Date: Fri, November 11, 2005
From: "Linda L."
Subject: Twelve Step Snake Oil

*Dear Mr./Ms. A. Orange,*
**
*I have never read such garbage anywhere and I've heard a lot of reasons why people don't like the "12 Steps". It's obvious you have never been involved in a 12 step program of any kind. Otherwise you wouldn't make these blatantly angry statements about them. I happen to know that these steps have saved hundreds, thousands of lives because they are what people need. I'm one of those Adult Children of an Alcoholic whose life was saved by the ACoA 12 steps. I attended meetings for 16 years; not a lifetime as you suggest. That's only for those people in AA who don't go beyond the 12 steps and really look at themselves and their lives. *
**

Hi Linda,

Thanks for the letter.

16 years of 12-Step meetings, and you are still that angry? What happened to "Serene and Grateful"?

You claim that ACOA has saved thousands of lives? Where is the evidence for that? I mean real evidence, not just hearsay or proof by anecdote.

Please, this is an important point. In fact, it is the whole ball game. The 12-Step organizations routinely make grand sweeping declarations of great success, a zillion lives saved... But when we carefully examine those claims, they always fall apart, and degenerate into, "Well, I *really* like the meetings. They make me feel special."

*My advice to anyone is don't knock it until you've tried it.

That is terrible advice.
"Don't knock Jim Jones's cyanide koolaid until you've tried it. Heck, it might be good for you and make you spiritual. You never know..."

That advice is quintessential alcoholism. Want to introduce an innocent young person to drugs and alcohol? Just say, "Heck, don't knock it before you've tried it."

One of the nice things about being an intelligent human being is that we can learn from other people's mistakes. We don't have to try everything and make all of the mistakes ourselves.

We can see what happened to the Moonies and the Scientologists and the Hari Krishnas and the Heaven's Gate cult and the Branch Davidians and Jim Jones's Peoples' Temple, and then say, "Hmmm. I don't think I want to go there."

We don't *have to* try it before we knock it.

Likewise, I can also look at what happened to the Steppers and then say, "No way am I going to waste 16 years of my life in that rubber room."

I know some therapist who say it's just another addiction. I also know these therapist don't like the competition and are afraid they'll lose their clients. Which of course is not true. Most people in 12 Step programs recognize that they need both. Each has immense benefits in helping those of us who recognize that our lives can be better. Denial is a natural human way of protecting ourselves. I wonder what your denial is protecting you from.*

About, "Denial is a natural human way of protecting ourselves." You should look at yourself. Don't you notice how non-linear you go when someone says that Steppism is a cult? (One to which you gave 16 years of your life...)

Don't you notice how you have to rationalize that the counselors are criticizing your addiction to the 12-Step cult only because "these therapists don't like the competition and are afraid they'll lose their clients"? Talk about somebody being in denial.

And the Steppers have no monopoly on "recognizing that our lives can be better."

What I criticize in the Snake Oil web page is how people's lives do not get better as a result of practicing Steppism.

You said that "Each has immense benefits in helping those of us who recognize that our lives can be better."
Where do you get any evidence that years of practicing the 12 Steps gives people "benefits"? What the Snake Oil web page is about is how the 12-Step quack medicine does just the opposite: it hurts people, rather than giving them benefits.

How can you even think that making Children of Alcoholics list and confess all of their sins (Steps 4 and 5) is going to somehow fix the lingering injuries from child abuse? What a bizarre, twisted, guilt-inducing cult religion. What are those unfortunate children supposed to confess? Their poor choice of parents?

That guilt-induction routine is enough to drive some people to suicide.
How many suicides have you had in your groups, in your 16 years of membership in the 12-Step cult?

So, really, just what benefits are you talking about?
And please don't give me vague grand generalities like, "telling us that our lives can be better..."

You've had 16 years of Steppism, and you are apparently still in counseling, and you haven't recovered, so precisely how did the 12-Step dance improve your life over the last 16 years?

**
*I do hope the author A. Orange reads this as it is written for him.*

*Sincerely,*
*Linda L.*

Linda, your wish is granted. This is the real Agent Orange talking to you.

I hope you recover some day.
Get out of the Roomz. Get a life.
In the mean time, have a good day anyway.

== Orange

*                  Agent Orange               *
*             orange@orange-papers.info        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
** And the believers said, "If you want what we
** have, and are willing to go to any length to
** get it, then, here, drink this koolaid."

Date: Sun, November 13, 2005
Subject: Thank you

Dear AO,

You are absolutely right — I am in the fight for my life. I am a mom of two, married for 30 years and decided to stop my abuse of prescription opiates. A catastrophic event did not lead me to this decision — no death, no loss of job, no family member threatening me. I had simply had enough.

