RE: Rick Ross wrote:
'You failed again to meet the three simple criteria Lifton uses to define a "cult."'

With all due respect and admiration for Dr. Robert J. Lifton, that is far too simplistic of a definition of a cult There is much more to a cult than just three characteristics.

1. AA has never had a totalitarian leader like L. Ron Hubbard, Jim Jones or Rev. Moon. Bill Wilson did not occupy such a position and no one ever has.

I beg to differ. Bill Wilson was the worshipped guru who exiled the dissenters to an alcoholic death. Both his second book, "Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions", and the "Big Book" tell stories of ostracizing the nonbelievers and praying that they would relapse, and then abandoning them to their deaths when they did relapse. Bill Wilson did not tolerate dissent or anyone criticizing him.
http://www.orange-papers.info/orange-religious_faith.html#refusenik

Bill Wilson also stole all of the A.A. money and the copyright of the Big Book, and set himself up with a life of comfort, and never worked a straight job again. And then he stole all of the credit and the glory, while telling everyone else to be anonymous and quit being so selfish, and to work unselfishly with no thought of the profit motive. And then Bill used the pretty women who came to A.A. as his stable of mistresses, and used the A.A. headquarters to give them employment.
http://www.orange-papers.info/orange-bigbook.html
http://www.orange-papers.info/orange-otherwomen.html

Then he declared that he wasn't really the leader. To create an appearance of noble self-sacrifice, he signed over leadership of A.A. to a Board of Trustees, whom he thought would rubber-stamp his dictates. He was wrong. They voted their consciences. So then Bill Wilson constantly fought with the Trustees whenever they wouldn't do what he wished, like pay his mistresses for him.
http://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters26.html#battle_trustees

Dr. Bob was such a crazy nutcase that he demanded that the alcoholics whom he hospitalized in Akron had to get out of bed and "surrender to God" on their knees in front of him before they could go to their first A.A. meeting.
http://www.orange-papers.info/orange-cult_a1.html#ca_surrender2cult

Then Dr. Bob gave his 17-year-old daughter to a constantly relapsing 31-year-old alcoholic, Ernie Galbraith, A.A. number four, in order to break up her romance with a high-school boyfriend.
http://www.orange-papers.info/orange-cult_a4.html#Galbraith

To this day, Bill Wilson and Dr. Bob are considered geniuses and prophets, and their words in the Big Book are sacred scriptures, not to be updated, no matter what new things we learn about alcoholism and recovery.

The whole idea that a cult has to have one totalitarian leader is wrong. There may be such a leader, and usually is, but not always. Back in 1971, I got involved with a crazy cult called "Nichiren Shoshu Buddhism", aka "Soka Gakai". They didn't have any totalitarian leader. In fact, you couldn't even figure out who the top leaders were. There was a local priest who was the leader of the local church, and there was his assistant, and a few other "elders", so there was a clear heirarchy. But above them, it was all a mystery. There were some almost-unmentioned priests in Tokyo who headed the whole thing and lived a comfortable life.

But it was still a crazy cult. They believed that if they just chanted to a printed scroll for whatever they wanted, that they would get it. Every meeting included testimonials of people who just got their wishes granted by the "Gohonzon". And there were all of the usual demands that you devote your whole life to chanting, and recruit more members, and when we get 1/3 of the whole world chanting our special chant, we will have world peace. Don't think; don't try to understand it; just chant.

Oh, and they didn't want your money either. Just your mind and your life.
http://www.orange-papers.info/orange-cult_q0.html#Gohonzon

Likewise, ISKCON, The International Society for Krishna Consciousness, popularly known as the "Hari Krishnas", is another cult that lost its leader. Swami Prabhupada was a real creep, but what came next was just as bad. When Swami Prabhupada died, the highest-ranking eleven junior gurus decided to divide up the world between themselves. They declared themselves the "Zone Gurus", and each got a piece of the world to run, with particular attention being paid to who got the most lucrative countries. The USA was such a rich market that it was divided up into many little pieces so that each of the Zone Gurus got a piece of the action. Like one got part of the USA, and England. Another got part of the USA, and Australia, and so on.

