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Date: Sun, June 5, 2011 1:26 pm (answered 8 June 2011) Subject: Hello and a few questions for you :) Hey There, Orange. I have a few questions for you, if you've got a second. First, would you say you were more liberal or libertarian? I know, it says you're indie on your FB information. Also, are you a supporter of Jack Tripley? I think some of Jack's ideas are interesting and superior to the AA ideology; however, I mostly think he is overly consevative, pedantic, and maybe even slightly crazy. In this same line, I would like to know your thoughts on Stanton Peele; I think he is OK, particulaly in comparison with Jack. And he's got a great voice to listen to. I am also wondering if you are a reader of fiction (I think you probably tend to read current nonfiction, right?) and if so, who are your favorite authors.
Much thanks and have a super day,
Hello Megan,
That's a bunch of interesting questions.
Well, starting at the top:
I once read a "libertarian" novel. I wish I could remember the name
of it. But the gist of it was that this young man
who was just setting out in the world got a money-belt from his father, filled with gold coins, and for the
rest of the novel, he bought what he needed. If he needed some security or mercenary fighters to help him
in a fight,
he hired them. He bought all of the tools and equipment that he needed for his adventures and exploits.
He never partook of social services, because there weren't any in his world. From
the beginning to the end of the novel, he simply paid his way and bought what he wanted.
And eventually, he triumphed over the bad guys and got the girl and all of that.
The problem with that story is obvious. If Daddy Warbucks hadn't given the kid the gold coins, he wouldn't
have accomplished anything. That was not a story of the independent self-reliant man taking care of himself
in a tough world, it was the story of a kid in a shopping mall with Daddy's credit cards.
The entire Libertarian philosophy has the same problem. So do Ayn Rand's delusions.
There is no such thing as a self-made man. I'm sure
that his Mama has strong opinions on the subject of who made him.
I disagree with Trimpey's harsh denunciations of addicts and alcoholics. He calls them immoral. I don't. The way
I see it, we are all just trying to make it through the night. At least half of all addicts and alcoholics are suffering
from underlying conditions like mental illness, child abuse issues, rape issues, and the like, and they are
just trying to kill the pain and get straight. That isn't immoral.
The last fiction that I can remember reading is William Gibson —
things like "Neuromancer", "Burning Chrome", "Johnny Mnemonic",
and "The Difference Engine".
That last one is a real hoot. What if Charles Babbage had finished his gearwheel computer in the Victorian
era, and Great Britain had become the computing powerhouse of the world? It almost happened.
It's a very realistic plot.
The only reason that it didn't happen is because Babbage's family was angry about the large amounts of
money (the whole family fortune) that he was spending on his computer, so they had him declared insane and
stopped the project.
But if things had been a little different, things would be very different.
By the way, the society of "friends of Babbage" finished his Difference Engine in 1991, and it worked perfectly.
Charles Babbage knew what he was doing. And his girlfriend, Lady Ada, was the world's first computer programmer,
too. She was writing programs for the thing before it was even finished.
Have a good day now.
== Orange
Date: Sun, June 5, 2011 3:00 pm (answered 8 June 2011) Hey Orange, How can this nice piece of insight get "linked" to the OP Forums?? (Sorry I do not possess the computer know-how to "link" it to a different location (e.g. "OP Forums").
Hi John,
Yes, you and Jeff make a bunch of good points there. The one that really stands out to me is the
fact that health insurance policies put a limit on treatment of drug and alcohol problems.
The last health insurance policy that I had would send somebody to
alcoholism treatment just one time, ever.
But there were no such limits on the treatment of cancer or heart attacks or AIDS or diabetes
or car accidents or anything else...
That is highly revealing. If alcoholism was really a disease, would that even be legal?
I'll copy this letter to the forum, here:
Have a good day now.