Finding help was the problem. Hindsight tells me I really should have consulted my physician — he provided none of my prescriptions. However, for over one year I searched online, specifically for a doctor that treated with Suboxone. After screwing up the courage, I called some of the doctors in my area on the SAMSI list. Either there was a long waiting list or the doctors were not authorized as the government website suggests. One doctor in another county (see, the private numbers of doctors were listed) told me I was SOL and to consider admitting myself to a rehab unit. To shorten this story — after one year of looking for a doctor to help me, I found one, and one that was authorized to treat with Sub, and one not on *the* list.

As you are probably aware Suboxone takes away the craving — a true miracle drug. I realize I could be on it for life — the doctor put me in control of the timeline to taper, if ever. He rightfully insisted (required by Federal guidelines) that I seek a therapy, which I did. I found a licensed substance abuse counselor that insists I participate in AA (or NA) — and that has been my sole source of anxiety since I quit using one week ago. One point I identified in your "papers" — I am in the fight for my life and I must be very careful who I entrust to treat me and my mental health.

I consider myself fairly astute and have had zero exposure to AA. *Something* (that little cartoon character on my shoulder, perhaps) told me to look into AA. I went to their "cafe" website. The very first statement that rubbed me the wrong way was that I had to accept I am powerless. Bullshit! As I read on about AA, there is more and more that that builds conflict within myself about the attendance of such meetings. Again, I am in my very early stages of recovery, and the only anxiety I am feeling is the result of being coerced into AA.

I also see something else that is very dangerous here. My therapist (I can see after one meeting I am going to have to change) is an alcoholic that has been in recovery for 20 years. (You know where this is going). She did say I could join any other support group, it didn't have to be AA. As a licensed SAC, there is no doubt in my mind she knows there are no SMART, SOS, WFS or LifeRing in our area. She even used the AA jargon in my first session, "walk the walk" or "take what you can use." So, AA's tentacles have reached into our professional medical community to guide those when they at their weakest. This is so very lazy of our medical community.

Hi Sylvia,

Thanks for the letter. I'm glad to hear that you are getting it together. Sounds good.

You can get LifeRing on the Internet. They have online meetings --
http://www.unhooked.com/chat/Chat.html — the Unhooked chat,
and also
http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/LSRmail/ — a Yahoo group, "LifeRing Secular Recovery"

There are also now online chat groups at WFS — Women For Sobriety:
http://www.womenforsobriety.org/news_conferences/chat.html

I did read with interest your listed benefits of AA. The benefits listed are not anything that cannot be found anywhere else. I will choose to seek those benefits without the strings.

True.

I have joined the online group at SMART and may even look into WFS and LifeRing. These support groups deal focus on cravings, something I am fortunate enough not to experience — at least not yet. I will take from these groups the opportunity to learn more about myself, to grow stronger. Your work has given me the courage not to yield to demands of others. For that, I say thank you.

Online SMART sounds good. And thanks for the compliment.

sylvia s.

The one thing I would add is, "Especially read about the Lizard Brain Addiction Monster, if you haven't already." You have already quit. Now you need to defeat that little monster who keeps telling you that it's okay to just have a few now... Understanding how he works and what he does has been a huge help for me. Quitting is one thing; surviving the mind games that come after the withdrawal is something else.

Take care of yourself, and don't hesitate to write back, and I'll try to respond even sooner.

Have a good day.

== Orange

Date: Mon, November 14, 2005 5:44 pm
From: "Diane P."
Subject: Thank You

I just found your site and what a relief! I walked away from NA and AA years ago and have been sober since 1991. When I walked away I thought I would face the horrors promised me by AA/NA members. For over 20 years I bounced in and out of the program being told if I did not do things their way I would get drunk or high, I damn sure did! Once I walked away I was scared and thought I would be attacked by drugs and alcohol, but I eventually became more comfortable with myself and my own thoughts, not those that were being drummed into my head.

I am completing my bachelor of science in Community and Human Services with a concentration in counseling. I worked with a woman who was a big shot with the alcohol council for NYS and one question she asked me was what I would find difficult when counseling people. I told her I would find it hard to send every substance abuser to 12 step groups because that is just the way it is. She agreed somewhat, but I know substance abuse counseling as a career is not for me, I would never ever demand anyone attend something that is not right for them.

I look forward to reading your whole site. From what I have read so far I think you deserve some kind of award!

Diane P.

