[The previous letter from Miss_A_Nonymous is here.]

[ Link here = http://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters244.html#Miss_A_Nonymous ]

Date: Wed, June 15, 2011 5:19 pm     (answered 17 June 2011)
From: "Miss_A_Nonymous"
Subject: "I am a member of Clancy's family" Follow up

Hello, here are some answers to your questions.

1. Sexual exploitation? I know that Clancy is famous for using A.A. as his harem, and his grand-sponsee Mike Quinones in Washington DC was even worse. Which leads to, breaking up marriages?

   I don't know of any at AG, and everyone in the Clancy family there is female. I will say a lot of sponsors place meetings and their directions over families.

2. Finances? Was there anything funny going on with the money? How do the highest bosses of the Atlantic Group make a living?

   I have no idea what happens to the money after collection is taken. I do find it irritating that it's obvious the group has a lot of money, as well as many committed members with a TON of money (the central location of the group is on park ave), but for some reason people would be brought up to speak at the podium at times and bash those who would come week after week and not put anything in the basket. It was always a huge guilt trip, it led to this show of "look how much I'm putting in the basket" and I felt humiliated because I was unemployed and, no, wasn't willing to give money to something that had more money I did when I was in the red. Also, on anniversary night each month, everyone celebrating had to do a one minute share of how much the program has helped. Before they speak, they have to put 1 dollar in a basket for every year that they have been sober.

3. Does the Atlantic Group have any special connections to treatment centers? Does the A.G. send alcoholics to any particular treatment centers? Or recruit from certain treatment centers in particular?

   AG is HUGE about taking meetings into treatment centers and jails. They LOVE going to Riker's Island and it is a one year service commitment to do so. And I will say the group has a split view on treatments centers. Some encourage it to newcomers if needed, others are convinced to stay with the group and stick it out because they are "the best people for the job."

4. Deceptive recruiting? What mind games are played on the newcomers to get them in and convince them to stay?

   Oh geez. Well, first it starts with bombarding them with attention and love. I was told the first thing to ask was their phone number and to call them the next day and get them to come to the meeting with me that night. I've seen people use fear in order to do this, saying that whatever plans they had going on instead of a meeting wasn't important because their life was on the line. I've probably used this line. Newcomers are constantly being told they could easily die if they don't do what they're told. Everyone did a 90 in 90 and I was told to only hang out with sober people in my first year. I was blamed for abuse that I had been through and when I was sobering up and trying to come to terms with it and reach out for support, all I received was guilt for being a bad person or was told to look at those people as sick and have compassion for them and a few times I was told I didn't know what abuse was as a newcomer and my sponsor should decide what happened.

5. Success rate or drop-out rate?

   I would see a lot of the same people on my visits, which have been many. While the main meeting has 600 people, the others (there is a meeting everyday) hover between 50 — 100 people. I think the numbers are so large at the main meeting because a lot of families make it mandatory to attend that one. My family had 2 required meetings. I would say a ton of people leave within the first month, if not year. I know this because of the amount of people who have to stand up in several meetings each week to give their day count. I would say an average 50 people give a day count in the main meeting. I would say there is an average of 3 one year anniversaries a month. And the number of people who stay after their one year party quickly diminishes. I would say not even half of the celebrants are there to give their 2 year speech on anniversary night and even less the year after that.

6. Suicides?

   Oh yes. In December alone there were 3. One of them was a friend of mine. She left an AG party and jumped off a building a few blocks away. When I tried to piece together what happened, I found out she had been desperatly seeking help on an "outside issue" ever since coming back to the group in the summer. I knew she was depressed and I know enough about the people she was talking to to know that she must have recieved the same backlash I did for trying to process my abuse. She had never thought about suicide before. Her sponsor said she was "fully splintered" by Thanksgiving. I'm just now realizing that AA may have factored into my friend's death and that's a little hard to talk about.

7. Telling people not to take their doctor-prescribed medications?

   Yes. Not everyone, but a lot of old timers. I know of one who forces her sponsees off them and convinces other newcomers to do the same b/c they can't be sober and be on them.

8. Claims of spirituality and a special connection to God?

   A lot of arrogant people who go around saying AG is the only real AA in the city and that newcomers should come to the beginner's meeting because it was a "real" education.

Hi again, Miss A. Nonymous,

Thank you for the answers. Yes, it's pretty much as I guessed. The only answer that surprised me was the one about it being an all-women's group, which precludes male old-timer sponsors collecting harems.

Now I need to think up some more questions.

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             orange@orange-papers.info        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     We serve others best by serving ourselves.
**       ==  William Shakespeare

[The next letter from Miss_A_Nonymous is here.]

[ Link here = http://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters244.html#Larry ]

Date: Thu, June 16, 2011 10:22 am     (answered 17 June 2011)
From: "Larry P."
Subject: u need a meeting putz

Hi Larry,

Now why on Earth would I need a meeting? I haven't been to one in 9 years, and I'm doing just fine. I'm happy, I'm sober, and I'm free. Going to an A.A. meeting would just be depressing, listening to people complaining about how miserable they were from drinking, and how miserable they are now from doing the 12 Steps.