So ISKCON was governed by a Governing Board which consisted of those Zone Gurus. There was no one single dictatorial leader any more.

What happened was one of the Zone Gurus got busy dealing heroin, and made his money that way. Another ordered a critic murdered. The hit was carried out. The guy was killed for criticizing the behavior of the Zone Gurus. Other Zone Gurus were just generally objectionable. A few were actually okay people who objected to the immorality of the others, but they were outvoted for a long time.

If a cult simply MUST have one "totalitarian leader", then by that logic, ISKCON stopped being a cult the minute that Prabhupada died. But ISKCON didn't stop being a crazy cult.

2. Indoctrination not "thought reform" (read the link previously posted) is what AA does, Singer makes the distinctions.

The citations of Lifton and Singer are, of course, the propaganda and debating trick of "Appeal to Authorities". But that's okay. I like those two people, and their work on cult psychology.

I have to disagree with Ms. Singer, may she rest in peace. She was a wonderful and perceptive woman, but she was wrong about A.A.. I guess she was never a member of A.A., so she didn't have a lot of experience with it. She didn't know what really goes on in there.

Alcoholics Anonymous practices both indoctrination and "thought reform" as described by Lifton. They openly do all 8 of Lifton's thought-reform practices.

Speaking of which, how many A.A. meetings have you gone to?
Have you read the "Big Book", Alcoholics Anonymous?
How much experience do you have with A.A. and N.A., really?
Where are you getting your ideas about what A.A. actually is?

Or are you actually a member of Alcoholics Anonymous, and that is why you are so quick to dismiss any criticism of Alcoholics Anonymous as "not based on facts"?

Where are you getting your "facts"?

I have explained where I got mine. Read the introduction, where I described how I got shoved into 12-Step treatment, and a zillion A.A. and N.A. meetings, by a child-molesting Internet pornographer who was also a 12-Step true believer.
http://www.orange-papers.info/orange-intro.html

And then I have spent the following 6 years studying both the 12-Step cults, A.A., N.A., ACOA, Al-Anon, etc., and other cults.

Speaking of which, it seems that we have the same credentials — none, other than personal experience and years of studying cults. You were quick to declare that I am not an expert on cults. Are you? Where did you get your expertise?

3. Economic, sexual, and other exploitation of group members by the leader and the ruling coterie.

*** "by the leader and the ruling coterie"?

Again, this is a distinction without a difference. A.A. pretends to be free, and yet the "recovery industry" is a $6.8 billion per year racket, just in the USA, and 93% of the treatment centers in the USA sell 12-Step quackery at very high prices, easily $10,000 to $40,000 for a 28-day session of indoctrination in the 12 Step religion. The treatment centers give employment and pulpits to the A.A. recruiters. The A.A. members return the favor by sending more people to 12-Step "treatment".

And people are actually sentenced to that organization.

And yes, there is sexual exploitation. You are ignoring and minimizing the reports of rape and 13th-Stepping and other exploitation and abuse, and even killings.
You can't dismiss all of the reports as merely isolated incidents.
By that logic, Jim Jones' koolaid party was just one isolated incident.
Scientology's killing of a woman in Clearwater, Florida was just an isolated incident.

*             orange@orange-papers.info        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
** If alcoholism is really a disease, then A.A. sponsors are
** guilty of practicing medicine without a license. They are
** also guilty of treating a life-threatening illness without
** having any medical education or training.  They have never
** gone to medical school, and never done an internship or
** residency, and yet they presume to be qualified to make
** life-or-death decisions in the patients' treatment. That
** is what you call quackery.