Hi Diane,

Thanks for all of the compliments, and congratulations on your years of success.

I am troubled by the idea that you should not be a substance abuse counselor because you don't want to send people to 12-Step groups. We need more people like you in the "recovery industry", not less. Right now, there are so many fools that know nothing except "Go to meetings, get a sponsor, and work the Steps".

Did you read the introduction, where I learned that my Stepper counselor was snorting cocaine and screwing his step-children while he taught us how to be "spiritual"? That's your competition. You can hardly do worse. Now go out there and beat the pants off of the competition! (Sorry for the pun.)

And have a good day.

Orange

*                  Agent Orange               *
*             orange@orange-papers.info        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
** Foisting ineffective quack medicine on sick people is not
** a wonderful noble act of self-sacrifice to help others;
** it is the reprehensible behavior of a damned fool.

Date: Wed, November 16, 2005
Subject: Thanks

Your website is superb and has been a great help to me in debunking the utter nonsense I spent two years believing in.

Thanks for the hard work.
John C.

Hi John,

Thanks for the thanks, and you have a good day too.

== Orange

Date: Wed, November 16, 2005
From: "Rob B."
Subject: hello

I've been reading your website. I was in CODA for 14 months and it was one of the worst experiences in my life. I reject 12 step theology and I totally reject the theory that any behavior (including alcoholism) is a disease.

I am a practicing catholic, and I've voted Republican for the last 15 years.

A majority of what you have written I agree with. Some of the political jabs I don't.

I will ask you to do something if you can. Find a consevative, traditional christian or catholic website find out who to contact and send them an email with one simple question:

"Do you believe that alcoholism and other addictive behaviors are a disease?"

The answers I believe will most undoubtedly be NO!

(There are liberal christian and catholics who believe it is but, I don't believe they are in any way the majority.)

I also sent an email to the AMA asking this:

this is their answer:

I thought you might find this useful. I'm gonna try to look into it.

Your thoughts

Rob

Wow Rob,

Thanks for a neat letter. It never occurred to me to write to the AMA and bug them for an explanation of their "disease theory of alcoholism".

Their treatment of you was disingenuous, to put it mildly, if not downright dishonest. Another word that comes to mind is "evasive". Your correspondent basically just tried bury you in irrelevant garbage and give you the run-around, and then to shoo you away and send you over to the American Psychiatric Association, rather than to honestly answer your question.

I am still wading through the papers that Mr. Yoast referred to on the AMA and NIAAA web sites. He sure didn't supply a simple, clear easy-to-find definition of "alcoholism, the disease".

Mr. Yoast seemed to be quite happy to change the subject and go on and on about depression, which you did not ask about, but he never defined "alcoholism". (That is the propaganda and debating trick of "Divert Attention Away From the Point" It's also the politician's technique of "Answer a question that was not asked, to avoid answering the embarassing question that was asked.")

Nor did Mr. Yoast answer your questions about those other "12-Step diseases", other than to say that "they had no policy".

Why didn't he cut and paste a simple concise definition of alcoholism while he was cutting and pasting all of that irrelevant stuff about depression?

One very interesting fact that I did stumble across on the A.M.A. web site was this statement in the history of the AMA:

== Orange

LATER UPDATE: 16 JUNE 2006:

I got the full text of the article from a local hospital's research library, and it didn't add anything. The rest of the article just explained their rationalizations for that definition. The entire "definition of the disease of alcoholism" was accurately quoted in the synopsis.

Also see this letter for another response from the AMA.

Date: Wed, November 16, 2005
From: "Kim M."
Subject: More Straight/Sembler/Newton info

Thought you might find this interesting. It seems our "small" story may be picking up steam. Granted they may not be the 'mainstream' media YET, but hopefully we're getting there. I refer quite a few people to your site and they're amazed at what starts to unravel in their minds once they start reading. I hope you do follow ups on Miller Newton/Mel Sember (and his wife Ms. Ambassadorable as Jeb proclaimed her to be for her work with "troubled teens". Thanks again for keeping the story out there!! Every little bit helps!!!/

Hello again, Kim. It's nice to hear from you again.

Yeh, lots of good links. I'll definitely post this on the web site.

http://alternet.org/story/27725/

blog with a lot of us writing in...
http://radioinsidescoop.com/mt-posts-archive/000506.html

http://www.gorenfeld.net/john/

This Bush Crony Has Blood on His Hands!
http://radioinsidescoop.com/mt-posts-archive/000504.html | Main
http://www.radioinsidescoop.com/mt-posts-current | Debate Monday
http://radioinsidescoop.com/mt-posts-archive/000508.html

*                  Agent Orange               *
*             orange@orange-papers.info        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
** Gandalf said, "The demons of the darkness howl in
** pain when you shine the light of truth on them."

