[ Link here = http://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters263.html#Pete ]

Date: Mon, September 19, 2011 4:47 pm     (answered 20 September 2011)
From: "pete h."
Subject: minors expoited by steppers-

for some reason the letter got returned. I would like this version as opposed to the fb one. trying again-

Before I begin I wish to make my plug again with everyone else that you put this info into a book. If not for the fame and fortune we all think that you deserve, than for the posterity of future generations who may be deprived of internet access, have their web searching monitored or censored, or even just plain run out of power for computers. Steppism wrecks such tremendous havoc in peoples' lives, is such a rabid threat to life and liberty, that therefore steppism will continue to pustulate if such info is unavailable.

A tiger in my opinion does not change its stripes; I feel it incumbent to advance this info as the perpetrators are still in meetings halls, and young peoples are habitually sentenced to such backwaters. Some below are now police officers and work in treatment centers. As I write this I feel it is important to note that I have no interest in being the sex police, and whether we lower the age of consent is an entirely different matter. I have contacted all perpetrators I shall discuss for comment, and have yet to receive a response though given ample time.

Also, from my earliest days in Ryther child center to the present in my tenure at AA, I have witnessed the crime of freely dispensing cigarettes with impunity to minors in AA meetings and adolescent treatment centers — the crime of contributing to the delinquency of minors if not also adding to the healthcare burden — and this crime is unenforced.

Such attitudes advanced by the fascist cult of AA have done everything to encourage these examples of statutory rape and sexual exploitation of minors that I have witnessed over the years. In the Bainbridge group [Bainbridge Island, Washington State] of AA, bleeding over into the neighboring Poulsbo, group things really got out of hand.

1. The first example — Tom Gow — had it put to him bluntly: "She is only 13 — that is 3 years away from 10 years old."

   What is important to note about Tom, who was in his twenties I believe at the time, is that now — or so it looks from his facebook page — he is a police officer. I asked him if he has ever arrested or had someone convicted for this crime, and have received no comment. I am not sure but he may have been working for Sundown at the time, and did work for this treatment center before he became a police officer.

2. The next case is one Ron Miguel Jr. He had a relationship with a 16 year old that went on for two years in AA until she went to college. He frankly admitted that they were having sex in violation of the law. Ron is important because his father is a big time "oldtimer" in meetings, so Jr. was basically given a free hand. My opinion is that this was the green light for other following instances — including Gow's. His underage girl friend also had a friend who made the rounds in meetings, I assume they were the same age, and was involved with members Tim Tomspson and JT Knowlton — I am not sure of her age at the time.

3. Then there was Glen (last name unknown). Glen migrated from the east coast to Bainbridge [Washington] with 10 years of steppism behind him, which granted him instant cult status. He began to spend all his time with a fourteen year old from an underprivileged background. They would often show up late to meetings together with their hair wet as if they just took a shower, and then could be witnessed there displaying what public schools define as "PDA's" — personal displays of affection — which are not allowed between consenting minors in a public school setting. Every body gossiped about this; nothing was done.

   I finally confronted the two with the position that — if it looks like a duck, acts like a duck — you know what. . .? and I was told point blank this was none of my business. This claim seems so fitting from a Nazi-inspired Oxford Group offshoot — Was that not the basic position of the 3rd Reich regarding the Holocaust(?) — "It was none of our business."

   Like 911 truth, I have made it my business. Apparently, the excuse he offered for the behavior was unless we all witnessed those two in bed together, we have no proof. I will leave it up to the readers if they feel it is appropriate for their 14 year old daughter to spend all her time with a 26 year old Hall Rat. I got better things to do than follow steppers around sniffing the sheets. The upshot of all this is that they "ran off" together, and I think we can all do the math.