Mr. Orange,

> > Orange,
> >
> > Sorry to be bombarding you with emails of late


On 11/09/06, Orange  wrote:
> Hey, don't feel bad. I'll get my revenge by bombarding
> you in return. :-)
>
> I just noticed that Rick Ross deleted my previous big
> long post where I questioned his credentials and his
> membership in A.A.. I guess I will have to post it
> to my own web site.
>
> The file is attached.
> Have a good day.
>
> —
> *          orange@orange-papers.info       *
> *      AA and Recovery Cult Debunking     *
> *      http://www.orange-papers.info/      *
> ** "Now I know what it's like to be high on life.
> ** It isn't as good, but my driving has improved."
> ** == Nina, on "Just Shoot Me", 13 Jan 2006.

From: "James G"
Subject: Re: Rick Ross
Date: Mon, September 11, 2006 12:02 pm

Orange,

I told him he had killed the thread and told him he had a responsibility to let people see it through — tried to get all legal with him because he seems to think that the thread is alive although he is not posting what people say.

I think I am going to look into this further. Apparently there is a RIck Ross institution!! My word, God help us all, if there is one!!

Can I post your message on my site too?

J a m e s G

Sure, the more the merrier.

You are also welcome to echo my suspicions about him being a Stepper because of the way he argues with Stepper propaganda tricks — just be sure to say that "I suspect", and "I think", and "In my opinion, he might be"... Legally, that is not slander or libel because you are honestly describing your own thoughts. Cute trick, huh?

== Orange

Orange,

Thought you'd like to see this:

The following was written and APPROVED on the Cult Education Forum:

My response:

No recognized cult expert that I know of has ever compared AA to Lifton per the criteria you have used regarding thought reform (including Lifton) or cult formation, and concluded that AA is a "cult" or that it somehow "brainwashes" people, but you are entitled to your opinion.
===========================================

Apparently the moderator has not read the pioneering work of Dr. Edgar H. Schein.

There were three pioneering experts in the field of "brainwashing", or "coercive thought reform" — Dr. Robert Jay Lifton, Prof. Margaret Thaler Singer, and Dr. Edgar H. Schein. See this page for a summary of their various approaches to the subject:
http://www.orange-papers.info/orange-cultinfo.html

Here is Edgar Schein's book on brainwashing:

Coercive Persuasion: A Socio-psychological Analysis of the "Brainwashing" of American Civilian Prisoners by the Chinese Communists, by Edgar H. Schein, with Inge Schneier and Curtis H. Barker
W.W. Norton, New York, 1961.
LC: BF633
LCCN: 61-7483
Dewey: 131.333

In some ways this book complements Edward Hunter's book "Brainwashing, From Pavlov to Powers", because this book concentrates its attention on American civilians who happened to be in China when Mao took over, and were arrested by Mao's forces and subjected to "thought reform" in prison.

The author states (p.21) that he checked his hypotheses with others like Lifton and Barnett, and drew heavily from Hunter, so obviously that small group of pioneers were in communication with each other, trading ideas and information.

This book and the books by Edward Hunter and Robert Jay Lifton ("Thought Reform and the Psychology of Totalism: A Study of 'Brainwashing' in China") are the classics of the field, and are simply must reading for students of brainwashing and mind-control programs.

Schein saw "thought reform" programs as working in stages:
1. Unfreezing — Make the subject lose his previous identity. Shatter his self-confidence and belief in himself, his moral standards, and his previous philosophy.
2. Changing — Change the subject into whatever is desired.
3. Refreezing — Make the subject lock in the changes by solidifying his new personality.

Schein wrote:
-------------------------------
The bases for being judged guilty which he [the victim] must come to appreciate are the following:
1. Guilt by Association.
2. Guilt by Intention.
3. Guilt for Incorrect Attitudes.
4. Guilt for Incorrect Thoughts.
5. Guilt for Having Knowledge.
6. Guilt for Harmful Action.
7. Guilt for Failure to Act.
8. Guilt for Having a Characteristic Personal Fault or Faults.
9. Guilt for Having Dangerous Social Origins.
--------------------------------
— pages 141-143.