== Orange
Date: Tue, June 7, 2011 2:46 am (answered 8 June 2011) Thanks Orange. I wanted to tell you thank you so much for everything you are doing. And to Tom H. could you give example of how Orange is one angry dude? I see him as being passionate about exposing aa as well as other issues. I love his writing and my question to you is, what are you doing to help make more people aware of the atrocities that are happening within aa? You thinking Terry is angry is comical. You don't just seem angry but filled with animosity towards the guy. And just bitter in general. Let me guess though your a right-winger huh? Sorry Terry I know you wanted this on the forum, you don't need to reply back. Just wanted to get my two cents in. Btw I have been reading your site for years now and have come to have so much admiration for you. Take care. Jennifer
Okay, Jennifer,
Thanks for the compliments, and have a good day now.
Oh, and I'll get it to the forum for you, here:
== Orange
Date: Tue, June 7, 2011 4:23 am (answered 8 June 2011) Hello again Terrance, greetings. The following quote is from your reply to my letter in 'Letters 232'. "I don't understand what you mean by this statement:
The spontaneous remission rate for alcoholics is 5%; the 'success' rate for AA is 5%, no better than doing nothing at all. This is only true */if the spontaneous remission people disappear/* and that is our problem, /*they are still around*/." Yes, it is poorly worded by me, to clarify:- People quit booze on their own without any outside help (spontaneous remission) at a rate of 5%. Along comes AA with a 'success' rate of 5%. If this is in addition to spontaneous remission then the 'quit booze' rate nearly doubles to near 10% and AA is successful. (5% + AA's 5% of the other 95%) However, if the spontaneous remission rate falls to 0%, i.e. AA simply mops up those who were about to quit on their own anyway, then AA is useless. This is what I was trying to say, "This (AA is useless) is only true if the spontaneous remissiom people disappear (into AA) and that is our problem, they are still around (the spontaneous remission rate has not fallen to 0%, loads of people still quit on their own outside AA)". There you are, clear as mud! Best Regards and keep up the good work. Gordon.
Hi again, Gordon,
I see what the problem is. You are thinking of the spontaneous remission rate as a variable
(that might change in response to A.A.). Think of the spontaneous remission rate as a constant,
something that is just there no matter what.
The spontaneous remission rate will be the same no matter whether alcoholics get no help or treatment at all,
or go to the local Tiddly-Winks Society, or to the Ladies' Home Garden Club, or to A.A.
When A.A. produces a zero-percent improvement in the sobriety rate of alcoholics, it will appear
to have a 5% success rate. But the A.A. program is not due the credit for those recoveries.
That's just the normal rate of spontaneous remission.
Those are the people who would have quit drinking anyway.
And the A.A. success rate doesn't rise to 10%, because A.A. has no success rate of its own to add
to the normal rate of spontaneous remission. The observed success rate just stays flat at 5%.
Have a good day now.
== Orange
Date: Tue, June 7, 2011 2:59 pm (answered 8 June 2011) ...I don't know what the meetings are like where you live? But where I am from people in AA will go out of their way to help you, and expect nothing from you in return. How can that possibly ever be a bad thing? Sure, AA is not perfect. It's ran by a bunch of ex-drunks!... We're all just muddling through doing the best we can... So if you were expecting something perfect when you arrived, sadly you were always destined for disappointment... I've read a little of your stuff and I have to say I do not believe you for one second when you state that your motives for creating this site are out of some genuine care to expose the 'evils' of AA and protect the general public... Personally, I think you just got burned by a fellow drunk... Probably a chick. Well, guess what? You're not the first and won't be the last. Danny (UK)
Hello Daniel,
Thanks for the letter. That's a bunch of good examples of propaganda techniques, including
The Statistics of Small Numbers means that you only observe a small number of cases
and then generalize a big picture, as in,
Defenders of A.A. use similar bad logic:
"I've been to 20 different A.A. meetings, and never saw a girl get taken advantage of."
But A.A. likes to brag that there are many hundreds of A.A. meetings in every city — hundreds of
thousands of meetings in the world. Just because you
didn't see something doesn't mean that it didn't happen someplace else.
