A.A. hasn't sobered up anybody. People have to sober themselves up, or they don't sober themselves up.

If you could only hear some of the stories I have and meet the members I have. Your website makes it sound like AA has never helped anybody. That is a total lie. You are clueless and your website is full of crap that is not true a all. Buddy I KNOW what AA and the 12 steps are about. I KNOW what we do and teach and what we don't. So do thousands of current members. They would be as appalled at all your misinformation and lies as I am. You can think and believe what you want to. We know the truth. You obviously don;t. I don't know what planet you are on but it sure isn't the one I and most people are. You seem to have no grasp or understanding at all regarding AA and the 12 steps. I was against AA for a long time, I eventually discovered how wrong I was about it. If you truly feel that you are correct about all the information on your site, then I strongly suggest you run to your nearest psychiatrist as you are extremely delusional.

Now you are just complaining, without any facts on your side. So let's get some facts. Please answer this one simple question that no true-believer Stepper has ever answered honestly:

== Orange

*             orange@orange-papers.info        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**    A flawed idea that AA is built upon:  The idea that a deeply flawed person
**    will cure another deeply flawed person.  A dynamic fraught with peril.
**      == Anonymous

[The next letter from Jeffrey_S is here.]

May 27, 2009, Wednesday, Downtown Portland, Waterfront Park: The Salmon Street Fountain at Waterfront Park Mount Hood Everything in this picture is on the other side of the river. I shot this across the river from the fountain with a telephoto lens. "Portland Spirit" and riverscape [The story of Carmen continues here.]

[ Link here = http://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters283.html#Hagar ]

Date: Mon, January 16, 2012 3:36 pm     (answered 18 January 2012)
From: "Hagar The Horrible"
Subject: WTF???

Sir Orange,

I have some many questions for you about this site and the whole, wtf???

• 1. Are you a mudblup? If you don't know that o.k.
• 2. Why you not nice to ppl in alcoholics menomenous?
• 3. I always drank coffee at the meeting not snake oil. Do they drink that where you come for?
• 4. You ever gone to the creation museum? It opens my eye to so many thins. They even told me I was sinning for ever drinking all the stuff I use to.
• 5. I don't not believe the horror stores you have on your site. I think you make them up.
• 6. Why does the AA have to prove it works? If it works it works and I work it I worth it, but you can't say the same.
• 7. Why do you talk about lots other silly thins on yur site like Africa and Jews and Commmandments and Cults and Buddists and Blue Footed Boobys?
• 8. Do you really thnk doctors will every listen to your stupid claims that cause to harm to hurt people who leave AA?
• 9. Why don't you not believe ppl who say they got good sponsors? I got a good one that tells me beer and licker are sins and drags my sorry ass to church on Sunday to get my ass straitened out with my HP. They batised me three times already in a year. And AA not against Christianism either. All the ppl in my AA are Christians.
• 10. Do you think the Fonz ever went to AA?
• 11. Why you think ppl drink if they can stop it all themself?
• 12. I in secret still like to take the drink which is while I wrote to you with a unreal name, I don't not want my sponsor to find out. But what if the judge makes me go to the stuff anyway? I for real don't no if I like AA or not but my sponsor said you a bad man.

I appologize for my bad writing. I want you to answer me and I hop you will. I am a little and more than a little while I was writing this.

Here you are and here I am,
Hagar the Horrible

Hello Hagar,

Thank you for the letter and the questions.

And the answers are:

1. No, I'm not a mudblup.

2. Actually, I am nice to people in Alcoholics Anonymous. I denounce the cult, not the people who are its victims.

3. I also drank coffee, not snake oil. Unfortunately, a lot of other people obviously drank the snake oil. You could tell that from the crazy things that they said.

4. No, I've never gone to a "creation museum". That sounds like a real nightmare.

5. No, I don't make up the horror stories. My imagination isn't nearly good enough to do that. If I could really just imagine all of that stuff, then I could make a lot of money writing scripts for Hollywood horror movies.

6. The question is not "Why does the AA have to prove it works?"
   The question is, "Why do they lie and say that it works great when it doesn't?

7. RE: "Why do you talk about lots other silly thins on yur site like Africa and Jews and Commmandments and Cults and Buddists and Blue Footed Boobys?"