4. The last example I wish to note is someone from the Poulsbo group whose name I do not know. There was another 13 year old girl there who was dating Ron's younger brother Lawrence — both minors; no crime there. This person in his mid twenties became Lawrence's sponsor, stole his 13 year old girl friend, and then made Lawerence do his fourth step. JT Knowlton it should also be noted was accused of date-raping another young female in that group. He and Ron Jr. affiliated with a local Tribe, and convinced them to send a cadre of their wayward youth in that time-honored, failsafe cure for addiction and delinquency — a forced march through the wilderness. They somehow persuaded this young female to participate as well, and six months later she had still not been paid for her services, in addition to claiming she was date-raped. These twisted wilderness expeditions have direct ties to steppism, and let no one claim otherwise.

5. The last example I wish to note is Harold Shraeder of the Sedro — Wolly group. He is said to have numerous affairs with underage girls in 12-step halls, one of which produced a child. Harold is noteworthy in that he now whines in AA meetings about having to pay child support for his actions, and the child with its mother has grown up on the welfare rolls. Moreover, I have witnessed Harold living illegally and fraudulently in public housing with this child's mother — unable or incapable of housing himself. What are the odds he listens to Rush Limbaugh and voted for president frat-boy?

When adolescent treatment centers and the courts sentence minors to Steppism this inevitable out come results. Nothing less can be expected from the Nazi loving cult of a wall street huckster, and this has to stop and stop immediately. Steppism is simply a menace to life, liberty, and the general welfare of society. Nothing greater underscores this base hypocrisy than the above examples.

Hello Pete,

Thanks for the report from Bainbridge Island. I think it is important for the public to hear what is really going on. And how much danger their children are in if they get sent to 12-Step "help".

For the other readers: Here is a previous letter about the Bainbridge Island group.

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             orange@orange-papers.info        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**
**      Someday, maybe there will exist a well-informed, well-considered,
**      and yet fervent public conviction that the most deadly of all
**      possible sins is the mutilation of a child's spirit.
**         ==  Erik Erikson

[ Link here = http://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters263.html#Ruth_H ]

Date: Fri, September 19, 2011     (answered 20 September 2011)
From: "Ruth H."
Subject: Survivor Of Christ Covenant Cult says thanks and HELP??????

This test hits every doubt or concern about the place I was born into and lived for 26 years. Christ Covenant Anglican Catholic Church (formerly His Community, etc. etc) has been going strong since 1969 and boasts over 200 members in Marshfield, Vt. With its own school, grocery store, and banking system, it is highly self-sufficient. Nearly every point on the list hits home. If you want a clear cut case of systematic abuse and absolute shunning of x-members including family, along with the ability to deceive some very intelligent people, this is your place.

After coming out it is incredible how I discover nearly every day ways "they" are still effecting my mind and the way I think. This place is begging for an investigation but people around here are too scared to act. The closest we have ever come is an article by Daniel Staples at the Times Argus a few weeks ago in the Sunday paper. People across the country have been affected and want to be heard. The place has shed many members over the years. Should you be in an investigative mode this place will blow your mind. In any event, thanks for the list. If my friends and family I left behind ever begin to question, I plan to use it as a tool to help them see the light as it helped me.

Thanks again.
Ruth H.

Hello Ruth,

Thank you for the letter and the compliments. I'm sorry to hear about your suffering, but I'm glad that you are out. Yes, I feel in an investigative mood, so I shall have to search and investigate. It will take time.

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             orange@orange-papers.info        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     You can say that some groups are cults. LaRouche's bunch,
**     Moonies, Scientology, Heaven's Gate, etc. There are
**     published scales to measure how much some group is a cult.
**       ==  Keith Henson

[ Link here = http://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters263.html#Jamie_G ]

Message on Facebook:

Hey Orange..

Found this Audio of the sinclair method.. There's 4 parts on youtube altogether.. Very interesting stuff.. This is the Book I mentioned..

Take care dude..

Little Known Cure 2 of 4

http://youtu.be/rZqJt87Wtl4

A YouTube adaption of Intellectual Iceberg's segment from 2005 on a cure for alcoholism called "The Sinclair Method" or "Pharmacological Extinction".

Thanks Jamie,

I'll have to check that out. The Sinclair Method sounds very promising.

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             orange@orange-papers.info        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**    Whisky is a good thing in its place. There is nothing like it for
**    preserving a man when he is dead.  If you want to keep a dead man,
**    put him in whisky; if you want to kill a live man put whisky in him.
**      ==  Guthrie.