The confession sessions of Alcoholics Anonymous Steps 4 and 5 do that job, and so does the "sharing" in A.A. meetings.

Even back in 1960, Edgar Schein saw that Alcoholics Anonymous was a mind-control or thought-reform program. While he was describing the workings of Chinese Communist brainwashing programs, Schein also wrote:

--------------------------------------
Certain organizations like Alcoholics Anonymous (AA) do not deliberately unfreeze an individual but refuse to take anyone under their care who is not already unfrozen. Thus a person does not become eligible for care by AA unless he has really become desperate, is dissatisfied with himself, and is prepared to turn his fate over to some greater power.
— page 272.

The interesting question arises then, in what way are groups in fact used in the unfreezing of individuals in the parallel types of institutions which we have discussed? ... In AA the small discussion group plays a key therapeutic role; in mental hospitals there has been an increasing reliance on therapy groups, work groups of various sorts, and/or patient self-government groups, where in each case the assumption is made explicitly or implicitly that for the new group member the membership experience will produce influence of a kind desired by the institution; in educational workshops, like those concentrating on human relations training, the group experience is considered the key educational experience...
— page 274.

But what of those institutions which are entered voluntarily and from which the individual may withdraw voluntarily — educational institutions, religious orders, AA, psychoanalysis, revival meetings, fraternities, and so on? We believe that in such institutions the social pressures which can be generated can be as coercive as the physical constraints previously described. Not only is voluntary withdrawal generally defined as failure, but the act of entry into an institution may constitute a more or less irrevocable commitment in that the individual often cuts himself off from alternate paths when he makes his decision. In addition to these two forces there is acting perhaps an even more powerful one, the confirmation by fellow group members and by "back home" significant others of the emerging institutional identity. The young man who has entered a religious order and wishes after half a year to leave it will have a difficult time psychologically if he is considered by his peers and teachers to be a good student, if his parents have their hearts set on his becoming a priest, if his friends have already abandoned his old identity in their own eyes and treat him only in terms of his new one, and if his termination is defined by all concerned as an act of moral weakness. Obviously these pressures are not always as strong as we have implied, and obviously people do leave institutions like religious orders, but equally obviously it generally requires an act of great courage to do so. Such courage is not too dissimilar to the courage required to resist the pressures of thought reform.
— pages 275-276.
-----------------------------------------

Schein clearly saw that "voluntary" organizations like Alcoholics Anonymous (or Scientology, or the Moonies) are not entirely voluntary, and that quitting them can be very difficult, sometimes nearly impossible.

And when people are sentenced to A.A., and the choice is either A.A. or jail, then there is no freedom to quit.

You may cite Schein for the purpose of your Web site, but Schein hasn't endorsed or supported your conclusions.
----------------------

Oh come on! Get real. You are quibbling over phrases. Schein clearly described how A.A. does brainwashing, and you are saying, "But he didn't call A.A. a cult."

No, he just said that A.A. brainwashes its victims and makes it extremely difficult for them to leave the organization. What do you call that, a friendly social club?

By the way, what happened to my previous post where I asked about your credentials and membership in Alcoholics Anonymous?

Did you chose to censor that? Should I post that response on my web site?

*          orange@orange-papers.info       *
*      AA and Recovery Cult Debunking     *
*      http://www.orange-papers.info/      *
**  An A.A. true believer (Craig S.) babbled:
**  > How many times to I have to explain it to you. Alcohol
**  > is but a symptom, our bottles are but a symbol.
**  No, alcohol is a poisonous clear hydrocarbon solvent
**  that produces intoxication if swallowed in quantity.
**  Drinking alcohol is the cause of alcoholism.
**  There is no other "primary cause" of alcoholism.

Anyone can be a self proclaimed "expert". Are there any "experts" on cults? What is the criteria for being an expert besides claiming that you are one and that your detractors are not? I would say I am as much an expert on AA as anyone from being involved in it and studying it objectively. Usually so called cult experts know almost nothing about AA.