Date: Thu, November 17, 2005
Subject: My Own Experience

When I went to Iraq (compliments of the Arkansas Army National Guard), October 2003, I attended my last meeting, the day before I left. Did I get any cards or letters from them? No way! After writing to my group several times while I was there, I gave up on them. I did, however, get a lot of letters and packages from people that I did not know, none in AA. I got back from Iraq March 2005. I did see one person that attended the same meetings I attended before I left. She ignored me.

I then found out why, through a person that had attended the same meeting but stopped going. They were mad because I was getting married when I got back. This is no joke! There seems to be an anti-relationship bias in AA now.

I have been clean and sober now for ten years. I can hardly be considered a new comer. I did it all, including helping wet drunks get into detox and hospitals (I still do this). I no longer attend AA, but I still try to stay in contact with the people that I have tried to help and I am someone they can talk to, when they need an ear to listen. I no longer evangelize the 12 steps, but I still try to help others, which, I suppose, is a good way to stay sober.

My history is this: Porno, gambling, alcohol, drugs (legal and illegal), family history of alcohol and drug addiction, cult addiction, etc. You name it, and if it wasted my time, effort, money, and energy, I did it.

In retrospect, I remember the meetings I went to and heard some fantastic 'spiritual' stuff, yet many times these people who said that stuff, were drunk, high, dead from a heroine over-dose, or had commited suicide in a matter of weeks. And some of these were circuit speakers and 'pillars' of the recovery community.

I think that the secret to my success of staying sober in AA was not the steps (except for the part of helping others), but being around others that were also at least staying sober.

John M.
Pineville, Missouri

Hi John,

Thanks for the letter and the story. It says a lot. And congratulations on your sobriety.

And as a fellow veteran, I also have to say to the public,

      "The Republicans who control Congress are really screwing over the vets and the guys currently serving in Iraq — not enough armor, not enough anything, reducing combat pay, closing VA hospitals, defunding the VA. Do you know how many military wives have to get food stamps to feed their children? (And now the Republicans are cutting 300,000 people off of food stamps, too.) That sucks big time. Support the troops by giving them a BIG pay hike for Christmas, like a 100% increase in pay (not some picayune 5% or 10%) and by actually really funding the Veteran's Administration so that they can do things for the vets. And support the troops by giving those worthless back-stabbing two-faced politicians hell about it."
      What? You think that's too much of a pay raise? Don't you think they are worth it?
How much would we have to pay you to get you to go over there and duck bullets and dodge bombs?

== Orange

*                  Agent Orange               *
*             orange@orange-papers.info        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
** "You go to war with the jokes you have, not the jokes
** you might want or wish to have at a later time."
**  == Our Secretary of Offense, Ronald McDumsfeld

Date: Thu, November 17, 2005
From: "David W. R."

Wow, I have never seen so much energy placed into an anti-12 step tirade before. If you put � the energy into working the **program** of AA as you did into penning this drivel, not only would you have **recovered** by now (yes, permanent recovery is guaranteed ? read page 85. Don?t dissect; don?t analyze ? READ it), but you would have helped countless others.

Good luck.
David W. R.

Hi David,

Why on earth would I want to "work the program"?
I have 5 years of sobriety without A.A. or the 12 Steps or "working the program", so I have no need for cult religion or quack medicine.

And it doesn't matter what it says on page 85 of the Big Book. Bill Wilson was crazy. That book is worse than worthless. Bill was merely writing down his delusions, like:

We will seldom be interested in liquor.   ...
We will see that our new attitude toward liquor has been given to us without any thought or effort on our part. It just comes! That is the miracle of it.
The Big Book, 3rd & 4th Editions, William G. Wilson, Chapter 3, More About Alcoholism, pages 84-85.

== Orange

*                  Agent Orange               *
*             orange@orange-papers.info        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
** The A.A. Plan: "Search out another alcoholic and
** try again. You are sure to find someone desperate
** enough to accept with eagerness what you offer."
** (The Big Book, page 96.)

From: "Linda L."
Date: Thu, November 17, 2005

who are you and what's wrong with you?

What's wrong with me?

I'm getting old, my hair turned gray, my teeth fell out, and I don't have 60 beautiful young virgins in my harem.

What's your problem?