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             orange@orange-papers.info        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     If you want to make someone angry, tell him a lie.
**     If you want to make him furious, tell him the truth.
**       ==  author unknown

[ Link here = http://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters244.html#xx ]

Date: Wed, June 15, 2011 6:12 pm     (answered 17 June 2011)
From: Renee
Subject: Miss_A_Nonymous

Hi Orange!

I don't know what I did, but I can't get on the forum. I would LOVE to respond to your most recent letter from Miss_A_Nonymous.

Hi Renee,

I don't know why you can't get on either. I hope I didn't accidentally delete your registration. It could have happened. I get about a hundred spam registrations per day, most of them from spam-bots in Russia. I just take one look at them and recognize them as phony names and phony email addresses, and delete them.

But I could have accidentally deleted a real human or two by mistake.

So I suggest that you try to register again, using the exact same name and email as before. If it isn't rejected as a duplicate, then your registration got deleted. Either way, why don't you send me an email, telling me what name you are registering under, so I can watch for it.

She needs help and fast. She is involved with the same cult within a cult that I was once in. I understand exactly what she is going through. A few years ago I could have written her letter to you myself ..... She needs to get out, and away from those people ASAP.

She can e-mail me any time.... whenever she wants. I will provide you with my e-mail addy (please do not publish it).... if she asks for it you can give it to her.

Okay.

She sounds young and scared. I was her.... I lived my life just to serve these Clancy Clones. I was verbally beaten into submission every single time I questioned the program or the way the sponsorship line worked it..... My grand-sponsor was Montana Carleen, and SHE was sponsored by none other than King Clancy himself.

This may sound dramatic, but this girl needs to be saved from these emotional vampires.

I will keep trying to get on the forum.

Oh and hey, Tom. I have a better understanding of where you are coming from, but shooting the messenger (Orange/Terrence) is NOT the thing to do. Orange has opened up a line of communication for x-steppers, scared steppers and gung-ho steppers (some who may be questioning their sanity, and the program). When I was in the clutches of the Clancy sponsorship line of evil fools I may have been saved from the emotional and physical hell I went through in the 90's. I always felt something wasn't quite right about AA. Women like Miss_A_Nonymous will hopefully do what I could not do (because there were no Orange Papers)....i BREAK FREE!!

Renee

Thanks for the compliments, and you have a good day now. And yes, we'll get you hooked up with the forum.

== Orange

*             orange@orange-papers.info        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     The world is full of liars who work within the controlled media
**     and bureaucracy and who typically claim that all things which
**     enable people to escape from the debt trap are illegal.
**       ==  James Phipps

May 22, 2009, Friday: Day 22, continued: The goslings of the family that adopted the orphan. The orphan is the small one in the middle that is pushing its way into the center of the goslings.

[More gosling photos below, here.]

[ Link here = http://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters244.html#Daniel_M ]

Date: Fri, June 17, 2011 1:16 am     (answered 22 June 2011)
From: "DANIEL MCC."
Subject: Why the Bitterness Toward AA?

You know just enough about AA to be dangerous. You obviously know the literature and perhaps the history of AA but you have obviously miss the point of the program. AA has saved millions of lives. Bill Wilson, with all his flaws, is listed in the top 100 most influential people of the 20th century. You've got most of the slogans except one very important one: " Take what you need and leave the rest." I'm fascinated why someone would go to such lengths to discredit the program. I just celebrated 13 years. Are you an an alcoholic? You obviously have a huge resentment against the program. Here's the deal Mr Orange: In order for AA to "work" an individual needs 3 things: Open-mindedness, Willingness and Honesty. These are not new concepts. As a matter of fact, AA principals are not new. Look at any of the great world religions and you will find them. Yet it is not a religion or a cult. AA doe not even fit the definition of a cult. I suggest you look up the definition. An individual must WANT help. And in order for someone WANT help they must hit what is known as a bottom which is nothing more than reaching a point in their disease where they have a moment of honesty. A brief bit of clarity. Grace, if you will, whereby they can see the damage they've done to themselves and others. Whereby they see that the way of life they've been living is no longer working and that perhaps there's a better way. Or, better yet, that they are not GOD or the center of the universe. I'm and atheist. My higher power is the AA group, nature, the wonders of the universe. I was raised Catholic. when I got to AA, I had not faith, no trust. Today I have an overwhelming feeling that in the middle of life's shit storms, everything will eventually work out-it will be OK and I never have to go through any painful life situations alone again, unless I CHOOSE TO. That is a direct result of participating in AA. As much or as little as I CHOOSE TOO. Nobody gives a shit whether your there or not because it's a want some-get some program. We are there first and foremost for ourselves. But then we realize the universal paradox of life: When I extend my hand to another suffer individual (in this case an alcoholic who is suffering, I HELP MYSELF. Because when I'm helping you, I'm not thinking of me-fear of what I don't have or what I'm afraid I'm going to lose. It's called selfish-self-centered fear. The kind of fear you are exhibiting in your criticism of AA