AA is an obvious cult with many parallels to other usually recognized cults such as scientology including thought control, anti-intellectualism, abuse of members especially newcomers, breaking down of ego and building it back in their own image. They even admit blatantly that they believe in and practice "ego deflation". Does that sound like a friendly neighborhood self help group? I will stop my post for now and read the replies. (assuming I dont get censored).

Are there any "experts" on cults? What is the criteria for being an expert besides claiming that you are one and that your detractors are not?

----- Original Message -----
From: Emma
To: info@rickross.com
Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 11:49 AM
Subject: research

Dear Mr Ross

i'm intrigued and concerned as to your reticence to fully explore the possibility of AA being a cult, is there any affiliation on your behalf with twleve step recovery that prevents you from exploring the possibility that it is? If your research is restricted to family members of exaa members approaching you then i'm afraid that you're restricting your research, how about the hundreds of people who have left this cult who want people to know how destructive and obsolete aa is for the thousands of people who don't wish to adopt a set dogma that is destructive and instills lack of trust with the self and dependence upon God in order to remain sober? How can you possibly come to the conclusion that the response to your forum from ex-aa members is contrived? Believe me there are a lot of ex-aa members around and there's a very serious issue about the phobias that aa instills in people. I honestly believe it would be in your interest to take a more open-minded view of this and not be so deeply suspicious, after all we're regular people getting on with our lives and staying sober.

Kind regards

Emma

-----Original Message-----
Sent: 29 September 2006 18:03
To: Emma
Subject: Re: research

I have no personal or professional connection in any way, shape or form with any 12-step program.

Over the past 25 years I have not received complaints would justify any "cult" label being applied to AA.

At times there have been splinter groups that broke away from 12-step programs that became "cults" or "cult-like," but this was the result of action typically taken by a charismatic leader not AA.

This has been discussed over and over again on the message board.

We seem to disagree, but you may believe whatever you want.

Rick Ross
www.rickross.com

-----Original Message-----
From: Emma
Sent: 02 October 2006 13:10
To: 'RICK ROSS'
Subject: RE: research

Why do you limit your research to complaints from families (though my family and friends were concerned there concerns were limited because of their lack of knowledge of the dogma of AA and the fact that I didn't live in a commune)Were it not for my partner leaving aa I would never have left for fear that I would go insane and die a horiible death (no seriously, if you had at least familiarised yourself with the text of aa and listened to ex-members, the knowledge that AA instills beliefs like this would become apparent to you). If someone were to come up to you and say they wanted to leave an organisation but feared they would die or go insane because that was what they had been told, would you not be in the least bit curious that the organisation they were involved in was dodgy?

I know when I first left I couldn't approach a cult expert because of their fees but I did buy steve hassans book and was concerned and yet amazed at how AA fits perfectly into the bite model. I even told two close friends and my parents the AA dogma and they were appalled.

I can only presume that for you to go look into the evidence against AA would probably result in a serious lawsuit and indeed you are quite helpless in this case, and the chances of you winning a lawsuit would fall on their head when it arose you have no paper qualifications.

At least Steve Hassan has the balls to mention AA on his website. Also, how can you censor James G's and orange's questioning posts (just did some research in my lunch break) and then condone a post that says anti-aa people are evil! You are one guy with an agenda, and it seems you are not the right person to deal with an issue of this magnitude.

-----Original Message-----
Sent: 02 October 2006 12:19
To: Emma
Subject: Re: research

I don't look into groups upon request.

If there is some controversy regarding a particular group the press (Associated Press, Reuters, major metropolitan newspapers) pick up on it.

People then send me links and/or share links to breaking newspaper or wire service stories at www.cultnews.net

I recognize the effort of some people to call AA a "cult" and organize anti-AA sites on the Internet.

However, I have received no significant complaints from families over the years (since 1983) about AA.