[2nd letter from Linda, 1/2 hour later:]

Date: Thu, November 17, 2005

Maybe I'm just too smart to be a stupid, simple addict, but I have had a great deal of success and personal growth as a result of working several 12 step programs. I have never had any particular definition of god forced on me, have never been demeaned, discounted or shamed. The steps have wording that can be difficult to overlook, but the results of self-examination and taking responsibility have created maturity in my personality. I have taken part in many varied forms of spirituality, behavior modification, psychotherapy and tried quitting on my own. So far I am in the longest period of abstinence of my life since starting intoxicants and I credit the NA program for that. The hostile tone of your text indicates many things to me and I feel sorry for you. How dare you call this a cult when not everyone has the same experience in it?

Hello Linda,

Congratulations on your success in getting off of drugs.

The fact that you enjoy your meetings does not mean that

1. they are good for other people, or that
2. N.A. and A.A. should be forced on other people for their own good, or that
3. the meetings actually cure drug or alcohol problems, or that
4. your N.A. meetings made you quit drugs, or that
5. Steppism is not a cult.

== Orange

*                  Agent Orange               *
*             orange@orange-papers.info        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**  Being surrounded by a group of people who keep telling
**  you that you are powerless over alcohol, and that your
**  will power is useless, is not getting "support".
**  It is getting sabotaged.
**  With friends like them, you don't need any enemies.

Date: Thu, November 17, 2005 8:16 pm
From: Spiritingeagle
Subject: The Funny Spirituality of Bill Wilson and A.A.

Just a remark about your article "The Funny Spirituality of Bill Wilson and A.A." With the grace and love of the program of AA I have been drug and alcohol free for 21 years. The shortest paragraph of the Big Book is on page 88 and it states "It works — it really does".

Here is a reply to an Email I received asking me what I thought about the article.

Namaste'

Hi Eagle,

Thanks for the letter, and congratulations on your years of sobriety. Of course I strongly disagree about the cause of your sobriety. I think that you finally quit drinking because you decided to.

Now about Don's letter:
Brother is that answer a classic cop-out — "using today's insights and knowledge of smoking to a time of the past." That is just a lame excuse for Bill Wilson being stupid in 1939.

As if people in 1935 or 1940 or 1950 weren't able to notice that their throats and chests hurt from smoking? As if they weren't able to notice that smoking made colds and flues and bronchitis worse? As if they couldn't notice that smoking cut down on their wind and made them wheezing and short of breath? (They did notice it. Bill even complained on that page that the alcoholic's wife was complaining about his smoking, and trying to get him to quit.)

And then Bill and his fellow Steppers claimed that they were getting Guidance from God while practicing Step 11 — so, what? — was God too stupid in 1940 to notice that smoking damages people's lungs and wrecks their health and gives them cancer? Didn't God ever say to Bill Wilson, "You should quit smoking that evil weed?"
Or was Bill Wilson just not listening to God?

Oh, and Don dodged all of the other important points in that web page, like how could Bill Wilson claim that the guy who chain-smoked and threw screaming drunken temper tantrums to get his own way was "spiritual" and "a most effective member of Alcoholics Anonymous", while his clean and sober (and non-smoking) wife was just an unspiritual nag who needed to learn real spirituality from her alcoholic husband? That's insane.

Then Don complains that my logic is bad?

If we follow Don's logic, we should throw away the entire 12-Step program because that is just the primitive knowledge of the past, not up to par with today's medical knowledge, and we should not apply it to the problems of today.

And you know, that is a conclusion that I can agree with.

Have a good day.

== Orange

*                  Agent Orange               *
*             orange@orange-papers.info        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
** The A.A. Plan: "Search out another alcoholic and
** try again. You are sure to find someone desperate
** enough to accept with eagerness what you offer."
** (The Big Book, page 96.)

Subject: Just an Opinion
Date: Sat, November 19, 2005 7:33 pm

Dear A. Orange,

I visited your "The Heresy of the Twelve Steps web site and I can offer you this: I'm a believing, practicing Christian who has been troubled with sexual addiction all my life. Though my Lord and my God were hearing my cries for help, I wasn't really listening for His reply because I felt that I was unworthy of help. I knew about "surrender" as a Christian, but I had never learned how to do it. When I met the local crowd from Sexaholics Anonymous, a lot of things fell into place that never had before. I am now happier in my service to God and my church than ever before because, with the help of my Lord, simply beginning the twelve-step program opened my eyes to His truths. I'm back in the fold, praise the Lord!

We use expressions such as "God /as we understood him/" because many addicts are afraid of God and are reluctant to approach Him because they feel they are unworthy. Many sinners approach cautiously "/as we understand him/" and come to the Light, the Truth and the Way as a result.