Thanks to AA I now have an awareness of how my actions effect others. I now understand that in all conflict I have with others, I probably have a part in it. Why is that important? Because one of the main hallmarks of the alcoholic is Blaming Others. On page 90 of the "Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions" there is a well known spiritual axiom that states: " Every time I am disturbed NOT MATTER WHAT THE CAUSE there is something wrong with us." This isn't a religious concept. You see I have a "daily reprieve" from this disease (picking up a drink or drug) "based on my "spiritual condition." It has nothing to do with religion! In order for me to stay sober one day at a time, I must stay comfortable in my own skin one day at a time. How do I do that? By being patient, kind, tolerant kind and understanding of others, to the best of my ability. Stay Honest, Open to feedback from other alcoholic whom I trust, and being Willing to take action that may make me uncomfortable. Man's ego is man's biggest enemy. Tell me you disagree with that. And the alcoholic is "an extreme example of self-will run riot, though he usually doesn't think so." BB of AA

Finally, your criticism of the founders of AA is laughable. They're human beings for god's sake. Did your father beat you? Seriously- I'm not being flippant. You've obviously had a poor relationship with your parents. Have you had family members for whom the program "didn't work?" AA does not leave US — We leave AA. It's the best therapy ANYONE — alcoholic or not — can get for a buck.

Another thing. Do you know the purpose of Alcoholic Anonymous? It can be summed up in 7 words. "To Find A Power Greater Than Ourselves." That power can be ANYTHING that works for US. I knew a old timer who used to wear a doorknob around his neck to meetings. We did not judge him. If it works for him, so be it. He no longer wears it. Why? In recovery we start on a spiritual path. All human being are on one, though most aren't event aware of it. We start at point A and continue on it until the day we die. If we relapse, hopefully we hopefully will get back on the path. But there is no point B. We don't arrive at a point in our recovery where by we've "arrived." So my door knob friend began to grow and change the longer he's been in AA. We have little epiphanies along the way-spiritual awakenings. If we get stuck, we can ask for help. Or we don't. We are accepted no matter what. When we say: Keep coming back no matter what!" Do you even know what that means? the "no matter what" refers to the fact that even if you've had something to drink, don't stop coming! This crap about being kicked out of AA is ridiculous.

I decided not to go down you list of bullet points and argue each one. It would be quite easy to do. You've obviously never spent any amount of time in a quality meeting. If you have, your ego got the best of you. Our ego's want us out of there. It's obvious judging by your ranting, that you have completely missed the point of the program. Remember, AA is just a microcosm of society- we're human being who have acknowledge we need to get well. The best we get to become in AA is human. We come from all walks of life and share a common problem but have found a common solution. We can say " I don't know" where, in the past, we had an answer for everything because our ego's wouldn't allow us to look bad.

Finally, I invite you to read pp. 47 of the "Twelve and Twelve-2nd paragraph. It speaks to vengeful resentments, self-pity and unwarranted pride. (resentments are the "number one offender" meaning a resentment not dealt with will most likely cause the alky to drink again) But I'm quite certain you won't. so here's a bit of it. This is you, my friend-in a nut shell:

" In AA we slowly learned that something had to be done about our vengeful resentments, self-pity, and unwarranted pride. We had to see that every time we played the big shot, we turned people against us. We had to see that when we harbored grudges and planned revenge for such defeats, we were REALLY BEATING OURSELVES WITH THE CLUB OF ANGER WE HAD INTENDED TO USE ON OTHERS (in your case AA) We learned that if we were seriously disturbed (and guess what most HUMAN BEINGS ALCOHOLIC OR NOT ARE) our first need was to quiet the disturbance, regardless of who or what we THOUGHT caused it. To see how erratic emotions victimized us often took a long time. We could perceive them quickly in others, but only slowly in ourselves. First of all we had to admit that we had many of these defects, even though such disclosures were painful and humiliating. Where other people were concerned, we had to drop the word "blame" from our speech and thought. This required great WILLINGNESS even to begin. But once over the first 2 or 3 high hurdles, the course ahead began to look easier. For we had started to get perspective on ourselves, which is another way to saying that we were gaining in HUMILITY."

I hope you find peace from the torment of whatever experience brought you to the point of having to try to discredit Alcoholics Anonymous. The program DOES work for those that WANT to stay sober. But if the only thing you get is physical sobriety, then you've missed the point. Your statistics are irrelevant. In 1998, I sat in a room of 18 people in an out-patient program and the counselor said, "Look around the room. 2 of you will be sober a year from now" . My reaction? I looked around the room and said to myself, " I wonder who it will be?" Because I knew it wasn't going to be me! Why? because I had already MADE A DECISION and had begun to do EVERYTHING THAT WAS SUGGESTED by those I had recently met in the rooms of AA. I WANTED WHAT AA HAD TO OFFER. Try to GET that one. You've apparently missed it.