In addition, failure to see something does not prove that it does not exist. Absence of evidence is
not evidence of absence.
By the way, I get reports of bad things happening in A.A. in the U.K. too.
The Glittering Generality is trying to paint A.A. as a wonderful faultless organization:
If that were an accurate picture of Alcoholics Anonymous, then it would not be a bad thing.
But there is much more to A.A.: the 13th-Stepping and sexual exploitation of girls and women,
the insane cult religion nutcases telling sick people not to take their medications and just
trust God and the 12 Steps to heal them, and the mental cases acting as sponsors and trying to
tell other people how to live, just for starters.
Then there is the whole delusional idea that
Frank Buchman's crazy fascist cult religion is a cure for
alcoholism.
Read the list of A.A. horror stories for lots more examples:
A.A. horror stories here.
The Minimization and Denial is obvious.
"Sure, A.A. is not perfect..."
Even when hundreds of people write in, reporting their
bad experiences and problems with A.A., you just minimize and deny the evidence. Denial isn't just a
river in Egypt.
The Spurious Delegitimization is trying to claim that a girl is to blame for all of my criticism
of A.A.
Actually, the person who really yanked my chain was a dogmatic 12-Step-oriented "counselor" who turned
out to be an Internet child pornographer and coke-head child rapist.
You can read about him here.
Have a good day now.
== Orange
Date: Mon, June 6, 2011 8:33 pm (answered 8 June 2011) Hi orange! I'm wondering if you have any advice on the matter of revenge. A friend and i have been unable to move beyond a desire for sweet revenge on AA. We refuse to accept that the best revenge is living well, because what good is it if they don't know, or dismiss you as 'just a hard drinker'? We both want to cause AA some pain. But AA is so slippery! Ho do you harm an organisation that is just a composite of individuals? Smugness seems a good weapon, but once again, who's going to know about it if you don't go to meetings? We really admire your efforts to hurt the ideas of AA. Do you have any ideas? Has anyone else asked you this before? Kate
Hi Kate,
Thanks for the question. Oh, that is a tough one. One of the toughest of all.
Coincidentally, just last night there was a human interest story on the evening news.
About fifteen years ago, a woman's teenage son was shot and killed by
another teenager in a stupid juvenile squabble. And it was her only son.
The killer was sentenced to 15 years in prison.
Remarkably, the mother ended up visiting the killer in prison, and befriending him.
She said that at first she did it because she was a Christian, and if there was a chance
to reach the young man, and help him to be a better person, she had to do it. Later, she did it because she
got to know the guy and actually like him. When he got out of prison, she even got him
housing next door to her.
Here is the punch line: When asked about the forgiveness, the woman said
that she didn't do it for the young man, she did it for herself.
She said that anger and hatred are like a cancer that will eat you from the inside out.
She just had to let go of the anger to be able to live.
That is the big important point: She did it for herself, not for the other guy.
I also have my own list of people I'd like to get revenge on, but I have to let it go.
If I keep that list, and dwell on it, I will just end up an angry bitter old man.
The world has enough of them already, thank you anyway.
Now that does not mean that you do nothing. You can use your feelings and your energy to expose A.A.
for what it is.
You can write and speak and post, and read and learn more.
But please remember that the individual people who make up A.A. are just sick, deluded people
who imagine that practicing an old pro-fascist cult religion will accomplish great things.
They are of course insane.
Then, I know that there are genuinely evil people in A.A. too: the monsters who delight in sexually
exploiting the girls, and the tyrants who enjoy lording it over the newcomers and sponsees, and
the fools who don't care who else they hurt in pursuit of their own ego gratification.
They are harder to forgive. But still, you have to let it go, or else the anger will just eat your guts out.
So you can start by writing to your Congressman (or Congresswoman) and two Senators, telling them about
the hoax that the 12-Step treatment industry is foisting on America while consuming precious taxpayer
dollars.