I'm sorry you feel that twelve-step programs are heresy. To you the programs may be heresy, but to me, Sexaholics Anonymous is a lifesaver. I was afraid to call out to my God for help, so I called out to men like myself. They turned me right back around and taught me how to listen for the answers to my prayers. To me, the twelve-step program was a program through which God spoke to me.

A quotation from a fellow named Herbert Spencer: "There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance--that principle is contempt prior to investigation."

Your friend,
Philip T.

Dear Philip,

You shouldn't be sorry that I feel that twelve-step programs are heresy.

You should be sorry that the twelve-step programs really are heresy, and you are practicing it.

What part of the file "The Heresy of the 12 Steps" did you not understand?

Just because you have become a happy true believer in 12-Steppism doesn't mean that you are practicing Christianity, or that Steppism is a good religion.

Please read the entire file "The Heresy of the 12 Steps" again.

Oh, and while you are examining all of the facts, you really should also read The Cult Test, the whole thing, questions and answers.

And yes, I know all about the quote from Herbert Spencer. I begin my web site with it. And the reason it is there is, Herbert Spencer had to constantly exhort the true believers to actually look at all of the facts before making up their minds about things. Then, as now, there were a whole lot of people who didn't want to actually look at all of the facts and think about them for a while. They were narrow-minded and prejudiced and they just wanted to believe what they already believed.

Nothing has changed.

Oh well, have a good day anyway.

== Orange

*                  Agent Orange               *
*             orange@orange-papers.info        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
** And the believers said, "If you want what we
** have, and are willing to go to any length to
** get it, then, here, drink this koolaid."

Yes, it really is a cult.

Date: Sat, November 19, 2005
From: "Chris K."
Subject: Twelve Step Programs

I read most of the article you have on the Internet regarding the ineffectiveness of 12 step programs. I thank you for the insights.. I am admittedly an alcoholic and told my new doctor such this week. Of course he wanted to send me to AA right away and told me that was the solution to my drinking problems. I explained to him that I had been through AA several times over the years and that my success rate was zero. I suffer from depression and listening to these people made it worse. They had nothing to offer me. I have sent him your article but I expect it will do no good. I know that if I'm going to stop drinking that it will be with the support of my wife and I will do it on my own. Hopefully I'll be one of the 5% that make it through. I've been through rehabs, Naltrexone, Antabuse, etc. and it doesn't last. Maybe one of these days I'll clean up my act for the sake of my family but the 12 step programs are a complete failure. Thank you for your insightful article.

Chris K.

Hi Chris,

Thanks for the letter and all of the compliments, and welcome to the club.

A big part of getting it together to quit and stay quit is increasing your motivation to quit. I like the way that SMART puts emphasis on that. You should check them out. You will find SMART meetings to be a breath of fresh air after 12-Step meetings.

Also check out all of the rest of the pro-recovery resources on the links page.

And read about the Lizard Brain Addiction Monster. Understanding his mind games as he tries to get me to relapse has been a huge help in staying sober.

Good luck, have a good day, and don't hesitate to write back if you feel like it.

== Orange

*                  Agent Orange               *
*             orange@orange-papers.info        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**  Being surrounded by a group of people who keep telling
**  you that you are powerless over alcohol, and that your
**  will power is useless, is not getting "support".
**  It is getting sabotaged.
**  With friends like them, you don't need any enemies.

From: Heather Golightlymuse
Subject: Gratitude — On Thanksgiving AND The Other 365 Days!
Date: Mon, November 21, 2005 11:23 am

Have a great Thanksgiving! I came across this article about gratitude on MySpace, and thought it was timely and true. I know when I let go of fear and stay open, opportunities I yearn for start showing up without much effort on my part.

**
*/ I also discovered a wonderful web site: www.gratefulness.org
*//*

Heather

Hi Heather,

Thanks for the thought. You have a happy Thanksgiving too.

== Orange

From: kevin g.
Subject: truth.
Date: Sun, November 20, 2005

howdy from austin texas. my name's kevin and i was recently charged with DWI. i haven't been to court yet, but as a condition of my release on p.r. bond i must attend a.a. meetings thrice a week. While googling 'why we were chosen' on the advice of my over-eager sponsor, i fortunately landed on the orange papers. Thank god for you. <i already developed a contact with my higher power navigating hallucinigens and teenagism>. Whoa are you on the money!!

I never attempted quitting alcohol or drugs until this last arrest. I'm 32 and after 18 years of drinking and drugging i was/am ready for life to change. I honestly think i have spontaneously remitted. But people in a.a. including my temp sponsor, whom i fired yesterday, won't hear of it!! they quote the "big book" and say 'maybe you should try some more controlled drinking,'..etc. Yeah! what about the solution to my drinking problem?