Dan

Whitter, CA

Hello Dan,

Thanks for the letter. Wow. What a stream of misinformation and propaganda.

Starting at the top,

1. You asked, "Why so bitter towards A.A.?"
   The answer is, because A.A. is a fraud that hurts more people than it helps. A.A. is just quack medicine that does not heal people.

2. Then you made the claim that A.A. has helped millions. No, it hasn't. That is just the standard A.A. Big Lie. When Dr. George E.Vaillant, who is well-known for being one of the most vocal and proselytizing members of the Board of Directors of A.A. tried to prove that A.A. works, he accidentally proved that A.A. kills, and A.A. does not heal anybody. Dr. Vaillant discovered that no way of treating alcoholism had a higher death rate than Alcoholics Anonymous.

   You should also read the rest of that file for other doctors' tests of A.A., and their discovery that A.A. did nasty things like just raising the rate of binge drinking.

3. Then you stated that Bill Wilson was rated as one of the most 100 most influential people of the 20th century. Yes, he was, right along with Adolf Hitler. I am well aware of the TIME Magazine list. Have you read it? And guess who wrote the fawning puff-piece about Bill Wilson that was printed in TIME? It was Susan Cheever, the sycophant who declared that it was really okay for Bill Wilson to be a sexual predator who preyed on sick women who came to A.A., and that it was okay for Bill Wilson to practice necromancy and claim that he routinely talked to the spirits of the dead.

4. Then you claimed: 'You've got most of the slogans except one very important one: " Take what you need and leave the rest."'
   
   Wrong. I've listed that one so many times that it would be hard to count how many times I've printed it. So I'll just point you to the examination of that slogan as a bait-and-switch trick:

   • First, they will tell you that you can "Take what you want, and leave the rest." Then they will tell you that you must follow the formula exactly, or else it won't work.

   • First, they will tell you that you can "Take what you want, and leave the rest." Then they will tell you that you can't ever leave.

5. Then you said, "I'm fascinated why someone would go to such lengths to discredit the program. I just celebrated 13 years. Are you an an alcoholic?"
   As I said before, I am against A.A. because A.A. kills more people than it helps. Congratulations on your 13 years. I just celebrated 10 years of sobriety without participation in A.A. And yes, I am an alcoholic, if by "alcoholic" you mean someone who used to drink far too much alcohol, until the doctor said it was going to kill him, and now cannot drink at all.

6. Then you said, "You obviously have a huge resentment against the program."
   Congratulations, you just became the zillionth Stepper to accuse me of "having a resentment". Here is the list. Wow. You A.A. members all get indoctrinated with the same lines, don't you?

7. Then you declared,

   Here's the deal Mr Orange: In order for AA to "work" an individual needs 3 things: Open-mindedness, Willingness and Honesty. These are not new concepts. As a matter of fact, AA principals are not new. Look at any of the great world religions and you will find them. Yet it is not a religion or a cult. AA doe not even fit the definition of a cult. I suggest you look up the definition.
   

   That is totally A.A. propaganda. Your "HOW" slogan is just more cult babble, claiming the alcoholics have to be "spiritual" for the A.A. program to work. (So of course when A.A. doesn't work, it's the fault of those darned unspiritual alcoholics, right?)

   Then you claimed that the A.A. "principals" are not new. (A principal is the boss of a school. A principle is a something like a moral rule.) A.A. has no principles. The 12 Steps are just Bill Wilson's list of Dr. Frank Buchman's Oxford Group cult practices, so yes, they are not new. And no, you will not find Frank Buchman's heretical cult religion practices in all of the great religions of the world. Read the file on The Heresy of the Twelve Steps.

   Of course A.A. is a cult. It fits the definition perfectly. And A.A. passes the cult test with flying colors. Read the Cult Test. (I have read zillions of the A.A. books, so you can read one of mine.)

   You can also look at a list of definitions of "cult" here. Pay particular attention to definition 8 from Random House:

   • Cult (Random House Unabridged Dictionary, Second Edition, 1993.)
     n.
     
     • 1. a particular system of religious worship, esp. with reference to its rites and ceremonies.
     • 2. an instance of great veneration of a person, ideal, or thing, esp. as manifested by a body of admirers: the physical fitness cult.
     • 4. a group or sect bound together by veneration of the same thing, person, ideal, etc.
     • 5. Sociol. a group having a sacred ideology and a set of rites centering around their sacred symbols.
     • 6. a religion or sect considered considered to be false, unorthodox, or extremist, with members often living outside of conventional society under the direction of a charismatic leader.
     • 7. the members of such a religion or sect.
     • 8. any system for treating human sickness that originated by a person usually claiming to have sole insight into the nature of disease, and that employs methods regarded as unorthodox or unscientific.