July 20, 2011, Wednesday, a side trip to the Fernhill Wetlands this summer: Pelicans at the Fernhill Wetlands These pelicans are just scooping up and swallowing the fish. You can see the outline of a caught fish in the pouch of the pelican in the lower picture. [More gosling photos below, here.]

[ Link here = http://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters263.html#Neverdidthesteps ]

Date: Sun, September 18, 2011 11:26 am     (answered 20 September 2011)
From: "Neverdidthesteps"
Subject: Just an over-lengthy thank you

Orange,

I have spent the last 5 days absorbing as much as I can of the information on your pages. I only wish that I had seen it years ago. I have spent the last 10 years sober and the 17 years prior to that not drinking (in actuality sober). Prior to that, I was a drinker who drank "alcoholically" and was very probably an alcoholic. I really don't know? I do know that I was a mess.

In 1999, after my wife left, I made a failed, half-serious suicide attempt and through what I now realize was a huge not-so-funny comedy of errors, I entered a treatment facility, for depression, which ONLY used 12 step treatment methods. After an hour long counseling and evaluation session, it was determined that I was an alcoholic who had been maintaining a "dry drunk" status for the last 17 years and that they were sure that their program of AA would help me. The truth of the matter is more probably that I had pretty darn good insurance and they really didn't want to suggest I go somewhere else; however they really didn't have anything else to offer in the way of a diagnosis that would allow them to get paid. The next 17 days were filled with 3 meetings a day, the proverbially 3 hots and a cot and lots and lots of card playing, some arts and crafts (mostly gluing the AA slogans onto plaques for the local AA rooms in the area — apparently to thank them for bringing "outreach" meetings to the facility) and waiting for the next smoke break. The cost of this program over and above my insurance coverage would be about 1700 dollars, IF I didn't attend the expected and suggested 90 in 90 meetings at a local AA room and returned with a signed attendance card. Otherwise, I was good to go, or as they said, "as fixed as we know how to get you." They chided to me as I left "Take it Easy", "Let go and let God" and of course the ever popular "It Works If You Work It".

I fell right into the meeting routine (3 a day for 90 days) and made a lot of friends; something that I hadn't had in years. I actually started feeling better. After 90 days, I chaired meetings and made coffee and eventually became a trusted servant as the procurement and purchasing member for the group.

I, however, like you, never had a sponsor other than a guy who "appointed himself" to me and I never worked the steps. I also felt horrible that I was lying through my teeth and telling people that I was doing all of the things they wanted me to do in order to feel like a part of the group. I actually wanted to fit in so much, I picked up the proverbially inevitable "white chip" after a couple of years because everyone else who was actually "working the program and the steps" was relapsing and getting lots of attention and well, I kind of thought that was what "real alcoholics" (as if that is some sort of badge of honor) were supposed to do. And of course the self-appointed sponsor gloated that

• a) It never would have happened if I hadn't fired him as my sponsor. (Never really hired him although I DID in fact fired him)
  And
• b) If I had waited a couple of more weeks he wouldn't have won the old-timers pool.
  And
• c) I could now relax and "get with the program" because I already had my brush with death and was blessed and lucky enough to survive. (Of course I never really picked up that drink nor even thought about it)

This room was no different than any other club centered AA group which offers 30—35 meetings a week; consisting of a small group of extremely overbearing, outwardly "jovial" (to avoiding using the word happy) — inwardly miserable — old men who pounced on the male newcomers to do service work like sweeping and cutting grass, and lusted after the newcomer females.

About 5 years after doing 2—3 meetings a day, and after watching a friend of mine die as the results of his continually relapsing on alcohol and crack and not getting the treatment that he needed because his (yeah, you guessed it) sponsor (yeah you guessed it again one of those tough old Billy goats who thinks that the steps will get you sober and service work will keep you sober) really didn't think that he needed treatment (or maybe it was that he needed his car washed that weekend); I decided that the room that I attended was too sick to continue in, and basically stopped going to AA.