Hi Kevin,

Thanks for the letter and the compliments. Sorry to hear about your difficulties. I'm glad to hear that you are otherwise okay. And congratulations on the quitting.

The reason that the sponsors don't want to talk about spontaneous remission is because it means that you don't need them. The whole A.A. thing is pointless and unnecessary when you find that 80% of all of the successful quitters do it alone, without any support group or treatment program. (The Harvard Medical School said that, here.)

you are so dead on, and the more i research your site the more i see it. i have probably been to 45 meetings or so.. the thing is I haven't even been to court yet, and I'll probably get some probation with mandatory meetings.

I was wondering if you've ever heard of someone requesting the rep. voice rec. or some other meetings/treatment in place of a.a. and if it is possible. I guess i should ask my lawyer, but he seems to be pretty a.a. friendly <his son is in a.a.>

The answer is "Absolutely YES!" You can start with my short write-up of legal cases and judges' decisions, here.

And then you can look at Ken Ragge's web site, "More Revealed", and get the actual decisions of a bunch of critical cases where high court judges, including the Supreme Court, ruled that A.A. was a religious organization, or engaged in religious activities. Go to:
http://www.morerevealed.com/courts/index.html — Archive of documents, including the legal decisions that declared that A.A. was engaging in religious ceremonies, and that sentencing someone to go to A.A. meetings was unconstitutional.

It is blatantly illegal and unconstitutional to sentence anyone to A.A. meetings. The judge must also allow a non-cult-religion alternative, like SMART or something. You can get a list of the SMART meetings from their web site:

SMART: Self Management And Recovery Training.
http://www.smartrecovery.org/
Rational, sane, common-sense recovery techniques. Based on Rational Emotive Behavioral Therapy, the brainchild of Dr. Albert Ellis.
Also see his book, When AA Doesn't Work for You, Rational Steps to Quitting Alcohol.

The big problem is just that some judges are married to A.A., for various reasons. Some are members themselves, although they won't admit it in public. Some, like your lawyer, have relatives in it. Some are just grossly misinformed and are convinced that it is a good thing that produces lots of success stories. And some judges know the truth, but use A.A.-based programs by default because that's all there is in their area.

When a judge insists that YOU WILL go to a 12-Step meeting, it is questionable how much you wish to incur the wrath of the judge by arguing with him. Legally, you are right, and legally, he can still screw you into the ground. So proceed cautiously and respectfully.

At least thanks to you i know I won't get duped!! Hahahaha... I have tried some questions about the cult aspect and the responses are as you describe. I feel so sad for some of these people!! I just can't believe i have to continue to go..

Thank You So Much for your time and effort! Your efforts have saved my mind. and thanks for your time

p.s. the quote about 'all that is required for evil to triumph over good is that good men do nothing' i read as being ascribed to Ghandi. you probably know that.

No, I wasn't really sure where that quote came from. Thanks for the tip.

THANK YOU ORANGE. DON'T KEEP IT A SECRET!!!

Thanks for all of the thanks. And it isn't so much of a secret any more. Google has been pretty good about putting me high up on their lists. I was very surprised to discover that one of my web pages was the first choice on a "children's gulags" Google search.

Have a good day, and good luck.

== Orange

Date: Tue, November 22, 2005 12:52 am
From: "Andrew"
Subject: more mail for you

Dear Agent Orange

I forget how I first came across your site, but at the time I regarded it as the disordered rant of someone who'd got a resentment at AA and gone out and drunk again, but not so much as to prevent him producing a website. Recent events mean that I'm less sure.

The revelations about the Oxford Group come as no surprise — I bought a second-hand copy of Driberg's 'The menace of Moral Re-Armament' in my student days years ago and wish to God it hadn't been one of the books I sold in a job lot, ostensibly for living expenses during one of my long periods of unemployment, but in fact to help fund my drinking. I had always assumed, though, that AA and Bill Wilson had been veritable beacons of light in comparison with the odious Buchman, but such was obviously not the case.

I have had two spells in AA — the first a brief one six years ago, which ended when I couldn't handle my mother's illness and death and drank again for a year, the second starting just over five years ago through a treatment centre, since when I have been actively involved in 'the rooms', have stayed sober and enjoyed more success than I ever had before. I have been secretary of two meetings, one after the other, the first in London and the second near my home some forty miles outside it, and I am now GSR of a meeting in my home town, which fortunately is not too onerous a commitment.