I think this subject has been exhausted at the message board and anyone interested can read those threads.

I don't see AA as a "cult" and/or relevant to my work.

Rick Ross
www.rickross.com

----- Original Message -----
From: "Emma"
To: "RICK ROSS" <rickross@rickross.com]
Sent: Monday, October 02, 2006 4:16 AM
Subject: RE: research

Dear Mr Ross

Thank you for replying to my message.

It would seem that you have recently become aware of many complaints of the cult-like nature of AA through the message board alone, perhaps now you will look into it further, seeing as you have no affiliation. Although I am one of the less vocal dissenters of AA, I am nonetheless very concerned with its message and the negative impact it's having on people who only want sobriety. I am more than happy to give you any information on my 5 years experience in AA (I did all the steps and was a model stepper) should you be interested.

I just think that it's important for ex-aa members to have some official recognoition of the destructiveness that aa dogma can have on people's minds, when leaving,

Kind regards

Emma

A. Orange:

Congratulations!

You have won a Flaming Website Award!

See http://www.rickross.com/flamingwebsites.html

You won two out of a possible four flames award level.

Feel free to stop by and grab your badge of honor.

See http://www.rickross.com/graphics/2flame.html

Rick Ross
www.rickross.com

Ah yes, Hello Rick.
It would be fun to debate you sometime in a neutral forum where you cannot censor your opponents' letters.
Have a good day.
== Orange

*             orange@orange-papers.info        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
** "Now I know what it's like to be high on life.
** It isn't as good, but my driving has improved."
** == Nina, on "Just Shoot Me", 13 Jan 2006.

Date: Mon, February 5, 2007 11:52 am
From: "RICK ROSS" <rickross@rickross.com>
Subject: Re: Flaming Websites Award

Whatever "debate" arguments you had were made by you and others urged to "troll" the message board.

And now you have an award too.

Congratulations.

Rick Ross
www.rickross.com

Actually, no, I did not get to state my case.
You cut me off after just a few postings.
What other people may have said before I came along has nothing to do with me, and they do not speak for me.

Nor did they say all of what I would have said.

If you want to really honestly discuss the cultish characterists of Alcoholics Anonymous, we can do so on my web site, and I promise not to censor your letters or cut you off.

Have a good day.
== Orange

Date: Mon, February 5, 2007 2:07 pm
From: "RICK ROSS" <rickross@rickross.com>
Subject: Re: Flaming Websites Award

No thanks.

Not relevant to my work.

Rick Ross
www.rickross.com

1. http://www.rickross.com/reference/general/general915.html
   == Critics Say Washington AA Chapter Is Cultlike
   Recovering alcoholics say a Washington, D.C., group has hijacked the 12-step program's name.
   Newsweek Magazine/May 7, 2007
   By Nick Summers
   

2. http://www.rickross.com/reference/general/general923.html
   == Former Midtown AA Members Claim Cult-Like Behavior

And there are several old LOCKED threads where people tried to talk about Alcoholics Anonymous being unscientific and cultish. "Locked" means that you cannot post comments or additions to them.

1. http://forum.rickross.com/viewtopic.php?t=2635&sid;=e4b77c29b1da002d491d73ae5e437607
   == Question for Alcoholics Anonymous experts.

2. http://forum.rickross.com/viewtopic.php?t=4079&sid;=83311f7e99348dc71d85b68afb28254e
   == Alcoholics Anonymous Court Ordered (1st Tradition)

3. http://forum.rickross.com/viewtopic.php?t=274&sid;=83311f7e99348dc71d85b68afb28254e
   == Alcholics Anonymous should be regarded as a cult.

4. http://forum.rickross.com/viewtopic.php?t=2691&sid;=83311f7e99348dc71d85b68afb28254e
   == AA, the mental health community, and the courts

5. http://forum.rickross.com/viewtopic.php?t=2611&sid;=83311f7e99348dc71d85b68afb28254e
   == Alcoholics Anonymous - Savage Therapy