Writing on paper is much better than emailing, and has more effect, and your letter stays around longer.
Then you can just keep on speaking the truth. The truth is the mortal enemy of the Big Lie, and that is
what A.A. is, a big lie. If enough people knew the truth, A.A. would collapse and vanish like all of
those strange old cult religions from the eighteen hundreds that we never even hear of any more.
Heck, for that matter,
have you even heard of any Rajneeshies lately? Or followers of Rev. Jim Jones's People's Temple?
Seen any Hari Krishnas? Heaven's Gate? Synanon? As the truth gets out, those things just whither and die.
And don't worry about whether the people in those A.A. meetings know what you are doing. They will, eventually,
as their membership walks away and the group shrinks.
And they will, when they find that newcomers are better informed, and ask too many discerning questions.
Have a good day now, and a good life.
== Orange
[More gosling photos below, here.]
Date: Tue, June 7, 2011 9:57 pm (answered 9 June 2011) Good stuff, but a waste of time. The programs do work even if one person has been saved. Please find something more constructive to spend your time. Your attempt to undermine the fellowships is equivalent to Scientology attempting to undermine the Catholic religion. Reality is it will never happen. Best Regards, Christopher
Hello Christopher,
Thanks for the letter. The lame rationalization that A.A. is okay "even if one person has been
saved" is without merit. The truth is, A.A. kills more people with misinformation and
quack medicine than it ever saves.
Even a member of the Board of Trustees of Alcoholics Anonymous World Services, Inc., proved that.
Look here.
Telling the truth about the the 12-Step cult religion fraud that is
called "the recovery industry" is not like Scientology.
Scientology is a hoax very much like Alcoholics Anonymous.
Both are cult religions that were founded by a raving lunatic.
Both have their holy scriptures that are just plain wrong.
Both sell a fairy tale as a cure for deadly addiction problems.
The only difference between two is that A.A. wants your mind, your life and your soul, while Scientology
wants your mind, your life, your soul, and your money.
Scientology calls their "addiction cure" racket "Narconon".
Have a good day.
== Orange
From: "Facebook" Subject: valliant's statistics Orange- I was reading your website as I often do, and I saw this info re: Vaillant- http://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters206.html#Vaillant Where the hell does AA get this info that it publishes in their literature? Do you have any idea? Thanks for your work man. Peace.
Grapevine: You said about 40 percent of the people who remain abstinent do it through AA. What about the other 60 percent? Could we in AA be more open, more supportive of these?
Hello Daniel,
Thanks for the question. That's a great question.
Where do they get their numbers? Well, they just make them up. Even George Vaillant was giving
out false information there. Perhaps you thought that he was being generous and honest by admitting that 60%
of the sober people did it without A.A.? Nope. He wasn't telling the truth either.
Here is the truth:
So the NIAAA says that 75% quit drinking alone, on their own. The most that A.A. could possibly have
is 25%, not 40%. But A.A. doesn't get that remaining 25%. Not even close.
That 25% includes everybody else who ever got any kind of help or "treatment".
That 25% includes people who went to the Catholic Church and participated in the
Calix or St. Vincent DePaul programs.
Or did a fundamentalist Protestant program like
Saddleback.
Or went to the Salvation Army program.
Or did the Veterans' Administration program.
Or went to SMART, SOS, WFS, Rational Recovery, or the like.
Or got "treatment" from a "treatment center".
I fall into that last category, theoretically. I allegedly went through a treatment program.
The State of Oregon Health Plan (OHP) paid $1700 for my "treatment".
But
all that it amounted to was
three "group therapy" sessions per week,
conducted by a cocaine-snorting Internet-pornographer child-molester who
yammered a lot of A.A. slogans and insisted that we must
have a "higher power" in our "recovery program".
And then they stuck acupuncture needles in us and said that it reduced our cravings.
And then he told us to go to at least three A.A. or N.A. meetings per week.