   Because all of that stuff is connected to what A.A. is. Except for the Blue Footed Boobys. I don't remember talking about them.

8. RE: Do you really thnk doctors will every listen to your stupid claims that cause to harm to hurt people who leave AA?

   Yes, and many are listening now.

9. You say that you got a good sponsor who is dragging you to church and indoctrinating you in Christianity. Ummm, wasn't A.A. supposed to be a religion-neutral quit-drinking program?

10. RE: Do you think the Fonz ever went to AA?

    No idea.

11. RE: Why you think ppl drink if they can stop it all themself

    That is actually a big, complicated question, but I'll answer it as simply as I can: People drink alcohol because they want to. They like how it feels. When they do not quit drinking it, it's because they do not want to quit drinking it. They can quit, but they don't want to.

    Then, often, people get very, very sick from drinking too much alcohol, and then they decide to quit. Then they do. Some people have to experiment and quit and backslide a few times before they really decide to quit and stay quit.

    And unfortunately, some other people never decide to quit drinking. They may say that they want to quit, but they don't really want to quit. They just wish that the pain would stop so that they could drink more. They are often the ones who die from alcohol.

12. About you nibbling and having a few: I have no problem with that if it isn't a problem for you.

    That is, are you one of the people who can "just have a few", and then go to bed? Or do you want to drink huge amounts once you get started? That is what determines whether you should totally quit, or can just cut down and be moderate in your drinking.

    Personally, I'm one of those people who never could be moderate. I can totally quit drinking and stay sober, and have for the last 11 years, or I can drink myself to death, and I nearly did that too. But I can't seem to just drink moderately and only have a few now and then. I tried it for many years, and it never worked for me. So now I just don't drink any alcohol at all, none whatsoever, and I'm fine with that.

    But whether moderate drinking will work for you is another matter. People are different. There isn't any one answer for everybody.

    Lastly, no, I am not a bad man. I just believe in telling the truth. That makes some people very unhappy — those people who don't want to hear the truth, that is.

== Orange

*             orange@orange-papers.info        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     Protect your health. Without it you face a serious handicap
**     for success and happiness.
**       ==  Harry F. Banks

[The next letter from Hagar is here.]

[ Link here = http://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters283.html#Rational_R ]

Date: Mon, January 16, 2012 9:59 pm     (answered 19 January 2012)
From: "Rational S."
Subject:

Please do not use my email adress or real name on your fourm. You can refer to me as Rational S.

Hello Orange.

Thank you for all the work that you do. I read your letters all the time, and it helps me with my new outlook on recovery which is based upon Rational Recovery, and away from the cult practices of 12 steps programs. That being written, I know that you welcome all comments, debate and criticisims to your page. Overall I agree with you 100 percent on your view of AA, and the need for people to find their own self to recover. In the letter 281 Andrew S. subject AA Problems, for the most part I agree to your case against him, but I feel that he sort of made one minor point in his letter that I would like you to clarify your position.

In the letter Adrew made the point that "FDR and Winston Churchill also gave people an illusory confidence because this is the universal technique of nationhood and war." You responded,

I totally reject your argument. FDR and Winston Churchill did not give people "illusory confidence". Winston Churchill's "Blood Sweat and Tears" speech is a masterpiece of public speaking, but there was nothing illusory about it, was there? He wasn't lying to them and feeding them a load of untrue cult propaganda. He was telling the truth. Churchill rallied the British people and gave them hope and led them to victory. But he did not lie to them or deceive them or give them "illusory confidence".

Are you sugesting that FDR and Churchill were not guilty of telling lies, and using fear and propaganda techniques? When Britian Declared war on Germany, it did so allegedly to free the Polish People becasue of the Naked agression that Germany displayed on Poland, however Stalin, who occupied the other half of Poland was left unhindered in his conquest. Also note that Churchill had many Polish Nationals who were fighting in the allied army, and were given personal promises by Churchill Himself that they would not be occupied by the Russians after the war, but he lied to them, and even assured them that the communist would not take over, even after the Yalta Confrence.