8. Then you claimed,

   An individual must WANT help. And in order for someone WANT help they must hit what is known as a bottom which is nothing more than reaching a point in their disease where they have a moment of honesty.
   

   I agree that people must want to quit drinking in order to quit drinking. No, they don't have to "hit bottom". A.A.'s insistence that people must hit bottom has killed a lot of people, and it is one of the reasons that A.A. has such a high death rate.

   And again, you are just repeating that standard A.A. stereotype of alcoholics: "dishonest". A.A. really hates alcoholics, and regards them with disgust.

9. Then you repeated more of the standard A.A. dogma, including the "not God" insanity:

   A brief bit of clarity. Grace, if you will, whereby they can see the damage they've done to themselves and others. Whereby they see that the way of life they've been living is no longer working and that perhaps there's a better way. Or, better yet, that they are not GOD or the center of the universe. I'm and atheist.
   

   I don't care if you are an atheist. I agree that sick people need to recognize that they are sick and decide to change their lifestyle and improve their health. That has nothing to do with declaring that you are "not God". I drank too much for the better part of 20 years, and I had zillions of drinking buddies, and I never once met an alcoholic who drank alcohol because he thought he was God. That is just Bill Wilson's lunacy, reprinted by Ernest Kurtz.

   Bill Wilson was a raving lunatic who drank so much alcohol that he damaged his brain, and then he went around spouting lunacies like, "Alcoholics must realize that they are not God!" Bill Wilson should have been locked up in a mental institution, but he lucked out and didn't get locked up. In fact, he found a way to get rich by selling his insanity in a book.

   It's a real shame that you have devoted your life to parrotting the ravings of a lunatic.

10. Then you wrote:

    My higher power is the AA group, nature, the wonders of the universe. I was raised Catholic. when I got to AA, I had not faith, no trust. Today I have an overwhelming feeling that in the middle of life's shit storms, everything will eventually work out-it will be OK and I never have to go through any painful life situations alone again, unless I CHOOSE TO. That is a direct result of participating in AA.
    

    The fact that you use A.A. as your "higher power" does not show that A.A. has done anything good. Your little testimonial is proof of nothing. Didn't it ever occur to your that your improved outlook on life is due to not drinking any more alcohol? Alcohol causes brain damage and paranoia, and when you quit drinking, life gets better.

    I also have an immensely improved outlook on life, due to not drinking. Isn't it amazing how your brain heals when you stop drinking alcohol?

11. Then you wrote:

    Nobody gives a shit whether your there or not because it's a want some-get some program. We are there first and foremost for ourselves. But then we realize the universal paradox of life: When I extend my hand to another suffer individual (in this case an alcoholic who is suffering, I HELP MYSELF. Because when I'm helping you, I'm not thinking of me-fear of what I don't have or what I'm afraid I'm going to lose. It's called selfish-self-centered fear. The kind of fear you are exhibiting in your criticism of AA
    

    Foisting cult religion and quack medicine on sick people is not helping them. So you get a kick out of pretending to be a wise sponsor, helping the newcomers, so what? That's just your ego puffing itself up and telling you that you are really good for pushing quack medicine.

    Your last sentence there was incomplete.

12. Then you claimed:

    Thanks to AA I now have an awareness of how my actions effect others.
    

    Oh really? What are the effects of foisting an old pro-Nazi cult religion from the nineteen-thirties on sick people and bragging that it RARELY fails?

13. You continued:

    Thanks to AA I now have an awareness of how my actions effect others. I now understand that in all conflict I have with others, I probably have a part in it. Why is that important? Because one of the main hallmarks of the alcoholic is Blaming Others. On page 90 of the "Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions" there is a well known spiritual axiom that states: " Every time I am disturbed NOT MATTER WHAT THE CAUSE there is something wrong with us." This isn't a religious concept.
    

    That is all standard Buchmanism, and standard cult fare too: You are always wrong. And again, you are pushing the standard A.A. stereotype of "the alcoholic" — he always blames others. But when he learns how to get down on his knees and confess what a piece of shit he really is, then he will be a good Buchmanite. Sieg Heil!

14. Then you gave me another illogical rap:

    In order for me to stay sober one day at a time, I must stay comfortable in my own skin one day at a time. How do I do that? By being patient, kind, tolerant kind and understanding of others, to the best of my ability. Stay Honest, Open to feedback from other alcoholic whom I trust, and being Willing to take action that may make me uncomfortable. Man's ego is man's biggest enemy. Tell me you disagree with that. And the alcoholic is "an extreme example of self-will run riot, though he usually doesn't think so."
    BB of AA
    

    First off, staying sober one day at a time is stupid and illogical, and also very dangerous. Man up and quit forever. Quit that wimpy-ass "I can't face quitting forever" nonsense, and just quit. Get over it.

    Then, saying that you must be comfortable to stay sober is also untrue. Now it is definitely more pleasant to be comfortable, but that is not necessary. What is necessary is to not put any more alcohol in your mouth.