Happy though I have generally been in AA, there have been a number of 'revelations' which have given me pause for thought, but about which I do not feel free to speak openly. I have had two sponsors and have done the steps after my own rather eccentric fashion, which the hardliners would tell me is no way to do it, so I tend not to share about that and avoid meetings (like step meetings) at which I might have to.

My first sponsor was someone I met during my first attempt at sobriety, who made the effort to keep in touch with me even while I was out drinking (which is more than anyone else has ever done), and that is what prompted me to ask him to sponsor me. As he worked shifts as a night watchman in another town, our sponsor/sponsee relationship was conducted almost exclusively over the phone, and he was enormously supportive.

Nearly two years into sobriety, I decided to return to the practice of the Christian faith, which I had abandoned during my drinking, and about which my treatment centre had been highly disparaging, taking the view that my God had not kept me sober and so all pretence at believing in Him should be abandoned. Returning to active membership of the Church of England (i.e. Episcopalian) for me involved making my confession in order to be able to make my communion at Easter. I therefore booked an appointment at a church in London, wrote out all the things I had done wrong since my last confession many years before (when a monk had advised me to go to AA!) plus a few from my youth that I'd half-deliberately forgotten about, and went and did the deed. I did this without telling my sponsor, at least until afterwards (yet another black mark in the eyes of the step-Nazis!) but when I did, he simply said, 'congratulations, you've done step 5'. This thing that everyone in meetings bangs on about being so horrendously difficult I had done just like that! But this is something I have never felt able to share about openly, as it is quite clear from everything said by everyone else that sacramental confession is a no-no, and the practice of the Christian religion a sign of being in the problem rather than the solution.

My then sponsor left the fellowship, basically over the 13th-stepping that goes on and which horrifies him. He hasn't been to a meeting for over two years, but he hasn't had a drink, holds down a job, has been sacked from a job for refusing to be dishonest (that's what I call working a program of rigorous honesty), goes to church and raises money for charity. Dry drunk or what? And what a contrast to so many of those regarded around here as winners with whom one should stick, who waste their qualifications, live on state benefits and spend all their time going to AA meetings.

My second sponsor was/is a woman who talked me into sacking sponsor #1 on the grounds that if he wasn't going to meetings, he was a dry drunk and should be avoided. I bitterly regret that. It has to be said that she was very helpful when my father died last year, but she basically regarded me (like so many men in the rooms) as a meal ticket, and I was fool enough to fall for it. She habitually walks out of jobs and is heading for bankruptcy, but treats herself to exotic foreign holidays several times a year, paid for on a succession of credit cards that she obtains by I know not what means, but probably dishonest ones.

After my father died, I inherited a certain amount of money. Obviously, I shared that with her, as you have to, and she advised me not to share about it openly as people would only start poncing money off me. Then, when I got back from a holiday in Belgium a couple of months later (at a time when she was on one of her jaunts in Italy) she asked me to lend her a thousand pounds to pay the rent. Not thinking it very likely that I'd ever get the money back, I refused, and she promptly sacked me (by text message!), called me 'judgmental' and forbade me to contact her or turn up to any of the meetings to which she goes, which include the one in London of which I used to be secretary and where I have (had?) the best friends I had in the fellowship. What do you make of that? Funny how you only really become wise to what's wrong with something when it affects you personally?.

I now frequently revisit your site and Jack Trimpey's, whose book on Rational Recovery is my current bedside reading. Much of it tallies with the thinking I have developed over my time in AA. I am seriously thinking about leaving the fellowship outright, although I don't want to cause inconvenience to the friends I am helping out by doing the GSR job — they are among the good guys in the rooms and there are a lot of them I would miss and who would not be allowed to be in touch with me if I left.

To those who would say to me that I haven't really done the steps I would ask. "Then how come I'm still sober?" Still sober, despite having gone through losing an uncle and a father, a pet cat, losing one job and getting another, doing such forbidden things as going on holiday somewhere where there are no AA meetings, staying away from meetings. Still sober, despite being cold-shouldered by many of the fellowship (isn't it funny how you're told to 'pick up the phone' all the time, yet nobody ever phones you?). Still sober and holding down the same job for four years, even though someone told me I should give up work, sign on for benefits and devote my life to meetings in order to stay sober? Well, I am. God (and I mean that literally) knows why.

I do hope you will find the time to reply to this. If you wish to add it to your site, please omit my surname but feel free to mention that I am in England.

Andrew
Aylesbury, England

Hi Andrew,

Thanks for a great letter. Have a good day.

== Orange

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