I moved to another town for financial reasons and have spent the last 5 years maintaining my sobriety by just not drinking (which in fact actually "does work if you work it"). I'm still trying to kick those smokes and I'll get there soon. For reasons really that probably had a lot more to do with feeling a little out of the loop and not meeting as many people that I thought I should have after the move, I recently looked up and found the local rooms in the town where I now live. I caught a few meetings and met some very nice people — as I expected I would. The people in the rooms are usually either "nice and lonely hurting people" or proselytizing, Big Book thumping jerks that are also hurting. Reminds me of the James Thurber fable, "The Bear Who Let It Alone",
http://4brightminds.info/thurber/bear_let_it_alone.jpg

I picked up my 10 year coin and was invited to tell my story at the next speaker meeting (obviously, the lonely folks probably wanted to get to know someone new and the jerks wanted to buy me back into the "program" and take credit for something which they never had a part in, either innocently or nefariously). While doing this I actually did a lot of writing my experiences and being honest with myself and I wish I could tell you I didn't tell "my story", alas I did. I was almost hooked again — on the meetings, that is, not the sauce. I went back into an online chat-room (aaonline.org) that I used to participate in and signed in one night only to find that a woman telling the room that she wanted to kill herself. Half of the people there were telling her "How 'chicken shit' that that solution is according to both the Big Book and the Bible (not a verbatim quote)" and the rest of them were letting her know that it was her character defects and shortcomings that were responsible for her feeling that way and of course, the inevitable, that it was her Disease talking and this too shall pass. Not one person suggested or questioned whether she might be off of her meds, might need to seriously find a doctor for a legitimate diagnosis, or anything else. I posted to the room that I felt like that someone should have suggested that she should contact a suicide hotline or a local mental health emergency number and was (yeah I'm sure you are way ahead of me on this one too) told that that was an "Outside Issue" and not tolerated in the room. Of course that was after a seven or eight second pause of complete silence (as in what the hell do we write when someone asks that?) in the room. I was floored by this. Spouting slogans and worthless acronyms was all they had???

I actually found your site while trying to find an answer for this woman "google-ing" suicide and AA. I went back to my home group the next day and when I mentioned the previous night's events to one of my friends there, I was told, "lots of 'us' die from this disease" and of course one of the proverbial "old-timers" was eavesdropping and chimed in that those people did exactly what they were supposed to do because that woman couldn't have been working the program very well if she wanted to kill herself — they needed to stay away from her or else they might get drunk.

Of course, I had already heard and known what would be the "party" line on that, but I couldn't help but worry that this woman might have ended her life because, while she was seriously seeking help of something that she had been told was supposed to be there for her, the "hand of AA", she was only given slogans, acronyms and misinformation.

Talk about your "spiritual awakenings". I think I finally had one. (It's true that this is a life and death disease/whatever-the-hell-category it goes into... and the amateurs are neither trained nor capable of treating it.)

So, here I am now. Feeling compelled to write to you. Telling you where I am with all of this. Feeling partly responsible for the death of a guy who had become my best friend and what may have been the death of a woman who was just asking for help. All that was offered in either case was trite little cutesy slogans and asinine acronyms and warnings of outside issues.

Actually I haven't been able to quit reading this site — downloaded it and have it on my a flash drive so that can take it with me to doctor appointments where they have no wi-fi — hell, I even let my Farmville crops wither while reading your site. Just kidding, I actually harvested them on time, (although, it would have made for a good story,) but it was close.

I know this is very lengthy and I probably should have stopped hours ago, but I do need to add in here that I honestly feel like the average "rank and file" AAer has no idea of how insidious this cult is, talk about something that is cunning, baffling and powerful. Come to think of it you could probably substitute "Alcoholics Anonymous" in a global search and replace for the word alcohol and the word yourself for God and have a pretty good statement. Most of the AAers I have met are truly interested in getting and staying sober and helping other people do the same; either because they have been conned into believing it or they are just that lonely and simply don't care because the fellowship puts them into contact with others who, like themselves, are by default and admission, "damaged goods".