    Then you quote some cultish nonsense like "Stay Honest, Open..." Okay, be honest. You don't have to be comfortable in your skin to stay sober. You only have to refrain from drinking alcohol.

    Then you give the usual "ego" rap. That is bullshit. Just about every cult in the world denounces "ego". It's a common way to subjugate people. All of the cults say that you must "Get rid of ego. Your resistance to the Guru's wonderful teachings is just your ego. Give up your ego and learn to serve God."

    Then you repeated more of Bill Wilson's hateful stereotype of "the alcoholic": "an extreme example of self-will run riot, though he usually doesn't think so."
    Read the file The "Us Stupid Drunks" Conspiracy for much more of that.

15. Then you did some standard Minimization and Denial, which Bill Wilson said alcoholics were really good at:

    Finally, your criticism of the founders of AA is laughable. They're human beings for god's sake. Did your father beat you? Seriously- I'm not being flippant. You've obviously had a poor relationship with your parents. Have you had family members for whom the program "didn't work?" AA does not leave US — We leave AA. It's the best therapy ANYONE — alcoholic or not — can get for a buck.
    

    Well, Adolf Hitler and Heinrich Himmler were only human, for Heaven's sake. Who are we to criticize them?

    Being human is not an excuse for being a liar, a fraud, a phony holy man, a thief and embezzler, and a sexual predator like Bill Wilson. Or a child-abusing religious nutcase like Dr. Bob. I'm sure glad that I don't base my life on the teachings of those two monsters.

    Yes, I had a very bad relationship with my father, who was also an alcoholic. But personally, I don't give a damn that A.A. didn't work for him either. What I care about is the good people whom A.A. is hurting.

    Then you finished with yet another cult slogan, "AA does not leave US — We leave AA."
    Thanks. I actually did not have that one in my list. Now I do. And it's also another antimetabole for the list, too.

    Then you made another false claim: "It's the best therapy ANYONE — alcoholic or not — can get for a buck."
    That is totally untrue. First off, A.A. is not therapy, it is superstitious old cult religion.

    Then, A.A. is the worst way to treat alcoholism. The A.A. leader Dr. George E. Vaillant proved that, remember? Nothing else killed the alcoholics like how A.A. did.

    There are many better FREE ways of treating alcoholism, including SMART, SOS, Lifering, and WFS. They all work better than A.A., they all kill fewer people, and they are all free.

16. Then you explained to me that Alcoholics Anonymous really is a cult religion:

    Another thing. Do you know the purpose of Alcoholic Anonymous? It can be summed up in 7 words. "To Find A Power Greater Than Ourselves." That power can be ANYTHING that works for US. I knew a old timer who used to wear a doorknob around his neck to meetings. We did not judge him. If it works for him, so be it. He no longer wears it.
    

    That is lunacy. That is insane. Can't you see that? What is wrong with your eyes? You actually think that someone can worship a doorknob as his god and it will make him quit drinking? And that is okay? What happened to your ideas of sanity? And how is a doorknob a "higher power"?

17. You continued with your apology for the cult religion:

    Why? In recovery we start on a spiritual path. All human being are on one, though most aren't event aware of it. We start at point A and continue on it until the day we die. If we relapse, hopefully we hopefully will get back on the path. But there is no point B. We don't arrive at a point in our recovery where by we've "arrived." So my door knob friend began to grow and change the longer he's been in AA. We have little epiphanies along the way-spiritual awakenings. If we get stuck, we can ask for help. Or we don't. We are accepted no matter what. When we say: Keep coming back no matter what!" Do you even know what that means? the "no matter what" refers to the fact that even if you've had something to drink, don't stop coming! This crap about being kicked out of AA is ridiculous.
    

    That doesn't sound too bad. I can also believe that we are on a spiritual path. It's funny that an atheist feels qualified to lecture me about spirituality.

    Your claim that the cult gradually brainwashed the doorknob worshipper into some other beliefs is not evidence that A.A. is a great thing.

    Of course I challenge your assumption that Alcoholics Anonymous is a spiritual path. If it were really spiritual, they would start telling the truth, instead of lying about everything from the A.A. recovery rate to the history of A.A. to what kind of a creep Bill Wilson really was.

    Kicked out of A.A.? Funny that you should bring up that subject. Didn't you hear about the big flap about the atheist A.A. groups in Toronto getting delisted?

    Secular Alcoholics Anonymous Groups in Toronto Have Been Kicked Out of AA:
    http://friendlyatheist.com/2011/06/04/secular-alcoholics-anonymous-groups-in-toronto-have-been-kicked-out-of-aa/

    http://www.alternet.org/health/151294/is_there_a_place_for_atheists_in_alcoholics_anonymous

18. Then this is just the standard A.A. ad hominem attack. It's funny how so many Steppers just have to close their letters with the same standard attacks: "You have a resentment. You have ego, etc..." Of course none of that has anything to do with the A.A. success rate or failure rate in sobering up alcoholics. Steppers use such dumb attacks because they don't have many real evidence that what I am saying is wrong.