Oh, and they made us piss in a cup to see if we were taking drugs.
That's it. That's "the cure".
I got myself sober two weeks before that "program" started,
so I give it zero credit for my recovery.
"Treatment" was just one more painful experience that I had to endure.
So the truth is, the number of people that A.A. can really claim to have cured is miniscule.
Other great quotes from Dr. Vaillant declare that A.A. produced a zero-percent improvement
in the recovery of alcoholics, while producing the highest death rate of any method for treating
alcoholism. Look here.
Have a good day now.
== Orange
Date: Thu, June 9, 2011 3:45 pm (answered 11 June 2011) Hi :-) I survived 23 yeeeeaaarrrssss in AA (with big, long periods of non-attendance) and I am finally, thoroughly, finished. I am truly impressed by your work. Are you on Facebook? Thanks for getting the truth out there. Gayle L.
Hi Gayle,
Thanks for the compliments. I'm glad to hear that you are free now.
I am "Orange Papers" on Facebook:
But you can also use the new forum:
Have a good day now.
== Orange
Date: 2011-06-10 Orange Papers just thanked me for a shout out i sent his way and I can't express in words how much that means to me. He is my hero. His website was exactly what I needed to stumble across in order to remove myself from the offensively addictive cult we call Alcoholics Anonymous. Although the doubts were already there, I pushed them to the side and told myself "not up for discussion." This was because I was told there was no other alternative and I would die if I didn't do it their way. He vocalized so many truths on the horrific epidemic that I was scared to even discuss in my own mind. It's kind of similar to walking in religion on blind faith because of fear or guilt trips. Is that really "happy, joyous, and free?" Use your higher power given brains and open your eyes. A Narcissistic addict just tricked the world into following a program that is not working. Can we say ILLUMINATI? Just another example of "New World Order." Wake up people. You are being Duped. The signs are obvious. It sounds nice. Lives do get saved, while immediately becoming enslaved. You are told that if you leave the group, you will die a terrible death. Your only option is AA. Wait a second...what about the contradictive statement i heard repetitively, that stuck in my head the most: "Take what you need, and leave the rest." Cool, thanks for the kind words and beautiful souls. I don't stick around one spot too long. I learned mad shit. I played mad games. I walked away the same way I walked in, slick and quiet as fuck. Nobody had a clue, including myself. Maybe if I was treated with more respect then I would have reconsidered my permanent exit. However, I wasn't, so therefore, I do not feel the need to be abused by a bunch of boys with the mentality of toddlers and a bunch of women with the jealously of high school girls. I hope you can understand. Have a nice day and remember that it aint my fault bitch.
Orange Papers:
== Orange Papers
Date: Thu, June 9, 2011 8:44 pm (answered 11 June 2011) Dear Mr. Orange, I have been reading through your incredibly thorough site for the better part of a month now. It has helped me immensely in my deprogramming process from the pseudo religious cult of 12 steppism. Thank you for the enormous effort that must have went into creating the Orange Papers. They are a huge help! I voluntarily attended AA meetings for about 2 1/2 years, then my attendance started to drop off drastically. I never could quite identify with the fellowship and I always felt like I was on the periphery of the program. If you weren't a regular, good little Wilsonite, you were never fully "one of them." All I ever heard besides praising the program and drunkalouges, were slogans. They have stupid little clichés for everything! Whenever I asked for clarity, or explanations, there was a ready-made slogan for a response. The way they sucker you into the whole thing is just purely deceptive. So much of my experience with AA seemed surreal. It is so contradictory. They stress to a newcomer to keep an open mind, yet the entire doctrine is closed minded, and so were most of the people I encountered at meetings. No original thought permitted! Buchman and Wilson's fake, outdated, twisted ideology removes individuality, shuns free thinking, destroys the will, closes the mind and crushes the spirit. It