What's the good news? You've offered not only other options to AA (and the other TSP's), but also gave a reasonable and very liberal list of "good" things that AA has to offer. I don't know if I was an alcoholic and because I haven't had a drink in almost 27 years, I don't think I really need those other options, but you can bet I have them listed on my desktop for people I think may need them. I applaud your smoking cessation (I actually only started smoking again after 17 years quit when I first went into treatment and into the rooms) and will try and give myself that gift sooner than later.

Please keep up the good work. I absolutely love the photos and stories of the geese. Thanks for letting me vent and share my "real" story with someone who understands. I just felt the need to share this with someone — and I am sure that this only serves to corroborate information that you already know and have.

There should really be no reason to post this on your site (and I don't really wish for it to be posted), as it certainly is just one more of the same song you hear everyday that I am sure that you receive from every other person who writes — unless of course, you feel as though it adds, somehow, to the conversation at hand. If that is the case please email me ahead of time. There a few people in the rooms who I now know pay attention to your site that will recognize my story and I really don't want to have to deal with them. Please make sure that my email address disappears as I have noticed is your regular and responsible practice and sign me, simply, as,

Neverdidthesteps

Hello Neverdidthesteps,

Thank you for the letter and the compliments, and I'm glad that you like the geese too.

That is really an incredible story, and not your usual letter. Thanks for your permission to print it.

About this line:

... don't know if I was an alcoholic and because I haven't had a drink in almost 27 years,...

== Orange

*             orange@orange-papers.info        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     "A useful idea has turned into a religious movement —
**     and a hindrance to research, psychiatry, and to many
**     alcoholics who need a different kind of help."
**        ==  Dr. Arthur H. Cain, Alcoholics Anonymous: Cult or Cure?,
**      Harper's Magazine, February 1963.

[The previous letter from Robin_F is here.]

[ Link here = http://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters263.html#Robin_F ]

Date: Mon, September 19, 2011 6:06 pm     (answered 23 September 2011)
From: "Robin F."
Subject: Re: Re:

Do you actually believe that this is news to anybody. It is unfortunate that some people find it necessary to attack others to make themselves seem superior. Let those who are without sin cast the first stone.

Sent from my iPhone

Hello again, Robin,

Thanks for the letter. You are demonstrating a very standard A.A. dodge to avoid criticism.

First off, there is the minimization and denial: "This is news to anybody."

Actually, it is news to a lot of people. I recently received a letter from a woman who decided to quit A.A. when she learned that A.A. was founded by a sexual predator. Look here: orange-letters258.html#Wendy_N.

Then you tried the "don't criticize others" dodge. That is a favorite of criminals and con artists and cults. They don't like to get criticized.

What you don't seem to realize is that Jesus had different ways of handling different situations. When he was confronted with the adulteress whom the crowd wanted to stone to death, He said, "Let he who is without sin throw the first stone."

The logic and morals are simple and obvious: She didn't deserve to be executed for having made love with someone else. But Jesus didn't let her off totally: He told her to go and sin no more.

On the other hand, when Jesus walked into the Temple and found the money-changers cheating people and running a racket, He picked up a whip and yelled,

"It is written in the scriptures that God said,
'My temple will be called a house of prayer for the people of all nations.'
But you have made it into a hideout for thieves!"
(Mark 11:15. Also see Matthew 21:12 and Luke 19:45.)

== Orange

*             orange@orange-papers.info        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     "... Ye outwardly appear righteous unto men, but
**     within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity..."
**       ==  Jesus, denouncing corrupt church elders,
**             the scribes and Pharisees, in Matthew 23:28

[ Link here = http://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters263.html#Marcus_C ]

Date: Tue, September 20, 2011 7:07 am     (answered 23 September 2011)
From: "marcus c."
Subject: RE: Article on brainwashing as teen substance-abuse treatment

Really love the baby duck pictures!