    I decided not to go down you list of bullet points and argue each one. It would be quite easy to do. You've obviously never spent any amount of time in a quality meeting. If you have, your ego got the best of you. Our ego's want us out of there. It's obvious judging by your ranting, that you have completely missed the point of the program. Remember, AA is just a microcosm of society — we're human being who have acknowledge we need to get well. The best we get to become in AA is human. We come from all walks of life and share a common problem but have found a common solution. We can say " I don't know" where, in the past, we had an answer for everything because our ego's wouldn't allow us to look bad.
    

    I have not "completely missed the point of the program". The "point of the program" was supposed to be to sober up alcoholics and save their lives. A.A. fails to do that. Everything else is irrelevant after that. Again, you are just indulging in Minimization and Denial. Denial isn't just a river in Egypt.

19. Then you quoted some of Bill Wilson's sickest stuff, while saying that I wouldn't look at it. I have not only looked at it, I analyzed Bill's sickness in 12X12 at length.

    Finally, I invite you to read pp. 47 of the "Twelve and Twelve — 2nd paragraph. It speaks to vengeful resentments, self-pity and unwarranted pride. (resentments are the "number one offender" meaning a resentment not dealt with will most likely cause the alky to drink again) But I'm quite certain you won't. so here's a bit of it. This is you, my friend-in a nut shell:
    

    Then you reprinted a lot of Bill Wilson's hatred of alcoholics from page 49 of 12X12, where Bill Wilson raved about how sinful they are, and how bad and egotistical they are, and how unspiritual they are. Those alcoholics aren't nearly as good and spiritual as the lying, thieving, sexual predator fake holy man Bill Wilson.

    I analyzed Bill's treatment of alcoholics in 12X12 years ago, here. Check it out.

20. Then you finished with another illogical argument:

    I hope you find peace from the torment of whatever experience brought you to the point of having to try to discredit Alcoholics Anonymous. The program DOES work for those that WANT to stay sober. But if the only thing you get is physical sobriety, then you've missed the point. Your statistics are irrelevant. In 1998, I sat in a room of 18 people in an out-patient program and the counselor said, "Look around the room. 2 of you will be sober a year from now" . My reaction? I looked around the room and said to myself, " I wonder who it will be?" Because I knew it wasn't going to be me! Why? because I had already MADE A DECISION and had begun to do EVERYTHING THAT WAS SUGGESTED by those I had recently met in the rooms of AA. I WANTED WHAT AA HAD TO OFFER. Try to GET that one. You've apparently missed it.
    

    Actually, statistics matter a lot. "The point" of Alcoholics Anonymous was supposed to be that their program would make alcoholics quit drinking. A.A. fails to do that, and that is why A.A. true believers don't like the statistics, and make stupid statements like that "statistics don't matter".

    That is just as wrong as insisting that the statistics for a cancer cure don't matter: "It doesn't matter how many people die after they take this cancer medicine, statistics don't matter. What matters is that the patients yammer happy slogans as they die."

    Not!

    The rest of your rap there shows that you had already decided to quit drinking before you went to your first A.A. meeting. Then you did. That is the essence of it. People decide to quit drinking, and then they do. That's how all of the successful people quit. Joining a cult religion is unnecessary and irrelevant.

    Unfortunately, at the same time, you did join a cult religion, and you got brainwashed into believing a bunch of nonsense. Now you spend your life living that nonsense, and defending it, and promoting it. That's too bad. What a waste.

== Orange

*             orange@orange-papers.info        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     "...AA certainly functions as a cult and systematically
**     indoctrinates its members in ways common to cults the
**     world over.  ...in the absence of proven scientific
**     efficacy, critics are legitimate in suggesting that
**     mandated AA attendance may be criticized as a failure
**     of proper separation between church and state."
**     == A.A. Trustee Prof. Dr. George E. Vaillant,
**     The Natural History Of Alcoholism Revisited, page 266.

May 22, 2009, Friday: Day 22, continued: The family that adopted the orphans, along with some pigeons that are scrounging some munchies. The orphan is the small one on the left.

[The story of Carmen continues here.]

[The previous letter from Wendy_N is here.]

[ Link here = http://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters244.html#Wendy_N ]

Date: Fri, June 17, 2011 7:37 am     (answered 22 June 2011)
From: "Wendy N."
Subject: AA

Hi Orange, and thank you so much for replying to my last letter. I'm sure you get heaps, so in it I said how I was gutted about Bill Wilson being a 13th stepper. It reminds me of my own painful experience, and it makes anything Bill Wilson has to say a complete nonsense. So, I've been in crisis about AA. Plus the rest of what you have to say.