breaks down the detoxing, stressed and often desperate newcomer and rebuilds them in the image of the program (cult). I especially loved the historical research you have presented. I feel that it is very important to understand the roots of an organization such as AA, to gain a clear understanding of that which it was founded upon. Hmm, a psycho, a Hitler supporter and a proctologist put this thing together? That's a religion for me! Speaking of Dr. Bob: that guy was surrounded by assholes, both literally and figuratively! The fact that AA has scammed its way into the health field and the justice system, and generates billions in league with the recovery industry, all by proselytizing Wilson's alcoholic philosophy, illustrates what a scam the whole thing really is. It dawned on me; the recovery industry does not want a system that works. There is no profit in the cure. I've been to several cult gatherings, where court-ordered, people in state rehab facilities were bussed in, and so few of the ones mandated by the courts stick around much when their sentence is up. I've seen so many come and go in my time with AA. There seems to be a core of people, who have made AA their life, and then a bunch that just come and go. The whole system is a colossal failure. And the ones that have given their lives to it, behave just like you would expect any cult member to. My first sponsor was an arrogant, passive-aggressive, true believer who walked me through the first 4 steps and also recommended 90 in 90 which I did. It's so damned depressing going to those things every day and hearing people recycle the same old trite slogans, boring war stories and endless praise for the most perfect fellowship. His royal highness also suggested that I "hit my knees." I never did because I don't pray that way. In fact I disregarded much of his advice, and resisted anyone trying to run my life for me. But that didn't stop them from trying. There's so much more, I could probably pump out pages and pages. I knew I didn't need AA anymore (if I ever really did) when I went through a very tragic event, and shortly thereafter was diagnosed with a serious, incurable and progressive illness (you know, like alcoholism) and didn't need to go to a meeting to "share" nor did I have the urge to drink. I was no longer attending meetings and I started to heal the moment I made the decision to end my membership permanently. For so long, something just didn't feel right. Then, for no apparent reason, I googled: "is AA a cult"" and then the dam broke open. I found the Orange Papers and I've been pouring through them ever since. They are such a tremendous help to someone who was in my position and I also realized I'm not alone. Thank you again!
Hello Doug,
Thank you for the letter and the compliments, and I'm glad to hear that your mind is alive and free.
And congratulations on your sobriety too.
One line really resonated for me: "They don't want a cure because there is no profit in a cure."
Yes. That is a real serious problem with our whole medical system. Medicines that merely treat, but do not
cure, a disease, are much more profitable than ones that cure. When cured, the patient doesn't
buy any more medicine. But if the pharmaceutical companies can get people habituated to taking
an endless stream of pills that don't ever quite cure,
then they have a customer for life. So what are the pharmaceutical companies pushing?
Things like Viagra, Boneva, and cholestrol-lowering drugs, and blood-pressure medications,
and arthritis medications, and diet pills — anything that you have to take for the rest of your life.
We are actually heading for a bad medical crisis because the germs are growing resistant to all
of our antibiotics, and the pharmaceutical companies are not developing new antibiotics. There is
no money in it. Not like the money from Viagra and Levitra and Cialis.
We really should have some government labs develop new antibiotics fast, but the Republicans won't
tolerate "socialized medicine" where the government "goes into competition with private enterprise".
The government laboratories won't actually be in competition with the
pharmaceutical companies, not when those corporations
refuse to make new antibiotics. But the Republicans would rather let our children die from flesh-eating
bacteria than let "big government" get into medicine.
Oh well, have a good day anyway.