Here is a bit more for your archives, it is a recently published interview with William White about the Straight Inc program. There is some history and a comparison to a Communist reform prison. Straight was what the Communist brainwashing prisons would have been if they had been converting people to the 12 steps rather than Communism. And instead of Chairman Mao, Straight was endorsed by the Reagan's and Bush's.

http://www.williamwhitepapers.com/pr/2011%20Marcus%20Chatfield.pdf

The program was federally funded at first, then merely federally "protected".... the White House did fund raisers and telethons for Straight while Straight was sued over and over.... There have not been any criminal lawsuits against the adults who operated, protected or endorsed the program.

Anyway...for your archives...

Marcus

Thank you for that information. Thank you very much. I find it simply appalling, almost unbelievable, that such things are being done to our children, and our corrupt politicians endorse it.

It's actually worse than what is being done to suspected terrorists. When Arabs are grabbed in the middle of the night and renditioned to secret prisons where they are tortured, the perpetrators can at least rationalize that they are saving lives. They can rationalize that they are torturing nasty murderous criminals who are planning to kill a lot of people. ( — Which may or may not be true...)

When that is done to our children, there is no such rationalization. Well, other than the lame excuse that they are "saving the children from a life of crime."

Doesn't it sound just like the justification for burning pretty girls at the stake for witchcraft? "We are saving her from Hell by burning the evil out of her."

It is also disgusting and appalling that there have been no prosecutions of the monsters who ran Straight. They deserve to go to prison for a lot of years.

Oh well, have a good day now.

== Orange

P.S.: The file is now archived locally, here:
2011_Marcus_Chatfield.pdf

*             orange@orange-papers.info        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**      Someday, maybe there will exist a well-informed, well-considered,
**      and yet fervent public conviction that the most deadly of all
**      possible sins is the mutilation of a child's spirit.
**         ==  Erik Erikson

Date: Sun, September 25, 2011 1:49 pm
From: "marcus c."
Subject: RE: Article on brainwashing as teen substance-abuse treatment

It means so much to me that you take the time to respond to thoughtfully. I know you must be busy, and still you manage to make me feel heard and respected. Thanks for that.

I find it rather easy to skim my emails and reply in haste just to get it done...I'm truly moved by your way of corresponding and aspire to some of that myself...

Making sour kraut today

and thinking about brainwashing

as usual

Marcus

Hi Marcus,

Thanks for the thanks, and you have a good day too.

== Orange

[ Link here = http://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters263.html#Alice ]

Date: Wed, September 21, 2011 5:04 pm     (answered 23 September 2011)
From: "Alice"
Subject: love your site

How I wish you would take the New Age and spiritual community under task!

You did a fantastic job on your site.

Thanks, Alice

Hello Alice,

Thanks for the compliments. The "New Age and spiritual community" is actually too large and diverse a thing to be either praised or condemned as a whole. It's a lot of different things, and different groups, and different people. And since I lived through the whole flowering of the "New Age" movement, I have a special fondness for some of those memories.

Still, I can't help but sadly notice that the vast majority of the gurus from the 'sixties and 'seventies turned out to be frauds, phonies, or failures.

More than half of them — both the foreign and domestic ones — were just plain dishonest fakes from the very beginning, just clever characters who noticed that American kids had lots of money, and it wasn't hard to bamboozle them out of it with a bunch of "spiritual" slogans and double-talk.

The really sad cases were the people who were really genuine spiritual figures, real fellow students on the path, who fell victim to temptation, usually lust for women, wealth, power, or fame.

Out of the dozens of "teachers" who popped up during those years, I can count the remaining ones who still have credibility and a good reputation on my fingers.

Right now I feel like I have my hands full just dealing with the "recovery movement".

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             orange@orange-papers.info        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**
**     "There is no greater crime than deceiving men in the name of God!"
**       ==  The Indian judge who heard the case of "the 14-year-old
**           'Perfect Master' Maharaji" and his brother, who were
**           suing each other over who got to use the title of
**           "The One and Only Perfect Master".
**
**     "I know of no greater sin than to oppress the innocent
**         in the name of God."
**       ==  Mahatma Gandhi, April 1947, All Men Are Brothers, page 73.

Those medieval people sure had a weird morbid sense of humor.

Later, "John Barleycorn" became slang for any ale or whiskey.