Roosevelt was also no angel. He won the election in 1940 with the slogan "He kept us out of war", but based upon everything that we know about him he did everything in his power behind the scenes to provoke a conflict with Germany to enter the war. The oil embargo against Japan was a major provocation. There is much speculation as to what Roosevelt knew in advance to Pearl Harbor, but what we do know is that he did everything behind the curtains to get America involved in the war.

How about Roosevelts reference to Stalin as "Uncle Joe", was this not Propaganda? How come the press never reported about the 7-20 million Ukranian and Russian Farmers who starved to death in the Soviet caused famines of the 1930's? How come the press at the time accused the Germans of killing all the officers of the Katyn Forest in Poland, when the International Red cross knew without a shadow of a doubt that it was a crime commited by our Communist Russian allies?

What about the firebombing of Dresden? When the Nuclear bomb was dropped on Hiroshima, there is a radio Adress given by Truman, declaring that the bomb was droped on a Military site. Was this not a lie? How about the maps that showed how the Germans and the Japaneses were going to invade South America, and then eventually overtake America? Also note how the Germans in the east who towards the end of the war that wanted to surrender to Brittish and the Americans, but were forced to keep on fighting becasue of the agreements that were made with Stalin.

I hope that I am not taking your words out of context, but you give this implication that Churchill and Roosevelt were just swell guys, and almost angelic, but a case can be made that they were just warmongering politicians who history is kind to becasue they were the victors.

Again, for the most part I agree with your comments, and your case against Adrew S, but I feel that he does make a good point when he brings up Churchill for the reasons that I outlined above.

Hello Rational S.,

Thanks for the letter. You make a bunch of valid historical points. I didn't mean to imply that Roosevelt and Churchill were angels. I especially agree about the betrayal of the Polish people. That was unforgiveable and unjustifiable.

About the propaganda tricks, yes, they all did it, although I think that the Nazi propaganda was far worse. I mean, yes, all sides used racism and nationalism to demonize the other side, but even the American hatred of the Japanese, and herding Japanese decendants into concentration camps did not begin to match herding the Jews into Auschwitz and gassing them.

You are quite correct that the leaders on both sides lied and deceived. Sometimes, they felt that they had to, for military security reasons. My favorite Roosevelt lie was, when he was asked about Jimmy Doolittle's raid on Tokyo, Roosevelt told the newsmen that the bombers took off from Shangrila, a mythical land in the Himalayas that was featured in a Broadway musical. The lie was actually pointless, because the Japanese generals already knew where the American bombers came from. They clearly recognized that the Americans did the same thing to them as the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor: launch bombers from aircraft carriers.

Still, the fact remains that the "hope" that Hitler gave the German people was false, and what Roosevelt and Churchill gave their people was not. And it wasn't just a matter of who was lucky enough to win the war. I was just reading a book about the fall of Berlin, the last days of the Third Reich. The way that Hitler refused to be realistic, and refused to tell the truth to the German people, and insisted on fighting to the last man and boy is incredible. Even in the very last days, when anybody with half a brain could see that it was over, Hitler and Goebbels were going on the radio and exhorting the German people to fight on (and die for Hitler). And they sent troops of boy scouts (Hitlerjugend) out to fight against the Russian Army. You know what happened. So much for "hope".

The reason that I rejected Andrew's argument so strongly is because Alcoholics Anonymous boosters often try to claim that A.A. produces some kind of wonderful "placebo effect" that helps alcoholics to quit drinking. They claim that just giving the alcoholics "hope" makes them quit drinking. In other words, feeding the alcoholics a lot of untrue fairy tales is good for them.

Prof. Dr. George E. Vaillant even went so far as to write in his book The Natural History of Alcoholism: Causes, Patterns, and Paths to Recovery that A.A. produced no improvement in the sobriety of alcoholics, and it just produced an "appalling" death rate, but then he went on to rave about the wonderful "placebo effect" of Alcoholics Anonymous:

In other words, if we can but combine the best placebo effects of acupuncture, Lourdes, or Christian Science with the best attitude change inherent in the evangelical conversion experience, we may be on our way to an effective alcoholism program.

== Orange

*             orange@orange-papers.info        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     "You are doing a great disservice to those seeking sobriety
**     (by telling the truth).  Everybody knows that those disgusting
**     feeble-minded alcoholics cannot handle the truth."
**     "Oh, and we are working real hard to remove the stigma of alcoholism."

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