== Orange
Date: Fri, June 10, 2011 2:07 pm (answered 11 June 2011) A quick hello. Thank you for accepting my friend request. Your writing via the Orange Papers site has been very educational, and at the risk of being dramatic, inspiring. I was caught up in the nightmare of the 12 steps off and on for many years. I have watched AA dogma kill a friend. I can't prove it, but nevertheless she is dead. I refuse to attend meetings. I am sober and still alive. I also quit smoking a few years ago. I no longer smoke nor ingest alcohol. Abstinence is sobriety, period. That aside for the time being. although I am a Canadian existing out here on the great prairie, I find many of our political and personal ideas mesh. We do have much in common, and as is normal we differ in some respects. I enjoy creative writing immensely, and have found a place for it in my life and day to day routine. Perhaps someday I will be published, what a great day that would be. But writing is in itself a reward. It is very therapeutic for me. I am an avid reader and enjoy your writing. How much writing do you do beyond the 'Papers'? I have a hell of a time keeping anything I write 'short'. I will end it on this note; You are a great writer and an intelligent man. I admire your tenacity and writing skill, you have a distinct writing voice. Your voice speaks the truth and anybody with half a brain will hear it. It has been a pleasure introducing myself. I look forward to the coming days as they may arrive. Best Regards; Darren
Date: Fri, June 10, 2011 3:33 pm Hi Orange, ""Others can help and support you...but in the end it is ONLY you that can save yourself. You have the fantastic gift of free will, along with that gift comes ultimate responsibility. You are accountable for the good and bad choices you make. Accept the consequences for the bad, but also claim the credit and praise for the good. Have a great day my friends.""
Hello Darren,
Thanks for the compliments, and you have a good weekend too.
Oh, and I love that last paragraph. That says it all.
== Orange
Date: Fri, June 10, 2011 4:26 pm (answered 11 June 2011) Dear Orange, I hope you are well. It has been over four months since I stopped going to AA and life is better than ever. I am the one responsible for not drinking and that is a very empowering act. yesterday I had coffee with a stepper who said: "We are worried about you and want you to come back. Some people heard that you called AA a cult." I replied: "only a cult would care if I was a member or not." Then the stepper told me stories of a meeting he attended where a newcomer made a racist comment to him which appalled me (most likely the newcomer was a court ordered attendee who was acting out of defiance). I replied that "Why did you not leave or any one defend you, or call out the newcomer for intolerant behavior?" And the stepper could only make the excuse that the newcomer came first and was a sick person. My response was that AA meetings are full of toxic people who can not possibly help you. So far I can report that I consider my problems were behavioral, and for that there are therapies and medical treatment which work if one applies themselves. it is very important to stay away from meetings because sick people can not help sick people get better. So I have this question: if alcoholism is a disease then how did I stop without any therapy, drug, or other medical intervention? And since I have stopped,on my own what happened to the "disease"? Real diseases don't just disappear on their own. well take care and keep up the good work.
Hi Mike,
Thanks for the letter. You've got it. I don't need to tell you anything.
So have a good day and a good life now.
== Orange
[The story of Carmen continues here.]
Date: May 23 at 6:19p (answered 11 June 2011) I wanted to thank you for saving my life. you have no idea the torment I endured 12 years in and out of that program. I have seen the worst of the worst. It wasn't till I read your website, that I was finally free. But I never stop fighting. I always fight those who try to go to 12 step rehabs or send their families there. Not knowing what they get into. Anyway, thank you for saving my life.
Hi. I just found your letters. Honestly, you saved your own
life. But if I was able to help in some small way, then great.
So have a good day now.
== Orange
Date: Sat, June 11, 2011 1:07 pm (answered 12 June 2011) Hoping you're able to see videos now:
Thursday, June 9, 2011 11:40am PDT http://www.grindtv.com/outdoor/blog/27575/flock+of+geese+shows+that+birds+are+amazing+surfers+too/
Hello Ray,
Thanks for the link. Yes, videos are working at the moment, so I saw that. What nobody mentioned was
that the geese were a family with half a dozen children. Look closely, and you will see that several of
them are small. Nevertheless, they handled the river quite well.
Something that took me a while to get used to was just how drown-proof little goslings really are.
You would think those cute little fluff-balls would be at the mercy of the river. Nope, they just ride it.
They are water birds, and they are totally at home on the water.
They've been doing it for about the last million years.
Have a good day now.
== Orange
Last updated 14 August 2013. |