I want to break away, and see what happens. I have a very good friend, who also has a child, and I've been a lot involved with them for 16 months. Well, she's an ardent believer of NA and AA. So, she gets me to go to a meeting. Afterwards, I tell her what I found out about Bill Wilson. She didn't deny it, she tried to say that he was only human. Well, so are paedophiles and satanic abusers. I HATE 'only human' as a whitewash.

I told her that Bill W has got nothing to say to me. She starts accusing me of being angry, bitter, resentful and judgemental.

So, I'm in pain about that too. I just feel vulnerable. I also have a history of going to a crazy cult-like drug and alcohol rehab, when I was 27 and very desperate. I was in this place for 5 months, it was severely abusive (psychologically) and I had a mental breakdown afterwards. To think, I STAYED in that place!!!! And now, I have to face that AA is not what it makes out to be. It's a big blow.

Ah, but there's a hint of freedom in all of this. I DON'T have to swallow AA doctrine anymore, I DON'T have to plan regular meetings anymore, FUCK THE STEPS!!!!! (I can't tell you how many people get up and say 'do the steps, you gotta do the steps.)

I think I've spent my entire adult life (since 23) being told how to live. Enough already.

Take care, orange.
Wendy

Hi again, Wendy,

I'm glad to hear that you are feeling freer.

What a funny coincidence: the writer of the previous letter also argued that Bill Wilson and Dr. Bob were only human, so we shouldn't criticize them. My answer was that Adolf Hitler and Heinrich Himmler were also only human, so we shouldn't criticize them? What a lame-ass Minimization and Denial kind of excuse.

Then the Stepper accused you of "being angry, bitter, resentful and judgemental." Yes, that is the standard cult response — ad hominem. They can't handle the truth, and they cannot deal with the real facts, so they just attack the messenger. I got the same thing in the last letter too: "You have a resentment. You are egotistical."

What the true believers in Steppism cannot seem to get through their heads is, it does not matter how much I might have a resentment, or whether I have an ego. That does not change the actual A.A. failure rate by one little percentage point.

I hope you don't feel any more pain over what the Steppers say. Remember that they literally don't know what they are doing. They are just parrotting the ravings of a nutcase.

But now you are free. So have a good day and a good life.

== Orange

*             orange@orange-papers.info        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     Know that I love you; stay as free as you can.
**       ==  Lowell Ponte

[ Link here = http://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters244.html#Miss_A_Nonymous2 ]

[The previous letter from Miss_A_Nonymous is here.]

Date: Fri, June 17, 2011 12:22 pm     (answered 22 June 2011)
From: "Miss_A_Nonymous"
Subject: Re: "I am a member of Clancy's family" Follow up

Hi. Just to make it clear... AG is co-ed. Not everyone there is in Clancy's line, but a big portion are, seeing as my sponsor alone has 18 sponsees (all female, that's what I was referring to) and the group has its roots in the Pacific Group. Her sponsor, who now lives in Seattle, still sponsors several people in AG as well. There were quite a few males from California at the retreat I mentioned with female sponsors, but AG places a big emphysis on sticking with the same gender for sponsorship and for making friends in the first year. Gay people are sometimes the exception. The group is very traditional in thinking that mixing genders is going to equal one big sexual arousing mess.

Hi again, Miss A. Nonymous,

Now that is interesting. What I find especially interesting is that Clancy's downlines can have such radically different attitudes towards sex and sponsorship. Clancy even refused to criticize Mike Quinones for the sexual exploitation practices in the Midtown Group, and yet the Atlantic Group is a bunch of conservatives on the subject.

Interesting, very interesting.

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             orange@orange-papers.info        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     If the truth is that ugly — which it is — then we don't have
**     to be careful about the way that we tell the truth.  But to
**     say somehow that telling the truth should be avoided because
**     people may respond badly to the truth seems bizarre to me.
**       ==  Chuck Skoro, Deacon

[ Link here = http://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters244.html#Chris_G ]

Date: Fri, June 17, 2011 8:34 pm     (answered 23 June 2011)
From: "Chris G."
Subject: AA as a cult webpage feedback.

Hi... thanks for the information. Thought provoking and certainly challenging data.

What checkable evidence is there for the Bill Wilson financial and 13 stepping allegations?

Well written and very interesting.

Chris G.

Hello Chris,

Thanks for the compliments.

You can start with these pages:

1. Bill and The Other Women
2. Birth of BigBook
3. Birth of BigBook II: Financial Analysis of the Creation of the Big Book

== Orange

*             orange@orange-papers.info        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     "You can always tell when someone isn't telling the truth,
**     because he doesn't speak clearly. Euphemism is a cover for either
**     ignorance or dishonesty. In other words, if you can't state it in
**     a clear simple declarative sentence, then either you don't know
**     what you are talking about, or you are trying to prevent me from
**     understanding what you are talking about, and both bug me."
**        ==  Tucker Carlson, in an advertisement for his TV program
**     "Unfiltered" on Public Television, August 6 to 27, 2004.

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Last updated 19 January 2013.
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